Dominion Strategy Forum

Dominion => Game Reports => Help! => Topic started by: Seprix on May 11, 2016, 03:49:33 pm

Title: A Serious Question Regarding Rebuild
Post by: Seprix on May 11, 2016, 03:49:33 pm
http://gokosalvager.com/static/logprettifier.html?https://dominion-game-logs.s3.amazonaws.com/game_logs/20160511/log.0.1462995817677.txt

(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/0/01/Artificer.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Artificer) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/28/Counterfeit.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Counterfeit) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/7/7e/Market.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Market) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/f/f8/Rebuild.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Rebuild) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/9/9d/Harem.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Harem)
(http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/2/2f/Beggar.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Beggar) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/a/a7/Armory.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Armory) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/c1/Herald.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Herald) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/8/89/Salvager.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Salvager) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/images/c/cf/Talisman.jpg) (http://wiki.dominionstrategy.com/index.php/Talisman)
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Beggar, Armory, Herald, Salvager, Talisman, Artificer, Counterfeit, Market, Rebuild, Harem
This is a very strange game for sure. My opponent opened 5/2, so I knew I was going to be in some serious trouble unless I quickly got going with my strategy. Thankfully, the board was a Shelters board, so I knew I had a little time to quickly build up. I knew I wanted as many Heralds as possible, so I couldn't possibly screw up, so I got Talisman/Silver as my opening. Maybe it wasn't the best idea, but whatever, I got tons of Heralds. I still incorporated Rebuild into my long term plans, and I think that is correct. I also got Artificer to potentially discard those green cards while also getting more cards as well, though that never materialized in practice, so Market may have been a better buy. Who knows.

But anyways, my opponent decided to buy things instead of pursuing the whole Rebuild strategy. I think I would have won in the long term game here, but I wanted to get some consensus on this board, as it is immensely complex. I'm not even sure I got the optimal opening or buys. I didn't even incorporate Armory, so I'm sure that may have been a better buy than Talisman...?
Title: Re: A Serious Question Regarding Rebuild
Post by: DG on May 11, 2016, 04:27:12 pm
Rebuild isn't any stronger on 5/2 than 4/3. I personally think it is weaker on 5/2 unless there is a good 2 cost card.
Title: Re: A Serious Question Regarding Rebuild
Post by: Seprix on May 11, 2016, 04:28:52 pm
Quote from: DG on May 11, 2016, 04:27:12 pm
Rebuild isn't any stronger on 5/2 than 4/3. I personally think it is weaker on 5/2 unless there is a good 2 cost card.

Thank you for the clarification.
Title: Re: A Serious Question Regarding Rebuild
Post by: Seprix on May 11, 2016, 04:53:43 pm
Quote from: diedre91 on May 11, 2016, 04:44:42 pm
You won the game, didn't you?

Winning the game against an opponent who played poorly is not enough for me. I want to find the best way to play this Kingdom. It is sufficiently complex to warrant a discussion.
Title: Re: A Serious Question Regarding Rebuild
Post by: Awaclus on May 11, 2016, 04:59:51 pm
Quote from: DG on May 11, 2016, 04:27:12 pm
Rebuild isn't any stronger on 5/2 than 4/3. I personally think it is weaker on 5/2 unless there is a good 2 cost card.

Like an Estate when you have a Hovel in your hand. It's true that it's not really stronger than 4/3 though.


Anyway, the Heralds aren't really doing anything for you in this game. You shouldn't try to mix different strategies — Rebuild is a rush strategy, so don't mix it with an engine.

Also, Shelters don't make Rebuild significantly weaker.
Title: Re: A Serious Question Regarding Rebuild
Post by: Seprix on May 11, 2016, 05:05:16 pm
Quote from: Awaclus on May 11, 2016, 04:59:51 pm
Quote from: DG on May 11, 2016, 04:27:12 pm
Rebuild isn't any stronger on 5/2 than 4/3. I personally think it is weaker on 5/2 unless there is a good 2 cost card.

Like an Estate when you have a Hovel in your hand. It's true that it's not really stronger than 4/3 though.

Noted.

Quote
Anyway, the Heralds aren't really doing anything for you in this game. You shouldn't try to mix different strategies — Rebuild is a rush strategy, so don't mix it with an engine.

The Heralds are fine for my deck. Maybe I could have gotten all of them later on, but I was planning a longer game. However, the opponent decided to buy all of the Estates so it ended much quicker.

Getting Rebuild is something I will defend. It's a fine card to have, especially with Artificer's discard ability.

Quote
Also, Shelters don't make Rebuild significantly weaker.

No, but it takes longer to get Rebuild going.
Title: Re: A Serious Question Regarding Rebuild
Post by: diedre91 on May 11, 2016, 05:13:26 pm
If Rebuild was not there, I believe playing BigMoney is the best you can do.
However Herald is a good way to play your rebuilds every turn.

Maybe buying more than two Rebuilds? I would prefer rebuild instead of heralds.
Your opponent had the same amount of points as you with too less heralds...

I hope my thoughts were helpful.
Title: Re: A Serious Question Regarding Rebuild
Post by: Seprix on May 11, 2016, 05:16:32 pm
Quote from: diedre91 on May 11, 2016, 05:13:26 pm
If Rebuild was not there, I believe playing BigMoney is the best you can do.

Big Money is not even close to the best I could do if Rebuild wasn't here.

Big Money can get 4 provinces on average in about 17 turns. I ended the game with 5 Provinces (I trashed one with Salvager to quicken the game, so it's really 6) in 16.

Quote from: diedre91 on May 11, 2016, 05:13:26 pm
Maybe buying more than two Rebuilds? I would prefer rebuild instead of heralds.
Your opponent had the same amount of points as you with too less heralds...

However, I can agree with this. I bought Heralds far too early, I think. There was a time and place for them, but not that early in the game. Rebuilds would have been better than Heralds there, though I think Markets would have even been better.

I think I want 2 Counterfeits before anything else $5, and I'd want to open Salvager/Silver and get Armory to gain Heralds after. That Armory will have sustained usage later as Counterfeit food by gaining Silvers.
Title: Re: A Serious Question Regarding Rebuild
Post by: diedre91 on May 11, 2016, 06:10:03 pm
Quote from: Seprix on May 11, 2016, 05:16:32 pm
Big Money is not even close to the best I could do if Rebuild wasn't here.
Big Money can get 4 provinces on average in about 17 turns. I ended the game with 5 Provinces (I trashed one with Salvager to quicken the game, so it's really 6) in 16.

I said if rebuild was not on the board...
If I am not mistaken, you had only one province at the end of the game.
Title: Re: A Serious Question Regarding Rebuild
Post by: Seprix on May 11, 2016, 06:11:15 pm
Quote from: diedre91 on May 11, 2016, 06:10:03 pm
Quote from: Seprix on May 11, 2016, 05:16:32 pm
Big Money is not even close to the best I could do if Rebuild wasn't here.
Big Money can get 4 provinces on average in about 17 turns. I ended the game with 5 Provinces (I trashed one with Salvager to quicken the game, so it's really 6) in 16.

I said if rebuild was not on the board...
If I am not mistaken, you had only one province at the end of the game.

The game ended on a 3-pile, dude.

Also, I didn't buy Rebuild at all with my example, I forgot to say. I replaced it with Adventurer, a card so horrible you wouldn't want to even buy it. And of course, I didn't. It was a 9 card Kingdom I played with. I can show you if you want. Challenge me in Dominion. I'm online, and my username is Seprix.
Title: Re: A Serious Question Regarding Rebuild
Post by: Chris is me on May 11, 2016, 06:15:18 pm
I think I would have picked up one Artificer first, if you have time.

Artificer guarantees a top decked Rebuild at worst, and if you have both Artificer and Rebuild in hand you can gain an Estate to the top of the deck and immediately turn it into a Duchy in the early to mid game before Duchy piles out.

Otherwise this isn't that complicated - it's a rebuild rush with weak support. Herald doesn't do anything for you here other than draw if you're lucky / thin.
Title: Re: A Serious Question Regarding Rebuild
Post by: -Stef- on May 12, 2016, 09:45:54 am
It's very, very rare that you want to buy a Rebuild yourself when fighting a Rebuild-strategy with an engine.
Playing the engine on this board, I'd always take Market (or Artificer) over Rebuild.

In general, Rebuild-X is a strategy that has an (almost) constant flow of points until the game ends.
"Engine" on this board is a strategy that scores very few/no points in the first 80% of the game and then scores everything in the last couple of turns.
Making the game go longer is very good for the engine player. The Rebuild player would prefer the game ends asap.

For you this means don't destroy victory cards and build until you can buy/gain provinces (and possibly a couple of Harems).
Title: Re: A Serious Question Regarding Rebuild
Post by: Seprix on May 22, 2016, 02:41:17 pm
I'm still intrigued about this board, and this Kingdom made Kingdom of the Week on Reddit if you want to follow some discussion there about it. (I did change Beggar with Gardens to make it a little more interesting)