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[Glooble]

request vote count

Mondays are busy, but I’ll have one up in a bit.

[faust]

Another word for “elegant” here, as it’s suggested, is “solvable”. I doubt very much it’s that.

FoS on Joth & Swan, extended to Scola for playing follow-the-bad-reason.

But best vote is vote: ADK

vote: Galzria

I'm not sure which one of them is your partner, but nice try saving them.

Think about it folks, if scum really is in a 1v1 here, there's no good outcome for them -- even if they manage to get town to pick the other one, their guy just gets lynched tomorrow.  The only move for a scum partner here that saves their partner for real is to attack the whole premise of the 1 v 1 and attack it hard, so hard that you make people feel stupid for believing in it and they back off. That's Galz here to a T.

Would be a cool argument if we knew it was a 1v1. Which we don't, so we shouldn't jump to conclusions about Glaz. If you believe this is a 1v1 then resolving it is better than going after Galz.

[Awaclus]

Oh and I guess I should clarify that even though I was joking about skip getting the rope, the vote is serious.

[Galzria]

Another word for “elegant” here, as it’s suggested, is “solvable”. I doubt very much it’s that.

FoS on Joth & Swan, extended to Scola for playing follow-the-bad-reason.

But best vote is vote: ADK

vote: Galzria

I'm not sure which one of them is your partner, but nice try saving them.

Think about it folks, if scum really is in a 1v1 here, there's no good outcome for them -- even if they manage to get town to pick the other one, their guy just gets lynched tomorrow.  The only move for a scum partner here that saves their partner for real is to attack the whole premise of the 1 v 1 and attack it hard, so hard that you make people feel stupid for believing in it and they back off. That's Galz here to a T.

It's idiotic game design to create items such that they're used exclusively by 1 town and 1 scum. We all claim what we need, we look at the counter-claims, we lynch amongst those pools, game over. It isn't a game at that point. You want to know what scum do? They promote bad mod design ideas to line up lynches and try to sell people on the idea that there's a world where that game design makes sense. There are 4 scenarios here:

Mail-Mi is not town. Skip is not town.
Mail-Mi is not town. Skip is town.
Mail-Mi is town. Skip is not town.
Mail-Mi is town. Skip is town.

Knowing that they both need the same item has very little impact on the the chances that we're living in any of the above 4 scenario's - and it CERTAINLY doesn't make numbers 2 or 3 exceptionally likely. Advocating that we lynch both as you've done is just lining up lynches. I will not be a part of lynching based on an argument of that the MOD doesn't know how to design a game.

[sudgy]

I lean more on this being town vs town.  I didn't see anything from either of them that made me think either was scum, and I feel like it is more likely for town to knowingly go into a 1v1 than scum.  (skip, as scum, could have remained silent; mail-mi, as scum, could have claimed something other than the rope.)

[Galzria]

Vote:Swan

All things considered, it's usually town rather than scum than comes out early with claims in games like these, the downside of doing so generally being risking an early death which town tends to mind less. I see no reason to assume that two people who need the rope couldn't both be town. The people looking most scummy to me right now are the ones that are lining up two lynches from this, just doesn't seem warranted from the information we have.

ppe: behind a bit

I think you must of mis-interpreted something I have said? I am not advocating the lynch of anyone. The last thing i posted was pulling the Joth quote... so if it is that I wanna make it super clear I am not on team "lynch one then the other here". Which is why I am not voting.
I also, previously stated that I think it is potentially likely that it could of been a town to town signal.

Whatever, regardless... not trying to line up any lynches.

Ok, I re-read. Now I get it. I wasn't following at the time.

It is definitely interesting, though not exactly surprising, that there are items multiple people need (which seems more likely to me than someone randomly listing an item that  skip happens to need).

I think it's more likely that the people who need the same item are on different factions -- that's much more elegant game design.

So there is merit, especially on day 1, to lynching one person out of a pair who need the same item. That said, we have only skip's word here, so if he says [so and so] needs the same item as me, he could really have just named anybody who posted a list as a scum tactic to get that person lynched. So maybe this isn't presently actionable.

this. smart. good idea/catch.

There's little to misinterpret here. You even bolded the part that you were clearly agreeing with for emphasis.

"I think it's more likely that the people who need the same item are on different factions -- that's much more elegant game design."

You've said, through your agreeing statements "this. smart. good idea/catch.", that you believe that it is likely that one of Mail-Mi & Skip is scum, as they share a need of the same item. If one were lynched and flipped town, then your belief, as you've made clear here, is that the other is likely scum. That is the definition of "lining up lynches" before flips occur - and in this case, based on a bad mod design theory.

[Galzria]

I lean more on this being town vs town.  I didn't see anything from either of them that made me think either was scum, and I feel like it is more likely for town to knowingly go into a 1v1 than scum.  (skip, as scum, could have remained silent; mail-mi, as scum, could have claimed something other than the rope.)

This is a much more reasonable response. One of Mail-Mi or Skip may in fact be scum. The fact that they've claimed need of the same item is irrelevant. It's much more worthwhile to look at the how/when/why of their claims. In neither case is it a particularly logical scum play - they've both, independently of each other and at different times, set up claims that don't make sense from scum D1. That is, both had ways to avoid being put into a 1v1 today and neither of them took that out. Scum avoids this conflict if they have the chance to do so.

[Glooble]

The next morning, I went to a charming little cafe to drink a cup of coffee. Just kidding, it was whiskey. Not that they served whiskey, but I snuck it in. I knew I'd need something stronger than coffee to deal with this town.

As I sipped my irish-coffee-hold-the-coffee, I listen the the waiter and the busboy gossiping about the sous-chef. Word on the street was he was working for the mob. Or at least that's what the busboy thought.

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch. Deadline is April 29th at noon ET.

Vote Count 1.5:

MiX (1): sudgy
skip wooznum (5): Awaclus, faust, mail-mi, MiX, scolapasta
Scolapasta (1): Joseph2302
Joseph2302 (1): WestCoastDidds
mail-mi (2): skip wooznum, LaLight
DatSwan (1): Eevee
Eevee (1): A Drowned Kernel
A Drowned Kernel (1): Galzria
Galzria (1): jotheonah
Not voting (1): DatSwan

[faust]

I lean more on this being town vs town.  I didn't see anything from either of them that made me think either was scum, and I feel like it is more likely for town to knowingly go into a 1v1 than scum.  (skip, as scum, could have remained silent; mail-mi, as scum, could have claimed something other than the rope.)

This is a much more reasonable response. One of Mail-Mi or Skip may in fact be scum. The fact that they've claimed need of the same item is irrelevant. It's much more worthwhile to look at the how/when/why of their claims. In neither case is it a particularly logical scum play - they've both, independently of each other and at different times, set up claims that don't make sense from scum D1. That is, both had ways to avoid being put into a 1v1 today and neither of them took that out. Scum avoids this conflict if they have the chance to do so.

That is not true though. And skip in particular wasn't apporaching the claim in a townie manner at all; instead he first asked what people believed about two people needing different items before going through with the claim, the only reasons for which I can see are testing the waters for how a claim would turn out and getting people to talk more about items, both of which are scummy.

Oh, and he let mail-mi claim the item rather than doing it himself, so that he had all the options available.

[Galzria]

I lean more on this being town vs town.  I didn't see anything from either of them that made me think either was scum, and I feel like it is more likely for town to knowingly go into a 1v1 than scum.  (skip, as scum, could have remained silent; mail-mi, as scum, could have claimed something other than the rope.)

This is a much more reasonable response. One of Mail-Mi or Skip may in fact be scum. The fact that they've claimed need of the same item is irrelevant. It's much more worthwhile to look at the how/when/why of their claims. In neither case is it a particularly logical scum play - they've both, independently of each other and at different times, set up claims that don't make sense from scum D1. That is, both had ways to avoid being put into a 1v1 today and neither of them took that out. Scum avoids this conflict if they have the chance to do so.

That is not true though. And skip in particular wasn't apporaching the claim in a townie manner at all; instead he first asked what people believed about two people needing different items before going through with the claim, the only reasons for which I can see are testing the waters for how a claim would turn out and getting people to talk more about items, both of which are scummy.

Oh, and he let mail-mi claim the item rather than doing it himself, so that he had all the options available.

I mean, I disagree with your conclusion, but I respect your thought process to reach it. And if you feel that Skip is being scummy here and that deserves a vote/lynch - then by all means go for it - my larger point is against the lining up of lynches based on an argument that honestly... shouldn't be being made by the players that are making it.

[sudgy]

I lean more on this being town vs town.  I didn't see anything from either of them that made me think either was scum, and I feel like it is more likely for town to knowingly go into a 1v1 than scum.  (skip, as scum, could have remained silent; mail-mi, as scum, could have claimed something other than the rope.)

This is a much more reasonable response. One of Mail-Mi or Skip may in fact be scum. The fact that they've claimed need of the same item is irrelevant. It's much more worthwhile to look at the how/when/why of their claims. In neither case is it a particularly logical scum play - they've both, independently of each other and at different times, set up claims that don't make sense from scum D1. That is, both had ways to avoid being put into a 1v1 today and neither of them took that out. Scum avoids this conflict if they have the chance to do so.

That is not true though. And skip in particular wasn't apporaching the claim in a townie manner at all; instead he first asked what people believed about two people needing different items before going through with the claim, the only reasons for which I can see are testing the waters for how a claim would turn out and getting people to talk more about items, both of which are scummy.

Or, he could have been trying to figure out what he was doing, and was asking for advice?  I feel that especially fits here with skip being suddenly thrown into the game.  A lot of what seems scummy about skip can be explained as "he had little time to think of anything and has been trying to keep up ever since."  Now, between him and mail-mi, I would pick him, but I don't think he is as scummy as people seem to be making him out to be.

[Swowl]

Vote:Swan

All things considered, it's usually town rather than scum than comes out early with claims in games like these, the downside of doing so generally being risking an early death which town tends to mind less. I see no reason to assume that two people who need the rope couldn't both be town. The people looking most scummy to me right now are the ones that are lining up two lynches from this, just doesn't seem warranted from the information we have.

ppe: behind a bit

I think you must of mis-interpreted something I have said? I am not advocating the lynch of anyone. The last thing i posted was pulling the Joth quote... so if it is that I wanna make it super clear I am not on team "lynch one then the other here". Which is why I am not voting.
I also, previously stated that I think it is potentially likely that it could of been a town to town signal.

Whatever, regardless... not trying to line up any lynches.

Ok, I re-read. Now I get it. I wasn't following at the time.

It is definitely interesting, though not exactly surprising, that there are items multiple people need (which seems more likely to me than someone randomly listing an item that  skip happens to need).

I think it's more likely that the people who need the same item are on different factions -- that's much more elegant game design.

So there is merit, especially on day 1, to lynching one person out of a pair who need the same item. That said, we have only skip's word here, so if he says [so and so] needs the same item as me, he could really have just named anybody who posted a list as a scum tactic to get that person lynched. So maybe this isn't presently actionable.

this. smart. good idea/catch.

There's little to misinterpret here. You even bolded the part that you were clearly agreeing with for emphasis.

"I think it's more likely that the people who need the same item are on different factions -- that's much more elegant game design."

You've said, through your agreeing statements "this. smart. good idea/catch.", that you believe that it is likely that one of Mail-Mi & Skip is scum, as they share a need of the same item. If one were lynched and flipped town, then your belief, as you've made clear here, is that the other is likely scum. That is the definition of "lining up lynches" before flips occur - and in this case, based on a bad mod design theory.

You are technically correct I suppose, which is why I took the time to type out it was not my intended intention. Good idea/catch was to give merit to the fact that he brought it up. If I thought it was a good/idea catch that made one of them skum, I would of followed it up by voting for one of them. "Smart" was simply a *clap* for Joth thinking of the idea.

Essentially, just cuz I think it was a good catch, doesn't mean it has to be correct.

[jotheonah]

It's idiotic game design to create items such that they're used exclusively by 1 town and 1 scum. We all claim what we need, we look at the counter-claims, we lynch amongst those pools, game over. It isn't a game at that point.

This is such a simplistic straw man. (1) it’s a closed setup, so we can’t game it in this way because we don’t know our theory to be correct (case in point, your current argument). (2) Like all claiming-related plans there are lots of ways for scum to manipulate it by lying about what they need. The setup is only solvable if scum admits to needing the same item as someone else.

Now let me defend my claim to why it’s elegant. The game creates a mini game about giving items to other people. If only town needed the items town had, THAT would be solvable— everyone would just claim what they needed and people would give it to them. If scum and town both need items town has, then there’s risk in every decision: risk in whether to share info about what you have/need, risks in whether to give those things out. And there’s trade offs for scum too— scum mail-mi can list the rope, inviting the possibility of a 1 v 1 but also the chance that he gets the rope that he needs to get whatever scum power it grants, or he can not list it and give up the power but avoid that situation.

All that said, I want to be careful not to fall in that trap where in the process of trying to defend a position I end up clinging much more strongly to it than it deserves. So, to be clear, it’s definitely possible Mail-mi and skip are both town. And lynching one and them flipping town should not lead us to automatically lynch the other one the next day— though I don’t actually think anyone’s advocated that explicitly. BUT I think lynching one of them gives us a better chance of hitting scum then lynching outside them.

And, finally, I think my vote for you was a bit overzealous. I stand by the basic premise— that Galz’s reaction was the only sensible one for a scum buddy if we are in a 1 v 1 situation. But I’ve been persuaded that the likelihood that we are in that situation is lower than I thought.

[jotheonah]

Unvote

On another note, I’m getting some scum vibes off sudgy lately. Posting a lot but not committing to many opinions. And I feel like Didds has not contributed much real substance this game, which is a flag for me.

[WestCoastDidds]

I also need the rope

That can be arranged! Vote: skip

Ha! I see what you did there..

[WestCoastDidds]

Unvote

On another note, I’m getting some scum vibes off sudgy lately. Posting a lot but not committing to many opinions. And I feel like Didds has not contributed much real substance this game, which is a flag for me.

This is true.  Today and tomorrow are my students capstones presentations so I am only able to half-way pay attention. Plus, I have a really good idea if who might have what I need, who needs what I have, and who is scummy (Joseph) so I'm cool with letting other people with stuff figure out who needs their stuff. 

But I am curious about how the rope conversation will play out...

[WestCoastDidds]

It seems entirely likely that there are objects that can help multiple folks, regardless of alignment.

The object exchange is the fun stuff (to me). Not everyone talked about stuff or made a list. I don't think it is particularly townie to have done so, but since it wasn't universally done, there is no reason for scum!mail-mi to have even made a list.  To me, listing is towny. Skip was early on the "lets talk about the stuff" game, which I think is pretty towny, too.  Long way of saving, I think this is town v town.

[MiX]

I think skip's having too much fun for the position they say they are in. Weren't they the ones that mentioned an item with 3 'o's?

[MiX]

Eh whatever let's do it now.

I have an item

It's 8 letters long, 3 of the letters are 'o's.

If you need that item, use the word in a post of yours within the next 48 hours.

I suggest that everyone with an item to give do something like this. It will probably be protown, and definitely be fun.

Can you go over why you thought this was a good idea, in extreme detail?

[MiX]

I just realized that a lot of my assumptions on the setup based on my PR make no sense, unless the mod essentially lied in the opening post.

This should be clear after skip answers my detail question, I thinj.

[Joseph2302]

Unvote

On another note, I’m getting some scum vibes off sudgy lately. Posting a lot but not committing to many opinions. And I feel like Didds has not contributed much real substance this game, which is a flag for me.

This is true.  Today and tomorrow are my students capstones presentations so I am only able to half-way pay attention. Plus, I have a really good idea if who might have what I need, who needs what I have, and who is scummy (Joseph) so I'm cool with letting other people with stuff figure out who needs their stuff. 

But I am curious about how the rope conversation will play out...

Joseph is not scum

[Joseph2302]

And i have read the chat, but still want to see what happens

[MiX]

And i have read the chat, but still want to see what happens

What is this referring to?

[WestCoastDidds]

Joseph is not scum

WCD thinks its funny when Joseph refers to himself in 3rd person.

[WestCoastDidds]

I just realized that a lot of my assumptions on the setup based on my PR make no sense, unless the mod essentially lied in the opening post.

This should be clear after skip answers my detail question, I thinj.

Ooohh....bated breath!