Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[pacovf]

Note that Goon should be split in two: an alignment, and a factional kill. Technically, any "role modifier" would have to specify which one it is modifying, even though it's usually obvious (is it even possible to have a modifier on an alignment?). I think that's the problem with your 2-shot Goon example, it's ambiguous.

I think saying that, e.g., Ninja is a full role that makes all night actions of that player undetectable makes the most sense, vis-a-vis mafia's factional kill. I could be convinced that it's a role modifier on the player's factional kill, but that sounds awkward IMHO.

[ashersky]

We also need to agree on an exhaustive list of what roles and modifiers are "normal" for f.ds.  Off the top of my head, I think we'd all agree on:

Roles:
Cop
Tracker
Watcher
Doctor
Jailkeeper
Roleblocker
Innocent Child
Mason
Neighbor
Vigilante
Serial Killer
Godfather

Modifiers:
Strongman
Ninja
Weak
Compulsive
X-shot


We'd need to discuss whether we want to include these in "normal" definition games:

Roles:
Bus Driver
Redirector (and all variants)
Voyeur
Lightning Rod
Nexus
Janitor
Coroner
Survivor
Mime
Lyncher (and other vote-based roles, like Actor, Hammerer, etc.)

Modifiers:
False
Hidden


And ones we probably can all agree are NOT normal:

Roles:
Miller
Jester

[ashersky]

Note that Goon should be split in two: an alignment, and a factional kill. Technically, any "role modifier" would have to specify which one it is modifying, even though it's usually obvious (is it even possible to have a modifier on an alignment?). I think that's the problem with your 2-shot Goon example, it's ambiguous.

I think saying that, e.g., Ninja is a full role that makes all night actions of that player undetectable makes the most sense, vis-a-vis mafia's factional kill. I could be convinced that it's a role modifier on the player's factional kill, but that sounds awkward IMHO.

But we end up saying things like "ninja kill" and "strongman kill" specifically because the kill was modified, not because the player who made the kill was those things.

It's easy enough to word a PM to make it clear, if it's agreed that we are modifying the factional power.

[pacovf]

We have to accept the possibility that what we've been saying all along might be wrong/inconsistent.

[ashersky]

FWIW, mafia scum says strongman is a modifier, not a role.

[pacovf]

Wait, do we have to pretend that mafiascum might know better than us? f.ds's elitism sucks!

[faust]

I don't want to refer to mafiascum in this (or, in fact, in general). mafiascum lists Bulletproof as a role modifier as well, and noone has yet disagreed with my stance that this at least should be a full role.

[faust]

And ones we probably can all agree are NOT normal:

Roles:
Miller
Jester

Uh... why would Miller not be normal?

[silverspawn]

And ones we probably can all agree are NOT normal:

Roles:
Miller
Jester

Uh... why would Miller not be normal?

I think if the setup is closed and normal it shouldn't include mirror. But in an open setup, miller is cool. Sort of like mimes.

[faust]

And ones we probably can all agree are NOT normal:

Roles:
Miller
Jester

Uh... why would Miller not be normal?

I think if the setup is closed and normal it shouldn't include mirror. But in an open setup, miller is cool. Sort of like mimes.

You do know there isn't actually an argument in this post, right?

[silverspawn]

And ones we probably can all agree are NOT normal:

Roles:
Miller
Jester

Uh... why would Miller not be normal?

I think if the setup is closed and normal it shouldn't include mirror. But in an open setup, miller is cool. Sort of like mimes.

You do know there isn't actually an argument in this post, right?

yes. I thought the argument is self-explanatory.

Including mimes or miller in closed setups is sort of like lying to your players. you get a guilty result on someone, you expect him to be mafia. There is no role that changes guilty to innocent, and we don't use insane modifiers.

if you specifically tell everyone that it's normal, then you could get rid of that, but with the side effect of cops becoming weaker in all normal closed games, because you can't rely on guilty results anymore.

[silverspawn]

EBWOF: innocent to guilty

[faust]

I think for the "what is normal?" topic, we first should ask, what do we mean by saying something is normal? I assume we want this as a go-to list for closed normal games. Like, these are the things you can expect.

Why do we need that? Because when signing up for a normal (closed) game, I don't want to worry about stuff like "maybe if I vote more than 5 people on D1, someone has a role that will instantly kill me for that".

All roles in the first category I agree are well established enough that I don't mind them being normal. For the "open for discussion" list:

Bus Driver - means all roles have to worry about not hitting their intended target. I love Bus Driving, but this introduces a major thing to worry about.
Redirector (and all variants) - same as Bus Driver. But at least having only Bus Driver limits the damage that can be done.
Voyeur - I don't think this introduces a big new worry. It makes it slightly more dangerous for scum to fakeclaim, but not by much.
Lightning Rod - never if you cannot choose to activate it, and even if you can this it too big of a manipulation thing in scum hands. I would exclude it.
Nexus - same.
Janitor - once the Janitoring happens, everyone knows that the role is in the game, so I don't see much of an issue.
Coroner - if Janitor can be in, this can as well.
Survivor - I don't like Survivors much in general because they tend to swing the game towards the faction that is already winning. There's no real reason to exclude it though.
Mime - definitely too big a worry for all players involved. Out.
Lyncher (and other vote-based roles, like Actor, Hammerer, etc.) - no.
False - this is mod lying and Bastard. No way.
Hidden - same.

For Miller, I don't see why not include it when Godfather is already included. The effect is the same: it weakens the Cop. I even like it better than Godfather because it means the Cop cannot 100% catch scum. And let's face it, situations where scum is 100% caught are not fun.

It might be worth it to look at mafiascum normal roles. There's a couple of things there that are not listed here:

Bodyguard, Commuter, Follower, Gunsmith, JOAT, Motion Detector, Neapolitan, Neighborizer, Rolestopper, Universal Backup, Vanilla Cop, Friendly Neighbor, Encryptor, Traitor, Investigation-Immune, Ascetic, Enabler, Even/Odd Night, Macho, Non-Consecutive Night

PPE: 2

[faust]

Including mimes or miller in closed setups is sort of like lying to your players. you get a guilty result on someone, you expect him to be mafia. There is no role that changes guilty to innocent, and we don't use insane modifiers.

There is a role that changes innocent to guilty. What's the difference?

[scott_pilgrim]

Anything that makes sense as a modifier should be a modifier (rather than "anything that makes sense as a role should be a role", because I would argue anything that can be a modifier can also be a role, where its effect is just to modify your other roles if you have any).  If I call someone a Mafia Strongman, this is shorthand for "Mafia Goon with a Strongman modifier applying to his factional kill".

The advantage of labeling as many things as possible as modifiers is that it maximizes our flexibility in defining roles.  If I want to make a Town Roleblocker Ninja-Cop, we can easily distinguish that from a Town Cop Ninja-Roleblocker (the former's copping ability is untrackable, the latter's roleblocking ability is untrackable).

Bulletproof is definitely a role.  If I was a Town Cop Bulletproof-Roleblocker, what would it even mean for my Roleblocking ability to be bulletproof, but not my copping ability?  That is nonsense.

[faust]

Wait, I'm stupid. There is a role that changes guilty to innocent, I meant to say: Godfather.

[faust]

if you specifically tell everyone that it's normal, then you could get rid of that, but with the side effect of cops becoming weaker in all normal closed games, because you can't rely on guilty results anymore.

Well, Cops getting weaker is a concern I'm willing to take. Cop is arguably the strongest role out of all roles listed above anyway.

[silverspawn]

Including mimes or miller in closed setups is sort of like lying to your players. you get a guilty result on someone, you expect him to be mafia. There is no role that changes guilty to innocent, and we don't use insane modifiers.

There is a role that changes {same mistake that I did}. What's the difference?

No inherent difference, only convention. People would complain, and for good reason, if your game suddenly included a miller, but not if it included a godfather. But from a purely theoretical standpoint - which you seem to have - I agree that miller is at least as good of a role to have as godfather.

[silverspawn]

I guess I sort of misunderstood your intentions, I thought you meant it more as a certificate for open setups, but if we're specifically discussing what is or isn't allowed in closed ones, then it makes less sense to care about status quo.

[Archetype]

Totally agree with Faust here. If Godfather is to be considered "normal", so should Miller. They're both causing mistrust in a Cop's result, so they should be held to the same standard. Death Millers, of course, shouldn't be allowed.

[faust]

I guess I sort of misunderstood your intentions, I thought you meant it more as a certificate for open setups, but if we're specifically discussing what is or isn't allowed in closed ones, then it makes less sense to care about status quo.

Well, I'd argue that almost anything goes in open setups. So long as people know what they're facing, you can do False roles, Insane Cops, Mimes and what have you if the mod thinks it makes the game balanced and fun.

[ashersky]

I guess I'm looking to:

1) Provide f.ds standard definitions for specific roles, and
2) Decide which roles are allowed in Normal games.

Like, up to now, we've generally considered Millers as Bastard, but not Godfathers.  That's mostly based on the experience others had at other sites.  I agree that, in a setup that specifically states Millers are or may be in a game, they aren't an issue.  I think were people would be unhappy about Millers is the surprise Miller.

[ashersky]

Like, how about this definition as starting point?

Strongman (modifier)

--When applied to a day or night action, allows that action to overcome one countering action.
          Example: A strongman cop successfully investigates a target even while roleblocked.
          Example: A strongman vigilante successfully kills a target even while that target is doctored.

--When applied to a day or night action, does not allow that action to overcome more than one countering action.
          Example: A strongman doctor fails to protect a target if he is both roleblocked and jailkept.
          Example: A strongman roleblocker fails to block a target if he is redirected while that target is jailkept.


Commonly modified actions: kills
Related Modifiers: Strongwilled



We'd have "countering actions" defined and listed as well, or within role definitions, we'd say what they countered.

The text is debatable, of course -- I know some feel that strongman should beat everything; I think that's strongwilled.

[pacovf]

          Example: A strongman roleblocker fails to block a target if he is redirected while that target is jailkept.

... so is he redirected or blocked, in this case? What if he is redirected to two different people instead? Are you sure you want to put redirections in the same category as "counters"?

[faust]

Well, I for one still think that Strongman should be restricted to protective roles.

Other than that, I'm skeptical towards the introduction of a new category, "countering". We already have enough categories, and this is particularly confusing because it will mean roles will fall into two or more categories that overlap each other. And I don't see a use for the "countering" category other than Strongman, so maybe we shouldn't define a whole new thing just for one role.