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Author Topic: In which Sarah king's courts a golem  (Read 11363 times)

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ehunt

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In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« on: January 03, 2012, 12:08:19 am »
+2

Sarah is behind by just one point in a colony game, two piles are empty, and there's only one duchy left. This is good news for Sarah, because it's the beginning of her turn, and her hand (thanks to some Council Rooms) is

Platinum Platinum Platinum Platinum Platinum Platinum King's Court Golem.

There are just two cards in Sarah's deck, and no cards in her discard pile. Out of habit, she king's courts the golem. Some stuff happens, none of which requires anybody to make any choices. Now it's her buy phase, and no matter what she buys, the game will be over and she loses. What were the two cards? 
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GendoIkari

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2012, 12:58:15 am »
0

Golem found 2 Swindlers. First one hit Peddler, and Peddlers were gone so she had to give a Province. Second one found Colony, making her give the last Colony. Opponent is now up by 7, and game will end. She can buy Province but it's not enough. Or, maybe she just gave opponent last Province also!
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DrHades

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2012, 01:11:22 am »
0

I think the solution would have something to do with Transmute, but Transmute-Transmute would put Sarah to buying power 0 and give her 6 Transmutes - that means there still can be 2 in the pile, so it is not 100% that the game will end.
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GendoIkari

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2012, 01:23:20 am »
0


I think the solution would have something to do with Transmute, but Transmute-Transmute would put Sarah to buying power 0 and give her 6 Transmutes - that means there still can be 2 in the pile, so it is not 100% that the game will end.
No, because the Transmutes would only get played once each.
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DrHades

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #4 on: January 03, 2012, 01:35:42 am »
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I think the solution would have something to do with Transmute, but Transmute-Transmute would put Sarah to buying power 0 and give her 6 Transmutes - that means there still can be 2 in the pile, so it is not 100% that the game will end.
No, because the Transmutes would only get played once each.
That is actoually not true! Golem will dig for actions for the first time. Find 2 Transmutes. Play them. Trash 2 Platinumes, gain 2 Transmutes. Golem will dig for actions for the second time. Find 2 Transmutes. Play them. Trash 2 Platinumes, gain 2 Transmutes. Golem will dig for actions for the third time. Find 2 Transmutes. Play them. Trash 2 Platinumes, gain 2 Transmutes.
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GendoIkari

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #5 on: January 03, 2012, 01:42:12 am »
0


I think the solution would have something to do with Transmute, but Transmute-Transmute would put Sarah to buying power 0 and give her 6 Transmutes - that means there still can be 2 in the pile, so it is not 100% that the game will end.
No, because the Transmutes would only get played once each.
That is actoually not true! Golem will dig for actions for the first time. Find 2 Transmutes. Play them. Trash 2 Platinumes, gain 2 Transmutes. Golem will dig for actions for the second time. Find 2 Transmutes. Play them. Trash 2 Platinumes, gain 2 Transmutes. Golem will dig for actions for the third time. Find 2 Transmutes. Play them. Trash 2 Platinumes, gain 2 Transmutes.
My bad! Forgot that the Transmutes will also get you new Transmutes for the Platinum. If the the board state us such that there are between 4 and 6 Transmutes left, your solution works.  :)
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Titandrake

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #6 on: January 03, 2012, 01:45:45 am »
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I suspect that solution is the only solution. In order to have there be no choices, the actions must be the same. No card forcibly removes 3 cards from the hand in one play, so the action must gain other actions to play. And in order for there to be no choice in what to gain, the action gained must be specified by the played card. I think Transmute is the only action that does that...
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Mean Mr Mustard

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #7 on: January 03, 2012, 02:15:22 am »
0

Tactician/Swindler?
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DStu

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #8 on: January 03, 2012, 02:19:45 am »
0

Tactician/Swindler?

... has a decision on which to play first.
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #9 on: January 03, 2012, 03:53:54 am »
0

What I want to know is how the game got to this state in the first place!
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GendoIkari

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #10 on: January 03, 2012, 09:36:14 am »
0

I suspect that solution is the only solution. In order to have there be no choices, the actions must be the same. No card forcibly removes 3 cards from the hand in one play, so the action must gain other actions to play. And in order for there to be no choice in what to gain, the action gained must be specified by the played card. I think Transmute is the only action that does that...

I'm pretty sure my solution works as well, although I'm guessing it's not the one ehunt was thinking of, because the King's Court and the contents of Sarah's hand make no difference to my solution.
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DsnowMan

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #11 on: January 03, 2012, 10:51:45 am »
0

What I want to know is how the game got to this state in the first place!

King's Court and Island has a funny way of making cards disappear from your deck
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GendoIkari

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #12 on: January 03, 2012, 10:58:32 am »
0

What I want to know is how the game got to this state in the first place!

King's Court and Island has a funny way of making cards disappear from your deck

Indeed. And since my solution requires 7 Colonies to have been bought already, while Sarah is only 1 point behind, KC + Island must have been used a lot!
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Thisisnotasmile

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2012, 11:00:08 am »
0

Either that or Bishop is involved.
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guided

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #14 on: January 03, 2012, 11:57:17 am »
0

Both solutions (Swindler when it drains the last Province and last Colony, Transmute when it drains the Transmute pile) appear to be correct, though the latter is of course a little more satisfyingly clever and seems closer to what must have been intended given the original hand. Am I missing something?
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GendoIkari

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #15 on: January 03, 2012, 12:04:46 pm »
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Both solutions (Swindler when it drains the last Province and last Colony, Transmute when it drains the Transmute pile) appear to be correct, though the latter is of course a little more satisfyingly clever and seems closer to what must have been intended given the original hand. Am I missing something?

Agreed. My solution, while it works, isn't nearly as clever. It probably came to my mind because twice recently I played a Swindler near the end only to have it hit Province and remove the final Province from the pile! >:(
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ycz6

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #16 on: January 03, 2012, 01:09:40 pm »
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I think I can actually do it with only one Action, in a 2-player game:

The Action is a Swindler, which hits the opponent's Colony, emptying the Colony pile. There are 6 Embargo tokens on Province, 3 on Duchy, and 1 on Estate.
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Davio

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #17 on: January 03, 2012, 01:29:37 pm »
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Some rule-nitpicking here, but I assume Sarah isn't Possessed?
If she is, it would still be her turn (says so in the rules), but her turn is just played out by another player.

I don't like solutions that make extra assumptions (which aren't mentioned in the OP), but it seems the only way.

Hell, it could even be
1 Swindler: Swindling the opponent's $5 action card into a Duchy (action card stack was empty, no other $5's around) and his 8 Silk Roads hit another VP target, so this gains him 8 + 3 = 11 VP. Since Sarah was already 1 point behind, the best she can do with her 1 Buy is buying a Colony for "just" 10 VP, still 2 VP short of a win/tie.
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GendoIkari

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #18 on: January 03, 2012, 01:36:05 pm »
0

Some rule-nitpicking here, but I assume Sarah isn't Possessed?
If she is, it would still be her turn (says so in the rules), but her turn is just played out by another player.

I don't like solutions that make extra assumptions (which aren't mentioned in the OP), but it seems the only way.

Hell, it could even be
1 Swindler: Swindling the opponent's $5 action card into a Duchy (action card stack was empty, no other $5's around) and his 8 Silk Roads hit another VP target, so this gains him 8 + 3 = 11 VP. Since Sarah was already 1 point behind, the best she can do with her 1 Buy is buying a Colony for "just" 10 VP, still 2 VP short of a win/tie.

I thought of Possession right away, but the puzzle does say that she played the King's Court "out of habit." This means that she's the one who chose to play it.
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Captain_Frisk

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #19 on: January 03, 2012, 02:18:06 pm »
+1


The first solution I came up with does technically require a choice, but it isn't meaningful, so it didn't bother me.

The 2 cards are swindler, tactician. 

Tactician will eat all of those lovely platinums, and the swindler hits an opponents tactician - which is the only other $5 card, which is empty, as are council rooms (for whatever reason).  This forces the opponent to gain the final duchy, and the best that Sarah can buy is an estate.

Bonus points if the swindler destroyed a duchy (with tactician and council room piles empty), but Sarah still lost because she bought the estate to tie, but lost on turns because she is P1

A twist on Gendo's solution:
- double swindler hits double peddler with 2 provinces and 0 peddlers remaining, giving her opponent a 17 point lead and ending the game - and even buying a $34 colony doesn't fix it.

My favorite solution is the embargo one.

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GendoIkari

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #20 on: January 03, 2012, 03:36:22 pm »
0


The first solution I came up with does technically require a choice, but it isn't meaningful, so it didn't bother me.

The 2 cards are swindler, tactician. 

Tactician will eat all of those lovely platinums, and the swindler hits an opponents tactician - which is the only other $5 card, which is empty, as are council rooms (for whatever reason).  This forces the opponent to gain the final duchy, and the best that Sarah can buy is an estate.

Bonus points if the swindler destroyed a duchy (with tactician and council room piles empty), but Sarah still lost because she bought the estate to tie, but lost on turns because she is P1

A twist on Gendo's solution:
- double swindler hits double peddler with 2 provinces and 0 peddlers remaining, giving her opponent a 17 point lead and ending the game - and even buying a $34 colony doesn't fix it.

My favorite solution is the embargo one.



The Embargo solution has quite a few variants I think... You still need a Swindler or a Transmute, because those are the only things that can force the game to end.* Anyway, Swindler could hit just about any card at all, so long as the only legal replacement is the last card of a pile, it doesn't have to give the opponent points. Then, so long as there are 10 Embargo tokens on Colony, 8 on Province, 5 on Duchy, and 1 on Estate (quite possible with KC + Embargo!!), then Sarah is unable to buy anything that will net her any points, and she still loses by 1!

* I'm not counting Expand or Remodel, because although those could force the game to end, because they would allow Sarah to choose a Province or a Colony and win.
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ehunt

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #21 on: January 04, 2012, 01:42:01 am »
+1

Thanks for thinking about this everyone! I had the transmute solution in mind, but of course the puzzle isn't "guess what I have on my mind" and I have enjoyed the alternate solutions. Text I should have added (but didn't think of until today!):
Ironically, if she had just played the golem without the King's Court, she could have won the game with a better score than merely buying the last duchy would have provided.
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GendoIkari

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #22 on: January 04, 2012, 09:55:13 am »
0

Thanks for thinking about this everyone! I had the transmute solution in mind, but of course the puzzle isn't "guess what I have on my mind" and I have enjoyed the alternate solutions. Text I should have added (but didn't think of until today!):
Ironically, if she had just played the golem without the King's Court, she could have won the game with a better score than merely buying the last duchy would have provided.

I like the extra line... I think it makes it so that your solution is the only solution!
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dghunter79

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #23 on: January 04, 2012, 03:57:46 pm »
0


I thought of Possession right away, but the puzzle does say that she played the King's Court "out of habit." This means that she's the one who chose to play it.

Disagree.  Often when I play Possession I become aware of impulses and urges that I recognize are not my own.

Jorbles

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #24 on: January 05, 2012, 02:34:13 pm »
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Hell, it could even be
1 Swindler: Swindling the opponent's $5 action card into a Duchy (action card stack was empty, no other $5's around) and his 8 Silk Roads hit another VP target, so this gains him 8 + 3 = 11 VP. Since Sarah was already 1 point behind, the best she can do with her 1 Buy is buying a Colony for "just" 10 VP, still 2 VP short of a win/tie.

This solution doesn't actually work because we know Sarah has multiple buys because her hand drew those cards from multiple Council Room plays as stated in the original post.
« Last Edit: January 05, 2012, 02:36:37 pm by Jorbles »
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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #25 on: January 05, 2012, 02:38:09 pm »
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It's the beginning of her turn. She drew cards thanks to her opponent's Council Rooms.
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Deadlock39

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #26 on: January 05, 2012, 05:47:22 pm »
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I kept thinking that and almost posted it Jorbles, but you (and I) misread the post.  It indicates this is the very start of her turn, so she has not played any actions.  The Council Rooms were played by her opponent and are the explanation for why she has more than 5 cards in hand at the start of her turn.

The real mind bender here is how the heck she ended up with an entire deck consisting of 6 Platinum, 1 King's Court, 1 Golem, and 2 Transmutes

Edit: missed the page change, and TINAS already pointed this out.

Jorbles

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #27 on: January 05, 2012, 06:04:53 pm »
0

Ohhh that wasn't clear to me when I read it, but I guess that given that Davio's solution also works.
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ehunt

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #28 on: January 05, 2012, 09:58:06 pm »
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The real mind bender here is how the heck she ended up with an entire deck consisting of 6 Platinum, 1 King's Court, 1 Golem, and 2 Transmutes

She rage-bought a transmute when she couldn't afford her golem the first time her potion came through and transmuted the potion later. She trashed all her coppers and estates to her opponent's bishop, and then... yeah OK, Sarah's not so good at Dominion.
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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2012, 08:54:42 pm »
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If she had any +buys with the Platinums (unlike the OP said), the solution with embargo tokens and 1 Swindler ending the game might not work, because she can buy 2 Provinces, gaining only 10 Curses, but 12 VP.

But since the Councilrooms were just played by the opponent for the bigger hand, no +buy is involved in this riddle.
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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2012, 02:06:12 pm »
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I kept thinking that and almost posted it Jorbles, but you (and I) misread the post.  It indicates this is the very start of her turn, so she has not played any actions.  The Council Rooms were played by her opponent and are the explanation for why she has more than 5 cards in hand at the start of her turn.

The real mind bender here is how the heck she ended up with an entire deck consisting of 6 Platinum, 1 King's Court, 1 Golem, and 2 Transmutes

Edit: missed the page change, and TINAS already pointed this out.


Don't forget and is only 1 point behind.
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Deadlock39

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2012, 02:41:09 pm »
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Only one point behind with 7 Duchies purchased.  The only reasonable choice is that she was Bishoping most of her deck away, and then realized she only had good cards left, and set it aside with an Island.  Then again, the game state is already beyond reasonable (it's a puzzle why would it be) so I'll go with all the Duchies having been Chapeled away, and her opponent having a single Estate.

jomini

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2012, 04:03:46 pm »
+3

Alternative original solution:

Sarah's deck consists of two mountebanks. Her opponent receives 2 coppers and the last curse. Unfortunately for Sarah, her opponent has 8 gardens and 8 fairgrounds with 37 cards in deck and no coppers or curses. More unfortunely, her opponent has 13 unique cards. This results in a +23 swing for her opponent. Even after buying a colony, Sarah loses by 14 points.

Alternative qualified solution (has to win better with just golem play, not KC/golem).


requires Sarah choose the order of which card to play (either order is fine):
Sarah's deck consists of remake and mountebank. Sarah pitches two plats. Unfortunately, this leaves her with 38 total cards. Each of the 8 gardens on her native village mat is now worth one less. Sarah gives her opponent the last curse and a copper, but unfortunately for her this makes each of her opponent's 2 fairgrounds worth 2 additional VP.

If Sarah buys a colony her net gain is -8 from gardens (she has 39 cards), +10 from colony, +1 from curse, -1 from starting VP, and -4 from fairgrounds. Net, Sarah loses by 2.

Had Sarah played just the golem, she could have remade her KC into a province and bought a colony. This latter course would have resulted in +0 from gardens (she has 40 cards), +6 from province, +10 from colony, +1 curse, -1 from starting VP and -4 from fairgrounds. Net, Sarah wins by 12.



requires nothing (just VERY contrived):

Sarah's deck consists of two upgrades. Sarah trashes two plats leaving her with 28 cards which unfortunately lowers the value of each of her 8 gardens (safely hidden in NV mat - the NV was islanded away) by 1 point. This leaves Sarah down by 9. She cannot overcome this with a colony as the colonies has been embargoed 10 times. Most unfortunately for Sarah all the other piles in the game (including treasure & victory cards) have only 1 card left in them.

If Sarah buys the last  Colony she ends the game with 39 cards. From the start of her turn she has had no net change in her garden value, but has had +10 from the colony and -10 from the curses. This leaves Sarah 1 point short.

If Sarah buys the last province she ends the game with 29 cards. From the start of her turn she lost 8 points in garden value and gained 6 points from the province. Sarah loses by 3.

Had Sarah played just the golem, she could have upgraded her KC into a province, trashed a plat & bought a duchy. This leaves her with 30 cards & no change in garden points while gaining 6 from the province and 3 from the duchy. Sarah wins by 8.


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jomini

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #33 on: January 10, 2012, 04:22:37 pm »
+2

Alternative qualified solution (less contrived):

Sarah's remaining two cards are ambassadors. Sarah reveals plats both times (she has no effective choice) and gives her opponent the last two plats. Unfortunately for Sarah this raises the value of each of her opponent's fairgrounds by 2. This means that Sarah is now down by 17 which even a colony cannot overcome.

If Sarah had not played KC/golem, should could have revealed a KC which would not have impacted her opponent's fairgrounds. It would have instead given the final two KC's to her opponent and allowed her to buy a colony instead of a duchy.


In general, Sarah can:
give her opponent cards and hence points via attacks & fairgrounds or gardens
trash one or more plats & decrease her own score via gardens on a native mat
end the game by turning a plat into another card (ending on piles)
swindle her opponent for points (choice constrained)
be unable to make up points by buying a colony/province due to embargos - (with KC there is potential to lock out all the VP aside from duchies)

In order to win better by just playing golem, Sarah can:
develop a KC instead of plat - this can be huge if she say develops the KC into a province/Border village/garden
use an action on the KC instead of plat that keeps her card count the same

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ehunt

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #34 on: January 10, 2012, 11:36:31 pm »
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simply outstanding
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popsofctown

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #35 on: January 11, 2012, 01:10:17 am »
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love jomini's solutions
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glasser

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Re: In which Sarah king's courts a golem
« Reply #36 on: January 11, 2012, 01:14:43 am »
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jomini's solutions are awesome, though I will point out that for the Ambassador one, she does get to choose how many Platinums to return each time.
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