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[Grujah]

Also, vote O, for reasons in post before, it seems weird and odd to me. I am not that sure on j to hammer, and jumping out from not really following the thread to hammer is not fair. But will try to reading his posts in the morning. Little IsoDom now than than sleep.

[Voltgloss]

Vote Count 2-16

Galzria (1): popsofctown
jotheonah (5): Dsell, Tables, Robz888, Axxle, SwitchedFromStarcraft
popsofctown (1): Glooble
Glooble (1): O
Axxle (1): jotheonah
O (1): Grujah

Not voting {2}: Captain_Frisk, Galzria

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Lynch Deadline:  Monday, June 25, 9:59 a.m. EDT

[Axxle]

I hate that O is voting all the time but always staying clear from main bandwagons.

Didn't notice that before, good detective work.

[O]

I vote scum, not bandwagons.

Every time i've wagoned someone with no role knowledge they've been town, not scum.

Jo is obvtown.

[Galzria]

Alright gentlemen. What's the plan? This thread has been stalled for much too long. Every once in awhile something happens, there's a brief spark, and then silence. We're not forcing the Mafia to speak, and that is never going to get us anywhere. You're not going to just check back in and find a dandy little Mafia identifying post.

I'm not in a rush to lynch (I know Robz and Axxle want Jo's head and be done with it), but the deadline IS this coming Monday, correct? If we the town don't talk, the Mafia certainly aren't going to start generating conversation. So let's go. I don't care if every idea has been rehashed to pieces, we need to do SOMETHING.

So, Grujah posted. Didn't give much. SFS posted. Didn't give much. I haven't seen anything substantial from Glooble recently, and although I personally have little interaction with him this game, I can't really disagree with the arguments set forth against him.

I think there is merit in waiting on a decision regarding Pops. Investigative roles could search myself or him hoping to come out with a cleaner read on the situation. I have a tendency to ignore what our PR's can add to a game (M-II being my largest experience draw, and as we lynched the Cop N1, I never got a feel for what he could do first hand - although I note his success in M-I and M-III).

So that leaves me looking at Axxle and Glooble for now. There seems to be good cases for both, and although I lean towards Axxle being more likely of the two to be Mafia, I still feel there is a good chance Glooble is, and a lynch there would be much more enlightening.

So Vote: Glooble. Let's get some conversation going again. Make the Mafia have to work to hide.

[Robz888]

Galzria. Galzria, Galzria, Galzria. You are frustrating me.

I SAID we should vote for Glooble. I laid out a big case against him and I voted for him. And you responded by saying I was the Serial Killer, and then later revealed that as a ploy, and as a result my argument against Glooble was totally buried.

I'm back toward leaning on thinking it's Jo, and here you are, getting on all the other bandwagons but the one I want.

It seems to me you are further muddying the waters at the end of a long and puzzling day. And I wonder if this is what you've been doing all along.

[Galzria]

Galzria. Galzria, Galzria, Galzria. You are frustrating me.

I SAID we should vote for Glooble. I laid out a big case against him and I voted for him. And you responded by saying I was the Serial Killer, and then later revealed that as a ploy, and as a result my argument against Glooble was totally buried.

I'm back toward leaning on thinking it's Jo, and here you are, getting on all the other bandwagons but the one I want.

It seems to me you are further muddying the waters at the end of a long and puzzling day. And I wonder if this is what you've been doing all along.

I don't suspect Jo, and shouldn't have voted for him out of frustration. His play has been, as I said, irksome. But not scummy.

[Robz888]

Galzria. Galzria, Galzria, Galzria. You are frustrating me.

I SAID we should vote for Glooble. I laid out a big case against him and I voted for him. And you responded by saying I was the Serial Killer, and then later revealed that as a ploy, and as a result my argument against Glooble was totally buried.

I'm back toward leaning on thinking it's Jo, and here you are, getting on all the other bandwagons but the one I want.

It seems to me you are further muddying the waters at the end of a long and puzzling day. And I wonder if this is what you've been doing all along.

I don't suspect Jo, and shouldn't have voted for him out of frustration. His play has been, as I said, irksome. But not scummy.

You voted for him twice today and once yesterday.

[Galzria]

Galzria. Galzria, Galzria, Galzria. You are frustrating me.

I SAID we should vote for Glooble. I laid out a big case against him and I voted for him. And you responded by saying I was the Serial Killer, and then later revealed that as a ploy, and as a result my argument against Glooble was totally buried.

I'm back toward leaning on thinking it's Jo, and here you are, getting on all the other bandwagons but the one I want.

It seems to me you are further muddying the waters at the end of a long and puzzling day. And I wonder if this is what you've been doing all along.

Also, I neither believe your case was buried, nor forgotten. You seem to take issue with my vote on Glooble. Do you no longer believe your own case against him? I found it, asking with others, rather compelling. And outside of voting for Jo last night (which I should not have done), I've been pretty straight forward with my thoughts. I've voted for Pops, and I've now voted for Glooble.

I think your read on Glooble could be accurate. I think your read on Jo is most likely wrong, even though he has annoyed me just as much as he has you. Annoyance is not a scum tell. Otherwise I would've sworn O was Mafia in M-III..

You never explained, by the way, why Pops antagonistic play is "too obv to be Mafia", but Jo's antagonistic play is "obvscum".

Still, unless you have no faith in your own argument against Glooble, I fail to see why my voting for him should bother you?

[Galzria]

"I found it, as with others" ** Correction to mistype above.

[O]

Scummy:
Glooble (for making inane posts)
Grujah ("derp not bandwagoning townies is a scumtell")
Pops (For controlling the game)
CF (Policy-scummy read)
Galz (For agreeing with me)

Town-reads:
Dsell
O
Robz

helpless townie reads:
Jo
SFS

BRB finding out who else is in this mafia game that's alive

[O]

Tables and Axxle: obvscum because I forgot they were in the game.

[Galzria]

It's scummy to agree with you? Odd reason, but ok. Besides, you agreed with me insofar as Jo was concerned. I may have voted for him (which I regret doing), but my reasons were pretty much that while I doubt he's scum, he's driving me up the wall. Wrong reasons to vote for someone, I know, hence my unvote.

[O]

It's scummy to agree with you? Odd reason, but ok. Besides, you agreed with me insofar as Jo was concerned. I may have voted for him (which I regret doing), but my reasons were pretty much that while I doubt he's scum, he's driving me up the wall. Wrong reasons to vote for someone, I know, hence my unvote.

I've turned not-troll in M5, not M4 bro.

[Axxle]

I thought I made it clear earlier that I was also for a Glooble lynch.  It may tell us more about Galz, Robz, and Joth I think. 

I still think that their either both scum or both town though.

Joth, what's your read on Glooble? (If he's given it before please point me to it)

[Galzria]

It's scummy to agree with you? Odd reason, but ok. Besides, you agreed with me insofar as Jo was concerned. I may have voted for him (which I regret doing), but my reasons were pretty much that while I doubt he's scum, he's driving me up the wall. Wrong reasons to vote for someone, I know, hence my unvote.

I've turned not-troll in M5, not M4 bro.

But... But... I can't keep track of two O's at once!

[jotheonah]

I don't trust my read on Glooble, basically. I think I'm inclined to trust him more than I ought, because of twinniness.

So take this with a grain of salt: I've read him as newbish town. And his posting has gotten better as the game's gone on.

[Axxle]

I don't trust my read on Glooble, basically. I think I'm inclined to trust him more than I ought, because of twinniness.

So take this with a grain of salt: I've read him as newbish town. And his posting has gotten better as the game's gone on.

I'll take it with as much salt as I want to, thank you very much!

I also expected you to distance yourself from him with that question if you were scum.  I'm starting to think my vote is in the wrong place.

[Robz888]

You never explained, by the way, why Pops antagonistic play is "too obv to be Mafia", but Jo's antagonistic play is "obvscum".

Still, unless you have no faith in your own argument against Glooble, I fail to see why my voting for him should bother you?

The idea that Jo and Pops are playing similarly antagonistic games is ludicrous. Jo is a chameleon--he changes what he is doing/saying/thinking at the drop of the hat. He is waay to reactive. And confrontational. And directionless. And a liar about not caring whether he dies.

Pops is a consistent irritant.

Well, I had more faith in my Glooble argument before the twin-claim. It seems like you, and maybe another person or two, want to protect Jo. So either I have to trust me reading of Jo, or I trust you. (Unfortunately, I trust neither...)

[Voltgloss]

Vote Count 2-17

Galzria (1): popsofctown
jotheonah (5): Dsell, Tables, Robz888, Axxle, SwitchedFromStarcraft
popsofctown (1): Glooble
Glooble (2): O, Galzria
Axxle (1): jotheonah
O (1): Grujah

Not voting {1}: Captain_Frisk

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch

Lynch Deadline:  Monday, June 25, 9:59 a.m. EDT

[Galzria]

You never explained, by the way, why Pops antagonistic play is "too obv to be Mafia", but Jo's antagonistic play is "obvscum".

Still, unless you have no faith in your own argument against Glooble, I fail to see why my voting for him should bother you?

The idea that Jo and Pops are playing similarly antagonistic games is ludicrous. Jo is a chameleon--he changes what he is doing/saying/thinking at the drop of the hat. He is waay to reactive. And confrontational. And directionless. And a liar about not caring whether he dies.

Pops is a consistent irritant.

Well, I had more faith in my Glooble argument before the twin-claim. It seems like you, and maybe another person or two, want to protect Jo. So either I have to trust me reading of Jo, or I trust you. (Unfortunately, I trust neither...)

Did you miss the part where I was voting for Jo not 4 pages back? When he was at L-1 with C.F. All but likely to close him out? Yeah, thought so.

I'm not "protecting" him, I think he's a bad lynch. Pops thinks he's town. O thinks he's town. Glooble thinks he's town. I think he's town. Jo claims town.

But hey, we must all be protecting him.

Honestly Robz, when was the last time you saw Mafia members "protect" each other like that? Your suggestion is to ridiculous it bears little merit in a rebuttal. Did I ever try and shield you from suspicion? Were you ever even half as crazy and likely to be lynched at any moment?

I'm going to agree with O again.

"Derp, not pushing town wagons is a scumtell"

If it weren't for the fact that I really believe you to be town, your irrational push here and the way you're trying to get people to feel obligated to get on that wagon would feel very scummy.

Also, I never suggested Pops and Jo were playing similarly. I said that they are both playing irritating games that borderline scumminess. Both have been rather obvious and at the forefront of attention since D1. You draw the conclusion that a less experienced Mafia (Jo) is more likely than am experienced Mafia (Pops) to intentionally play the "look at me, look at me" gambit of hiding in public view. I really, really doubt it. If anything JO would not be this obvious as Mafia because he'd be to scared of getting called out. Pops would feel confident that he could brush aside the suspicion and continue to play in his style.

Lynch Jo if you must, fine. I hope he comes up Mafia. I just REALLY don't think he will, and I think there are a lot better targets. For one, the twinclaim to me makes it MORE likely Glooble is Mafia, not less. I'm not entirely sure why that would suddenly make a doubter of you after you put together your big, long case against him...

[Grujah]

Grujah ("derp not bandwagoning townies is a scumtell")

Well, it seems not aging with you is scummy as well. Ok, it might be a honest townie scumhunting on its own, not caring for "big mouth" players. OTOH, it might be a easy way to feign activity and still be clear when a misslynch happens. Definately a way to lurk without actually lurking. Could it be either of those? Undoubtedly, yes. Thing is, it seems to be a patterned behavior. That on its own is scummy. Easy to do and call it a playstyle. Really, just a thing I picked up, though it might be worth mentioning. I scimmed through some mafiascum games actually, and this actually isn't that uncommon mafia (or I had a really small sample). Kinda weird you got a bit jumpy there.

Alright gentlemen. What's the plan? This thread has been stalled for much too long. Every once in awhile something happens, there's a brief spark, and then silence. We're not forcing the Mafia to speak, and that is never going to get us anywhere. You're not going to just check back in and find a dandy little Mafia identifying post.

I'm not in a rush to lynch (I know Robz and Axxle want Jo's head and be done with it), but the deadline IS this coming Monday, correct? If we the town don't talk, the Mafia certainly aren't going to start generating conversation. So let's go. I don't care if every idea has been rehashed to pieces, we need to do SOMETHING.

Like how you insist that "Mafia doesn't talk, townies need to make them"  through out the post (which also fits cause you talk the most and that auto-towns you) and than:

So Vote: Glooble. Let's get some conversation going again. Make the Mafia have to work to hide.

So how exactly is this a big move that gets Mafia out of hiding?

[Captain_Frisk]

Lynch Jo if you must, fine. I hope he comes up Mafia. I just REALLY don't think he will, and I think there are a lot better targets. For one, the twinclaim to me makes it MORE likely Glooble is Mafia, not less. I'm not entirely sure why that would suddenly make a doubter of you after you put together your big, long case against him...

I can't speak for RobZ, but for me the twinclaim strikes me as totally unecessary as Mafia.  It's jumping out in the middle of the street and saying "look at me" well before there was any serious pressure on Glooble.  This is something you just suggested that inexperienced Mafia would NOT do.

I want to agree with RobZ that Galzria's Glooble vote is trying to muddy the waters, but it seems to me that Galz could just sit back if and do nothing if he really wanted to.

I also keep coming seeing Galz as "defensive" of J, with the L-1 vote as a potential bussing ploy.  (Hopefully it gets written off as J craziness, but it looks like J is going to get lynched anyway, Galz might as well get some town-cred out of it).  I was not willing to hammer J in a situation in which J was self voting, denying us information in the event that J flips town, but boy did I want to.

I want to vote for Galz / J, but I'm not confident in seeing pairs at this point.  If Galz is mafia - then I think J is a reasonable choice, but if we lynch J and he flips town, then I don't know what this tells us.  If I'm wrong on Galz - then we lynch someone who's reads I trust - except for this Glooble business... and this serial killer RobZ business...

J - one of the things that has consistently been pointed out is the difference in your play in this game and in Mafia II.  Clearly, Mafia III went wrong for you.  Can you care to explain why you are (as claimed town) playing so crazy in this game?

[jotheonah]

The explanations are all over the thread and they form a twisty but very reasonable progression of decisions. It's not as simple as "I decided to be crazy and here's why"

But let me summarize, off the top of my head, a few reasons for behavior that comes off weird:

- From the top I decided to play this game more casually, thinking less about each post
   - This is partly a function of my changing schedule. During MII I had a lot of time on my hands in which I could analyze, re-read, and post Walls o' text. During this game I have a computer-oriented 9-6 day job which lets me pop in and post things without feeling too guilty, but I would feel like a bad employee if I sat here at work re-reading the 70-page thread. So a lot of short, less-thought-out posts.
   - This is also partly an attempt to imitate O's more impish playing style, which sort of looked fun.
   - I guess the third thing, that I couldn't talk about before, is that while MIII was going, I had to play very carefully in there as SK and think carefully about every post. So I was drawn even more to just be fast and lose in here.

- That decision led me to do some stupid things, like the premature VT claim (which didn't strike me as a mistake at the time, but in retrospect I see why it's bad)
- Once I had done some stupid things and people were all after me, and pops told me my wagon was informative, I thought maybe the best thing was to let myself be lynched and hope that was more helpful to the town than me sticking around. The town didn't go for it.
   - Despite my willingness to be a sacrificial lamb, what I find to be the most frustrating is when I feel like absolutely no one is listening to me or engaging my questions. It's also kind of frustrating the number of no-win situations Robz has painted me into.  These things pushed me over the edge into crazy town yesterday (RL). I apologize for that, but man it happens sometimes. I get way too invested in these games.

- In the meantime I have oscillated between a "Fuck it I've already screwed up might as well just say whatever's on my mind even if it comes off scummy" playstyle and a "I'm determined to be a helpful townie and regain my credibility" playstyle, kind of depending on my mood and stress level. I think this has added to everyone's confusion considerably.

That was much longer than I meant it to be. But I hope it answers your question, CF.

[jotheonah]

*fast and loose