Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[XerxesPraelor]

I'm involved in a few other games; no prod please.

On the hot potato thing, we should definitely use it as an extra lynch or maybe if we want to nolynch to allow powers to be used that could also work.
Why do we need a second person for the items? WHy not just send everything to the IC?

[XerxesPraelor]

IC input would be super helpful.

Who's the IC? I didn't see a mod-confirm yet.

[xeiron]

IC input would be super helpful.

Who's the IC? I didn't see a mod-confirm yet.

RMM15: INNOVATION II

chairs is confirmed town.

Day 1 start!

[xeiron]

I'm involved in a few other games; no prod please.

On the hot potato thing, we should definitely use it as an extra lynch or maybe if we want to nolynch to allow powers to be used that could also work.
Why do we need a second person for the items? WHy not just send everything to the IC?

If we send everything to the IC, then the IC will get 8 itemes, and the mafia wil just send stuff to themself.

If we divide everyone into two groups, who sends items to two different persons, those persons can check how many items they recieve, and we will know what group mafia belongs to if they choose not to send a item according to the plan. That will help us to catch mafia by a process of elimination later in the game.

[XerxesPraelor]

Okay; so if the main point is to deny scum the items wouldn't it be really bad if we chose a mafia member to give the items to? Especially since this is day 1 we aren't able to have strong enough reads to find certain town. That seems like a pretty big hole.

[xeiron]

If they don't kill then we lynch the person that should have died during the night from the potato...

I have no problem with mafia choosing to not use one of their night kills. Priming, if I understand it correctly, basically allows them to prime someone (but not kill) the first night. From then on they can either ignite and kill or continue priming.

So basically if they choose to go this route as their only method of killing then they are basically forfeiting their first night kill and have one less in the game at least (or more if they go through more then one prime-ignition cycles)...

Priming and ignition is actually a strong sort of NK, because it essentially kills someone without removing them from the (mis)lynch pool.

It has one weakness, though. If we lynch the arsonist and the back-up-arsonist, the primed players might never be blown up. This gives mafia the dilemma every night of primining one mor person for more deaths, or to ignite to secure the killings in case the arsonist would be lynched.

If we always no-lynch, we will not take advantage of this weakness. Since we during the day decides on a player to bomb at night, the mafia always knows if the arsonist will be killed or not, and can make it so the the arsonist blows up stuff right before his death.

[xeiron]

Okay; so if the main point is to deny scum the items wouldn't it be really bad if we chose a mafia member to give the items to? Especially since this is day 1 we aren't able to have strong enough reads to find certain town. That seems like a pretty big hole.

We have 8/11 chance if we pick at random. Almost 3/4. The actual chance should be even higher as we do not pick at random, but select the biggest townread. I am comfortable with that risk.   

[pingpongsam]

I'm involved in a few other games; no prod please.

On the hot potato thing, we should definitely use it as an extra lynch or maybe if we want to nolynch to allow powers to be used that could also work.
Why do we need a second person for the items? WHy not just send everything to the IC?

If we send everything to the IC, then the IC will get 8 itemes, and the mafia wil just send stuff to themself.

If we divide everyone into two groups, who sends items to two different persons, those persons can check how many items they recieve, and we will know what group mafia belongs to if they choose not to send a item according to the plan. That will help us to catch mafia by a process of elimination later in the game.

This just does not work. In the obvious case we elect a mafia receiver and the reported results are fraudulent. How can we ever trust the results unless we decide to lynch the receiver the next day to verify his report? Maybe that would work?

In the harder to detect case is the real likelihood that mafia will exist on both teams and depending on the alignment of the elected receiver we can be misled either to that fact or that they exist where they do not.

I think the 2 party receiver plan is completely useless we presume to lynch the 2nd party the next day and I refuse to participate. You can damn me for failure to participate or I can be more subtly damned by a rigged system that won't be detected until too late. I prefer town have reliable information.

[pingpongsam]

A few grammatical errors and disjointed thoughts due to typing on an iPad. I should clarify that I'd like to hear what an effective response would be to results that indicate Mafia is on both sending teams. I think the only sure way to verify results is to lynch the receiver which kind of defeats the purpose of sending him items.

[chairs]

IC input would be super helpful.

Who's the IC? I didn't see a mod-confirm yet.

I'm the IC but am dealing with v/la issues that I keep getting will be cleared up "tomorrow".

[yuma]

I'm involved in a few other games; no prod please.

On the hot potato thing, we should definitely use it as an extra lynch or maybe if we want to nolynch to allow powers to be used that could also work.
Why do we need a second person for the items? WHy not just send everything to the IC?

Why do we want an extra lynch?

If someone modded a game where you could get two lynches in a day would you take it?

I wouldn't. One lynch--especially in the early days--where it is pretty much random isn't worth it when he have the potential for PRs to get conclusive data on who scum is.

Rather... would you prefer to shoot in the dark 5 times or shoot once or twice with the lights on? I'll take the lights on. Part of getting the lights on is lynching randomly once on day1. I get that argument. But I don't see any need to lynch blindly more then we need to do so.

On later days there might be a utility to lynching and using the potato. But now right now.

[yuma]

Let  me be perfectly clear.....

I REFUSE to participate on both the lynch and the potato. If we lynch someone today and the hot potato is passed to me I will not follow any plan that is dictated to me. Perhaps my exlcusion in this process won't make a different, but if we go down this road I encourage others to do so as well and just send the potato to whomever they find scummiest.

This is not my preference. My preference is to no-lynch and use the NK as a pseudolynch and proceed as normal to maximize our preferences

[yuma]

I'm involved in a few other games; no prod please.

On the hot potato thing, we should definitely use it as an extra lynch or maybe if we want to nolynch to allow powers to be used that could also work.
Why do we need a second person for the items? WHy not just send everything to the IC?

If we send everything to the IC, then the IC will get 8 itemes, and the mafia wil just send stuff to themself.

If we divide everyone into two groups, who sends items to two different persons, those persons can check how many items they recieve, and we will know what group mafia belongs to if they choose not to send a item according to the plan. That will help us to catch mafia by a process of elimination later in the game.

Why not expand this a bit then? Instead of sending to the IC and 1 other person, why not send to the IC and 2 or 3?

This does expand the chance that a few items get sent to mafia, but it does eliminate the possibility mafia getting such a large suprplus and continues to utilize the checking of how many items were received... and actually helps that attribute as the pools will be 2 or 3 people sending instead of 5 if someone doesn't get an item sent.

Of course we still run into the problem that PPS brought up about not being able to trust the receivers.

Really, my thoughts on this setup are however, that the less planning we do is probably the best. I like the pseudo lynch for reasons I have outlined, but I believe this to be a well designed setup that makes planning less optimal--which is good for the game in my belief as we will actually have to rely more on reads and good use of night actions, which we are perfectly capable of doing!

[EFHW]

IC input would be super helpful.

Who's the IC? I didn't see a mod-confirm yet.

I'm the IC but am dealing with v/la issues that I keep getting will be cleared up "tomorrow".

chairs has asked to /out.  He is replaced by sudgy.  Thank you sudgy!

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.1

ashersky (1): faust
faust (3): ashersky, xeiron, pingpongsam
pingpongsam (1): Jimmmmm

not voting (7): A Drowned Kernel, Archetype, sudgy, mail-mi, Witherweaver, XerxesPraelor, yuma

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.  Deadline is Thursday, May 29th at 8 pm

[faust]

I'm involved in a few other games; no prod please.

On the hot potato thing, we should definitely use it as an extra lynch or maybe if we want to nolynch to allow powers to be used that could also work.
Why do we need a second person for the items? WHy not just send everything to the IC?

Why do we want an extra lynch?

If someone modded a game where you could get two lynches in a day would you take it?

I wouldn't. One lynch--especially in the early days--where it is pretty much random isn't worth it when he have the potential for PRs to get conclusive data on who scum is.

Rather... would you prefer to shoot in the dark 5 times or shoot once or twice with the lights on? I'll take the lights on. Part of getting the lights on is lynching randomly once on day1. I get that argument. But I don't see any need to lynch blindly more then we need to do so.

On later days there might be a utility to lynching and using the potato. But now right now.

I mostly disagree here.

So you understand that a mostly random lynch on day 1 is usually preferable to no lynch. If so, I don't get the argument why a second such lynch (with more information, as we already had the first lynch) would suddenly be detrimental. You're saying you prefer to shoot with lights on once or twice over shooting in the dark 5 times. Only, that's not the decision we have. The decision in front of us is, do we prefer to shoot in the dark 2-3 times, then shoot in the light once or twice, or do we only shoot once or twice in the light. And here, I don't understand how you would want to take the second option.

[faust]

Why not expand this a bit then? Instead of sending to the IC and 1 other person, why not send to the IC and 2 or 3?

This does expand the chance that a few items get sent to mafia, but it does eliminate the possibility mafia getting such a large suprplus and continues to utilize the checking of how many items were received... and actually helps that attribute as the pools will be 2 or 3 people sending instead of 5 if someone doesn't get an item sent.

Two reasons that speak for having only one other receiver:
- 1. the chance that mafia gets items is higher, when part of the purpose of this plan is to not provide them items. You already said this.
- 2. powers that require lots of items to be built are the strongest. The less items we accumulate on one person, the less likely they are to be able to produce a really good power.

Generally, the more players we take into account, the more this gets shifted from a high risk - high reward strategy to a strategy that only gives us less benefit, but also can't go awfully wrong. Now I'm more the kind of guy who would take the risk, but I understand if other players have different opinions on this.

[XerxesPraelor]

I don't like taking that kind of risk - it makes the game rely way too much on how good our reads are today rather than helping to develop them and still be useful.

Also, since there are probably 3 scum, then we can calculate whether random kills are good or bad to do. I think that two lynches a day would be a good idea, especially later in the game, because we end up mislynching the people that scum primed, it's pretty much a wasted NK for them, which is kind of bad, especially when they have to spend an extra day igniting. More flips can also facilitate better reads depending on wagons too.

[faust]

I don't like taking that kind of risk - it makes the game rely way too much on how good our reads are today rather than helping to develop them and still be useful.

Also, since there are probably 3 scum, then we can calculate whether random kills are good or bad to do. I think that two lynches a day would be a good idea, especially later in the game, because we end up mislynching the people that scum primed, it's pretty much a wasted NK for them, which is kind of bad, especially when they have to spend an extra day igniting. More flips can also facilitate better reads depending on wagons too.

Vote: Xerxes

[XerxesPraelor]

Not this thing again? I thought we agreed in the last game that it's okay to make guesses based on the number of players?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I mostly disagree here.

So you understand that a mostly random lynch on day 1 is usually preferable to no lynch. If so, I don't get the argument why a second such lynch (with more information, as we already had the first lynch) would suddenly be detrimental. You're saying you prefer to shoot with lights on once or twice over shooting in the dark 5 times. Only, that's not the decision we have. The decision in front of us is, do we prefer to shoot in the dark 2-3 times, then shoot in the light once or twice, or do we only shoot once or twice in the light. And here, I don't understand how you would want to take the second option.

The problem is we don't actually have that much more information, since we have to decide on the second lynch before we get the flip for the first lynch, so we'll essentially have 2 "random" day one lynches.

[faust]

I mostly disagree here.

So you understand that a mostly random lynch on day 1 is usually preferable to no lynch. If so, I don't get the argument why a second such lynch (with more information, as we already had the first lynch) would suddenly be detrimental. You're saying you prefer to shoot with lights on once or twice over shooting in the dark 5 times. Only, that's not the decision we have. The decision in front of us is, do we prefer to shoot in the dark 2-3 times, then shoot in the light once or twice, or do we only shoot once or twice in the light. And here, I don't understand how you would want to take the second option.

The problem is we don't actually have that much more information, since we have to decide on the second lynch before we get the flip for the first lynch, so we'll essentially have 2 "random" day one lynches.

We can still do a "if A flips scum, do that, if A flips town, do this". It's a little convoluted, but managable.

[faust]

Not this thing again? I thought we agreed in the last game that it's okay to make guesses based on the number of players?

Problem is: We all KNOW there are three scum. Yet you are making it sound as though you don't know it. That looks very much like scum thinking: "Well, I know who my partners are, but I shouldn't write that I know there are three mafia, so I'll throw in a 'probably'".

[pingpongsam]

I repeat:

I'd like to hear what an effective response would be to results that indicate Mafia is on both sending teams.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Not this thing again? I thought we agreed in the last game that it's okay to make guesses based on the number of players?

Problem is: We all KNOW there are three scum. Yet you are making it sound as though you don't know it. That looks very much like scum thinking: "Well, I know who my partners are, but I shouldn't write that I know there are three mafia, so I'll throw in a 'probably'".

To me it looks more like "didn't read the setup thinking".