Just re-read shraeye. Something about the way he's going about his arguments seems a little off to me, but I'm not sure if I think that's scummy. Consider his
#520. He talks about and quotes a lot of things, and ends up voting for me. But he doesn't quote me, other than in reference to Eevee and within a Robz quote, and doesn't seem to be paying terribly much attention to anything that I've said. He's focussing a lot more on the case on me (specifically Robz') than on me. Someone (I think it was yuma) said something about day 1 cases being full of misunderstanings, which made me think when I read this that maybe focussing on the cases without looking at the actual evidence is a great way to perpetuate misunderstandings. And yes, I do think the case on me is based on a misunderstanding. You can look at it broadly and say "Oh Jim changed his mind, gradually no less, must be scum" and leave it at that and potentially that looks like a great case. Or you can actually look at things closely as Dsell and theorel have and say "Well actually I understand where he's coming from. I can understand why he thought it was a good case, and I can understand that he felt deflated when he worked out that it wasn't." But shraeye just summarised it all in his own words, seemingly trying to make it seem as scummy as he could.
Then he starts talking about Cuzz:
I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
And what's this scum narrative for me of yours that I'm fitting so perfectly? I'm not saying the idea is inconceivable but you're not backing up your assertions at all here.
I dislike both of these statements. I don't like somebody emptily saying "this fits my scum narrative" without telling people what the narrative is; however, I have done this as town I believe (or at least it feels like something I'd do as town) so I guess I'm a hypocrite. But Cuzz's statement here is much more scummy in my opinion. This is the third post in a row where he's picking apart Eevee's case on him. This comes across to me as a VERY zealous defense, especially because there are only two votes on Cuzz, and Eevee at the same time is facing a much more real wagon. That actually makes things more suspicious to me. The storyline that I see in my mind is that scumCuzz is getting a little bit of heat and notices that somebody suspecting him is seen as suspicious. So he's viciously attacking a case that didn't feel all that weak to me. Trying to paint Eevee as even worse for having made this case.
Now reading this I start to think, "Yeah. Cuzz is pretty scummy, with his 'VERY zealous defense' and 'viciously attacking a case'."
But then I go back and look at what Cuzz actually said in response to Eevee:
Eevee your voting for Cuzz seems strange. You seemed to sheep what I didn't think was that strong an argument by Galz, and later you said you had a noread on Cuzz, and that you buy his reasons for being silent. What about Cuzz makes you think he's scummy?
Ditto
Cuzz has said very little, and what he has said I haven't agreed with. I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
Yes, I realize this is somewhat unfair for Cuzz, but I really do think this game needs more voting.
Examples, maybe? You also said this earlier:
Cuzz
Noread, but I buy his reasons for being this silent.
so I'm not sure what changed.
And what's this scum narrative for me of yours that I'm fitting so perfectly? I'm not saying the idea is inconceivable but you're not backing up your assertions at all here.
Vote: Eevee
Vote: Eevee
Are you voting for me because you think I'm inventing suspicion on you?
Because you said a bunch of stuff in your "explanation" of your vote on me that you didn't back up at all, and I found that scummy.
Vote: Eevee
Are you voting for me because you think I'm inventing suspicion on you?
Because you said a bunch of stuff in your "explanation" of your vote on me that you didn't back up at all, and I found that scummy.
Okay. It's meh, voting without explanations is scummy, I wanted to put my vote somewhere because not voting just seems pointless, but I can't voice my tiny suspicions on you very well.
I thought it was wrong to suspect you before you actually had time to post. Now you have had, and you still don't seem towny to me. Might have a scum bias on you though, especially now. But it's fine, even "bad" suspicions are good because they bring out reactions.
The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time. But giving Jimmm hard time about his wording about voting me is reasonable, I give you that. Still, nothing you has said has stricken to me as a particularly towny. Again, I just wanted my vote somewhere, and it is maybe unfair of me to put it down on you just because you haven't given me townvibes when there'd be plenty of other, just as deserving people.
Bolded bit is completely untrue.
Eevee, can you respond to these two things, because I feel like our little back and forth died and I was having fun with it.
1. What do you mean by this?
I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
2. How can you justify this statement when at the time I had done no such thing?
The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time.
Well, Jimm has managed to completely destroy the towncred he had in my eyes. His total 180 on Eevee makes no sense to me.
I actually continue to find Eevee scum, based on some of the better of the earlier reasons (I still say him not knowing his PM was an exaggeration at least), and also, what Munch said about him. He does feel off. And look, I usually get huge townreads on Eevee, and I'm usually right about it. The last game, Eevee was scum, and I did not get an immediate huge townread on Eevee. So I am at least somewhat competent at reading Eevee, and you know what? I definitely see this Eevee as closer to scum!Eevee than town!Eevee.
But Jimm, I absolutely do not get Jimm's unwillingness to lynch Eevee. Like, I am not willing to say "I won't vote for X" about anyone except myself and Dsell.
Raerae also said the thing about being against the Eevee lynch, and that also bothered me. Look people, something is off with Eevee. That's my conclusion, anyway.
I'm not sure what's scummier: Eevee, or not recognizing how suspicious Eevee is.
So anyway, my scumread on Eevee remains relatively high, and Jimm has now joined that list. He also looks like he's scrambling to justify his Eevee opinions now. That's not a good sign.
Vote: Eevee again, I guess.
I totally agree with everything in this post.
Eevee (4): TheMunch, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888
There has to be scum on this somewhere, or Eevee is scum.
Why do you say this? (and yes I do think Eevee is scum of course)
Pausing in my reread as I just saw the latest votecount, but really? 4 votes on fuzzy? The Eevee lynch is bad and you should all feel bad.
Honestly, I'm not like super best most awesome person at reading Eevee in the WORLD, but I'm usually pretty damn good. I cannot honestly recall the last time I genuinely wanted his head when we were both town (ok, that's a lie. I did BRIEFLY on D2 of a Blitz game awhile back, but I had resolved it by the end of the day), and I REALLY cannot remember the last time I actively mislynched him. His last two scum games I've nailed him as scum D1 (even if I couldn't get a lynch through).
My point is, town!Eevee is ALWAYS controversial in some way, and he ALWAYS reads scummy for it. Scum!Eevee is much more apathetic, and has a "oh, whatever" attitude towards the game. He sits there bemoaning how awfully he's playing instead of biting at the chomp to try and be better.
This Eevee is not scum!Eevee.
I'm not italicizing that because I have some secret inside information, I'm italicizing it because I'm damn confident of my read here.
With that said, I'm going to change the focus of my reread to the 4 people on Eevee's wagon, because I find it highly doubtful that the terrible cases made on Eevee have been wholly supported by town.
Terrible? Terrible?? Come on man, the cases on Eevee aren't terrible. Maybe you don't buy them but they really aren't terrible. objectively, they aren't. Jimm's contradiction thing ended up being unsound, but there's a lot more to it. Ugh.
Again I agree with Robz. I actually think the case on Eevee is growing more solid. And those freaking out about 4 votes need to unbunch their undergarments of choice. I can point to two recent games (one ongoing, that's all I'll say) in which a wagon has gotten to L-2 even sooner than this, and we have the same conversation every time: Anyone who pushes any wagon to or over the brink prematurely D1 will be regarded as scum. L-4 is nothing.
Eevee's interaction with me earlier surrounding his vote on me was super scummy, and included an honest to goodness lie in his justification for said vote. The case is far from terrible. Let's not get confused by the fact that there did exist earlier cases on Eevee that were terrible.
cuzz, I didnt intentionally lie. you've been critical of me, it's easy to get confused when you are town and don't check all the facts super carefully. apologies.
Eevee I want a full response to my post #421:
Eevee, can you respond to these two things, because I feel like our little back and forth died and I was having fun with it.
1. What do you mean by this?
I am keeping my vote on him until someone does something more suspicious or until he stops fitting my scum narrative for him perfectly.
2. How can you justify this statement when at the time I had done no such thing?
The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time.
Fwiw, especially mid part of the day this far, I think I've played MUCH like my town self. Like, having a bunch of town reads and no real scum reads and being suspected a lot certainly rings a bell.
Is thinking a lot about your Town meta scummy? I'm genuinely asking.
In this case it is because Eevee happens to be scum.
I probably need sleep, I'm gettin' all tunnelly here.
To me, this isn't a vicious attack, or an overly zealous defense, and I agree with a lot of what he says here. He was accused of something (calling Eevee scummy) which wasn't true, and Eevee's vote on him seemed to come from nowhere. Cuzz was questioning Eevee about both of these things, as he rightly should have, and wasn't really getting a good response from him, and concluded that Eevee was scummy based on what was at best strange behaviour.
Then there was this:
Okay well to be clear, I won't be supporting a Galz lynch today (unless something drastically changes), but he'll be fair game tomorrow.
This post is the tipping point for me between the Cuzz/Jimmmm vote. This looks a lot like the springboard to a day2 lynch, already in place. When I get a townread on somebody and don't want to lynch them (Eevee, Robz, raerae, liopoil, Dsell thus far--and not in that order, I haven't thought about order yet), I would NEVER say "but they're fair game tomorrow". Why are you afraid to let your current townreads bleed over? A logical reason (and the one I reach in my head) is that you don't want to box yourself in as scum and get to a situation where you're left either lynching a townread, or doing another 180 flip on somebody.
Here, as someone (theorel I think?) pointed out, he ignores the context of this post and the reasons why I said it, and invents a Town read that I supposedly had on Galz.
I didn't think this scolding was necessary:
Ok guys, you ready?!?! Slowpoke over here is going to vote: Eevee! There was a lot going on with Eevee early in the game and a bunch of people expressed a similar feeling as me (I remember what my biggest read the first time through was!) that Eevee just really feels off/different/whatever you want to call it. The hardest part about my read on Eevee under closer examination is that I am having a really hard time putting my finger specifically what is bothering me about Eevee's play this time around.
Yeah there was the whole dsell calling eevee out for saying town instead of station aligned early on but what was really offputting to me about it was the way that Eevee handled it. In the same post that Eevee acknowledges being called out he corrects the mistake. Ok not a huge deal but then there is the pushing a Galz scum read for no reason. Then there has just been the general way he has been responding to pressure. Then there was a post later when he comments on a post by liopoil that feels buddying in a minipulative kind of way. It seemed like I wasn't the only one that got an offputting impression from Eevee and then that all dissipated for what I can see as no real reason.
I will post my other reads (next is Ashersky, that ones going to be fun) in my next post but I really think we should talk about Eevee a bunch more.
Stop this nonsense, Munch. I know that you hate this sort of argument as a reason for voting, and I'm appalled that you are using it without qualms here. I think the general way he has been responding to pressure has made him sound towny to me. The bolded sentence that you provide is the reason you should unvote Eevee. You said that this impression has dissipated. Don't rely on stale "feelings" that you can't describe, that is not how *you* scumhunt well.
Here shraeye is making out that Munch is saying "Oh I used to think Eevee was scummy but I'm not sure why, but I'll still vote for him anyway" when in fact he's saying "I don't understand why everyone's dropped off the Eevee wagon."
Nervous is a better word than erratic. Jimmmm is nervous.
I agree with this.
To me this reads like he's just taking the opportunity to remind everyone of this, but again without giving any reasons. He just seems to want to perpetuate the general idea.
Also, the deflection thing:
Was there any talk of lynching me for LAL before Cuzz mentioned it? Because if not, I think your deflection argument holds a lot of weight.
Actually, this deflection is much more serious than I thought. I went back page by page, searching for Glooble's name. The last time it came up while talking about lurking was this post by Robz more than 2 days ago. Cuzz did just bring it up.
We really want to lynch the guy who is suddenly the MOST active?
Galz's analysis of lurkers was sound. I am confident we should get one of them today.
I think that's the opposite of Galz's analysis of lurkers. Wasn't he saying no one is really lurking very much? The two lowest people are actually contributing substance, and then we have Glooble, and obvtown, and up from there it's not really lurking. I think Galz was saying that lurking actually isn't an issue here.
What's more, Theorel explained (and I agree with him) why that's happening: the scum are actually scumhunting for the other faction.
I am sensitive to the fact that my top scumreads are on the most active players who aren't me, and maybe that's a problem with my reads, but I'm not sure LALL is going to cut here, and I don't think Galz was arguing for it, anyway.
Again, I actually agree with Cuzz. You've been on his case for ages about how defensive you think he's been, and then he starts talking about something else and suddenly he's scummy for deflecting. How exactly is he supposed to respond? What's the non-scummy way to respond to a case?
Anyway, I think shraeye has quite often been painting things as scummier than they actually are, either by seemingly misunderstanding them, which is strange coming from someone who said, "I see no reason why someone who is normally rational to stop acting that way, it's not a better way to play mafia in my opinion, and it's not an easy mistake for a normally rational person to start making bad arguments.", or by talking about vaguely and spinning things to make it sounds like something very suspicious is afoot.
So I'm certainly not sold on shraeye's scumhunting method, but whether that makes him scum or just someone who's trying too hard to get people to believe his reads, I'm not sure.