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[Eevee]

Reasons: Process of elimination / lack of better targets, both him and sparky have played the way they play scum in my opinion, hasn't been able to give out town vibes or make analysis that has seemed towny to me. Post count on the lower end of the spectrum.

[liopoil]

I think the fact that his lynch would give info along with the fact that he is likely hated aren't basis of a lynch, but a reason to be slighty more inclined to lynch him if we also think that he is acting like scum.

This game is very confusing. I am not nearly as sure about many of the things I have said in many of my posts. I have forgotten my arguments for/against people. I am going to Unvote until I can do a thorough re-read of a lot of things.

[liopoil]

When exactly is the deadline?

[Jimmmmm]

ash's recent posts have read towny to me

See, this is what I'm talking about. Saying "X read Y to me" just seems to be coming all too naturally for someone who has never had to make Town/scum reads before. I get the impression that you are offering token reads to make sure that you have some sort of an opinion, similar to what you were doing in ZMIX. Having said that, your second point is more what I would expect.

In ZMIX I pushed hard for a lynch on raerae on D1. Also I'm confused what you mean by token reads? Do you find me scummy because I am not making strong enough reads, or do you find me scummy for making too strong reads as it is my first game as town.

Lastly Jim I believe you have taken my post about ash out of context as you did with your case on eevee to make your argument seem stronger. This seems intrinsically scummy, as you have done it twice now.

Okay, I'll do my best to answer this. You seems to have a problem with clipping quotes, but I'm going to clip them anyway, since otherwise this will be a very long post, and that's what you do when you're talking about one part of a post, and not the full post. If you want the full context, there's a link to each post on top of the quote.

I don't think this is ever a good idea, if you have reads but don't have time to explain them, say that and wait to post reads till you can explain. Saying town read on X and scum read on X with no backup hurts town in my opinion.

Seeing as you said this, you need to be held to this standard just as much as anyone else.

I read through everything and dunno, get a slight scum vibe from eevee and liopoil. To explain eevee reminds me of how he played in the last blits game, and liopoil, well i think I'm just suspicious of him because hes new and when I was new I was scum.

One token read, one joke (just pointing that out because I'm ignoring it). It's easy enough to say "Eevee's scum because he reminds me of his last game". How does he remind you of his last game? Examples?

Long time goes by and he mentions the fact that jimm and eevee could both be scum which is a definite possibility although i'm inclined to thing eevee is town.

Why are you inclined to think Eevee's town? Last we heard from you he was scummy.

Eevee: Wow, through all the town/station case in the end you came out with a pretty null read from me. Your post about Jimm being not a good lynch for today but possible in the future was a pretty solid thought, and I believe you about not caring about the flavor. It is a very complicated universe making it hard for outsiders to understand. Upon reading your opinions on a group of people, I get a scummy vibe from you. Of the 8 people you analysed, which has no order to them, curious how you came up with this group, you found one scum read, galz which you gave no explanation for. You've often said these long post of analysis on people are towny and helpful I do not find yours to be.
So in the end I still have a scum read on you mainly stemming from your analysis post.

Again, what about his analysis post? Point to what he said that you thought was scummy, and why you thought it was scummy.

Went to bed at 11, woke up at 9 to 4 pages!
unvote this is because of two reason, the second being knowingly terrible, 1) ash's recent posts have read towny to me and 2) my scum read on him is from posts pages and pages ago, they have been lost in so many other things I couldn't make a case on him if I was asked to.

How have they seemed towny to you?

As far as TheMunch is concerned, I have pretty much a null read on him, I lean slightly toward scum because when I ctrl/F his name there is a small gap where I assume he was getting caught up, he then posts some reads and information and then another huge gap where he posts nothing.

You think he's scummy because he sleeps? Why do you think these gaps make him scummy?

I do however have a strong scum read on Jim now because of the way he has acted under pressure and because of the case he has made against me. I believe his case against me is poor and flawed, I would like him to answer my previous question or at least explain what he meant. I will quote it in the next post for reference.

How have I acted under pressure? Refer to a post. Why does having what you think is a poor case against you scummy?

(Questions largely rhetorical)

Like I said, I've been getting a weird vibe from you all game, and I think I've figured out why, but I'm not having the easiest time explaining it. I just think that someone in their first game as Town is likely to get to the point where they say "I just don't know! You're ALL scum! But you're all Town!" This can be a very frustrating and confusing game, especially in your first game as Town. But I'm just not getting that "first game as Town" vibe from you. You just seem to me to be chugging along throwing out "reads".

Is this a strong case? I don't know. Obviously mcmc will disagree with it. In general I don't think I have terribly much pull, but mcmc's game has just struck me as a little odd, and hopefully this explains a little clearer why.

[Eevee]

My town read on liopoil is dwindling fwiw. I also got to remember mcmc was able to fool me in last game and both PPS and Young Nick back in VII, so I might not give new guys enough credit as scum players because I myself sucked so bad at it. Still wouldn't want to lynch the new guy on day 1, purely for off-game "lets be a welcoming community" reasons I realize are not very good.

Jimm's case on mcmc looks decent. I wouldn't oppose lynching mcmc.

[ashersky]

Reasons: Process of elimination / lack of better targets, both him and sparky have played the way they play scum in my opinion, hasn't been able to give out town vibes or make analysis that has seemed towny to me. Post count on the lower end of the spectrum.

Can you elaborate on these?  I want to be able to spot scum!Munch.

[ashersky]

I think the fact that his lynch would give info along with the fact that he is likely hated aren't basis of a lynch, but a reason to be slighty more inclined to lynch him if we also think that he is acting like scum.

This game is very confusing. I am not nearly as sure about many of the things I have said in many of my posts. I have forgotten my arguments for/against people. I am going to Unvote until I can do a thorough re-read of a lot of things.

I think the bolded part is misinformation at this point, and you should not keep spreading it.  The chance that he's actually hated is pretty low, it was clear he just wanted time to make a claim if needed, to me.  I understand that feeling, given I also live in Australia (and have been lynched in my sleep often), so our time zones are way off from most everyone else.

[Eevee]

Well, as I said, I've PoE'd into this vote, so it's not something I'm super confident about nor do I want to appear such. That being said, sparky posted very little. Don't quote me on this, but I think his posts were long and sort of confusing. I don't know what sparky is like as town, but that's who he is like as scum. This is a very minor point, but sparky not appearing towny to me is certainly a strike against Munch.

Munch hasn't done anything ballistic insane I read can only be done by town, he isn't in crazy tunneling mode, nothing like that. He is posting some, less than I would expect but not by a lot, weighing in on things without really causing too much havoc. I think that's just more scum munch than town munch. I didn't go back to reread if this is accurate, this is me trying to explain the feelings behind me voting for him. I do see how most of it comes down to YMMV/ "you have to take my word for it".

[liopoil]

oh okay. Robz told me it meant he was softcaiming it or something. nevermind!

oh of course. I know hammering before people can claim is frowned upon...

[Robz888]

oh okay. Robz told me it meant he was softcaiming it or something. nevermind!

oh of course. I know hammering before people can claim is frowned upon...

I thought he was, but other people seem to think not.

[ashersky]

oh okay. Robz told me it meant he was softcaiming it or something. nevermind!

oh of course. I know hammering before people can claim is frowned upon...

I thought he was, but other people seem to think not.

I really think he was just saying he was willing to claim at L-2 or whatever, not that he would die at L-1.  I mean, that's easily proved, right?

[liopoil]

I agree now. I don't think he is hated. When we were talking about it he didn't go either way. If he posted the thing about giving him a chance to claim with the intention of giving us the idea that he is hated then he would have just claimed to be hated in the insuing discussion.

[ashersky]

Well, as I said, I've PoE'd into this vote, so it's not something I'm super confident about nor do I want to appear such. That being said, sparky posted very little. Don't quote me on this, but I think his posts were long and sort of confusing. I don't know what sparky is like as town, but that's who he is like as scum. This is a very minor point, but sparky not appearing towny to me is certainly a strike against Munch.

Munch hasn't done anything ballistic insane I read can only be done by town, he isn't in crazy tunneling mode, nothing like that. He is posting some, less than I would expect but not by a lot, weighing in on things without really causing too much havoc. I think that's just more scum munch than town munch. I didn't go back to reread if this is accurate, this is me trying to explain the feelings behind me voting for him. I do see how most of it comes down to YMMV/ "you have to take my word for it".

A good point you make here is that TheMunch isn't make bold statements on people, which is a town!munch trait.  He's quite the bold predicter, usually.  So I can see him getting some scum points.

[shraeye]

Eevee's interaction with me earlier surrounding his vote on me was super scummy, and included an honest to goodness lie in his justification for said vote. The case is far from terrible. Let's not get confused by the fact that there did exist earlier cases on Eevee that were terrible.

Please stop tunnelling so hard.  Eevee's statement wasn't a straight-up lie, it was just an exaggeration.  Nobody read it and said "oh cuzz IS always calling Eevee scummy."

It was indeed a lie. Eevee said this:

The thing I didn't agree with was you calling me scummy all the time.

At the time to which he is referring (ie, the time of his vote) I had not called him scummy once outside of RVS, let alone "all the time." I had in fact defended him once or twice. I don't know if it was a malicious scum lie, a lazy scum lie, or a lazy town lie, but it was certainly an untruth of some sort.

my point wasn't to argue the veracity of Eevee's claim.  It's that the way you bolded and italicized the word lie (and you had mentioned this lie other times as well) really was painting it as a malicious lie.  My point was that it wasn't a malicious lie at all in my opinion, and I thought you were pushing that point rather hard.

But Cuzz's statement here is much more scummy in my opinion.  This is the third post in a row where he's picking apart Eevee's case on him.  This comes across to me as a VERY zealous defense, especially because there are only two votes on Cuzz, and Eevee at the same time is facing a much more real wagon.  That actually makes things more suspicious to me.  The storyline that I see in my mind is that scumCuzz is getting a little bit of heat and notices that somebody suspecting him is seen as suspicious.  So he's viciously attacking a case that didn't feel all that weak to me.  Trying to paint Eevee as even worse for having made this case.

Also, the wording of Cuzz's post above sets off some of my scumtells.  The "I have reason to be suspected, but you aren't explaining yourself at all.  I'm getting caught for no reason" scumtell to be precise.

Here again cuzz is getting angry at not having a "legitimate reason" for the votes on him.  Also this vote back on Eevee is 100% OMGUS in my book, and the logical conclusion at the end of the tunnel that Cuzz has been running down.  The last time I saw tunnelly Cuzz, it was in Buffy mafia where I was telling Cuzz/yuma to stop tunnelling the bejeezus out of eachother.  End story there was Cuzz was scum and yuma was town (yeah Cuzz was SK, but SK is scum in my book; same survivalist, lynch-anybody-but-my-team goals as mafia). So this makes me very suspicious of Cuzz.

These last two posts represent my least favorite part of mafia. That's the notion that defensiveness and voting for someone who voted you are both inherently scum behavior. You take issue with me "picking apart Eevee's case" on me. Well guess what? I thought it was a pretty damn awful case that he entirely failed to back up with evidence and I wanted to poke at it to determine if the lack of justification for his vote on me was scummy or lazy.
The issue I had here was how zealously you were picking it apart.  People are allowed to be defensive, naturally.  But it is true that mafia has extra incentive to be defensive; so I called you out when it felt like you were going over what was necessary.

About the "zealous defense" you mention, you're trying to paint it as over the top and out of proportion since I only had two votes on me. Well, I don't care about the votes on me. I'm not even really "defending myself". I'm picking apart what I find to be a bad case that happens to be against me. It doesn't matter how many votes are on me for me to do that.
I don't understand how you can say you are trying to pick apart a bad case, and at the same time say you aren't defending yourself.  That IS defending yourself.  I'm painting it as over the top, because it felt over the top.

With respect to your "tunneling Cuzz is scum Cuzz" remark, again I want to make clear what I had been doing in all the quotes you give. I'm not saying "hey all, Eevee is definitely scum, let's lynch him right now." That constitutes tunneling in my mind. What I had been doing was pressing Eevee himself to back up his case so I can gauge his reaction and not let him get away with making lazy unsubstantiated statements, so I can then decide if I think he's scum or not. So far, I have been unsatisfied with his responses and my vote on him remains.

And from the 2nd quote there, you didn't touch the issue of "those are the wrong reasons for voting for me".  That is most important in my mind.  I made the quotes smaller so people could actually read things, but if you go back and look at my original case on you (it's quoted in this post, so easy to find) I was pointing out how your statements seem to say "there are reasons to be voting for me, but Eevee is voting for me for NO GOOD reasons".  The point being that there are good reasons for voting for you.



Also note: I am catching up, and haven't read past post #545 yet.

[Robz888]

Well, as I said, I've PoE'd into this vote, so it's not something I'm super confident about nor do I want to appear such. That being said, sparky posted very little. Don't quote me on this, but I think his posts were long and sort of confusing. I don't know what sparky is like as town, but that's who he is like as scum. This is a very minor point, but sparky not appearing towny to me is certainly a strike against Munch.

Munch hasn't done anything ballistic insane I read can only be done by town, he isn't in crazy tunneling mode, nothing like that. He is posting some, less than I would expect but not by a lot, weighing in on things without really causing too much havoc. I think that's just more scum munch than town munch. I didn't go back to reread if this is accurate, this is me trying to explain the feelings behind me voting for him. I do see how most of it comes down to YMMV/ "you have to take my word for it".

A good point you make here is that TheMunch isn't make bold statements on people, which is a town!munch trait.  He's quite the bold predicter, usually.  So I can see him getting some scum points.

I don't know if it's a town!Munch trait anymore, really. I think newbie Munch was just overly bold, and he's gotten older and wiser.

[shraeye]

Munch hasn't done anything ballistic insane I read can only be done by town, he isn't in crazy tunneling mode, nothing like that. He is posting some, less than I would expect but not by a lot, weighing in on things without really causing too much havoc. I think that's just more scum munch than town munch.

A good point you make here is that TheMunch isn't make bold statements on people, which is a town!munch trait.  He's quite the bold predicter, usually.  So I can see him getting some scum points.

I don't know if it's a town!Munch trait anymore, really. I think newbie Munch was just overly bold, and he's gotten older and wiser.

I was about to say something very similar.  Munch was devastated near the end of Switch when his bold reads were totally off.  He is clever enough to change for the better.

[TheMunch]

Hey guys.  Sorry that I haven't been as active as I want to be.  I'm just having a terrible time at making reads.  I dont really want to talk too much about on going games but a lot of my brainpower is still focused on Casino even though I'm dead and I really just want it to be over so I can focus.  That said I'm still like a page or so back, I just wanted to start posting.

I got to about Eevee's vote on my and Ashersky's response (601 and 612 respectively) so I thought I should comment on that.  I will admit fully to acting differently and Shraeye is right that a lot of my confidence got shattered by Switch.  For those of you that followed, CF gaining conf town when he was quite possibly the strongest read I've ever had in forum mafia was very hard for me.  Fortunately I got to be scum in Casino so I didn't have to worry about much.  But Eevee being worried about me because he reads me wrong is a symptom I share about him.  I feel like I read him wrong.  I've been comfortable with my vote sitting on him for quite some time and really hopped that something came of it (what I wanted to come of it I'm going to choose not to share at this time... all I'll say is bad theory is bad, oh well) but at best Eevee's been making me feel weird this game.  His play just seems different.  But I completely understand the sentiment of "this is a player I misread a lot so maybe the opposite of my feeling is correct".  I'm going to unvote for now.

But what made me want to post was Ashersky's response cause I really dont think what Eevee was saying was necessarily scummy.  Perfectly reasonable self reflection but a nulltell at best.  I would say town is just as likely to say that as would scum try to spin a null read into their lynch target, especially one who has been as quiet as myself.  I'm actually surprised because Eevee has been someone thats been weirding me out but his vote on me didn't seem like anything special.  As I go back though, Robz agrees with Ashersky.  I have been very wary to agree with Ashersky... but Robz has been someone who has been making a lot of sense to me this game (which is another thing thats odd cause normally I find myself disagreeing with him a lot, but also come to think of it I think I might have only been scum when I was in a game with Robz; maybe Robz is just doing something different... or is super classy scum ) so I'm inclined to actually agree that Eevee's vote might have actually been scummy.  I've moved on from thinking that Eevee is the right target for today.  Too much has happened. and thats going to be in another post.

[shraeye]

miscellaneous stuff:

Cuzz comes off scummier to me than Eevee. Something about his demeanor seems like he's trying to get a lynch fast, and that doesn't seem like a town mentality.

I am totally not trying to push a lynch fast. I think I've covered this, but I was prodding Eevee for clarifications of his reasoning. I do think his responses and lacks thereof were scummy, but I'm not trying to ram his lynch through asap.

Agreed. I don't think Cuzz was ramming the Eevee lynch through, nor does it seem like he was pushing for any sort of fast lynch.

Nervous is a better word than erratic. Jimmmm is nervous.

I agree with this.

[TheMunch]

I want to put in my 2 cents on Cuzz vs Shraeye back in 545 (I know.  FOREVER Ago

I really dont recall much of the specifics of the Shraeye case when they were actually happening.  Cuzz didn't really do anything to rock my boat reads wise.  But 545 did.  Particularly I feel like Cuzz is overracting to a lot of what Shraeye is saying.  Shraeye's case is very "meh" to me.  I dont think it necessarily pursuades me that Cuzz is scum.  But the way Cuzz responds feels like "this is stupid that I'm getting caught for all the wrong reasons" kind of arguments that I know that I've made before out of frustration (that got me killed in XI).  I feel like Cuzz is someone that overracts as scum the way he did in 545 and I am very willing to vote: Cuzz over that post alone.

[shraeye]

about ashersky, mostly just a list of questions for him it seems

Ash did you misspeak in one of these quotes? They contradict each other.

Townier, but not obv!town.  Most likely town voting for Eevee is Cuzz.

Edit for clarity: calls Cuzz the Most likely scum on the Eevee wagon.

Actually, no, I don't think I misspoke.  Clearly they are opposite.  I don't remember why I felt the first way, but I think the second way is correct.

To clarify, I think the tunneling was too much, and came off scummy with the "lies! lies!" stuff.  I'd say most likely town voting for Eevee is actually Robz.  So maybe I did misspeak?  Maybe I meant most likely scum voting for Eevee the first time, too?  Who was I responding to the first time?

So I misspoke, yes.  Cuzz was most likely scum then and now.

Despite this odd sequence of events, I feel inclined right now to believe ashersky.  I could see myself misspeaking like that.  Is there any sort of other comments you made regarding Cuzz around the time that you misspoke him as "being town" that can prove you thought he was scum then?

Edit: regarding shraeye and raerae
Now, I don't know if that's actual distancing, or they're just playing as different people (because they are), but I don't think it's good practice for any of us to let the shraeray be used as a weapon of mass distraction.

What do you mean by this?  What sort of distancing have you seen between me and raerae?

A sort of subsection about Eevee's Munch vote

On Eevee's Munch vote, you needed to give better reasons than you did.  Like, a reason reason.  Bad reasons are fine with me, btw, if they are something you noted and believe.

What do you mean by that last sentence??  "Bad reasons are fine with you, if they are something that Eevee noted and believes"??  I'm not sure I understand what you mean by that.  As I see it, the problem is that you think Eevee was not voting Munch for good reasons; this below is Eevee's post of reads in which he voted for Munch, I think I clipped it so just his reasons and vote are in there

Sparky is always a super lurker and always scum. Munch has been more active, but hasn't
given me a town vibe. He rarely does though,
but now that I think back of the games we've played I don't think I've read
him wrong THAT often so this would actually be a lynch I could support.

Running out of battery so going to have to cut this one short. Something about the playstyle of munch/shraeye/raerae always reads suspicious to me.
I notice it again here, I wouldn't oppose a case on any of
them and I can't very accurately explain why. I'll Vote: themunch now, but I'm recognizing this problem and my uneasy feeling about him might mean less than it should.

The reasons of lurking, and playing in a manner that feels suspicious appear to be here (though eevee does acknowledge that munch/shraeye/raerae always seem suspicious to him).

But my question to ashersky, what about Eevee's case in particular makes you jump on him.  I feel that this level of reason is on par with people's votes when then argue based on meta-reads.  Like the whole set of people saying "something about eevee feels off" (although this could only be Munch/Robz, those are two that I remember).  Why attack Eevee's vote on Munch as scummy, but not attack Munch's or Robz's vote on Eevee?

[TheMunch]

Well, as I said, I've PoE'd into this vote, so it's not something I'm super confident about nor do I want to appear such. That being said, sparky posted very little. Don't quote me on this, but I think his posts were long and sort of confusing. I don't know what sparky is like as town, but that's who he is like as scum. This is a very minor point, but sparky not appearing towny to me is certainly a strike against Munch.

Munch hasn't done anything ballistic insane I read can only be done by town, he isn't in crazy tunneling mode, nothing like that. He is posting some, less than I would expect but not by a lot, weighing in on things without really causing too much havoc. I think that's just more scum munch than town munch. I didn't go back to reread if this is accurate, this is me trying to explain the feelings behind me voting for him. I do see how most of it comes down to YMMV/ "you have to take my word for it".

A good point you make here is that TheMunch isn't make bold statements on people, which is a town!munch trait.  He's quite the bold predicter, usually.  So I can see him getting some scum points.

Dont make me talk about Casino until its over, please.

[shraeye]

But what made me want to post was Ashersky's response cause I really dont think what Eevee was saying was necessarily scummy.  Perfectly reasonable self reflection but a nulltell at best. ...  As I go back though, Robz agrees with Ashersky.  I have been very wary to agree with Ashersky... but Robz has been someone who has been making a lot of sense to me this game...so I'm inclined to actually agree that Eevee's vote might have actually been scummy.  I've moved on from thinking that Eevee is the right target for today.  Too much has happened. and thats going to be in another post.

I hope that clarification post is coming very soon, because this paragraph is a pile of conflicting ideas.  Could you post the ashersky-response that you are talking about, the one that was a "nulltell at best"?  I'm not sure which one it was, but I think it was his vote for you?

What is confusing me is that you start off by saying Eevee's thing was a nulltell, but that Robz agrees with ashersky that it wasn't.  Thus you are inclined to agree that Eevee's vote actually was scummy.  But then proceed to say that you no longer think Eevee is the right target?

[TheMunch]

What is confusing me is that you start off by saying Eevee's thing was a nulltell, but that Robz agrees with ashersky that it wasn't.  Thus you are inclined to agree that Eevee's vote actually was scummy.  But then proceed to say that you no longer think Eevee is the right target?

Yup.

[shraeye]

What is confusing me is that you start off by saying Eevee's thing was a nulltell, but that Robz agrees with ashersky that it wasn't.  Thus you are inclined to agree that Eevee's vote actually was scummy.  But then proceed to say that you no longer think Eevee is the right target?

Yup.

wat. 
I wasn't summarizing what I thought your post was.  I was pointing out the conflicting parts.
Is Eevee's vote scummy, or is it a nulltell? 
These are different things.

It seems in the end you say Eevee's vote is scummy.  then why is he NOT the right target?  When I think somebody is scummy, I want to lynch them.

[TheMunch]

It seems in the end you say Eevee's vote is scummy.  then why is he NOT the right target?  When I think somebody is scummy, I want to lynch them.

Order of events in my brain (NB: some of these things occurred while writing the post in question):
1) Read Eevee's vote on me.  Went "meh".
2) Read Ashersky's "Everyone thinks this is scummy, right??!!?"
3) I start my response to say "not really"
4) I read Robz post actually agreeing with Ashersky so go "well maybe I could see it, but still would lynch Eevee right now"

Didn't mean to be confusing.