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[Tables]

@Tables:  Can you explain the dichotomy between your assertions in posts #1923 and 1927 (sorry for the lack of quotes, I'm on an unfamiliar laptop with no ******* mouse but the built-in and I'm really having trouble getting everything to work easily).  In one of those two posts, you say (paraphrasing) "I don't think I'm lurking, I post 1 to 3 times a day almost every day".  In the other, you say (paraphrasing) "I dont post that often cause I'm not online often".  I don't see how both can be true, yet these assertions are only 4 posts apart.

The obvious reason (and what I meant at the time) was that when I'm online, I can easily post multiple times in a single session. In retrospect, I also realise I'm online more now, which is a change from before (but I'm still reliant on using my housemates laptop) when before I was getting on only once or twice per day.

Also, I'd say posting 1-3 times a day isn't posting that often. But it's certainly not lurking.

And finally I realised in bed last night my votes in that last post were confusing. My intent was to vote O to get attention to the fact he was being so scummy, then leave my vote on Joth at the end of the post. But I forgot to change the vote back to Joth (reread the last paragraph, it's clear that was my intent). The last post was supposed to add that to the end, but I realise it looked like I was trying to instead unvote and vote onto Joth, which doesn't make sense as my vote was already on him.

[Tables]

Okay, now read up to my last post. I hadn't even fully comprehended the bandwagon at the time of the last post.

I agree with Robz, but think he's exaggerated his numbers somewhat. I think there's almost certainly a mafia among the twice bandwagoners, but am not sure who it is. The whole debate with O has made O look even more terrible than he already was. Unfortunately I now don't have time for a full analysis, but my spreadsheet comments are: "Total failure of a defence w/ strawmanning (1942). Vote: Glooble (1955). Vote: Grujah (1974). Poor reasoning for defending vote (1989). More strawmanning a good argument (2005-6)"

In short, O's play has, since being called out on what should have been a single small mistake with my loyalty, become panicy and erratic. What's more interesting is he dismisses Robz arguments out of hand simply because of the exaggeration, but uses (totally serious) exaggerations of his own, e.g. in 2050 and also in e.g. 2031 he seems to think any theory involving him being mafia is 'crackpot'. Together with the posts I actually directly recorded for being terrible, this isn't exactly a good track record.

It's okay though. He made some good posts in day 1, which I recorded. This includes... wait, no, nevermind, I didn't see any good, pro-town posts of his in day 1 I thought were worth recording.

Vote: O

I've read tons of Tables posts today that looked like they seem scummy as mess, but since he is actually an outlier in the extra information I have on him as a townie, I always remembered not to bother with it.

I don't like this, because it's an accusation with no substance. I don't mind people finding me suspicious, if I can defend myself, but you've mentioned nothing here. I guess it's not really important, since I'm not in the firing line today, but, eh.

[O]

In short, O's play has, since being called out on what should have been a single small mistake with my loyalty, become panicy and erratic. What's more interesting is he dismisses Robz arguments out of hand simply because of the exaggeration, but uses (totally serious) exaggerations of his own, e.g. in 2050 and also in e.g. 2031 he seems to think any theory involving him being mafia is 'crackpot'. Together with the posts I actually directly recorded for being terrible, this isn't exactly a good track record.

I'm not quite sure when my play isn't erratic; panicy is some nice flavor text you added. I do not think any theory involving me as mafia is "crackpot" (though of course I know them false), just this 3-out-of-4 Bombshell by Robz. Mostly because if we followed it I believe the town has a chance of losing pretty quickly: Lynch grujah, and if he's town: Lynch Galz/O as per Robz theory, I'm town/Galz probably is town, and then because of people like Tables/SFS lynch the other "partner", and oh look, he's town and we're at 3 misslynches because of one theory.


"At what should have been a single small mistake involving my loyalty"

If it was a single small mistake, why did you immediately vote for me?

It's okay though. He made some good posts in day 1, which I recorded. This includes... wait, no, nevermind, I didn't see any good, pro-town posts of his in day 1 I thought were worth recording.
Vote: O

Honestly, I can smell the troll-bait. At the VERY least I provided a link to Talihandur's tells, which is more than you've done.
I feel the need in most games to respond to every vote against me, but since this one is so clearly personal instead of scumhunting I'm pretty sure I can just ignore it after this post.

[Captain_Frisk]

All right... that's alot of crazy $stuff for a Friday night.

RobZ's analysis of similarity between Grujah and Axxle1 band wagons is spot on - in that it is damn near the same wagon that mislynched on day 1.

Options are:

1. We're all town and were terrible at this game day 1.
2. There is mafia on this wagon and we're about to mislynch
3. There is mafia on this wagon bussing Grujah - and hoping we'll back out because the wagon looks too similar.

I had no idea when I started this wagon that it would end up looking the same - hence the unvote.  I've now gone back and read every post since my vote (#1966) twice.  Now I would consider my argument on lynching to be medium quality at best.  The gist of it is: he lurks, and all things being equal, he is a better mislynch than others.  This is a far weaker argument than everything against J, and Galz's argument against Pops.

Here are the things that stood out:

#1967 - Glooble gets on the bandwagon super early - sheeping my "read"  This is Glooble playing exactly the same way that has gotten him called scum in the past.

#1972,#1973,#1974 - BAM BAM BAM
Pops, Jonah, O all jump on the wagon within 7(!!!!) minutes.  Pops uses my argument.  J uses no argument as usual.  O provides no information - as per the O playbook.

#1977 - Galz points out that this is freaking crazy.  This post is the definition of hedging / fence sitting, which I don't have as much issue with as others (hell, my unvote is also hedging).  J points out as much in #1978 - hedging while placing the blame for this hedge on G.  O sheeps this hedge in #1979.  Pops sheeps the hedge in #1981.  We all feel terrible for this mislynch about to happen  Since we have so many people sitting on the fence - it can't be a scumtell.

#1980 - Galz joins the wagon - ostensibly for pressure purposes.

#1982/3 - RobZ shows up with 2 stone tablets and commands us to stop.  I especially enjoyed this:

I'd bet 3 or 4 of you are getting seriously outplayed by the 2 or 3 of you who are mafia.

Since I am not mafia, and I started the wagon, I'm wondering how I've been outplayed - but I can totally see his perspective.

#1985 - Glooble backs off

#1987 - RobZ points out that this bandwagon does not have a good track record.

O and RobZ have a little fight about how many mafia is on the wagon.  For the record - the starting point of my analysis was "at least 1 mafia on the Axxle1 wagon"

#1997 - Axxle2 - Real life drinking excuse for not voting.  Same scummy contentless post count inflating crap that got Axxle1 lynched (falsely - for those who might not remember what happened 40 pages ago)

#1999 - Jonah re-pushed the wagon with a SK theory. 

I'm standing by this lynch and waiting for the flip.

#2000 (WOOHOOOOOOO) - RobZ calls for an analysis of how scummy Galz, Frisk, Jonah, and Glooble are.

#2002 - Jonah points a semi FOS @ Robz.

#2003 - 90 seconds later: hedge on RobZ -> semi FOS @ CF.

#2005 - O starts up some distraction with a crazytrain vote on me.

#2007 - RobZ hints that he's ok with no-lynch

#2010 - Jonah FoS @ O.

#2013 - Galz (probably overly strongly) points out that RobZ has semi 8 / 12 people.  He overexaggerates a few points in my mind (RobZ, Axxle2) - and a slight exxagerations on others (DSell, Pops)

#2014 - Jonah wants to kill kill kill.  Doesn't realize that he's already been put on the group W bench.

#2020 - RobZ calls Galz out on #2013. 

However:

Dsell - No opinion one way or the other. But when I have 5 or so strong suspects, yes, he's safely acquitted.

There are 12 of us alive.  RobZ in this post points out that he has townreads on 7 of them.  Presumably he has a town read on himself (#8).  That leaves 4 people.  Who are these 5 strong suspects?

#2024 - O rejoins wagon.

- dick slamming contest between O / Robz ...

#2033 - Galz calls out RobZ on #2020

#2053 - Jonah FoS's O and Galz.

#2054 - Jonah reminds us that he was suspicious of RobZ.

#2066 - Grujah wakes up to find himself with a noose around his neck standing under a treebranch.

#2069 - Jonah wants to kill kill kill - dissects Grujah's not me post.  Jonah should know as well as anyone that it doesn't matter what you say when you're about to be lynched, it will be flipped right back in your face.

#2072 - SFS declines to join the wagon.  With SFS and tables not on the wagon - if you believe they are both town, the odds of a mafia lynch are very low.

Vote: Jotheonah - he keeps pushing for the kill - while throwing the FOS at everyone in the universe.

I don't like RobZ after this exchange either, but the only meaningful thing that Jonah did was tear apart Grujah's defense post.  Since I am inclined to think that lynching mafia is unlikely without the assistance of Tables / SFS, I read this as trying to incite town into a mislynch (which was oh - so - close) while simultaneously muddying the waters all over the place with fingers of suspicion.

[O]

- dick slamming contest between O / Robz ...

I laughed out loud at this (in agreement).

[jotheonah]

Sorry, Cf, did you LIKE Grujah's post? Did it in some way tell you he wasn't mafia?

[jotheonah]

Also, come on. Would a mafia be this obvious about FoSing everyone? That's a towntell, yo.

[O]

Also, come on. Would a mafia be this obvious about FoSing everyone? That's a towntell, yo.

Yes, mafia Jo would.

Unvote I do not plan on rejoining a Grujah wagon as both Tables and SFS are not onboard, CF's arguments, and the fact that Robz has muddied the meaning of his flip so terribly (before we actually flipped him, notably)

[Captain_Frisk]

Also, come on. Would a mafia be this obvious about FoSing everyone? That's a towntell, yo.

You did exactly the same things you accuse him of:

Suspicion everywhere, voting for other popular candidate. 

I don't like grujahs post - I discount it entirely.  What I don't like is a lynching wagon that doesn't include our most likely townies, and is the same damn wagon that mislynched day 1 - as robz points out.

[jotheonah]

False. A mafia pushes one wagon. A mafia would like to have at least one friend in town. I viciously attack my best defenders along with everyone else.

I'm just a townie with no satisfactory reads. And I'm very frustrated by this town's inability to stick with a plan.

Like I get "This wagon built too fast it must be scummy."  But in this case there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for the fast build = we're close to deadline, Grujah is unhelpful, informational lynch, good chance mafia. He was clearly the best chance of getting a lynch today. A lynch today, in general, is pro-town.  So all this stalling feels like "This wagon actually worked so it must be scummy." Which is an attitude that leads to no lynching. Which is bad for the town.

[popsofctown]

This is town robz. Town Robz has terrible reads and sticks to them, from what I remember.

Or he could be SK Robz. But probably town robz, and that's what makes me sad.

Don't know about terrible reads. Town Robz cleaned up MIII. I can quote from the MIII thread, but I did call Eevee and Volt on Day 1, before I died. If you'll remember, I was the one who first FOS Eevee. You voted that way, too, so you should remember.

In MI I didn't do too well, no. Though I did maintain theory was not mafia on Day 1, and I was right about that. I was wrong about tinas throughout.

In MII I was mafia.

You called out a trio and got 2/3. I'm pretty sure you also ended up voting on the D1 wagon but I need to check that again. I'm writing it down to a lucky guess during RVS as you didn't seriously pursue anyone you called in in your FOS's anyways.

2/3 is fantabulous brah.

[jotheonah]

Also, come on. Would a mafia be this obvious about FoSing everyone? That's a towntell, yo.

You did exactly the same things you accuse him of:

Suspicion everywhere, voting for other popular candidate. 

As Pops says, hypocrisy is not a scum tell. Also, when I did it I didn't have a bandwagon on my back. When I did have a bandwagon on my back, I voted for myself.

[O]

This is town robz. Town Robz has terrible reads and sticks to them, from what I remember.

Or he could be SK Robz. But probably town robz, and that's what makes me sad.

Don't know about terrible reads. Town Robz cleaned up MIII. I can quote from the MIII thread, but I did call Eevee and Volt on Day 1, before I died. If you'll remember, I was the one who first FOS Eevee. You voted that way, too, so you should remember.

In MI I didn't do too well, no. Though I did maintain theory was not mafia on Day 1, and I was right about that. I was wrong about tinas throughout.

In MII I was mafia.

You called out a trio and got 2/3. I'm pretty sure you also ended up voting on the D1 wagon but I need to check that again. I'm writing it down to a lucky guess during RVS as you didn't seriously pursue anyone you called in in your FOS's anyways.

2/3 is fantabulous brah.

Pops is too goddamn pro at this game. Same tone regardless of whats happening.

No, I'm not saying he's scum for this. There's no hidden meaning: Just that Pops is pro.

[Captain_Frisk]

Also, come on. Would a mafia be this obvious about FoSing everyone? That's a towntell, yo.

You did exactly the same things you accuse him of:

Suspicion everywhere, voting for other popular candidate. 

As Pops says, hypocrisy is not a scum tell. Also, when I did it I didn't have a bandwagon on my back. When I did have a bandwagon on my back, I voted for myself.

I was referring to day 1 wrt voting for other folks.  Today you did something worse - or mafia gambit.  I will not vote to lynch with you on the wagon, as that denies town information, but there is no circumstance in which self vote is protown.

As for hypocrisy - all I'm saying is that if grujah is scum for what you accuse him of, then so are you.  I don't think that it's a valid tell at all - other than you trying to force the issue.

Also, with the wagon being similar to day 1 wagon - what do we gain info wise from a grujah town flip?  Aren't we in the same boat with one less candidate?

[popsofctown]

And to tell you the truth, it isn't Robz's case that's starting to convince me, it's the amazing sensitivity and overreaction you two have displayed since he started spinning it.

Joth does good work in fits and starts.

[Captain_Frisk]

And to tell you the truth, it isn't Robz's case that's starting to convince me, it's the amazing sensitivity and overreaction you two have displayed since he started spinning it.

Joth does good work in fits and starts.

In this post that you quote, j never answers the question - which is - if you believe robz's theory - which does not include grujah as potential suspect - then why is he still voting for grujah?  and it's not like he's just not unvoting.  He continues to actively push for a kill.

[Voltgloss]

Vote Count 2-21B

jotheonah (3): Dsell, SwitchedFromStarcraft, Captain_Frisk
Grujah (3): popsofctown, jotheonah, Galzria
Glooble (1): Grujah
O (1): Tables

Not voting {4}: Axxle, Glooble, Robz888, O

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Lynch Deadline:  Monday, June 25, 9:59 a.m. EDT

[popsofctown]

I include pops because I still think him more likely scum than Galz. Pops has stayed while keeping his vote parked on Grujah, which reads worse to me than Galz's defending of the bandwagon. This could, however, simply be because pops went to bed at a semi-reasonable hour.

+10 derp points.

[O]

PST or GTFO Pops 

[jotheonah]

And to tell you the truth, it isn't Robz's case that's starting to convince me, it's the amazing sensitivity and overreaction you two have displayed since he started spinning it.

Joth does good work in fits and starts.

In this post that you quote, j never answers the question - which is - if you believe robz's theory - which does not include grujah as potential suspect - then why is he still voting for grujah?  and it's not like he's just not unvoting.  He continues to actively push for a kill.

Read more carefully. Finding the quote that answers your question.

@O As far as I'm concerned, Robz has spun a great theory - if Grujah flips town.  If Grujah flips scum it all kind of falls apart though.  So what I'd really like to do is table all this nonsense for tomorrow and get on with the lynch that a good portion of the town seemed willing to get behind.

Grujah's flip will paint tonight's events in a much clearer light, and it won't hurt the town too much.

[Axxle]

Vote: Galzria

His recent argument with with Robz smacks of the same crap that he argued in his earlier alleged "stir the pot" post when Robz made comments about Joth. 

I'm also looking heavily at O since his arguments against Robz's reads seemed more ad hominem than anything else.

For the record: I doubt there are more than 2 mafia on the Grujah wagon, Grujah is scummy enough and people are panicking so it probably won't take much prodding to get the same worried town to vote last minute.

[popsofctown]

O and Galz is probably either or.  They are both very, very scummy.  Lynching grujah and drawing conclusions about the two of them is one thing, but the other way around is better - pick out one of them as scum so we can conclude grujah is town.

Gonna look back and see who has jumped on in a way that strengthens that concitional

[popsofctown]

Probably O.  "I have to wagon at one point" was soooo not his attitude day 1. 

I'd like time to read Galzria anyway, and O seems to like to be inscrutable.

[popsofctown]

To be clear - if O is scum, Grujah is town, Galzria does not have an equally strong relationship there, so O is a preferable lynch.  Galzria is about as likely to be scum, maybe a bit more.

[Galzria]

Look, the two scummiest people itt trying to move wagons to town.