As I said above, an unweighted ranking or using Median wouldn' have changed the order of the $2 cards. So I didn't mentioned that. I will mention that if it would be a difference, you will see.I think the request was just to display the median and mode, not re-order the list. We just want to see as many stats as possible if it's not too much trouble.QuoteA weighted average is a nice summary statistic to get an overall rank, but it would also be nice to see if there is any correlation between card rank and iso level. If it's too much trouble to post a graph, maybe at least compute a correlation coefficient? Again, I'm not trying to be too demanding, as you're already doing a lot of work, but the more stats we see the better. :)It might be nice to see a graph of for each card, x axis is the isotropic level of the raters, and y axis is the rank.Nice idea. Let's see what I can do. But: All lists are still weighted by isotropic rank, so I think those graphs won't tell you anything new.
Maybe you'll see trends with the under/overrated cards.
Yes, my point exactly. I think it would be nice if you (Qvist) put the median and mode everywhere (2 extra numbers for each card won't kill anyone) but only comment on them when they are interesting...or at least median, pleeeeeeease ;DAs I said above, an unweighted ranking or using Median wouldn' have changed the order of the $2 cards. So I didn't mentioned that. I will mention that if it would be a difference, you will see.I think the request was just to display the median and mode, not re-order the list. We just want to see as many stats as possible if it's not too much trouble.
From the text: "If there's Mountebank in the supply and you're playing a 4-player-game, Moat might be a good buy." Might? In that situation, I think Moat is a MUST-buy, and I probably open moat/silver most of the time. "But if you're playing a 2-player game, buying Moat is mostly superfluous. Buying a trasher more against Cursers...is mostly the better alternative." You might be surprised if you simulate it in geronimoo's simulator. Just add a single remake or a single moat to the witch bot. Which do you think is better? Witch+Moat beast Witch+Remake 53-43. Now I'm not saying just getting a trasher instead is not better some (or even a lot) of the time, but it's not like witch games transitioning into big money is a major outliar situation.You're wrong if you think Geronimoo's simulator proves that Witch+Moat beats Witch+Remake. The basic Witch+Remake bot plays extremely poorly: it doesn't trash Witch when Curse pile is empty, it doesn't trash Curse+Silver when there is no good buy on the hand, etc. Just read the documentation for Remake.
What format is the dataset in? Why not just open the dataset and let people do whatever analysis they want?
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/develop.jpg) | #26 Develop (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 24.30 / Median: 25 / Mode: 26 / Standard Deviation: 2.5 Highest Rank(s): #16 (1x), #19 (1x), #20 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (13x) Develop is the worst $3 card. There is no doubt about that. Nearly the half of all players ranked it last and the deviation is pretty low for 26 cards. Only the top 3 cards have a lower deviation. A good trasher mostly has to be a good start buy. Develop can only trash one copper at a time without benefit. You get a Silver for a trashed Estate, which can put on top of your deck. That's at least really nice. Later in the game you get 2 cards for trashing one. This is something you only want if there are a lot of really good cards in the supply and most important in a specific price range. Because you have to gain a card which cost exactly one more and one less than the trashed card. Those cases are so rare. In the end of the game you want victory cards. So you can trash a $4 card for a Duchy and a Silver. But you have to put both cards on top of your deck. That is something you don't want if you're going for Provinces or Colonies. Developing a Silver in a Estate and Silk Road can be really nice for example. But you have to put them on your deck, really nasty. So it totally fails in being a good trasher. It only shines if there are a lot of good cards in a specific price range. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/chancellor.jpg) | #25 Chancellor (Base) Weighted Average: 22.97 / Median: 24 / Mode: 25 / Standard Deviation: 2.9 Highest Rank(s): #14 (1x), #18 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (5x) Chancellor is more than one point better than Develop, but still is second last. Its deviation shows: It's no surprise. It got #25 8 times. A few outliners can't let it get a better rank. Being in the Base Set, most players (like me) didn't got the use of Chancellor at first. Yes, it costs $3 like Silver and gives also 2 coins, but it costs an action for what? To put your deck into your discard pile? Why do I want to do that? You can get your recently buyed great cards faster! Yeah, that sounds great. But those great cards are mostly terminals and then Chancellor becomes a dead card. I think it would be a better card if it wasn't terminal. So it's only good for rare scenarios like Stash or Counting House. And if you want to get your recently buyed cards earlier, use cards that put these cards on top of your deck. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/woodcutter.jpg) | #24 Woodcutter (Base) Weighted Average: 22.39 / Median: 23 / Mode: 21 / Standard Deviation: 3.0 Highest Rank(s): #11 (1x), #19 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (5x), #26 (2x) Another card from the base set. It has a small lead over Chancellor. It got #21 7 times, but that's just coincidence and doesn't make the card better because only 4 players ranked it higher than #21. Its deviation is still low and shows the concensus on that card. It mostly fails the Silver test as its only use is its +Buy. So, you only buy it if you really need that +Buy for setting up your engine and there's no other card that provides that. You can use it very well for a Gardens or Silk Road rush, but beside of that, there's not really much to say about that simple card. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/fortune-teller.jpg) | #23 Fortune Teller (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 21.05 / Median: 22 / Mode: 24 / Standard Deviation: 4.2 Highest Rank(s): #11 (1x), #14 (1x), #15 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (4x) As there is no Attack card for $2, look at the worst attack in the game. Maybe because of that, it's the card with the third most last places. And as it is an Attack Card, several players gave it a mid-level rank. That may explain its clearly higher deviation compared to the previous cards. Its mode still is bad, 5 times it got #24. In games with trashers you want your Estates in hand and get rid of them, especially with Lookout Fortune Teller is bad. If you've trashed them, Fortune Teller just cycles through your deck, so your opponent mostly profits from your attack. In Tournament and Tunnel (with assistance of Inn, Young Witch or Vault) games you help your opponent even more. And in all other occasions there are mostly cards that soft counter top-decked victory cards or get profit from them by discarding. If those cases all don't exist, Fortune Teller might be a good buy, but those cases are very rare too. It gets better in the end game, but in the end game mostly you don't waste your buy for a Fortune Teller. And in comparism to Rabble which can be very nasty, Fortune Teller doesn't even get more benefit if you play two or more in one turn. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/workshop.jpg) | #22 Workshop (Base) Weighted Average: 20.58 / Median: 22 / Mode: 23 / Standard Deviation: 3.7 Highest Rank(s): #13 (1x), #14 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (2x), #26 (1x) And there's already the third card from the base set with only one card left to come. It is just a little bit higher than Fortune Teller, but that may result from a lot of players that seem to love it. Surprisingly for me it got 8 times higher than #20. 5 times it got #23. You must ask yourself: How many $3 or $4 cards do I want in my deck. With Gardens in the supply, you may answer "as many I can get". Silver, Gardens, Estates and more Workshops are all good cards. But in all other situations you want $5 cards and Gold. And in comparism to Ironworks where you at least get benefit and isn't terminal if you gain action cards, it's a "wasted" action. The only cards that you want as many you can get may be Tournament, Caravan, Conspirator and any Village + card drawer (Envoy/Smithy). But for all you have to spend your action and you have to be sure there isn't another terminal action you want to play too. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/oracle.jpg) | #21 Oracle (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 18.33 / Median: 20 / Mode: 20 / Standard Deviation: 4.8 Highest Rank(s): #9 (1x), #10 (1x), #11 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #26 (3x) Here's the second Hinterlands card and the second attack in the list. But we made a big jump and have left the really bad $3 cards and reached the mostly bad cards. Only 2 cards have a higher deviation. That may result from little experience as it is a relatively new card or really little consensus. It got #20 6 times, but it has 3 last places too, many for a #21 ranked card. At least you can use the spy effect for yourself before you draw 2 cards, so you have two chances for your 2 cards which is neat. But you draw still only 2 cards what is still not very good if you use it in an engine. If you use it as a Big Money addition and there's no better card drawer in the supply, this may worth a buy as you still have the additional attack part. The problem with the attack is - like Spy - the little damage you do with messing up the top cards. The luck factor is high and you have to make hard decisions. Do you want to make your opponent discard the Silver and Estate? It really depends on the cards he have in hand, but you don't know that. And if you choose to put them back on top, he may even choose the order, another help for him. On the other side, it's great if you can discard two Golds. So, the attack part is weak, mostly you buy it because you need the +2 cards with the minimized draw luck. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/smugglers.jpg) | #20 Smugglers (Seaside) Weighted Average: 18.09 / Median: 17.5 / Mode: 19 / Standard Deviation: 4.3 Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #10 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #24 (1x), #25 (2x) It's only a little bit higher than Oracle, but it's Median shows it deserves to be ranked higher. 7 times it got #19 and only another 7 times it got #20 or lower. With Smugglers the luck factor is high too. If your opponent has bought a card which you don't want, it's a dead card, especially later in the game where he buys only Provinces. And with Smugglers in your deck, you have to commit to the strategy of your opponent and mostly don't get better than him. Smuggle a Gold early or smuggle an additional Duchy in the late game is really nice, but with a supply with many terminals, you rather buy the good terminals and money instead of wasting your action for getting another Silver or another terminal you won't be able to play. But if there are many cantrips and you're going to build a neat engine, Smugglers can be a good buy. And if you're not going first you can compensate this disadvantage. Kings Courting a Smugglers can also be very strong in a good running engine. We can say, Smugglers is very board-dependant and can be a very good buy on some boards, especially if you're not going first. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/shantytown.jpg) | #19 Shanty Town (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 17.31 / Median: 17.5 / Mode: 12 / Standard Deviation: 4.4 Highest Rank(s): #10 (1x), #11 (1x), #12 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #24 (2x), #25 (1x) Shanty Town has a really high mode, but that's just coincidence as most of the ranks are way lower than #12. It's median is the same as Smugglers and it's the first card where the unweighted average would have caused a change in order. It would have been a little bit lower than Smugglers. Instead it got a little bit lower than the next card, that was really close. And it is the first card of 5 that are really close together. Shanty Town is a very problematic village. If you want villages you have many terminals and want to build an engine. Shanty Town is bad as it only gives you +2 Actions and is actually worse than Native Village for example. If you want the +2 Cards for a Big Money strategy, the +2 Actions are wasted. And if you have multiple Shanty Towns in hand and no terminals, it's even worse. The best use is to minimize bad draw luck, when you have many terminals, but have the bad luck to not draw them with your village. Then you have a second shot to draw them with your +2 Cards. And if you have 2 Shanty Towns and 1 terminal in hand, it's not bad after all. Play your first Shanty Town, then your terminal and then you can play the second one and hopefully draw more terminals. But the raw benefit is in this case the same as you would get out of a "normal" Village. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/wishingwell.jpg) | #18 Wishing Well (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 17.28 / Median: 18 / Mode: 19 / Standard Deviation: 4.0 Highest Rank(s): #9 (1x), #10 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #22 (3x), #25 (1x) It was very close. But WW managed to beat Shanty Town. The median is even lower than Smugglers and Shanty Town, but the concencus is higher as only one player ranked it really low and many players gave it a relative high rank. Not many players ranked it on the same rank, it got #19 4 times. Wishing Well is a very interesting card, but of course very luck-dependant. Ok, it can never hurt, but in most of the decks it's just a cantrip and you may have better bought a Silver. Another problem is that you have to guess the second card, so that cards like Spy, Lookout that seem to synergize don't work. But Cartographer for example works really well. Then it can be a guaranteed cheap Laboratory. And in some decks you only buy a few different cards, so you can maximize your probability. And if you're really good with card counting, this is really a good card if there are few cards left in your draw pile. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/greathall.jpg) | #17 Great Hall (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 16.75 / Median: 16.5 / Mode: 13 / Standard Deviation: 4.5 Highest Rank(s): #10 (2x), #11 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #25 (2x), #26 (1x) It's the third card from Intrigue in a row. I mentioned earlier, that cards that are very good opening buys and bad later in the game are very difficult to rank and therefore have a high deviation. The same applies to victory cards. You will see that nearly all victory cards have high deviation. Great Hall is no exception. It got a lot of low ranks, it even got last one time. The mode here has little significance again as it got #13 only 4 times. There is not much to say to Great Hall beside how difficult it is to rank. It's an Estate that don't hurt your deck, so that's really nice. And you can buy it early if you have an additional buy and $3 left and don't need another Silver. It also supports Silk Road strategies nicely. You can even use Throne Room or King's Court with it for additional benefit if you're really desperate. It can enable Conspirator chains and other rare cases where another cantrip is useful. The best combo might be with Ironworks where you can pick it up and get a cantrip bonus. But it's never a card you use for your strategy, instead you buy it if you have $3 left and don't need more money, then you're glad to pick another VP. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/oasis.jpg) | #16 Oasis (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 16.35 / Median: 15.5 / Mode: 15 / Standard Deviation: 3.3 Highest Rank(s): #10 (1x), #12 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #22 (2x), #23 (2x) Within those 5 cards that are very close together Oasis is second but it was very close. As a middle-ranked card it has a surprising low deviation and it got #15 8 times. At first I read it as "+1 Action $1", basically a Copper. But it's much better as you get money out of your victory cards or curses, like Vault or Secret Chamber do. It's limited to one card, but it is a cantrip. It's not a very strong card, but it is a very nice addition to each strategy, especially if there's no heavy trashing possible. If there are hand-size reducing attacks on the board, Oasis is of course rarely a good buy. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/blackmarket.jpg) | #15 Black Market (Promo) Weighted Average: 16.29 / Median: 15 / Mode: 13 / Standard Deviation: 4.8 Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #8 (1x), #9 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #23 (1x), #24 (1x), #26 (1x) Here's your first promo with a very high spread of ranks. It got #13 4 times, but even got last once. Like Oracle it has the third highest deviation. It's hated by many players as it has a very high luck factor. You may draw in turn 3 the only curse-giving attack in the game, but you may also draw Treasure Map, Fool's Gold and Peddler or Trading Post. Or you draw 3 potion cost cards when you don't have a Potion in play or even in your deck. Playing your treasures in the buy phase can lead to many confusing rules questions, but can also lead to the well-known Tactician + Black Market combo where you can discard your hand in a Tactician turn with another Tactician after you've played all your treasures with Black Market. Many Cornucopia cards also benefit from the diversity you add to your deck by buying many cards from Black Market. The most famous combo may be Fairgrounds + Black Market where Fairgrounds can easily be worth 6VP but even 8VP or more are possible. But also cards like Harvest or Menagerie benefit from such diverse decks you can get from Black Market. So when do you really want to buy a Black Market when there's no Fairgrounds or Tactician in the supply? Either you know there are many good attacks in the Black Market pile and don't want your opponent get them or you don't want to win at all costs and just have fun playing with it and your friends and rely on your luck. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/traderoute.jpg) | #14 Trade Route (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 15.38 / Median: 15 / Mode: 17 / Standard Deviation: 4.3 Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #8 (1x), #9 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #21 (1x), #22 (1x), #23 (1x) As there are no $2s in Prosperity, here is your first card from that expansion. It got #17 4 times and has a very wide range of ranks. Why? It's not a very good trasher as a opening buy as you don't get enough benefit until the end of the game (beside the buy). It's better if there are additional victory cards in the supply, especially action/victory cards like Island or Nobles that get bought earlier, but still, as a trasher it's no good opening buy. Buying green cards earlier just to get more benefit is rarely a good decision as your opponent may buy Trade Routes too and get the same benefit without clogging up his own deck. Mostly you buy it if it's the only source of +Buy and you really need that +Buy and later in the game where you're going green and it's really a neck-and-neck-race, so Trade Routes are now worth $3, $4 or even more. Then they can be really powerful. So, some of you may have ranked it as opener, the other players may have ranked it as strong card in the later game. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/loan.jpg) | #13 Loan (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 14.22 / Median: 13 / Mode: 12 / Standard Deviation: 5.2 Highest Rank(s): #7 (1x), #8 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #23 (2x), #25 (1x) Here's the next Prosperity card and the next trasher. It got #12 4 times, but it has the highest deviation of all $3 cards. What may be the reason? Really, I don't know. For me it's a mediocre card or even better. Just like Lookout you can trash without spending an action, that's always great. It also gives at least one coin which is no big deal, but is still better than Trade Route. The biggest problem is the luck factor as it may find every time your only Silver in your deck which you even can't play in your next turn (and may discard all your good terminals at the same time) and it's limited to treasure cards and therefore basically to Copper. So it has advantages and disadvantages and some may evaluate the advantages higher while others seem to do it vice versa. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/village.jpg) | #12 Village (Base) Weighted Average: 14.10 / Median: 13.5 / Mode: 18 / Standard Deviation: 4.6 Highest Rank(s): #6 (2x), #7 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #20 (2x), #22 (2x) That's the best $3 card from the base set and the last card before the big gap to the good $3 cards. It was close but it got higher than Loan by 0.12 points. It is the first card that got #6, but has still a lot of low ranks. It was #18 5 times. It seems many had problems ranking the vanilla village. How do you rank a card that does nothing beside giving an additional action? It's a card that is important for all engines, but is useless if "Big Money" is the dominant strategy. The low ranks may come from Big Money players and the high ranks from engine builders. Am I right? |
As a new player I am finding this project very interesting and educational, thank you!Thank you.
How about this -- I just upped the max characters to 200K characters/post. I don't want to make it truly unlimited for fear of abuse, but do you think 200K is enough?Yes of course. No problem. I just merged the posts. Thank you.
Really? The $2 list was pretty good... but seriously guys? That list couldn't be much more wrong if it tried. You all suck.Don't take it personally, but IMO there are only two possibilities, either the majority is wrong or you are.
Edit: Although saying that, I've got faith in the top 11. Only two of mine have gone already so it could still turn out alright, and one of them was Village which I had at 11, and it got 12, so that's no problem. Still waiting for my 20 to come out though...
Really? The $2 list was pretty good... but seriously guys? That list couldn't be much more wrong if it tried. You all suck.Don't take it personally, but IMO there are only two possibilities, either the majority is wrong or you are.
Edit: Although saying that, I've got faith in the top 11. Only two of mine have gone already so it could still turn out alright, and one of them was Village which I had at 11, and it got 12, so that's no problem. Still waiting for my 20 to come out though...
I initiated to do that list exactly for everyone to rethink your opinion on all cards. What cards don't you agree with? Tell us your opinion so we can discuss it.
The only card I don't agree with is Black Market being so high with the reasons described in my post. And you?
And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For $3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst $3 card.
And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.
And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.
Scheme?
And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.Tunnel?
And then, of course, there's the card that I ranked at number 20 that hasn't come out yet. I can understand why some people would vote it highly, but I just haven't got as much good use out of it as you'd first think looking at the card. I'll happily admit that it looks amazing, but in practise it's mostly a wasted buy except in a few specific cases.Tunnel?
"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For $3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst $3 card.
I agree completely.
I mean, compare it to Smithy. It draws one card more, but Oracle can draw selectively to some extend (so it somewhat favors quality over quantity). This is of course weaker, but it costs less and has a decent attack as added bonus.
It's not a game dominating card (though Oracle/Money is not bad at all), but way better than #21.
However, I've not voted here, so I'm not in a position to complain. Fortune Teller and Woodcutter would have been also quite low on my list, simply because something has to be there and most other cards are just a bit better.
"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.
Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more. It's a huge difference.
"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For $3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst $3 card.
I agree completely.
I mean, compare it to Smithy. It draws one card more, but Oracle can draw selectively to some extend (so it somewhat favors quality over quantity). This is of course weaker, but it costs less and has a decent attack as added bonus.
It's not a game dominating card (though Oracle/Money is not bad at all), but way better than #21.
However, I've not voted here, so I'm not in a position to complain. Fortune Teller and Woodcutter would have been also quite low on my list, simply because something has to be there and most other cards are just a bit better.
Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more. It's a huge difference.
Ah, but even the simulators (!) show that BM/Oracle is superior to BM/Smithy. And they necessarily play Oracle sub-optimally. Oracle is actually a power card."1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.And then there's Oracle at 21... wow. Yeah, the attack isn't the best in the world, but man it feels good when you can discard your opponent's Witch and Gold. But that's not even the best part of the card. +2 cards isn't great, no, but you've got a fair bit of control over what those 2 cards will be. And if you discard the first two, you've just got yourself 4 cards worth of cycling. For $3. With an attack included. Early game I often discard 2 Coppers and draw Copper, Estate instead simply because that gets me to the Gold that I just bought even quicker. I mean, I didn't have Oracle in my top 10 or anything... but there is no way it's the 6th worst $3 card.
I agree completely.
I mean, compare it to Smithy. It draws one card more, but Oracle can draw selectively to some extend (so it somewhat favors quality over quantity). This is of course weaker, but it costs less and has a decent attack as added bonus.
It's not a game dominating card (though Oracle/Money is not bad at all), but way better than #21.
However, I've not voted here, so I'm not in a position to complain. Fortune Teller and Woodcutter would have been also quite low on my list, simply because something has to be there and most other cards are just a bit better.
Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more. It's a huge difference.
Sometimes Fortune teller is better than a single rabble.
Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game
Hm... looks like I've overrated Chancellor, Workshop and Oasis, while underrating Black Market and Village.
Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game
I agree with like 95 percent of what you're saying here, but... Fortune Teller is far from the worst attack in the game. Thief, Noble Brigand, Pirate Ship, Saboteur and possibly Bureaucrat too all say hello.
Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game
I agree with like 95 percent of what you're saying here, but... Fortune Teller is far from the worst attack in the game. Thief, Noble Brigand, Pirate Ship, Saboteur and possibly Bureaucrat too all say hello.
What does it matter how good Saboteur would or wouldn't be if it was a full $2 cheaper? Fortune Teller is clearly a much much better card than Saboteur. It's a lot better than Thief and Noble Brigand too, and certainly better than Pirate Ship in 2p games at least.
#13 Loan (my rank: #22): Okay, so you want me, to buy a Copper instead of a Silver so I can trash my Coppers??? Are you nuts? This is the 2nd (after Develop) worst trasher in the game! Unless you have absolutely no other choice, it is a big NO and there are many boards, where Loan is the only trasher, and it is still SO SLOW, you don't want to waste time for buying it over Silver. Compare it to other "coppertrashers" - Moneylender gives you $3, Spice Merchant gives you +2cards/+1action. This poor guy gives you a Copper. No, thanks! (I know that Moneylender and SM trashes the Copper from your hand, so they give you a virtual "-$1", but at least you KNOW that you gonna trash the Copper, Loan can show you a Gold)There are a couple subtle things about loan that make it better than Moneylender and Spice Merchant, imo.
It compared to courtyard like cellar does to warehouse. Theory would hate it :)Quote"1 card more" is also the difference between Smithy and Moat.
Really, Smithy reads, draw my replacement card, then 2 more, and Moat/Oracle reads, draw my replacement card, and 1 more. It's a huge difference.
Maybe one should compare it more to Courtyard?
Ah, but even the simulators (!) show that BM/Oracle is superior to BM/Smithy. And they necessarily play Oracle sub-optimally. Oracle is actually a power card.Superior in what way? I have tried and found that it does not beat it heads-up.
Note that I, too, consider Bureaucrat to be more useful than Fortune Teller, though I'm having a difficult time exactly articulating why, and would be curious to hear other folks' thoughts.
Superior in what way? I have tried and found that it does not beat it heads-up.
Comparing Fortune Teller to Bureaucrat seems interesting, as both are terminal actions that sorta do the same things (giving you $2 and topdecking the opponent's green), but obviously go about them in quite different ways. Fortune Teller gives you +$2 right away; Bureaucrat gives you a Silver in your next draw. And Fortune Teller digs through the opponent's deck for a green, while Bureaucrat hits them again with a green they already have in hand.1) Because the attack does hurt more if you're putting stuff from your hand onto your deck, by slowing your cycling.
That said, Bureaucrat "must" be better than Fortune Teller because it costs $4 instead of $3. Discussion so far in this thread seems to agree with that conclusion. Yet Bureaucrat does have some inarguable drawbacks - it doesn't increase your buying power in the turn you actually play it (unless you sneak it into the middle of a +Actions/+Cards run), and if your opponent isn't holding green its attack has no effect. So what is it about how Bureacrat does things that makes it better than Fortune Teller? Is it that important to have a card breeding Silvers without you having to buy them (and if so, why are things like Workshop and Explorer looked down upon)? Is it that much more effective to hit your opponent twice with a green they already have in hand, despite the risk your attack may whiff if their green is all in their deck?
Note that I, too, consider Bureaucrat to be more useful than Fortune Teller, though I'm having a difficult time exactly articulating why, and would be curious to hear other folks' thoughts.
@DrHades
But absolute includes the cost. If there was a card "Your opponent trashes a Province" for $24, that would be the worst attack in the game. Exactly because it costs $24.
Well back when I did it, I put less time and effort into the oracle bot than you did. But just now, using the ones in geronimoo's simulator (your oracle and my smithy), smithy wins 49-42.Superior in what way? I have tried and found that it does not beat it heads-up.
In that it wins heads-up.
What bots are you using?
When you hava $5 and one buy in game, then all the cards that have $5 or less are exactly $5 now. You won't buy Menagerie over Lab just because it is cheeper - the cost just don't matter right now. This is the reason why comparing cards without the cost makes perfect sence, are we on the same page now? :)And when you have $4 and one buy in game, then all cards costing $4 or less cost $4, and all cards costing $5 or more cost $infinity...
As long as you understand Qvist didn't mean it the way you mean it, and no one else means it in that way either, then I think we're clear!
Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game
I agree with like 95 percent of what you're saying here, but... Fortune Teller is far from the worst attack in the game. Thief, Noble Brigand, Pirate Ship, Saboteur and possibly Bureaucrat too all say hello.
I think you are wrong. Bereaucrat is just better. Thief, Noble Brigand and Pirate Ship are all very good in 3+ players, so you cannot purely say that they are worse (although I made my lists mainly for 2p game). And Saboteur? Can you imagine Saboteur costing $3?
Well back when I did it, I put less time and effort into the oracle bot than you did. But just now, using the ones in geronimoo's simulator (your oracle and my smithy), smithy wins 49-42.Superior in what way? I have tried and found that it does not beat it heads-up.
In that it wins heads-up.
What bots are you using?
<player name="Oracle"
author="WW"
description="The optimized Oracle bot that buys no other actions.">
<type name="Province"/>
<type name="Optimized"/>
<type name="UserCreated"/>
<type name="BigMoney"/>
<type name="Generated"/>
<type name="TwoPlayer"/>
<type name="Bot"/>
<type name="SingleCard"/>
<buy name="Province">
<condition>
<left type="getTotalMoney"/>
<operator type="greaterThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="16.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Duchy">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Estate">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Gold"/>
<buy name="Duchy">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Oracle">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Oracle"/>
<operator type="smallerThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="1.0"/>
</condition>
<condition>
<left type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Treasure"/>
<operator type="greaterThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="6.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Oracle">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Oracle"/>
<operator type="smallerThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="2.0"/>
</condition>
<condition>
<left type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Treasure"/>
<operator type="greaterThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="9.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Oracle">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInDeck" attribute="Oracle"/>
<operator type="smallerThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="3.0"/>
</condition>
<condition>
<left type="countCardTypeInDeck" attribute="Treasure"/>
<operator type="greaterThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="16.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
<buy name="Silver"/>
<buy name="Estate">
<condition>
<left type="countCardsInSupply" attribute="Province"/>
<operator type="smallerOrEqualThan" />
<right type="constant" attribute="4.0"/>
</condition>
</buy>
</player>
Using this improved bot, I get as close as 44-47 (or 48 depending on the batch):Code: [Select]<player name="Oracle"
author="WW"
description="The optimized Oracle bot that buys no other actions.">
But your smithy bot is significantly better than what I'd tested against.
However, seeing as the sim misplays oracle probably much more than it does smithy, who knows which is better?
I can't help but feel like the blurb about develop has the idea of the card all wrong. You say that a trasher has to be a good beginning game card, but that's just because all previous ones have been. With the top-decking of the two cards you get it feels very much like a mid/late game card. You can trash your $4 into a Duchy if you really feel like you need to, or you can trash it into a Village/Torturer, or a Fishing Village/Wharf, or your $5 into a GM or Goons/Throne Room, or a $6 into KC/Mountebank or Torturer or whatever. I'm not saying that necessarily makes it that good of a card at all, just that that seems to be more of the purpose of it, rather than an early game trasher or a late game victory card getter.Yeah, Develop may not be designed as a opening trasher. It may have gotten so low because everybody thinks so and compares it to other trashers. The problem with Develop still is the same. There are rare scenarios where Develop shines as there have to be good cards in a specific price range.
Fortune Teller is the worst attack in the game
I agree with like 95 percent of what you're saying here, but... Fortune Teller is far from the worst attack in the game. Thief, Noble Brigand, Pirate Ship, Saboteur and possibly Bureaucrat too all say hello.
You're right, of course. When I wrote that I had "As there is no Attack card for $2, look at the worst attack in the game." in my head from the list text. I didn't stop to think that there could be a worse attack at a higher cost, and there are in fact many. Not Bureucrat though. Bureaucrat is a great card. My only other major problem with the list text that I'd suggest changing is the part about Shanty Town where it says you can play one followed by two terminals and then another ST. That's just plain wrong.
As long as you understand Qvist didn't mean it the way you mean it, and no one else means it in that way either, then I think we're clear!
Very nice work, Qvist. Kudos.Thank you.
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/lookout.jpg) | #11 Lookout (Seaside) Weighted Average: 11.61 / Median: 11 / Mode: 8 / Standard Deviation: 4.5 Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #6 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #19 (1x), #20 (1x), #22 (1x) Now we're making a big jump of 2.5 points and reaching the 11 above-average cards. 4 times it got #8, but the range from #2 to #22 and the high deviation shows the disagreement with this card? Why? The positive part is: It's a non-terminal trasher which is of course very powerful. It can trash a card which is even not in your hand. It also counters top-deck-attacks, especially Sea Hag (Sea Hag / Lookout is currently the #31 best opening), very well. And with the support of "spying" cards you are guaranteed trashing a bad card. All this is similar to Loan. But Loan can only trash the first card. With Lookout you can even choose between three cards. But: In the late game, it's a dead card in your hand, because it becomes dangerous. Who doesn't fear drawing 3 Provinces or even Colonies and having to trash one? Maybe that fear caused many players to rank it that low. And maybe other players ignored that totally when ranking it that high. The fear isn't justified mostly, but you have to keep that in mind. Especially if you have only 2 or even 1 card in your drawing deck. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/scheme.jpg) | #10 Scheme (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 10.99 / Median: 11 / Mode: 11 / Standard Deviation: 5.1 Highest Rank(s): #1 (1x), #3 (1x), #5 (1x) / Lowest Rank(s): #20 (2x), #23 (1x) We're reaching the Top 10 and the card with the second highest deviation. It's the first card which got #1, 5 times it got #11, but it even got #23. What a big range! Scheme is a cantrip and mostly don't hurt in your deck as long as you don't draw it dead. But how big is the benefit? If you're building an engine around a key card (like Hunting Party), Scheme is very handy as you can be sure to have that card in hand nearly every turn. With +Buy you could even buy more Schemes to add to your engine. Even with a simpler strategy, but a strong attack, Scheme is very nice, as is basically replaces the second copy of that strong attack card. Be aware of Minion, as Minion could completely destroy your top-decking. On the other hand, in big money games or with very thin decks, Scheme is not worth a buy and you better buy a Silver. Are here the votings again: BM players vs. Engine builders? |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/tunnel.jpg) | #9 Tunnel (Hinterlands) Weighted Average: 10.32 / Median: 9 / Mode: 11 / Standard Deviation: 4.4 Highest Rank(s): #3 (1x), #4 (1x), #5 (3x) / Lowest Rank(s): #17 (1x), #18 (1x), #20 (1x) One of the closest battles of all cards was the one between #8 and #9. Tunnel loses very close and is #9. Here we have another Victory card, but this time it ranks really high. 4 times it was #11, but the deviation is still not very low. That may result from the problem all Victory cards have in common: How do you rank them? It's clear that Tunnel is a good card, especially in Province games, but how high do I want it to sit in the ranking? Its 2VP for only $3 is already very good. You have to pay $2 more for getting one point more. And the Reaction part is really strong. Mostly there is at least one card on the board which can trigger it. It combos great with Vault, Cellar, Inn, Embassy and such. Young Witch / Tunnel is currently the 20th best opening. So Tunnel is one of the rare scenarios when buying a victory card as an opening buy can be really good (beside Island). It's also a great defense card against Discarding Attacks like Militia, Goons or Margrave or even Minion. On boards with many discarding synergies, you mostly can observe a rush for Tunnels. And then not only the Tunnel can deplete, the Gold pile can too. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/watchtower.jpg) | #8 Watchtower (Prosperity) Weighted Average: 10.32 (10.318) / Median: 10 / Mode: 10 / Standard Deviation: 4.2 Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #5 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #18 (1x), #19 (2x) Watchtower managed to beat Tunnel with a 0.02 lead. Its median is worse, so it may be even worse. With more lists these two positions may have become clearer. The consensus is higher and 4 times it got #10. The two Reaction cards fought and Watchtower won. Watchtower is very versatile what makes it a great card. At first it can draw up to 6 cards what makes it a worse Library and is great in Hamlet, Festival or other decks where the non-terminals draw equal or less cards than you discard. Then it is even an Smithy equivalent. Even if two Watchtowers collide you can use the Reaction part for the other card too. You can put your new card on top of your deck and have it in your hand in the next turn. But Watchtower is even a better defense card. The strongest attacks are Cursing and Discarding Attacks. You can trash the gained Curses immediately and can draw to a more than full hand after discarding. And, with one of the discarding attacks it combos too: Goons / Watchtower is great as you can buy additional Coppers or Curses for VPs and can trash them immediately without clogging up. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/swindler.jpg) | #7 Swindler (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 7.29 / Median: 7 / Mode: 9 / Standard Deviation: 4.6 Highest Rank(s): #4 (5x) / Lowest Rank(s): #12 (3x), #19 (1x), #25 (1x) Now we make an even bigger jump of 3 points and are now in the Top 7, the 7 good $3 cards. Swindler got #9 six times and has only 5 outliers of ranks below #9, from mostly beginners, therefore the high deviation. But still, no-one ranked it higher than #4, so it's definitely not owerpowered. Swindler is the third $3 Attack and this time it is a good one. It's a great opening buy and can turn the Coppers of the opponents into Curses. Later in the game it can turn the new good $5 cards into Duchies. With special cards on the board, the punishing can even be worse, like swindling the only Potion into a Treasure Map or Coppersmith or vice versa, turning the Sea Hag into a Potion. Maybe the outliers are punishing it too, for its high luck-dependant attack. Both players may open Swindler and one can turn the other Swindler into a Chancellor. Or you hit 3 Coppers and turn them into Curses and your opponent hit 3 Estates and turn them into ... Estates. Bad luck! Of course you can decrease bad luck by adding a Spy-like attack, but most of the time it's not worth it. Beware with Peddler on board. Trashing a Province and turning into a Peddler, great. Hitting a Peddler when the Peddlers are out, bad! And beware in the end game. Hitting a Curse when the Curses are out is suboptimal, but hitting a Province and giving your opponent the last Province, can win or lose you the game. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/warehouse.jpg) | #6 Warehouse (Seaside) Weighted Average: 6.22 / Median: 6 / Mode: 4 / Standard Deviation: 2.6 Highest Rank(s): #2 (1x), #3 (2x) / Lowest Rank(s): #10 (2x), #11 (1x), #13 (1x) Now we are in the Top 6, the region with high concensus again. No big surprises from now on. Warehouse got #4 6 times, but still has enough lower ranks, so it's still only #6. Warehouse is the better Cellar (ok, it's the last time with this innuendo). But it is a very useful deck sifter. You can draw 3 cards and discard the most useless ones. It's also a card that works fine with Tunnel and of course with any Attack as it is non-terminal and can draw your terminals more often. And you can even play it if your hand is good and discard the useless cards on top of your deck (which are coincidental there or from any Attack like Rabble). Not much to say here, it's a useful addition to any deck, especially in decks with important key cards which you want to play as often as you can. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/menagerie.jpg) | #5 Menagerie (Cornucopia) Weighted Average: 5.68 / Median: 5 / Mode: 5 / Standard Deviation: 2.8 Highest Rank(s): #1 (2x), #3 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #9 (2x), #10 (1x), #14 (1x) Menagerie managed it to get first 2 times, but still has some outliers in the lower ranks, so it's still #5. The majority voted it exactly there, it got #5 7 times. Menagerie can be very strong, a double-Laboratory, or only a cantrip. Ok, it never hurts, but it sill needs enablers like cards that can discard (best: non-terminal like Warehouse or Hamlet) or heavy-trashing to use its full strength. Its best use may be to counter Discarding attacks. After a Militia or Goons attacks, just play Menagerie and you have a 5-card-hand again. Of course it's also good if there are many good cards on the board you want to have, or you buy many good cards out of the Black Market deck, so you can maximize the possibilty to have different cards in the deck. In comparism to Warehouse its not always a good addition to your deck, but when it is, it's so good. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/steward.jpg) | #4 Steward (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 5.56 / Median: 6 / Mode: 7 / Standard Deviation: 2.8 Highest Rank(s): #1 (1x), #2 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #9 (1x), #11 (1x), #13 (1x) Again, it was very close, but Steward has beaten Menagerie, even if it has a lower Median and Mode. I got #7 6 times, but at the same time was rarely lower than #7. Steward's strength is its flexibility. It's one of the rare trashers that are good openers and still good later in the game, in this case for $2 or 2 cards. It leads to very difficult decisions (Steward and 4 Coppers: Trashing or Gold?) but either decision is strong. And it is also rare for a non-attack card that is terminal to say about: "It is usually a good buy" (even though it's the opening buy) Tournament / Steward is currently the best Steward opening at #49. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/fishingvillage.jpg) | #3 Fishing Village (Seaside) Weighted Average: 2.99 / Median: 3 / Mode: 2 / Standard Deviation: 1.5 Highest Rank(s): #1 (4x) / Lowest Rank(s): #5 (4x), #6 (1x), #7 (1x) Next big step and we're in the Top 3. No doubt on this card. It has the lower deviation shared with another card, and got #2 10 times. What makes Fishing Village a good village, yes, one of the best in the game? It hasn't 2 of the biggest problems in combination with villages. 1.) A Smithy-Village chain still may lack the money. FV gives money instead of a card. 2.) You draw 2 terminals with no village in hand. FV gives also an additional action in the following turn and therefore a total of 3 actions, minimizing the chances of not being able to play colliding terminals. So, if you're definitely going to build an unstoppable engine, buy as many FVs as you can. FV / Wharf is so much superior than Smithy / Village and FV / Torturer can hurt so much. You only don't want to buy it if you're going BM, because then you have basically a Lighthouse if you don't use the +Actions. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/masquerade.jpg) | #2 Masquerade (Intrigue) Weighted Average: 2.43 / Median: 2 / Mode: 1 / Standard Deviation: 1.5 Highest Rank(s): #1 (8x) / Lowest Rank(s): #5 (1x), #6 (2x) It was fun to observe the battle for #1. Masquerade lost by very small margin. 8 times #1 wasn't enough to get the top position. But at least it's the other card that got the lowest deviation. At first it seems so harmless (at least to me). Even though it is no attack by definition, most of the times it feels like it is one. I cannot desribe the power of Masquerade better than theory did: "By drawing 2 cards, Masquerade combines solid buying power with its deck-thinning, thus allowing you to improve your deck along two axes at once." It's a hard counter to cursing attacks, so you may even choose not to go for the cursing attack with Masquerade on the board. And if you have a discarding attack and play Masquerade afterwards it's even a harder attack, allowing the (in)famous Masquerade pin. I still have problems to pass the cards in the right order if I play multiple Masquerades per turn :P but that doesn't decrease its power. It dominates nearly all games. And Tournament / Masquerade is #8 in the best openings list. Double Masquerade is #105 and the second best double opening. |
(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-large/cards/ambassador.jpg) | #1 Ambassador (Seaside) Weighted Average: 2.20 / Median: 2 / Mode: 1 / Standard Deviation: 1.9 Highest Rank(s): #1 (14x) / Lowest Rank(s): #5 (2x), #10 (1x) Ambassador is the best $3 card, it has only one outlier and was voted #1 by nearly the half of all players. I think it deserves the #1 spot. Let's start Ambassador war! In some games the ping-pong of Estates of Coppers is so important that you rather risk open Double-Ambassador and colliding two Ambassadors instead of losing the Ambassador war. Some say it's undercosted and the best attack relative to its cost. You can even buy a curse and turn Ambassador into a Curser. If you lose Ambassador war badly, there's no good chance to recover and building a good engine. But beware: Don't forget building up your own economy. Your opponent is flooded with Coppers and Estates. But he can buy good cards too, so don't forget that. But the power is undeniable. Tournament / Ambassador is #3, Caravan / Ambassador is #7 and Ambassador / Fool's Gold #17 in the openings list with many other good Ambassador openings to come (Double-Ambassador is #44 and the best double opening). |
Tunnel, on the other hand, is either Top 5 good or close to it. Rare is the kingdom without any ability to discard cards from your hand. And so many of those discarders are cards you would want even without Tunnel (Cartographer, Vault, Oasis, Warehouse, Minion, etc.) that Tunnel, in the presence of these cards and others, is truly dominating.
But there was one much bigger surprise to me:
#8 Watchtower (my rank: #18): Can someone explain this to me please? I really don't know what is so great about Watchtower...I mean - it almost always draws 2 cards (like Moat), it "stops" most of the attacks (like Moat) and it can put a card on top of your deck when you don't play it. It is a solid reaction, but what's to like so much here?
Tunnel is "bad" for the same reason that Cache is bad. You can use it to get gold but you're still diluting your deck with other cards. If you use a tunnel for gold only once, you've increased your $/card by less than buying a silver would have.The difference being you don't have to reach $6 before you get your Gold.
Tunnel is "bad" for the same reason that Cache is bad. You can use it to get gold but you're still diluting your deck with other cards. If you use a tunnel for gold only once, you've increased your $/card by less than buying a silver would have. If you use it twice, it's equal to buying a silver. Tunnels don't even increase your buying power right away, you'll have to go through a reshuffle after activating it before the gold will appear in your deck.
That being said, I don't think tunnels are really bad just overrated currently. If you can discard and cycle your deck to activate tunnels, you're well suited to having a deck with high variance and the 2VP from tunnels shouldn't be overlooked. However, on some boards tunnels + discard is too slow compared to alternate strategies and I see people going for them even when they should be ignored.
Tunnel is "bad" for the same reason that Cache is bad. You can use it to get gold but you're still diluting your deck with other cards. If you use a tunnel for gold only once, you've increased your $/card by less than buying a silver would have.The difference being you don't have to reach $6 before you get your Gold.
Cache shines in situations where $/card is not the most helpful thing, possibly because selective drawing is in play. For instance, Hunting Party might find your Cache and skip your Coppers. Tunnel is much better in those situations because Tunnel is not a treasure, so if you're working with Venture, Adventurer, Farming Village, Scout, Crossroads, Cartographer it might be totally worth it to have some early Gold at the expense of extra green.You seem to be saying that both Cache and Tunnel are good when selective drawing is in play? But earlier you said the comparison is superficial...
One note I'd correct on the list: Great Hall has several cards other than IW that it pairs up well with; I doubt it changes rankings a whit, but it can be better than silver pretty early with some of the following combos:
Scrying pool: GH is a free net card, given the shortage of 3 coin self-replacing cards this often the best 3 coin buy in a scrying pool game
Scout: See scrying pool; though scout tends to lack the drawing power to make even GH/Scout viable on its own.
Crossroads: Another free + card, but it can also be used multiple times
Cartographer/Apothecary (Spy/Pearl Diver/etc).: When you know you can control the top of your deck, GH can be a cheap way to draw your next engine card into hand and leave your cartographers and apothecaries to dig deeper into the deck, again most any self replacing card will work here, but again there are very few that are as cheap as GH.
On a larger note, in 2 player GH is a quick pile to empty for your third pile. It's cheap and it only takes 8 buys.
I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I think it would have been cool to include Silver in this list (and obviously Estate in the $2 list etc). Where would people put Silver here?
Watchtower : I agree with Dr.Hades about this. Watchtower is probably the best defense against attacks. But when there aren't attacks, or when your opponent doesn't attack you, Watchtower is totally useless.
Library is really good, but Watchtower is weak. Even against a militia... it's risky.
Scheme : I put it in #9, but now I think I overrated scheme. Good, but never awesome. Like spy. I don't remember any game where scheme was important. The only exception is with King's court.
Swindler : The most overrated attack in the game, IMO.
Ambassador/Masquerade : Excellent cards, but I'm surprised to see so many high ranks. I find Menagerie, Tunnel, Fishing village, Warehouse and Steward much better !
Lookout : I agree about the rank. But... It's very, very rare, when you draw 3 provinces/colonies with lookout. Never happened for me. Sometimes I trashed a gold, but never a province/colony.
I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I think it would have been cool to include Silver in this list (and obviously Estate in the $2 list etc). Where would people put Silver here?
Scheme is a very very good card unless it isn't.
Swindler : The most overrated attack in the game, IMO.As I mentioned in my article about opening terminals, swindler is massively stronger in 2-player than in 3/4-player. In 2-player it is obscenely strong. If you hit one of your opponents key cards early, it's like a free win. Early in the game, close to 10% of your cards are critical, and losing one puts you impossibly behind. So swindler has a 10% chance of free win, and the rest of the time is a decent attack. If you add a 10% chance of free win to any attack -- even thief -- it becomes a pretty good card...
I haven't read the whole thread, so I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but I think it would have been cool to include Silver in this list (and obviously Estate in the $2 list etc). Where would people put Silver here?I don't think it makes sense to include silver, since it's always in the supply. I guess it has to be #1. I buy masq in maybe 6% of games (the rest of the time it's not even in the supply), and silver in like 85% of games, so I buy silver way more often, by a landslide...
Minor nitpick: the statistical term is "outliers," not "outliners." Good work nonetheless.Oh, thanks for the hint. I seem to have mixed it up. I'll change that.
I was concerned too, especially in the beginning with few entries, where the order was very strange. With better players sending in their lists it seemed clear to me to make a weighted average. In the end, I can say it didn't change much, a card change here and there. It was more important that many experienced players had sent in their lists, so thanks for all your lists again.I've gotta say, these community card rankings turned out really great, it worked much better than I thought it would.
I'd bet that Qvist's decision to weight by isotropic rank is really helping to keep the numbers in line. (That and the readers here are generally pretty good at Dominion to begin with.)
I don't think it makes sense to include silver, since it's always in the supply. I guess it has to be #1. I buy masq in maybe 6% of games (the rest of the time it's not even in the supply), and silver in like 85% of games, so I buy silver way more often, by a landslide...
I'm sorry that the last list update happened already a few days ago, but I will post the first $4 cards in a few hours.
I find it fascinating that Ambassador, a $3 attack, is listed as the best $3 card in the game, while Fortune Teller, another $3 attack, is fourth from the bottom. (Qvist even calls Ambassador "the best attack relative to its cost" while calling Fortune Teller "the worst attack in the game".) And yet the simulations at Dominiate (http://rspeer.github.com/dominiate/play.html) seem to tell a very different story.Because you never play a game with just 1 card :) Ambassador's biggest strength is in building a big, rolling engine, while stopping your opponent from doing anything too great at the same time.
When you play the predefined "Double Ambassador" strategy against a "Double Fortune Teller" strategy (exactly the same, but replace "Ambassador" with "Fortune Teller" in the code), the Fortune Teller strategy wins 55% of the time. In fact, when I experiment with other strategies (buying only one, or buying three plus Laboratories, etc.), Fortune Teller seems to beat Ambassador every time. What gives? Why would the community judge Ambassador as so much better, when it loses in a head to head match-up? :o
"[Curse, 2]"
"[Curse, 1]"
"[Curse, 0]"
# Handle a silly case:
"[Ambassador, 2]"
"[Estate, 2]"
"[Estate, 1]"
# Make sure we have at least $5 in the deck, including if we buy a Silver.
"[Copper, 2]" if my.getTreasureInHand() < 3 and my.getTotalMoney() >= 5
"[Copper, 2]" if my.getTreasureInHand() >= 5
"[Copper, 2]" if my.getTreasureInHand() == 3 and my.getTotalMoney() >= 7
"[Copper, 1]" if my.getTreasureInHand() < 3 and my.getTotalMoney() >= 4
"[Copper, 1]" if my.getTreasureInHand() >= 4
"[Estate, 0]"
"[Copper, 0]"
"[Potion, 2]"
"[Potion, 1]"
This can surely be optimized...
I am really disagree with develop and black market!
You need in 90% of games buy black market because they are almost cards like goons, wharf, kc , mountebank.... (for me Black market is in the top 8)
And develop, ok it s often a bad card... but when they are cost 7 cards for example, it become really strong and even without it s not so bad to trash a cost 4 cards for a wharf village(on the deck!)...
And moreover cards like chancellor or fortune teller are so useless, i don t understand how they can be behind develop...
before* (develop is behind fortune teller and chancellor)
before* (develop is behind fortune teller and chancellor)
And Fortune Teller and Chancellor are useful more often than Develop. When Fortune Teller and Chancellor are good, they are very good. Develop is always kinda meh.
Can somebody explain the logic of Steward at 4?
Menagerie, Swindler, and Scheme completely out-class it in my opinion.
Can somebody explain the logic of Steward at 4?
Menagerie, Swindler, and Scheme completely out-class it in my opinion.
You're using Chancellor as your comparison. What? Really? Chancellor is NOT that bad! It's a decent terminal $2, and has one very powerful combo at least. Develop needs very specific circumstances to not be total garbage.No, here are some good examples of Develop being a good card:
on a board where chancellor is the only terminal, i'll basically always pick one up. on a board where develop is the only terminal, i'll basically always ignore it.if stash isn't present, taking fortune teller over chancellor any day.
separately, i prefer chancellor to fortune teller.
No, here are some good examples of Develop being a good card:
-Cursers, no other trashing.
-Border Village w/$7 card
-Familiar w/Golem and 2P
-Sea Hag
-Cutpurse
-Any other card that loses its value later in the game.
Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.
Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.
??? What does this do? Provide +$2? Ensure you could play your Familiar more often? Is that not possible with Sea Hag and YW also? Oh, now I see your point.Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.
You must not be... familiar with opening Chancellor/Potion on certain Curse boards. 8)
Just want to remind everyone that the voting for these lists were done when Hinterlands hadn't been out for very long, so there are probably a lot of semi-random misrankings of Hinterlands cards. I think if voting were to be done again, Oracle wouldn't be nearly so low, though Develop would still hang around the bottom.
Oracle had a pretty huge variance in rankings. If you look at the extreme votes for Oracle, the top 3 are rank 9-11, which is close to where it should be, imo (I have it at 10), but there are 3 last-place votes. This is likely the result of people not having played with it yet, and arbitrarily putting it last.
Develop, on the other hand, people continue to argue should be last. I personally think Develop should be above Chancellor, because it's more often actually a dominant card. But it still needs a lot of things right about the Kingdom to actually be that good, since it kind of depends on having worthwhile cards at a lot of different price points. So it's hard to rank it too far from the bottom.
1) Why is JoaT number 1? Shouldn't it be last? (I kid but this is not a reason to list a card lower)I am really disagree with develop and black market!
You need in 90% of games buy black market because they are almost cards like goons, wharf, kc , mountebank.... (for me Black market is in the top 8)
And develop, ok it s often a bad card... but when they are cost 7 cards for example, it become really strong and even without it s not so bad to trash a cost 4 cards for a wharf village(on the deck!)...
And moreover cards like chancellor or fortune teller are so useless, i don t understand how they can be behind develop...
Black Market is so low because
1) It makes games annoying
2) It takes way too long to get the Black Marketed cards when you should be focusing on cards already on the table
3) Certain cards pop up in the Black Market which are useless by themselves, like Treasure Map or Fool's Gold
??? What does this do? Provide +$2? Ensure you could play your Familiar more often? Is that not possible with Sea Hag and YW also? Oh, now I see your point.Chancellor is good with Stash. Other than that, it is usually garbage.
You must not be... familiar with opening Chancellor/Potion on certain Curse boards. 8)
Develop: Hundreds of 3 card combos that we have not yet discovered or posted really. Decent in cursing games without those conditions.
Develop: Hundreds of 3 card combos that we have not yet discovered or posted really. Decent in cursing games without those conditions.
I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the possibility of 3-card combos (most of which aren't really powerful in any way) means that Develop is better. I might as well say that the mere possibility of deck acceleration that Chancellor offers on any kingdom makes it better, but we know that is not true.
There certainly have been games when matching up a Develop with a key card has significantly contributed to my win, but those match-ups were incredibly luck-based to begin with; things like developing my opening $4 into Oasis/Minion or something like that.
Develop: Hundreds of 3 card combos that we have not yet discovered or posted really. Decent in cursing games without those conditions.I think it's a bit disingenuous to suggest that the possibility of 3-card combos (most of which aren't really powerful in any way) means that Develop is better. I might as well say that the mere possibility of deck acceleration that Chancellor offers on any kingdom makes it better, but we know that is not true.
Personally, I'd be interested in seeing a new list fairly soon: All the cards now out we're familiar with, and with Dark Ages being so big and apparently likely complex, it'd take a while for that to be well understood. I think now might be a good time to see what people think.
Incidentally, have you still got the fun rankings, Qvist?