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[mcmcsalot]

I agree with acxle

[Axxle]

Again, I agree it would be ridiculous to take Night 3 Vig over Jailkeeper and a few other things, except for the fact that taking Night 3 Vig seemed likely to block mafia out of a great PR.

Strongman? It's not *that* strong. All it does is nerf a few power roles. N3 Vig? Maybe. But I'd much rather have actual town power in the form of cops than deny mafia things.

In a magic draft you go for a win condition first, then you can think about denying your opponent's win condition second. Play to win, not not to lose.

[Robz888]

Survivor was definitely not an auto win, they should definitely get lynched or shot before mylo since at it's best it's a role that basically makes everyone hated and at it's worst it's an sk no killing until the end.

This is just not. We played with a Survivor 10 games ago. I was mafia. It NEVER made sense for us to kill the Survivor, he's a potential mafia member. And it never made sense for the town to lynch him, he's a potential town member. I'm sure there are edge cases where like a vig could get him or something, but it's a really strong role to simply win with.

[Robz888]

Again, I agree it would be ridiculous to take Night 3 Vig over Jailkeeper and a few other things, except for the fact that taking Night 3 Vig seemed likely to block mafia out of a great PR.

I just thin you didn't realize you most likely create another tv because no upper draft townie excepts doc/cop/jk to still be aroun instead they grab a less important power. So I think your plan to help town was flawed. Also I think vengeful operates similar to vig because then if mafia kills you it's a guaranteed mafia kill. Where as with vig you shot a townie

That's really my only final qualm, I think vengeful is much better for town than vig, is a guareteed mafia kill if you are targeted for nk, and I think you are a popular nk especially if there is an sk. Vengeful does not help sk at all however and vig is very good for sk.

You misunderstand what Vengeful does!!! I do not automatically shoot the person who shot me. I simply get to shoot someone, when I get shot. It's not guaranteed to kill scum, or the person who killed me. It's just a vig shot that I use when I die.

Or else, my understanding of what it does is wrong and I made a horrible error.

[Robz888]

Again, I agree it would be ridiculous to take Night 3 Vig over Jailkeeper and a few other things, except for the fact that taking Night 3 Vig seemed likely to block mafia out of a great PR.

Strongman? It's not *that* strong. All it does is nerf a few power roles. N3 Vig? Maybe. But I'd much rather have actual town power in the form of cops than deny mafia things.

In a magic draft you go for a win condition first, then you can think about denying your opponent's win condition second. Play to win, not not to lose.

The only thing that really scares me is scum with super strong PRs. It was Vengeful and Night 3 Vig I really waned to block off. Extra shots for scum on Night 3, or when they die? Remember, extra shots are much better for scum than town, because scum actually knows who to shoot.

[Robz888]

Mcmcsalot, I am right. From mafiascum wiki:

"A Vengeful player is a one that, when lynched, is awarded the ability to kill any other player as they die.
Vengeful roles are much more commonly Town than Mafia, as Vengeful Mafia roles essentially punish the Town for lynching them."

Although, I could have sworn faust said his version of vengeful triggers upon night kill, not upon lynch.

[mcmcsalot]

Ohhhh, this is important, I thought vengeful took down the person who kills/hammer you. Not that you chose a vengekill. Okay, I now get it, this makes vengeful better to keep from scum and not better than vig.

So yea Joth lynch today?

[Robz888]

Joth lynch maybe, but I want to re-read.

[Axxle]

Again, I agree it would be ridiculous to take Night 3 Vig over Jailkeeper and a few other things, except for the fact that taking Night 3 Vig seemed likely to block mafia out of a great PR.

Strongman? It's not *that* strong. All it does is nerf a few power roles. N3 Vig? Maybe. But I'd much rather have actual town power in the form of cops than deny mafia things.

In a magic draft you go for a win condition first, then you can think about denying your opponent's win condition second. Play to win, not not to lose.

The only thing that really scares me is scum with super strong PRs. It was Vengeful and Night 3 Vig I really waned to block off. Extra shots for scum on Night 3, or when they die? Remember, extra shots are much better for scum than town, because scum actually knows who to shoot.

Vengeful only works if you die at night, which is pretty unlikely if scum gets that slot. And in the most likely case the SK would have used up their shot on scum anyway so it's a bit of a wash.

N3 vig is gets them another kill, but there are a lot of other roles that do the same thing.  1-shot lynchproof gets them an extra kill, 1-shot PGO gets them potentially a lot of other kills, and 1-shot Bus Driver/Redirector might let them redirect the Vig kill or mess with investigative roles causing a mislynch and another kill.

[Axxle]

Day 1: Lurking, OMGUS, "Why single me out, I'm lurking just like a lot of other people" sounds like scum frustrated they're being suspected for the wrong reasons. There was an Andrew vote in an odd time, which is tending town. Made it look really reluctant that he votes for ADK towards the end of the day despite being very willing earlier.  This feels very SK where he wants a lynch to go through that isn't him, but doesn't want to make it look like he knows what he's doing.  This prevents mafia from targeting him if he's helping to lynch scum while trying to not look bad in towns eyes if we mislynch town.

Day 2: A bit over eager about the whole "lynch scum day 1 = town win" fact. Spreads misinformation about a possible vig. Has a scum read on Robz this day as Mafia, still scumreading Robz as SK, this makes it look like his reads are really static and lazy. Mentions SK so freaking often this day, it's on his mind to find a scapegoat.

Day 3: Still on about Robz, clears him quickly (i might be missing context here?), mentions what an sk would do... and pretty much did it himself all game (lurked like crazy and being noncontroversal), started the Andrew mislynch, felt bad about it at the very end of the day but didn't bother to unvote or really shake the wagon in any way, starts super suspecting Robz again, maybe forgetting he cleared him earlier.  "promise that's not a scumslip" ಠ_ಠ,  Very big advocate of the SK conversion slot theory, which he himself falls into.  did advocate robz to not shoot which ends up with joth himself getting lynched which is slight town. weird wishywashy post about gutreading robz.


Vote: joth

[jotheonah]

Did you guys see the part where I stopped the train on the Andrew list? Where I repeatedly pointed out the things that are scummy about myself?

I am frustrated because I don't know of a defense that would be satisfying to you guys. I did good work scumhunting earlier in the game. I got us onto the ADK lynch. The only reason I didn't unvote yesterday when Andrew started seeming townie was because I forgot I was voting for him (i started voting for him way earlier in the day)

I honestly think Robz is our SK here. I think he picked vig for the extra shot with every intention to win as SK. I think he thought about, at the time, what he would say when asked why he picked vig and the "deny the mafia a slot" thing is a well-rehearsed story.

If it isn't Robz, and I hope you will listen to this when I'm dead if not when I'm alive, I think it's mcmc. I think he's been quiet all game and now suddenly, when his lynch is viable, he's all over the place and he's aggressively on me. And I mean aggressive in the sense of early and determined, not in the sense of mean.

Please don't lynch me. It might very well cost us the game.

Vote: Robz888

[jotheonah]

I think we should remember that Voltaire was also in favor of a Robz lynch.

[jotheonah]

mentions what an sk would do... and pretty much did it himself all game (lurked like crazy and being noncontroversal),

this is confusing to me on two counts.
(1) if it were true, why would I say it and draw attention to myself as SK?
(2) it isn't true! I lurked a ton for the beginning of the game, because I was IRL busy. Once I jumped in though, I was a very active and involved participant, including taking a lot of stances. Speaking out against lynches that are about to role on on their own -- like I did with Scott/ADK day one and tried to do yesterday with Andrew -- is the very opposite of being noncontroversial. If you really want to call me a lurker this game, do a post count. You'll see that you're wrong.

[Axxle]

You agreed here:

I don't know. All I can point to is my 133+ scumhunting skills and those unfortunately mean nothing here.

Thank you Robz for reminding me about when I was SK, because it made me realize. When I was SK I was really really scared of being lynched. I think we want to look for someone who has either lurked like crazy or been really really noncontroversial. Someone who hasn't been worth suspecting, or someone who was suspected and reacted weirdly strongly to it.

I think that's you!

Someone OTHER than me. On account of, I'm town.

[Axxle]

Basically you are projecting your own play as SK as how other people would play SK, then just handwaving things away when it's brought up you do similar things.

[jotheonah]

technically, I didn't agree with you there. I just asked that you look elsewhere.

PPE: I'm not handwaving now. I'm directly challenging it with facts. I have not played like an SK this game, and I defy you to come up with a specific example where I have.

[Axxle]

I had a whole story and everything.

[Axxle]

I mean I don't need to convince scum that they're scum so...

[jotheonah]

No all you need to do is convince yourself that I'm scum. And it seems that you have.

[Robz888]

I probably lean toward Joth, just because I lean away from other people. Mcmc, I think, would be more active as SK. Scotty is JUST like he was in the previous games, where he was very scummy lurker but actually town.

Could either be SK? Absolutely.

But I don't know. I'm probably leaning Joth for that reason alone.

I should really re-read, but I don't know what I would see that would make me go, "Oh, SK!" I know, for instance, that Scotty was a lynch choic Day 1 and showed survivalist tendencies that looked kind of scummy... but he did that in Adventure Time, too. And was town.

Mcmc... mcmc probably knows how to fool me at this point.

Ack, this is really hard.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: joth

I think its joth or robz with more emphasis on joth.

[jotheonah]

Sudgy and Scott, it'd be great if y'all weighed in.

[faust]

"The trouble with the world is that the stupid are cocksure and the intelligent are full of doubt."
- Bertrand Russell

Vote Count 4.1

jotheonah (2): Axxle, mcmcsalot
Robz888 (1): jotheonah

Not Voting (3): Robz888, sudgy, scott_pilgrim

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch

Day 4 ends on April 28 at noon.

[Axxle]

Request prods

[Axxle]

oh, i guess it's easter for some people. i can wait till after that.