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Author Topic: Discard/Trash for benefit  (Read 3521 times)

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LastFootnote

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Discard/Trash for benefit
« on: July 22, 2013, 11:51:54 am »
+1

Redistrict
Types: Action
Cost: $3
Trash a card from your hand then discard any number of cards. Gain a card with cost exactly equal to the cost of the trashed card plus 1 Coin per card discarded.

I'm a bit surprised I've never seen this card suggested anywhere else. Maybe I just missed it.

Anyhow, it seems like an interesting idea, though unfortunately I haven't been able to playtest it in a real game yet. In a hand of 5 cards, it can function as an Expand, provided you do nothing else that turn. Really it benefits from large hand sizes, though, like most discard-for-benefit cards.

Any comments or criticisms? I'm particularly interested in whether it's just too niche (too useless on most boards, but brokenly powerful on a few).
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Awaclus

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2013, 12:02:00 pm »
+1

I think this is extremely weak unless you have a large hand size. And if you have a large hand size, I'm not sure if you really need this card anymore. It's very good in a Double Tac deck though.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #2 on: July 22, 2013, 12:49:57 pm »
+1

Seems reasonable to me.  It will usually be an Expand that kills your turn.  But that's not so bad for a $3 card.  You could open with one, and trash an Estate for a $5 card.  That's a pretty nice t3 or t4.
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Asper

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #3 on: July 22, 2013, 01:58:00 pm »
+1

Nowhere near to being too weak. I can only imagine Awaclus missed that the cost of the trashed card matters, too.
As an Expand with a discard-clause, i don't know whether opening with two of these and just Expanding your Estates into Duchies and then Provinces isn't a bit too strong. After all, you don't need to care about economy at all - you can start right away, playing your Redistricts every turn and upgrading your most expensive card. Without Redistrict in hand, buy another Estate/Duchy/Redistrict. I feel it's very easy to go for a one-card-strategy, here.
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sudgy

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #4 on: July 22, 2013, 02:02:49 pm »
+1

Nowhere near to being too weak. I can only imagine Awaclus missed that the cost of the trashed card matters, too.
As an Expand with a discard-clause, i don't know whether opening with two of these and just Expanding your Estates into Duchies and then Provinces isn't a bit too strong. After all, you don't need to care about economy at all - you can start right away, playing your Redistricts every turn and upgrading your most expensive card. Without Redistrict in hand, buy another Estate/Duchy/Redistrict. I feel it's very easy to go for a one-card-strategy, here.

Yay, another Rebuild!..
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   Quote from: sudgy on June 31, 2011, 11:47:46 pm

liopoil

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #5 on: July 22, 2013, 02:10:00 pm »
+1

also, it's good at reverse-swindler. In the endgame, you can turn peddlers into provinces, or 5-cost engine components into duchies.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #6 on: July 22, 2013, 02:16:40 pm »
0

As an Expand with a discard-clause, i don't know whether opening with two of these and just Expanding your Estates into Duchies and then Provinces isn't a bit too strong. After all, you don't need to care about economy at all - you can start right away, playing your Redistricts every turn and upgrading your most expensive card. Without Redistrict in hand, buy another Estate/Duchy/Redistrict. I feel it's very easy to go for a one-card-strategy, here.

This is something that should be relatively easy to test. I'll run a few mock games and see how well this strategy performs. Thanks for catching that!
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Asper

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #7 on: July 22, 2013, 02:22:58 pm »
+1

As an Expand with a discard-clause, i don't know whether opening with two of these and just Expanding your Estates into Duchies and then Provinces isn't a bit too strong. After all, you don't need to care about economy at all - you can start right away, playing your Redistricts every turn and upgrading your most expensive card. Without Redistrict in hand, buy another Estate/Duchy/Redistrict. I feel it's very easy to go for a one-card-strategy, here.

This is something that should be relatively easy to test. I'll run a few mock games and see how well this strategy performs. Thanks for catching that!

You are welcome :)
I just did one and it pretty easily won the Province split against a Remake/silver opening (Lab and Haggler on the board). It might be that i'm bad at setting engines up, cause once a Haggler and a Remake collided, but at least it shows a monolithic mini-rebuild is competitive. I had my first Province turn 5.
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LastFootnote

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #8 on: July 22, 2013, 02:24:37 pm »
0

As an Expand with a discard-clause, i don't know whether opening with two of these and just Expanding your Estates into Duchies and then Provinces isn't a bit too strong. After all, you don't need to care about economy at all - you can start right away, playing your Redistricts every turn and upgrading your most expensive card. Without Redistrict in hand, buy another Estate/Duchy/Redistrict. I feel it's very easy to go for a one-card-strategy, here.

This is something that should be relatively easy to test. I'll run a few mock games and see how well this strategy performs. Thanks for catching that!

You are welcome :)
I just did one and it pretty easily won the Province split against a Remake/silver opening (Lab and Haggler on the board). It might be that i'm bad at setting engines up, cause once a Haggler and a Remake collided, but at least it shows a monolithic mini-rebuild is competitive. I had my first Province turn 5.

Hoooooly crap. I may have to scrap this card.

EDIT: Alternatively, I could stipulate that the gained card cannot be a Victory card. Any opinions about that?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 02:25:57 pm by LastFootnote »
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StrongRhino

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #9 on: July 22, 2013, 02:35:34 pm »
+1

As an Expand with a discard-clause, i don't know whether opening with two of these and just Expanding your Estates into Duchies and then Provinces isn't a bit too strong. After all, you don't need to care about economy at all - you can start right away, playing your Redistricts every turn and upgrading your most expensive card. Without Redistrict in hand, buy another Estate/Duchy/Redistrict. I feel it's very easy to go for a one-card-strategy, here.

This is something that should be relatively easy to test. I'll run a few mock games and see how well this strategy performs. Thanks for catching that!

You are welcome :)
I just did one and it pretty easily won the Province split against a Remake/silver opening (Lab and Haggler on the board). It might be that i'm bad at setting engines up, cause once a Haggler and a Remake collided, but at least it shows a monolithic mini-rebuild is competitive. I had my first Province turn 5.

Hoooooly crap. I may have to scrap this card.

EDIT: Alternatively, I could stipulate that the gained card cannot be a Victory card. Any opinions about that?
Or like HoP- If a victory card is gained, trash this.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #10 on: July 22, 2013, 02:40:32 pm »
+2

Raising the price to $4 would slow down that rush as well.  But maybe not by enough.
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Asper

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2013, 02:57:39 pm »
+1

As an Expand with a discard-clause, i don't know whether opening with two of these and just Expanding your Estates into Duchies and then Provinces isn't a bit too strong. After all, you don't need to care about economy at all - you can start right away, playing your Redistricts every turn and upgrading your most expensive card. Without Redistrict in hand, buy another Estate/Duchy/Redistrict. I feel it's very easy to go for a one-card-strategy, here.

This is something that should be relatively easy to test. I'll run a few mock games and see how well this strategy performs. Thanks for catching that!

You are welcome :)
I just did one and it pretty easily won the Province split against a Remake/silver opening (Lab and Haggler on the board). It might be that i'm bad at setting engines up, cause once a Haggler and a Remake collided, but at least it shows a monolithic mini-rebuild is competitive. I had my first Province turn 5.

Hoooooly crap. I may have to scrap this card.

EDIT: Alternatively, I could stipulate that the gained card cannot be a Victory card. Any opinions about that?

Well, a turn-5 Province of course takes a bit of lucky draw. Maybe "pretty easily" was a bit exaggerated.  :-\
But it won, and i think it wasn't that weak of a board.
SirPeebles suggestion also has the effect that you can't just trash a Copper for a Redistrict normally, which also may help to nerf it. It may be enough, i don't know.
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SirPeebles

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2013, 03:43:42 pm »
+2

Another possibility is to topdeck cards from your hand, rather than discard them.  My sense is that the anti-cycling would dramatically slown down the single card strategy.  But I haven't tested it.
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Awaclus

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #13 on: July 22, 2013, 05:14:54 pm »
+1

Nowhere near to being too weak. I can only imagine Awaclus missed that the cost of the trashed card matters, too.
I read that part, but somehow I thought that Estates are the cards you would discard (because that's what you discard for Oasis, Young Witch etc). Well, obviously that's not the case and the card is, indeed, nowhere near to being too weak.
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #14 on: July 22, 2013, 05:43:34 pm »
+1

My initial reaction when reading it was that it's really weak, but others have pointed out that it could end up being like Rebuild.  Even if you manage to connect Redistrict with Estate/Duchy every hand, and the Redistricts never collide, you wouldn't have four Provinces until turn 11 (open Redistrict/Redistrict, eight turns or redistricting Estate into Duchy or Duchy into Province, and one turn to buy a fourth Estate), and that was both assuming perfect shuffle luck and assuming that you get a Redistrict in every hand, which I don't think is possible without buying a third Redistrict.  After that point, every new Province is going to take at least 3 turns (one to buy an Estate, then two turns to turn it into Province), which seems pretty slow.

If you have it cost $4, you can't open doubles (except with Baker, but that's just one combo), which I thought would slow it down a lot but now that I'm thinking about it maybe not.  It might be the case that opening Redistrict/Estate and grabbing a second Redistrict later is almost as good as opening Redistrict/Redistrict and grabbing a fourth Estate later.

I think the big problem with this card is that most boards with Redistrict will be such that either you go for Redistrict and nothing else, or you ignore Redistrict.  There are some interesting things you could do with it with a big hand size though.

Another problem is that if the monolithic strategy turns out to be strong, it will be very, very luck-dependent, since having two Redistricts collide can set you back a whole shuffle.  Having it top-deck instead of discard would fix that problem, and then it would fix it even more by making the monolithic strategy be very slow anyway.  Or maybe it actually wouldn't slow it down?  You could just buy Redistricts whenever you can, because they won't collide (if you do you just top-deck them).  Drawing a hand of four Redistricts and an Estate wouldn't make a difference at all; you just expand the Estate, and put back three Redistricts, next turn expand something else and put back two Redistricts, etc.

I keep thinking I have opinions on this card and then convincing myself that I'm wrong, so now I don't know what to think.
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GeronimoRex

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Re: Discard/Trash for benefit
« Reply #15 on: July 23, 2013, 11:22:42 am »
0

EDIT: Alternatively, I could stipulate that the gained card cannot be a Victory card. Any opinions about that?

Eliminating the Victory card is probably enough of a nerf to make it work, but it would still probably be a very strong opening card in most kingdoms, especially kingdoms with limited trashing, since it allows you to make every card in your hand useful as fuel for the TFB process. And when Redistricts collide you always have the option of trashing one into a Gold -- or into Goon or Grand Market. The speed at which this could start grabbing GMs is pretty frightening.

In Colony/Platinum games, this would be really powerful because of how quickly you could get to Platinums.

At least if you restrict it from gaining Victory cards, it's just powerful, but it can't be a one card strategy -- it would just accelerate some other potential strategies.

That said, I like it as a card idea.
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