Player: Space
Possible Pairs: {EFHW, Datswan}
D1:
Through post #403 (22/98 for Space, including pregame), Space has not interacted with either EFHW or Datswan in any meaningful way (One comment agreeing with EFHW that Silver seemed odd for focusing so much on Bart, and one comment to EFHW about the show itself). I made this my first cut point because Space did a reread on two players immediately prior to this, and stated a desire to do a reread on two others in this post - while it's all of mild value, those four players were: Chairs, Morgrim, Hydrad, Silver. This is also Space's last post for D1 (didn't realize this above when I stopped to write.
). The only vote that Space ever cast, for the entirety of D1, was their first post in #85 where they voted for Morgrim. The post at #403 was on September 17th, at 7:30pm FT, approximately 11 1/2 hours to deadline D1. At this point in time theirs was the only vote on Morgrim and in no way was it helping us towards a lynch. The actual hammer on Awaclus was cast on September 18th at 3:00am, 4 hours prior to deadline, and 7 1/2 hours after Space's previous post. According to Space's post at #403, deadline would've been around noon for them, so the lynch occured around 8:00am. My biggest problem with Space from D1 is simply that they did... nothing - like, at all. I'll grant that the majority of what ended up being Awaclus's lynch occured during the time that Space was most likely asleep - but even in their last post before going to bed the night before the deadline... there was no attempt at really finding scum. The only vote they cast being on Morgrim from their first post D1 just really doesn't help matters. As far as pairings go - at least from a Space-to-X view, there's nothing to match them with either Swan or EFHW.
D2:
Space was the first person to post out of the gates on D2, at #426:
Urgh, busy night. Seems reasonably likely that ash was the NK and Iguana died by targeting the wrong person while in human form. I need to read back to work out who Iguana would have been scumreading, and work out whether he'd have played to die as a way of catching scum at all anyway, especially with a randomly switching role like that.
If that leaves Ash as the NK, then it kind of points to older players who're more aware of his big meta. I don't see Ash as that big and scary a target, and I suspect others who think a bit more like me (silver, for isntance) would leave him be as scum just because he has a high chance of lying to town and self-destructing even as town.
Then there's the good old "why didn't Galz/gkrieg die?" thing. There's bound to be wifom in here somewhere along the line, though. More reading and thinking when I'm not at work...
I actually responded to this post at the time (see: #432), and what struck me as off about the entire post then still does now: At the time, there was really no reason to assume that Ash was a scum kill and Igu was a WV death. I mean, it was a possibility, sure - but so were a lot of other things. SK, Vig, PGO, etc - It simply feels off to me to instantly jump to the conclusion that Space did simply because there's evidence of the possibility that the suggested outcome occurred - without considering the potential for unknown possibilities, especially in an RMM. It felt then as it does now - that Space already knew that Ash was the NK, so quickly jumped to why they felt Igu must've died.
It also feels as if both Space's second and third statement in that quote are designed to create WIFOM - certainly there's no real measure of support to either opinion - the second of which has simply been false recently, and the first of which could be stated exactly opposite (ie. "I think the newer players are more likely to have killed Ash at night because they're afraid of the legend - whereas older players know how to deal with him"). I just felt like neither statement had any actual value in the process of helping find scum, but more than that, were designed to cast shade without any real support.
Space DOES spend a LOT of time defending Silver right out of the gates Day 2, which does suggest that Silver had in fact visited them Night 1. The problem is, I would expect Space to do this as either alignment because it would look weird to Silver if they didn't. Still, this does at least support Space's claim regarding Silver.
The majority of the middle of the day is spent talking about vote scripts and what amounted to Chairs controlling Morgrim's vote. Post #620 is Space's first (and thusfar only) interaction with or mention of Datswan... but it's a nothing post. Post #633 continue's this little "feud" between them - it could definitely be forced interaction from teammates that have realized they have no interactions thusfar:
Swan unvote was not registered.
I already posted about this, and we have confirmation from LaLight back at post #530 that the unvote was not supposed to have been missed out.
I also posted about the Ash one at #146, but if there was another one with Hydrad then I missed it.
Galz and gkrieg seem entrenched in their silver case.
I've left my "test vote" on Galz because I think he's being lazy about giving a good justification. Gkrieg is trying harder, at least, but I still don't think it's enough to go on.
I'm not saying I think silver is conf!town, but I'm saying I'm not interested in the cases on him today.
yes I know, I wasn't trying to dissolve your previous comments. I was just reading through from start to finish and posting all of it as I went.
Yeah, but it's nicer for other people if you flag your intentions up-front. To me it totally looked like you were ignoring stuff I'd said ~90 posts ago, filling the thread with a load of stuff that's purely mechanical and offers no insight or conversation to the other people in the thread, and boils down to one little post where you say "hey, here are three points where things don't make sense".
One little post saying "I found these three voting mismatches, and I wonder why Space missed the Hydrad one? Maybe they're scum together!" would have been a much better way of getting some engagement going. Flooding the thread with stuff that the conversational people aren't interested in re-reading, verifying or engaging with, in a game that's already stalling pretty badly, doesn't actually seem all that pro-town.
In #688 Space moves their vote from me to Hydrad, while noting that they preferred to lynch Morgrim, me, or Gkrieg. In #786 Space moved from Hydrad to WCD to help get the lynch through.
D2 is where I first really started to feel like Space was scum, and was definitely where I was going to pull much of my case on them from when I was talking about it D3 prior to claims. Space and I simply read the game state completely differently day 2. I thought that it was naive of Space not to consider other options regarding the N1 deaths, Space thought it was presumptuous of me to believe that there might be without any evidence. I felt that, given Morgrim's posts, there was enough evidence there to support a case on Silver being scum - Space felt that, given their knowledge that Silver visited them Night 1, my evidence was circumstantial at best, and unsupported directly by Morgrim himself. Space wanted to lynch me, and the people I read as town, while they defended the person that I wanted to lynch, and the people I thought were scum. We were about as polar opposite as you can get on Day 2. As far as interactions go, Space continues to have next to nothing in regards to interactions with EFHW, and the interactions that they have with Datswan D2 are extremely limited - although the nitpick points of contention between the two definitely feel like they could be a forced interaction.
D3:
Space opens in #808 by claiming that Silver had visited them N1, which explains their read on Silver for all of D2. It still bothers me that there's no breadcrumb from Silver to support this - especially after Silver made such a big deal about Iguana NOT leaving a breadcrumb on D1. But if you re-read D2 from Space it does SEEM like Space's assertion that Silver visited them is accurate.
In #809, Space continues to attack my case on Silver by misrepresenting what I had said - I never claimed it was based on Morgrim having Tracker evidence, I had said that I suspected Morgrim of having *some form of cop like results*, which could be, but wasn't limited to: Tracker, Watcher, Cop, etc. Space claims that my speculation was "totally unfounded", and yet I would still argue that anybody reading Morgrim from D2, knowing that they had claimed SOME form of "Detective" would read his posts to STRONGLY suggest they had a result on Silver.
By this point I had been feeling like Space was going out of their way to discredit me, and had been since the very beginning of day 2 when they opened with what was essentially the WIFOM suggesting it was weird that I wasn't yet dead. It felt like they had decided on an agenda to get me lynched, and they were going to push it regardless of the cases/evidence of what I was saying. I'll fully admit that I was wrong about Morgrim having a result on Silver Day 2 - but I do not feel that I was at all wrong in reading Morgrim as telegraphing that he did, and moreover, given the limited amount of information that we had to work with up to that point, I don't think it was at all wrong of me to find this sort of evidence compelling enough to push a case. In #822, Space continues to frame the pushing of the cases on Silver as scummy, saying that Gkrieg and I had been on a "Witch Hunt" to get Silver lynched.
D3 continues with EFHW finding the "breadcrumb" from Silver on Datswan, and in #847 Space jumps on it:
I think the breadcrumb that EFHW posted is very plausible, so my test vote can be Vote: Datswan :-)
Between #847 & #901, Space makes 6 different posts talking about the breadcrumb that Silver left that implicate Swan as scum. While I agree very much with the strength of the breadcrumb (as far as breadcrumbs go), I find it very off-putting that Space wants to put so much weight in this crumb, but cannot show where Silver made a similar crumb about Space on D1 - I mean, in a vacuum, sure, this is great. But I find it difficult to find the argument that "Silver said he would leave great breadcrumbs, and here's a great breadcrumb, so Swan must be Swan. Also, he targeted me Night 1, and you all will just have to believe me because Silver didn't breadcrumb it" to be credible. I'm just left feeling like Space will call things out when they're convenient for them, and ignore things when they aren't - something that strikes me as a particularly scummy trait. WITH that said, I do feel like this makes a Space/Swan pairing a little LESS likely, unless Space felt really compelled to push this argument against their partner - which would only be the case if they felt the evidence was completely damning. Maybe they did? I dunno. But to me it takes away from this potential pairing.
DatSwan
EFHW
Space
gkrieg
chairs
Galz
I find the ordering quite funny, because my leading hypothesis at the moment is that Swan and Galz are scumbuddies... it's so uncharacteristic of Swan not to be super-suspicious of Galz, and we have a breadcrumb from a dead WV on Swan. And then there's Galz's awful silver case, which he built on top of allegedly reading incorrectly into Morgrim's posts.. If Galz is that great at reading the finer details, why was he missing all my "it's not silver" subtext at the same time? I think he was looking to build a mislynch case, rather than trying to read into the game that subtly. And why is Galz not engaging with the breadcrumb conversation?
At least Morgrim and I agree that Swan is looking scummy. If I were dictating the order, I'd suggest something more along the lines of:
Swan
Galz
chairs
gkrieg
EFHW
Space
Morgrim
Hydrad
As it is, masons, do you have daychat? If so, I think you should be debating this in your own QT, then presenting town with a finished list, rather than musing openly in here.
Responding to the bold above (which I never did at the time, but was planning on it when making the case against Space): Because there was no evidence, circumstantial or not, to support your read on Silver! Day 2 was essentially (Me): "Here's all these posts from a claimed Detective suspecting Silver - so I'm going to go out on a limb and say he probably has result implicating Silver but doesn't want to fully out himself so he's not full claiming at this time". (You): "No, you're wrong, Silver is town". It was your word/read against a claimed detective that was beating the same drum the entire day! I had far more reason to trust Morgrim than to trust you!
In #938 & #941 Space tries slightly to distance themselves from harping about the breadcrumb implicating Swan as scum - making sure it's noted that EFHW is the one that found the crumb, not them. But as I noted above, while that may be true, Space definitely jumped on and pushed the breadcrumb. These two things combined though (Space pushing it first, and then trying to distance themselves after) definitely leave me feeling like the [Space/Swan] team is less likely. If they were partners, then either Space wouldn't have pushed the crumb at all, trying to avoid a Swan lynch, or they would've wanted to make sure they got credit for it later if Swan DID get lynched. This makes any potential scum team here most likely to be [Space/EFHW].
In #955 Space claims Dirk, which is when/where I decided NOT to push a case against them yesterday (despite the massive AtE that they open the post with). When I was Samurai Jack in the game of the same name, I felt that claiming the titular character D1 would make it extremely unlikely that I was fake-claiming (and I wasn't - I was SJ, and was town). While this isn't a D1 claim, it's the first claim based off Morgrim's ordering - and either Space was given Dirk as a fakeclaim, and they know Dirk isn't in the game (possible), or they are town and telling the truth. Given that we hadn't had/seen any scum death's at this point, it seemed reasonable to remove Space from the lynch pool yesterday based simply on their flavor claim.
Most of the rest of Space's day consists of talking about the claims and asking questions about how exactly powers work - something I would expect from both town and scum. Space concludes that their biggest two scum reads after the claims are Chairs and Datswan (#995).
Space's last post was on October 5th at 7:21pm FT, which is consistent with when they usually go to sleep. Deadline was on October 6th at 5:00am FT - which was 9 1/2 hours after Space posted. That would've been around 10:00am FT for Space. EFHW was by far the likeliest candidate to get lynched at that point (sitting at 3 votes) - while I cannot hold Space solely responsible for the fact that we went to no lynch (especially as EFHW still needed TWO votes to lynch), it is odd that Space didn't even check in knowing we were this close to deadline.
******************************
And that's about all I have for now. I'm down to 13% so won't get to Datswan/EFHW until later today. To conclude on the reread though, I do definitely see things that point towards Space potentially being scum. If they ARE scum, I feel like the their partner is much more likely to be EFHW and not Datswan. There are almost no interactions with EFHW on D1 or D2, and while there are a few mentions of / interactions with EFHW on D3, they're mostly to agree with things EFHW has said - they aren't really engaging with EFHW. Combined with Space's absence at deadline yesterday when EFHW was the most likely lynch, I could definitely see this pair being possible. I feel like if the pair were [Space/Swan] then Space definitely would've found the time to log in and vote for EFHW before deadline yesterday.