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[Axxle]

For the record, although I don't mind O being suspected in general.  I do not like that he seems to be a completely new bandwagon this close to the end of the day.  I don't want to panic and mislynch him like Galz in MIII.  (With Grujah, Glooble, and now Tables looking closely at him)
It seems like there are enough players (me included) that think he's town that this won't happen, but I'm wary.

How so much changes after so short amount of time.

I'm fine with an O lynch if that's the direction we're going.  A vote count would be useful.

[Robz888]

Just checking in to say I also support the O lynch, and have alreadyvoted that way. Galzria is a very close second, though. When the next day begins, I hope the town doesn't forget about Galzria and Jo, who are other people I have qualms about.

Power townies, be smart tonight.

[jotheonah]

Have to go for a while.

Will vote O if need be before deadline, prefer Galzria. So excited about new information tomorrow.

[Galzria]

Have to go for a while.

Will vote O if need be before deadline, prefer Galzria. So excited about new information tomorrow.

Confidant about being alive much?

[Galzria]

Alright, it's not my first choice, second choice, or even in my top 5.

But I would rather lynch than not, and I've admitted to having difficulty reading him. So:

Vote: O

[Galzria]

I believe O is at 4 votes, but an official count would be great.

[Dsell]

Still reading, quite a few pages left. Please don't lynch without me getting to say anything!

[popsofctown]

O lynch is go lynch

You ask us to put together a list - directly ignore questions on how we should use it - then you disappear for a while, and this is what you come back with?

Can't post more - have company for dinner - but seriously!

It rhymes.

[Voltgloss]

Vote Count 2-23

jotheonah (3): Dsell, SwitchedFromStarcraft, Captain_Frisk
Grujah (1): popsofctown
Glooble (1): Grujah
O (4): Tables, Robz888, Glooble, Galzria
Galzria (2): Axxle, jotheonah
popsofctown (1): O

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Lynch Deadline:  Monday, June 25, 9:59 a.m. EDT

[Axxle]

I'm fine with an O lynch if that's the direction we're going.  A vote count would be useful.

Vote: O (L-2)
O you might need to claim if you haven't already.

[Captain_Frisk]

Well - I like that this wagon is different than my grujah wagon, but seriously... Glooble, is there any lynch you don't get behind?

Can someone explain why we are lynching O and not Jonah?  Table's magic list said so?  He tallied it up, eliminated the top guy, and then got to make his choice of the next 2 and now we're all voting for him? 

Why can't we lynch Jonah or Pops - who there have been actual cases against?

Pops started this up, and has repeatedly dodged questions of "how are we going to pick the lynch target" - and when called out on his cagey responses, he says "because it rhymes".

If it was anyone other than Tables or SFS driving the selection, I'd be really angry... now I'm just confused. 

[Galzria]

Well - I like that this wagon is different than my grujah wagon, but seriously... Glooble, is there any lynch you don't get behind?

Can someone explain why we are lynching O and not Jonah?  Table's magic list said so?  He tallied it up, eliminated the top guy, and then got to make his choice of the next 2 and now we're all voting for him? 

Why can't we lynch Jonah or Pops - who there have been actual cases against?

Pops started this up, and has repeatedly dodged questions of "how are we going to pick the lynch target" - and when called out on his cagey responses, he says "because it rhymes".

If it was anyone other than Tables or SFS driving the selection, I'd be really angry... now I'm just confused.

I would MUCH rather lynch Jo than O (see Pops, I can rhyme too). He is actually in my top 3. But I don't want to no-lynch, and O had movement and some form of consensus. The fact that I'm not SURE I could tell town O from Mafia O doesn't help.

[Dsell]

Finished.

I'm going to start putting a lot of content together to summarize my impressions/ideas about who is scum as well as reasoning for my vote, but for now and since we have so little time, Vote: Galzria. In short, reading through these pages I at one point had completely bought into everything he was saying before realizing that he was still possible mafia. When I looked at what he said with that possibility in mind AND in light of some of the things he's said recently (ok I thought Robz was crazy at first too but I understood what he was meaning waaaay sooner than Galz did, and Galz was pretty rough on him about it), I actually feel VERY worried that he's mafia and exactly where he wants to be: front and center with a mix of people trusting and distrusting him.

I know it looks crazy that I'm getting on the bandwagon with the person I've campaigned hardest against, but jo is probably only my 3rd or 4th most-likely-to-be-mafia at this point.

I could support lynching O but I have some strong misgivings about it. He's been crazy and quite oddly defensive D2, but I don't believe he's ever been in serious hot water before in any game. I fear that lynching him, whether he flips mafia or town, will give us a lot of information about how O plays but not so much information we can use to make good lynches on future days. Obviously lynching mafia, if he is mafia, is worth it. But he's not at the top of my suspicions list and I still believe we have time to make a better choice.

Also, was O meaning that he was leaving immediately? Is he gone? Because that would be sucky to lynch someone while they're gone/a convenient excuse depending on how you look at it. But Axxle, if he's really gone I wouldn't be expecting a claim from him.

Like I said, more content to come.

[Galzria]

Finished.

I'm going to start putting a lot of content together to summarize my impressions/ideas about who is scum as well as reasoning for my vote, but for now and since we have so little time, Vote: Galzria. In short, reading through these pages I at one point had completely bought into everything he was saying before realizing that he was still possible mafia. When I looked at what he said with that possibility in mind AND in light of some of the things he's said recently (ok I thought Robz was crazy at first too but I understood what he was meaning waaaay sooner than Galz did, and Galz was pretty rough on him about it), I actually feel VERY worried that he's mafia and exactly where he wants to be: front and center with a mix of people trusting and distrusting him.

I know it looks crazy that I'm getting on the bandwagon with the person I've campaigned hardest against, but jo is probably only my 3rd or 4th most-likely-to-be-mafia at this point.

I could support lynching O but I have some strong misgivings about it. He's been crazy and quite oddly defensive D2, but I don't believe he's ever been in serious hot water before in any game. I fear that lynching him, whether he flips mafia or town, will give us a lot of information about how O plays but not so much information we can use to make good lynches on future days. Obviously lynching mafia, if he is mafia, is worth it. But he's not at the top of my suspicions list and I still believe we have time to make a better choice.

Also, was O meaning that he was leaving immediately? Is he gone? Because that would be sucky to lynch someone while they're gone/a convenient excuse depending on how you look at it. But Axxle, if he's really gone I wouldn't be expecting a claim from him.

Like I said, more content to come.

Hmm, interesting. Wrong, but interesting.

Let me ask this:

Lynch me if you must, but what do you learn when I flip pro-town? This question is actually for everybody, but Joth's vote on me means nothing to me, whereas Dsell's does, so I put the question here.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm on eastern time, and was out in the sun all day - so I'm turning in.  I'll be up early and will review in advance of deadline.  I am skeptical of O lynch - in my mind this is effectively a random lynch because O plays to not release any information... I don't see what we get - especially since everyone can claim they voted for O because of deadline...

I will hammer Pops or Galz in the morning if it is needed to avoid nolynch.  I am less likely to hammer anyone else, and my vote is still on J.

@Galz - if you flip town, I want to lynch Pops next.  Ditto for if Pops = town -> lynch you.  I would PREFER to lynch pops, if only because I enjoy reading your posts... rather than "it rhymes" vote justifications.

That said - your bickering with RobZ, your crazy gambit, your willingness to vote for someone who isn't even in your top 6 (according to the tables spreadsheet) all feel strange to me... especially considering that your "I'd rather lynch J than O" strikes me as strange given that they both had 3 votes on them when you cast your vote.

[Dsell]

Also, to make one of those "lists" pops was advocating, the people I could see as mafia and potentially get behind lynching are:

Galzria, Popsofctown (I'm sure they are not both mafia), Grujah, Jotheonah, O, and to a slightly lesser extent Glooble and Axxle2. C_F I'm a bit wary of but more neutral, Robz I believe is town but do not buy into everything he's said day 2 (But I have agreed with a lot. I think calling for Grujah's wagon to stop was smart because man that thing looked mafia fueled...that said I'm actually still pretty suspicious of him, so I'm unsure how to justify those two lines of thought). SFS and Tables I'm pretty confident are town, not going to entertain any other ideas yet.

I think that's everyone? If I've missed anyone I'm automatically suspicious of them because I've been wading in this mafia game for a few hours now and if they've flown under my radar, that scares me.

I know that's a huge list of people I'm suspicious of, and I hope it will shrink as I can clear my head and think about the connections some more. For now there's not time for that, and Galzria is head and shoulders above the rest in terms of suspicion for me. Oh, and the list also encompasses a couple of "prisms" as pops would say, so naturally when we see the alignment of the lynchee and the NK, the list should also shrink a bit more.

This is not the promised content, that will probably come later tonight because I'm about to watch a movie with family.

[Dsell]

(But I have agreed with a lot. I think calling for Grujah's wagon to stop was smart because man that thing looked mafia fueled...that said I'm actually still pretty suspicious of him, so I'm unsure how to justify those two lines of thought).

By "him" I mean Grujah, not Robz. Not currently suspicious of Robz.

[Galzria]

I'm on eastern time, and was out in the sun all day - so I'm turning in.  I'll be up early and will review in advance of deadline.  I am skeptical of O lynch - in my mind this is effectively a random lynch because O plays to not release any information... I don't see what we get - especially since everyone can claim they voted for O because of deadline...

I will hammer Pops or Galz in the morning if it is needed to avoid nolynch.  I am less likely to hammer anyone else, and my vote is still on J.

@Galz - if you flip town, I want to lynch Pops next.  Ditto for if Pops = town -> lynch you.  I would PREFER to lynch pops, if only because I enjoy reading your posts... rather than "it rhymes" vote justifications.

That said - your bickering with RobZ, your crazy gambit, your willingness to vote for someone who isn't even in your top 6 (according to the tables spreadsheet) all feel strange to me... especially considering that your "I'd rather lynch J than O" strikes me as strange given that they both had 3 votes on them when you cast your vote.

Fair enough. My vote to O is because things were moving that way and I honestly WOULDN'T know town O from Mafia O, and had him so low in my list in the hopes that over time a PR could read him for me.

I am town, but at least if I'm gonna get lynched, I know one person will still remember to look in the right direction next.

[popsofctown]

I'm getting epic indecision, so I just can't seriouspost in this thread anymore.  Un lieu of new information I'm not going to feel like anything but poetry until the day ends.

[Dsell]

Lynch me if you must, but what do you learn when I flip pro-town? This question is actually for everybody, but Joth's vote on me means nothing to me, whereas Dsell's does, so I put the question here.

I think this is an important question to consider with whomever we lynch. Obviously we don't have time to consider it with much length before the deadline, but maybe that's for the best so we don't have our whole day 3 planned out before day 2 is over.

Anyway...aside from the obvious analysis of your bandwagon and defenders, one thing that is interesting to me about you, Galz, is that when people made their lists, a lot of people said they were suspicious of you without putting you at the top of their lists/giving strong reasons for it. That seems like an easy way for a mafioso to disalign themselves from you, their partner, without actually putting you in much danger of a lynch.

I can't remember who said they dislike the lists because the mafia can just pick someone who is on everyone's list to try to lynch. This is true, but it's sooo easy for mafia to list their partners without too much concern. Everyone's list is going to be a little different and probably nearly everyone's list is going to be partially wrong. So I think the lists are a decent tool but I certainly don't think too much stock should be put in them. Heck, for those who I said I'm most suspicious of, I'm guaranteed to be wrong about at least one person, and that assumes that we have 4 mafia and I suspect all of them.

Besides, the chances that we are actually going to lynch someone who appears on only a couple people's list is just so small right now. And I really can't believe that we don't suspect ANY mafia at all right now.

And if you're lynched and you do flip town? Well I actually think that we gain a lot. You've done a ton of scumhunting, and we will be able to look at all of that and trust it all with 100% certainty (at this point especially I am unable to do that because it's looking to me like tons of mafia distraction). It's true that we would lose you for future scumhunting which would be very unfortunate, but losing a townie is usually unfortunate. But I'm not voting for Galzria because I think he's the best choice if he flips town, I'm voting because I think he's the most likely to flip scum of the main choices.

[Tables]

I'd like to say, I actually agree with what Frisk said about the O bandwagon. I pushed for it first, I know, and especially the fact he's inactive slightly discourages me.

Now we have all the lists... not much has actually changed. Frisk has appeared on nobodies list, which is a distinction only shared by myself and SFS. I find that somewhat interesting - is it a sign nobody really suspects Frisk, or (more likely) a mix of low suspicions and lack of information from lynching him? There's also a BIG jump in suspicion at some points: Robz and DSell also have only one vote, and the next lowest is then Glooble with 5.

One interesting tidbit of information is that I don't have Galz listed as being happy to lynch O. But he's already addressed that (e.g. above), so with that I think that makes everyone but SFS happy with an O lynch. Which... makes me uncomfortable. I've got a pretty scummy read on O, but I'm beginning to come around to the view it might just be his playstyle, which is admittedly a pretty unhelpful playstyle in general. I don't think O was under enough fire that the mafia would all be happy to bus him. On the other hand, a LOT of people put him as one of their top suspects, while a lot of others put him just on the bottom... perhaps at least one of those was a mafioso wanting to hedge with a semi-bus type vote, just so they can point back and go 'I wanted it' if they get lynched?

It's interesting how people were willing to jump onto this wagon. Well, some people, at least. And others aren't. I think we're all likely to get jumpy around now, so it's not surprising, as we have, what, a little over 12 hours? It's not long. But it's long enough.

I really need to make a note of WHEN people submitted their lists. It makes a difference as, for example, I think if someone was clearly not on a number of lists (e.g. Glooble, Axxle, Galz, Pops) then mafia would be more comfortable putting their teammate on if it wouldn't seem contradictory to their previous views. Townies were, I presume, honest about their lists, while of course the mafia were lying.

I really want to draw some kind of map showing connections of people willing to vote people, but I'm not sure how to do it easily and get information out of it.

Hmm... I'm less certain on O now, not because of O, but because of other's attitude to O. But this bandwagon hasn't grown THAT quickly I guess, and considering what I've seen... I'm comfortable with us finishing today with an O lynch.

[Galzria]

Lynch me if you must, but what do you learn when I flip pro-town? This question is actually for everybody, but Joth's vote on me means nothing to me, whereas Dsell's does, so I put the question here.

I think this is an important question to consider with whomever we lynch. Obviously we don't have time to consider it with much length before the deadline, but maybe that's for the best so we don't have our whole day 3 planned out before day 2 is over.

Anyway...aside from the obvious analysis of your bandwagon and defenders, one thing that is interesting to me about you, Galz, is that when people made their lists, a lot of people said they were suspicious of you without putting you at the top of their lists/giving strong reasons for it. That seems like an easy way for a mafioso to disalign themselves from you, their partner, without actually putting you in much danger of a lynch.

I can't remember who said they dislike the lists because the mafia can just pick someone who is on everyone's list to try to lynch. This is true, but it's sooo easy for mafia to list their partners without too much concern. Everyone's list is going to be a little different and probably nearly everyone's list is going to be partially wrong. So I think the lists are a decent tool but I certainly don't think too much stock should be put in them. Heck, for those who I said I'm most suspicious of, I'm guaranteed to be wrong about at least one person, and that assumes that we have 4 mafia and I suspect all of them.

Besides, the chances that we are actually going to lynch someone who appears on only a couple people's list is just so small right now. And I really can't believe that we don't suspect ANY mafia at all right now.

And if you're lynched and you do flip town? Well I actually think that we gain a lot. You've done a ton of scumhunting, and we will be able to look at all of that and trust it all with 100% certainty (at this point especially I am unable to do that because it's looking to me like tons of mafia distraction). It's true that we would lose you for future scumhunting which would be very unfortunate, but losing a townie is usually unfortunate. But I'm not voting for Galzria because I think he's the best choice if he flips town, I'm voting because I think he's the most likely to flip scum of the main choices.

Actually, I said that about lists, as Captain Frisk pointed out awhile back. And it's true, I don't like them. I refused to make one D1 because we weren't yet near the deadline and there was no reason to rush a consensus. Here, well, I would rather lynch than not, so it's a concession I felt necessary. Certainly not ideal, but...

Still, the one thing I don't want to see is me lynched, followed by a case against Robz. My argument with him was not a "you are misleading scum" argument, rather a "what you said is really misguided and faulty". There's a HUGE difference, and my fear is the Mafia trying to spin our argument into "Robz is scum".

[Axxle]

Yeah, forgot O was gone. 

@Galz, I thought you *were* saying that Robz was scum.  Thanks for clarifying.

[Captain_Frisk]

I'm getting epic indecision, so I just can't seriouspost in this thread anymore.  Un lieu of new information I'm not going to feel like anything but poetry until the day ends.

Unvote

Vote: popsofctown

I knew I should not have checked this thread again before bed.  There hasn't been new info for days, where did you expect it to come from?  You started list mania, and then have gone back to useless posting again.

Galzwagon folks - lets pop pops first, and galzria tomorrow if we are wrong.  I would rather kill innocent pops than innocent galzria, and I'm pretty confident one of them is guilty. 

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

New prediction:  we won't lynch anyone.

I'll check the thread in the hour before the deadline in the morning, and may be sorely tempted to sheep.

Question for all, including Jo:  How is it that we've STILL not lynched Jo?