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[popsofctown]

Because I wasn't thinking of a VT claim as a role claim per se (it's just what everyone is assumed to be) it didn't even register as a controversial thing when I posted it. I just wanted to say "hey, now that I think about it I'm ok with being lynched if it helps the town informationally"

In that statement, if you believe it, is kind of an inherent VT claim, because why would a power role townie be ok with being lynched? So the making it explicit was a mistake, but, like, if you imagine that post without the role claim, it basically reads the same to me.

Does that answer your question?

Either way - bad decision dinosaur. My town strategy was pretty much to see what would happen if I didn't self-censor at all, on the theory that the mafia would self-censor a lot so doing the opposite would make me look townish. I think the moral of the story is no, that doesn't work.

It does work, it's a very powerful strategy to adopt.  It just doesn't work in that specific sphere, discussing whether you're a power role.  It would have been ten times better if you described your happy go lucky strategy without the explicit VT claim - perhaps you're a weak power role, and the thought still occurred to you, scum could still be unsure whom to shoot.

You do highlight an interesting aspect of mafia though, a cop is never capable of taking the game lightheartedly and risking death because he knows he's valuable.  This often causes him to spray survivalist tells that make him seem like scum.  In one theme game in particular, power roles were shuffled in a random (but crazily balanced) way, and I got both cop and vig.  It was the ultimate combo and I was soooo focused on surviving that I reached L-1 day 1.  I had to dayvig scum day 2 to convince people I was town.   

This isn't a caught up post just really wanted to encourage transparency.

[theorel]

Composed at post #946.  I won't review before submitting no matter what the forum tells me to do.

I'm biased...I think you're mafia, so I'm not actually reconsidering my position.  You've tried to pick apart my argument which makes me naturally want to defend it.  We could go back and forth, but what's the point?  You could ignore me, and I could read that as deflecting.  You could go black, and I could point out that you went away from a losing argument and make Robz vote for you.  There is no case in which your words have any value to me...if i make exceptions I'll just be persecuting personalities that I disagree with.  And you're not even under pressure yet.

this teaches me not to skim over very long posts; I missed this bit of ridiculousness. Mafia mistake or arrogant + bad town play to say "and make Robz vote for you"? Probably arrogant town

"so I'm not actually reconsidering my position"

Yes, yet again I'm defending Dsell, Sir Captain Frisk. This strongheadedness (which Dsell highlighted) really really bothers me.

Also in response to Robz's following post.

I'm going to respond to this real quick since it's obviously being misunderstood:  It was sarcasm.  Sorry, I thought it would be obvious.  The reasoning is as follows: If DSell backed down, he'd be going dark after losing an argument.  Robz stated that this was one of the things he looks for as mafia tell (admittedly from someone under pressure which is not how I would characterize DSell).  So if he goes dark, [sarcasm] Robz has to vote for him[/sarcasm].  It's a totally stupid argument which is why I thought it was obvious sarcasm.

As to the strongheadedness of not listening to the defender, I consider it less-so than Robz's strong-headedness of never changing his vote.  At least I'm willing to listen to others.

---
Re: Axxle-wagon.
-Axxle is being judged on his actions not his rhetoric.  Robz: you seem very clearly to judge words more than acts, and think of posts as evidence.  Not surprising you don't see this.
-The people joining the bandwagon seem to be reviewing the evidence and drawing their own conclusions.  Often citing different reasons for thinking he's mafia.  This reads especially townie, because good townie's are going to look for evidence not simply agree with others' evidence.  Mafia will agree with others where possible, to make the townie feel more united with them.

-Short story, the Axxle wagon seems like several people that may not agree with each other on specifics finding the same person suspicious.  They aren't a unified front excepting that they all think Axxle is likely enough to be mafia to merit a vote.

-Concerns, conclusions, and things to watch for:  If there are several mafia, I find it hard to believe that he won't get bussed.  I mean if they manage a joth lynch, and joth flips town, that'll look pretty bad.  If they're all opposed to Axxle, and he flips mafia, that'll look pretty bad too.  I'm a little worried Axxle is town, and the mafia are steering clear.  i.e. this is a town-wagon, but it's against town.  There are already 8 people suspicious of Axxle (Glooble, Tables, and me as current non-voters).  If he's town, and mafia just steer-clear they may need to supply only 0-or-1 votes and watch the fallout.  I'll review everything in the morning...I don't honestly think we'll hit on a more likely target, but I am of the opinion that longer days are better, so I won't push it, unless discussion seems to go downhill.

DSell, O, Robz, and clearly Axxle stand opposed.  Who else is in the game? (I'm a little tired from young child not willingly going to bed last night, and I am definitely not a night-person) 

@Green-any new comments? (specifically about current events, i.e. Axxle)

@Insomniac: forum issues and all notwithstanding, I'd still love to see your longer post.

@Grujah: anything?  You've been real quiet lately...let's see ah, you wanted more specific...Okay: what do you think of the current situation?  In addition, who do you think is scummy?  You didn't vote on jo, you're not weighing in on Axxle.  Forum's been down a lot lately, so I won't hold your silence against you.  You felt you were easily manipulated earlier...Well, I'd like to hear something original from you.  I'll give you the challenge I didn't give before but which Green took on of his own accord: who are the 4 scummiest-sounding players in your opinion (you don't even need good reasons).

[popsofctown]

brb looking at Axxle sketchiness

[popsofctown]

Does anyone else get this vibe from Theorel's post?

"Hey guys, I'll be lurking, but if you want to let me know your stance on everything I'll be sure to copy your thoughts exactly. Oh, and let me live to Day 2 and then I promise to keep up.  Really.  Pinky promise. 
Yours truly, Mafia XOXO"


@O: Someone asked how people suggest how to actively scumhunt, and this is one way.  Some humor is fine, but it gets distracting very fast.  That line of trollvotes was a big example of that.

Pre-edit: If I was mafia and saw that everyone was taking this game as a joke and not seriously I'd turn off any tactics I had and just join in on the fun.  What mistakes are you going to make if you do that? None unless your partners don't do the same and end up getting caught.

Pre-edit2: @Glooble: Creating bandwagons to get information is a very good idea.  It's what I tried to fake in Mafia I and ultimately got caught doing.

Too many preedits, this is after gloobles last post.

Post 359 is literally the first time Axxle says something is scummy or townish.  Worthy of note is that his early posts described joth's mafia claim as anti-town, not as a scumtell.  He doesn't perceive the VT claim in the same way, apparently, and that suggests he made an opportunistic decision to dislike the VT claim.

So this is post 359.  Note he asks, "does anyone else interpret this post this way?"  Even though this is analysis (weak analysis) he loses points overall for trying to gauge the viability theorel's lynch without voting him or putting his opinion out more firmly.  This is fifth grade stuff.

359 is the first time he does anything but theory.

i'll look at other stuff too to show you guys

[Robz888]

I don't at all believe that my case is "nonexistant", nor do I believe C.F.'s is. I'm not as familiar with the cases brought by J, SFS and... Theorel? Gloobel? I don't recall who has the 5th vote (as has been noted, the forum's rocky status has me slightly disorientated).

It's all well and fine if you wish to IGNORE the case, but saying it isn't there is flat out wrong. There have also been a few others who have voiced concerns our suspicions, but not voted. This is, in my opinion, the strongest "bandwagon" that's rolled, because it's the only one that  HASN'T seemed to have people jumping to get on just for the sake of a lynch. At this point, if Axxle were to flip Mafia, it would be extremely telling. If he were to flip town, there would still be good information to be gained.

I don't believe the case against axxle is non-existent. Rather, I am forced to draw that conclusion because not a single member of the Lynch Axxle multitude can even list a few bullet points for why we should suspect him.

Can anybody summarize? Write 150 words on it?

-Short story, the Axxle wagon seems like several people that may not agree with each other on specifics finding the same person suspicious.  They aren't a unified front excepting that they all think Axxle is likely enough to be mafia to merit a vote.

I agree that there is a surprisingly unified anti-Axxle group. It is especially surprising, given that not one of these people has responded to my request: Please just tell me why, specifically, he is the top suspect.

[Robz888]

Does anyone else get this vibe from Theorel's post?

"Hey guys, I'll be lurking, but if you want to let me know your stance on everything I'll be sure to copy your thoughts exactly. Oh, and let me live to Day 2 and then I promise to keep up.  Really.  Pinky promise. 
Yours truly, Mafia XOXO"


@O: Someone asked how people suggest how to actively scumhunt, and this is one way.  Some humor is fine, but it gets distracting very fast.  That line of trollvotes was a big example of that.

Pre-edit: If I was mafia and saw that everyone was taking this game as a joke and not seriously I'd turn off any tactics I had and just join in on the fun.  What mistakes are you going to make if you do that? None unless your partners don't do the same and end up getting caught.

Pre-edit2: @Glooble: Creating bandwagons to get information is a very good idea.  It's what I tried to fake in Mafia I and ultimately got caught doing.

Too many preedits, this is after gloobles last post.

Post 359 is literally the first time Axxle says something is scummy or townish.  Worthy of note is that his early posts described joth's mafia claim as anti-town, not as a scumtell.  He doesn't perceive the VT claim in the same way, apparently, and that suggests he made an opportunistic decision to dislike the VT claim.

So this is post 359.  Note he asks, "does anyone else interpret this post this way?"  Even though this is analysis (weak analysis) he loses points overall for trying to gauge the viability theorel's lynch without voting him or putting his opinion out more firmly.  This is fifth grade stuff.

359 is the first time he does anything but theory.

i'll look at other stuff too to show you guys

Thank you, stuff like this is what I wanted.

[theorel]

My case (different than others), is laid out mostly in post #760, but the gist of it was this:

When the game first began, I was asking questions of most the people online - Theory questions, sure, but still making them take a stance on issues - Axxle, above and beyond refusing to take part, actively discouraged my form of investigation and scumhunting as useless and a waste of time. In particular, the question I had been asking was along the lines of "What are your feelings on game length? With 3 weeks, we have "as much time as we want" to allow for investigation, or do you feel a quick lynch is good for the town if it presents itself?"

When Jo got up to 6 votes (and went no further), Axxle suddenly jumped in with his thoughts "Hey, lets get this over with. No need to drag things on" - Now hey, I don't disagree with this. As a matter of fact, I actively believe this is the best form of play. What I disagree with is his TIMING. He actively refused to take a stance early, and then threw that out there when it could have the most potential impact. Almost everybody else, I can refer back to how they feel, and hold them accountable to their actions now. But Axxle's LACK of accountability, more, his REFUSAL to allow for accountability, struck me as very very scummy.

Add in to that the fact that he was vote #5 on Pops, and vote #4 on Jotheonah (both times with relatively little reasoning), and it was enough for me to make my case and cast my vote. Others have come out with their own reasons, some I think are valid, some not quite so much. But his play, to me, has not been consistent with honesty that town has no reason NOT to have.

@Robz: did you miss it?  here's one...took about 5 seconds to find.

[Galzria]

My case (different than others), is laid out mostly in post #760, but the gist of it was this:

When the game first began, I was asking questions of most the people online - Theory questions, sure, but still making them take a stance on issues - Axxle, above and beyond refusing to take part, actively discouraged my form of investigation and scumhunting as useless and a waste of time. In particular, the question I had been asking was along the lines of "What are your feelings on game length? With 3 weeks, we have "as much time as we want" to allow for investigation, or do you feel a quick lynch is good for the town if it presents itself?"

When Jo got up to 6 votes (and went no further), Axxle suddenly jumped in with his thoughts "Hey, lets get this over with. No need to drag things on" - Now hey, I don't disagree with this. As a matter of fact, I actively believe this is the best form of play. What I disagree with is his TIMING. He actively refused to take a stance early, and then threw that out there when it could have the most potential impact. Almost everybody else, I can refer back to how they feel, and hold them accountable to their actions now. But Axxle's LACK of accountability, more, his REFUSAL to allow for accountability, struck me as very very scummy.

Add in to that the fact that he was vote #5 on Pops, and vote #4 on Jotheonah (both times with relatively little reasoning), and it was enough for me to make my case and cast my vote. Others have come out with their own reasons, some I think are valid, some not quite so much. But his play, to me, has not been consistent with honesty that town has no reason NOT to have.

[popsofctown]

Insomniac - Your timing is impeccable. Not lurking, just getting caught up.  Played golf this morning and this is the first time I've been able to read since confirming my role last night.  6 new pages, wow. Someone expressed concern that this would be longer than MIII, I suspect it will be very long indeed with 15 of us.

Voltgloss - Thanks for moderating this, with all you have going on.

fluff

Axxle - Thanks for the link to the two articles.  I found the second article to be particularly important.

slight townread (for me)

Couple of housekeeping things before I begin the substantive part of my post:
1) I am a newbie, having never played this game at all in any format.
2) I have created a temporary signature to define my abbreviations for people's names. If your name is not abbreviated in my signature, I will do my best to use it in its entirety.  I did this because someone in an earlier post used the salutation "@G", and there are 4 names in this game that start with "G".
3) I'm not going to read MI or MII (with the exception of checking the two starting posts, to verify the absence of the players in my first question below), and I will likely abandon my reading of MIII, which is currently in Night 1.
4) My gender is male, if it helps anyone avoid awkward choices of pronoun.
5) I am on EDT in the US, if that is useful info for anyone in evaluating posting patterns. (God, I'm such a data whore).

fluff

Now, on to substance:

@Theo, Gloob, Green:  You were not in MI or MII or MIII.  Have you played Forum Mafia before?  Have you played IRL?

That isn't substance...

After reading the second article that Axxle suggested, I am of the opinion that random voting on Day 1 is anti-town.  Day 1 is indeed a time for to be as non random as possible.  So, I'll be bold:

VOTE: O, because he will be voting randomly.

Pre-post addendum:  OMG, while I'm wrestling with this, another full page?  I started this literally one minute after #211.

Not original, and he complains later about O not addressing it.  We all know O's random, O most of all.


I really don't see how you can get a town read off this guy.  I'm not getting a strong mafia read off him but pops, can you explain a bit.  Or is it all just gut.

Here he discusses SFS.  He totally fails to guess what mainly gave me a townread on SFS, not even quoting his post about joking.  There's a reason I didn't always explain myself - to see who had a townie mind capable of thinking alike, and who didn't.  I think this whole process was faked - he already knows SFS is town.

[Galzria]

Haha, rofl. Whoops. Damn forum didn't give me warning.

[theorel]

@My previous post.  I was only pointing out a lynch posse's argument post that you missed...not citing that I agree with it.  I didn't reread before I posted, and I'm not doing so now.  As stated earlier I'll review in the morning.

@Galz: given this has happened a few other times...I wonder if forum doesn't warn for pure quote-posts.  I think the rest have been that too.

[Captain_Frisk]

I agree that there is a surprisingly unified anti-Axxle group. It is especially surprising, given that not one of these people has responded to my request: Please just tell me why, specifically, he is the top suspect.

Galz and I have already given you a decent concise post each.  Pops has given you some quotes - that you just as easily could have followed - Axxle's post history is a few clicks away.  Axxle is my top suspect because i do not consider J's "poor" town play to be mafia, or if it is, something I don't expect to last very long into Day 2.  He has given us some very clear and specific things to ding him on, and that strikes me as even play as that is even worse Mafia than it is as Town.

I am not enjoying seeing you and G on opposite sides of an argument.

[Robz888]

I agree that there is a surprisingly unified anti-Axxle group. It is especially surprising, given that not one of these people has responded to my request: Please just tell me why, specifically, he is the top suspect.

Galz and I have already given you a decent concise post each.  Pops has given you some quotes - that you just as easily could have followed - Axxle's post history is a few clicks away.  Axxle is my top suspect because i do not consider J's "poor" town play to be mafia, or if it is, something I don't expect to last very long into Day 2.  He has given us some very clear and specific things to ding him on, and that strikes me as even play as that is even worse Mafia than it is as Town.

I am not enjoying seeing you and G on opposite sides of an argument.

I am seeing the arguments being posted now. Perhaps I missed them the first time around. Anyway, I thought for a minute that the lack of response to my request for answers was possibly indicative of a mafia-led bandwagon against Axxle. I see now that there's more to the reasons that I previously thought.

But look, Axxle was a member of the Mafia in M1. I say he played pretty boldly, and changed his vote a few times in Round 1 (between TINAS, unvote, and theory). Ultimately, this was his undoing, as he should have just kept for lynching TINAS. If he were mafia in this game, would be play similarly?

[popsofctown]

sorry i got bored I'm not gonna cover the later quotes.  Work it out for yourselves.  He is watching the game instead of playing.

[jotheonah]

I agree that there is a surprisingly unified anti-Axxle group. It is especially surprising, given that not one of these people has responded to my request: Please just tell me why, specifically, he is the top suspect.

Galz and I have already given you a decent concise post each.  Pops has given you some quotes - that you just as easily could have followed - Axxle's post history is a few clicks away.  Axxle is my top suspect because i do not consider J's "poor" town play to be mafia, or if it is, something I don't expect to last very long into Day 2.  He has given us some very clear and specific things to ding him on, and that strikes me as even play as that is even worse Mafia than it is as Town.

I am not enjoying seeing you and G on opposite sides of an argument.

I am seeing the arguments being posted now. Perhaps I missed them the first time around. Anyway, I thought for a minute that the lack of response to my request for answers was possibly indicative of a mafia-led bandwagon against Axxle. I see now that there's more to the reasons that I previously thought.

But look, Axxle was a member of the Mafia in M1. I say he played pretty boldly, and changed his vote a few times in Round 1 (between TINAS, unvote, and theory). Ultimately, this was his undoing, as he should have just kept for lynching TINAS. If he were mafia in this game, would be play similarly?

The more I play here, the less I think metamafia is productive.

[Insomniac]

Pretty sure we aren't getting anywhere new and interesting until day 1 ends. I like mafia after day 1 alot more than day 1 mafia

[Glooble]

It's too obvious, and I don't think he's experienced enough to be double-bluffing us.

I would agree if Robz hadn't called him out on his vote. Now, I'm not sure.

It may be my fault.  The article I linked to said "bandwagons are good, pressure is good, votes are good" and he probably took that to heart not knowing the negative stigma of bandwagons we've created in the past few games.

Axxle is referring to this quote from the article he posted:

"Remember, bandwagons are good, pressure is good, votes are good. These are all things that create situations that are serious in game, and require reactions from not only the player who is being bandwagoned, but the other players in the game. Just because something is based on a low threshold for a vote does not mean it can’t be serious and have in game repercussions. By creating band wagons over a minorly scummy thing, you take the game out of the area of randomness, and into the realm of information. As people react to these bandwagons, as well as votes, you will get more information, which will create less random votes, and less random bandwagons. This is how we progress to better information. "

Grujah's quick jumping on the bandwagon pulled votes (mine included) to him. Axxle suggests that the articles he posted might be to blame. It seems to me like a really brilliant way to get new players to behave in a scummy way, and draw town attention away from the real mafia. Axxle came right out of the gate with those articles. I was taken in at first. I even commented that he was being so helpful trying to show the town how to scum hunt. But now it reeks to me of a calculated move to steer the tactics of the town, thereby making them easier to manipulate, while making himself look relatively clean.

Of course the gaping whole in this theory is that Axxle himself points out the article as a possible explanation for Grujah's behavior. If he were Mafia, I don't think he would have done that.

[popsofctown]

Please don't quote shea again

[Galzria]

Pretty sure we aren't getting anywhere new and interesting until day 1 ends. I like mafia after day 1 alot more than day 1 mafia

It would be nice to get a post longer than 5 lines long from you. Might help us get somewhere new.

[popsofctown]

Pretty sure we aren't getting anywhere new and interesting until day 1 ends. I like mafia after day 1 alot more than day 1 mafia

It would be nice to get a post longer than 5 lines long from you. Might help us get somewhere new.

No, he's doing it right, it's best for scum to say as little as possible.

[Galzria]

Pretty sure we aren't getting anywhere new and interesting until day 1 ends. I like mafia after day 1 alot more than day 1 mafia

It would be nice to get a post longer than 5 lines long from you. Might help us get somewhere new.

No, he's doing it right, it's best for scum to say as little as possible.

Does that change my point?

[O]

Pretty sure we aren't getting anywhere new and interesting until day 1 ends. I like mafia after day 1 alot more than day 1 mafia

It would be nice to get a post longer than 5 lines long from you. Might help us get somewhere new.

No, he's doing it right, it's best for scum to say as little as possible.

I thought we all agreed with Captain Frisk, and that scum were supposed to stay in the middle of post count/length? [/sarcasm].

I remain unconvinced by the strawman arguments against Axxle. Popsofctown is still my vote.

[Voltgloss]

SwitchedFromStarcraft, Tables, and Grujah searched the deceased Lord's Throne Room, hoping for the key, or clues, or both.

When that didn't work, they did it again. 

Vote Count 1-13

popsofctown (2) - Insomniac, O
jotheonah (4) - Green Opal, Robz888, Dsell, Axxle
Dsell (1) - theorel
Axxle (5) - Galzria, jotheonah, Captain_Frisk, SwitchedFromStarcraft, popsofctown

Not Voting {3} - Tables, Grujah, Glooble

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Lynch deadline: Monday, June 25, 9:59 a.m. EDT 

[Insomniac]

I don't do long posts on iPhone. Haven't been home for 2 days will try to make a big one tonight in the next 3 hours summarizing my thoughts though I don't have much.

[Galzria]

I don't do long posts on iPhone. Haven't been home for 2 days will try to make a big one tonight in the next 3 hours summarizing my thoughts though I don't have much.

That would indeed be nice, yes. I know you're capable of making strong arguments.