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[nsnyder]

The recent thread about decline of civility on Istropic reminds me that I would really like to have a list somewhere of the people who are rude and obscene so that I can avoid playing them.  In particular, I've had several terrible experiences with yourface.  I just had a game where ddubois was very rude (and he came up three times in the civility thread as an example of someone being particularly rude and obscene).  Could we come up with a good list of the people to avoid?

Everyone gets frustrated now and then, but people who are frequently rude, obscene, or offensive just aren't fun to play with.

[AJD]

Perhaps unsurprisingly, "penis".

[theory]

I'm going to keep this topic open, but to be honest I don't think this is a good idea.  Different people have different opinions of rudeness.  I don't doubt that the object of your complaint must have been acting quite rudely for you and three others to comment on him, but I'm not sure that for us to maintain kind of public communal blacklist is wise.

Remember that you can mute your opponent on Isotropic.

[nsnyder]

People who were mentioned multiple times in the other thread or quoted saying obscene things (though I have not personally had experiences playing with them):
I love you
indomitable
Rambo888
Copper-nicus
lazmaster

[nsnyder]

Sorry theory, in going through that thread I found your comment saying you weren't excited about such a list.  I had missed that page the first time (I wasn't following the thread closely).  If you want to delete this thread I won't be offended.

Anyway, mute doesn't really help unless you know which players to mute.  Once I've had an experience like with one of these players I don't want to play them whether or not they can talk.  I play dominion for fun and it's not fun to play against the likes of yourface and ddubois.

What I would really like is some way to automatically mute all players who get enough complaints, but dougz doesn't want to implement that feature, and so this seemed like the second best option.

[Robz888]

People who were mentioned multiple times in the other thread or quoted saying obscene things (though I have not personally had experiences playing with them):
I love you
indomitable
Rambo888
Copper-nicus
lazmaster

I took a quick look at the above post and momentarily panicked. I'm nice, I swear! I always apologize to people profusely as I Torturer chain them!

But now I see that's not me. Ah, relief.

[jotheonah]

I agree with theory ... This could be abused and get ugly really fast.

For instance, I once got into an argument on isotropic when someone accused me and the other player (it was a 3-player game) of getting "really lucky" with our Tournaments since he had bought the first Province and the most Tournaments and yet gotten third pick of the prizes.  But I had bought a Tactician and the other player had bought Native Villages, whereas Mr. "Unlucky" was relying on random chance to put his Tournaments and Province together. When I politely pointed out that this was a matter of strategy and not luck he accused me of being rude and combative and lots of other unreasonable things and eventually muted me.

I can imagine a person like that putting me on a list like this and that would be pretty terrible and unfair.

[nsnyder]

In 3000+ games I've only had 3 people I had terrible experiences with (I can't remember the third one's handle).  There's got to be some way to distinguish the 1/1000 outliers from ordinary behavior.

[theory]

I can imagine a person like that putting me on a list like this and that would be pretty terrible and unfair.

Also, I don't want to be a judge charged with arbitrating all these disputes.

[nsnyder]

That's why I only included people who were multiple offenders or called people offensive names.

[nsnyder]

Actually a script to automatically mute people who use homophobic slurs might actually catch most of the really obnoxious players.

[jotheonah]

I could get behind that. As long as it's not an unmoderated blacklist.

[nsnyder]

What I wanted was something where you could just flag people as offensive, and if it happened too often the person would get banned.  But probably better would be to just automatically mute them for a month or something if they get flagged by 3 different people.

[ddubois]

If it's only been three people in 5000 games, it should be easy enough to remember us.

[dondon151]

I can imagine a person like that putting me on a list like this and that would be pretty terrible and unfair.

We're a civil community, though. I highly doubt some random nobody would waltz into this thread, request to put a person on the blacklist, and everyone else being fine with it.

I also don't think we'd agree to blacklist someone unless there's evidence of repeated offenses.

[Thisisnotasmile]

I would like to add theory, rrenaud, WanderingWinder, guided, Geronimoo, ackack and Thisisnotasmile to this list. They are all horrible people who shouldn't be allowed to use the internet.

[popsofctown]

I loll'ed at the last one.

[Fabian]

I've encountered 3 people on isotropic/this forum I can think of that I would consider eing somewhere between rude/obnoxious/moronic. Overall, not too big a deal for me, seeing as I've met/played quite a lot of people in total, and after a while you just start rolling your eyes at those outliers.

[theory]

Oh, if you want to report someone on this forum, then PMing me (or reporting the post in question) is absolutely encouraged.  Isotropic is of course another story.

[Donald X.]

I would like to add theory, rrenaud, WanderingWinder, guided, Geronimoo, ackack and Thisisnotasmile to this list. They are all horrible people who shouldn't be allowed to use the internet.

Captain Frisk? More like Captain Frisky.

[Elyv]

I would like to add theory, rrenaud, WanderingWinder, guided, Geronimoo, ackack and Thisisnotasmile to this list. They are all horrible people who shouldn't be allowed to use the internet.

So this one time, I played against theory and he beat me said horrible, horrible things to me. Independently verified!

[theory]

The worst is playing Donald X. on the playtest version of Isotropic.  He'll just like, change the card rules in the middle of the game on you.

"Oh, you want to play Militia on me?  Sorry, I just ruled that my Copper is now a Treasure-Reaction that lets me gain a Province for each card I discard.  You know, errata."

[Donald X.]

The worst is playing Donald X. on the playtest version of Isotropic.  He'll just like, change the card rules in the middle of the game on you.

"Oh, you want to play Militia on me?  Sorry, I just ruled that my Copper is now a Treasure-Reaction that lets me gain a Province for each card I discard.  You know, errata."

That's nothing. When you play against Doug Z., he changes the leaderboard algorithm until you're at the bottom.

[GendoIkari]

The recent thread about decline of civility on Istropic reminds me that I would really like to have a list somewhere of the people who are rude and obscene so that I can avoid playing them.  In particular, I've had several terrible experiences with yourface.  I just had a game where ddubois was very rude (and he came up three times in the civility thread as an example of someone being particularly rude and obscene).  Could we come up with a good list of the people to avoid?

Everyone gets frustrated now and then, but people who are frequently rude, obscene, or offensive just aren't fun to play with.

I've played 2 games with yourface, 1 win and 1 loss, and had no bad experience in either one... I don't think we talked at all.

[Kirian]

You should avoid that Kirian guy.  He spent his whole last game cursing at me.

[WanderingWinder]

I'm also against public blacklisting.
But my big issue with this thread is the use of the word 'recent' in the OP to describe the 'decline of civility' thread.

[Davio]

Add Alex79, he's a real pain in the ....

[Anon79]

Add Alex79, he's a real pain in the ....

No relation to me, I hope.

[toaster]

and then he used fowl language at me.

Sounds like he was being a real turkey.

[Davio]

Rhaegar, ban him immediately, no respect at all.

Oh, and I'm for public blacklisting.

[Lekkit]

and then he used fowl language at me.

Sounds like he was being a real turkey.

Yeah, it was awful... He was like "Cluck you, you clucking little cluckster, your mom is nothing but a gobble, you gobblecluckster" I was really offended.

Sounds really hawkward.

[Anon79]

and then he used fowl language at me.

Sounds like he was being a real turkey.

Yeah, it was awful... He was like "Cluck you, you clucking little cluckster, your mom is nothing but a gobble, you gobblecluckster" I was really offended.

Sounds really hawkward.

That's what this list is for isn't it? Just duck the next time you get matched up with him.

[GendoIkari]

and then he used fowl language at me.

Sounds like he was being a real turkey.

Yeah, it was awful... He was like "Cluck you, you clucking little cluckster, your mom is nothing but a gobble, you gobblecluckster" I was really offended.

Sounds really hawkward.

That's what this list is for isn't it? Just duck the next time you get matched up with him.

The puns on this thread are really quite fowl.  Blacklisting is for the birds.

[SwitchedFromStarcraft]

and then he used fowl language at me.

Sounds like he was being a real turkey.

Yeah, it was awful... He was like "Cluck you, you clucking little cluckster, your mom is nothing but a gobble, you gobblecluckster" I was really offended.

Sounds really hawkward.

That's what this list is for isn't it? Just duck the next time you get matched up with him.

The puns on this thread are really quite fowl.  Blacklisting is for the birds.

Some of the puns are indeed kite egretable.  As for blacklisting: the idea stands in stork contrast to my view of this community as relatively eagle-i-tarian (and snipe-free).  Better that we grouse in general terns on these boards about our infrequent exposure to the bustards of the Dominion world than blacklist, and thereby pour petrel on the potential flames. After my recent (and only) observation of profanity from another player in a game, I considered adding a swift post to the "decline in civility" thread, so that I wouldn't feel quite so bittern about the experience.

[Voltgloss]

[Octo]

HAHA oh that's brilliant!!

I was kind of despairing at this thread at first (no to name and shame I reckon), but I'm much happier with the way it turned out! Puns-mania.

[^_^_^_^]

Owl

I'm totally avoiding this owl guy if I see him on Isotropic. No ty!

[permanoob]

I played a game with Kaplow! recently that I'd feel justified for blacklisting the guy in regards to. But I've also played games where my opponent was somehow turned off or offended by something I've said. I feel a rep system should be put in place, where after a game you can choose to:
Give positive Rep
Take away positive Rep
Give negative Rep
Take away negative Rep.
Each player has a positive and negative rep counter.
This system is copied from the steam raffle site and it works quite well.

[barsooma]

I played a game with Kaplow! recently that I'd feel justified for blacklisting the guy in regards to. But I've also played games where my opponent was somehow turned off or offended by something I've said. I feel a rep system should be put in place, where after a game you can choose to:
Give positive Rep
Take away positive Rep
Give negative Rep
Take away negative Rep.
Each player has a positive and negative rep counter.
This system is copied from the steam raffle site and it works quite well.

+1

I've thought about building this as a chrome extension quite a bit.
Not that motivated though because I'm probably more of an ass than my average opponent.

[jonts26]

+1

You know there's an actual +1 button ...

[Kirian]

+1

You know there's an actual +1 button ...

+1

[^_^_^_^]

+1

You know there's an actual +1 button ...

+1

This.

[Robz888]

Ah! I finally encountered a mean person on Isotropic! A user named Agarash said "Fuck you" to me because I bought the first 4 provinces in 12 turns (my deck had 1 Bridge, 1 Festival, 1 Remake, 4 Coppers, 6 Silvers, and 2 Gold--so it was pretty miraculous luck). He resigned after that.

I would like to Remake his cruel words into nothing.

[DrHades]

I would like to Remake his Curse words into nothing.

FTFY

[Kuildeous]

I would like to Remake his Curse words into nothing.

FTFY

Thanks to that Bridge, you can Remake them into Herbalists. Together, I'm sure they can brew up something to calm him down.

[metzgerism]

"shroomchild" was really rude yesterday to me, and even moreso to someone else who replied in the thread after I did.

Avoid this "shroomchild" character.

[Ozle]

Blacklisting is a bad idea, unless people are going to start pouring over logs. They will always be used eventually to moan at other people using only one side of the story

And lets not forget that the stakes are really really high during each and every game of dominion......oh wait

[Piemaster]

I played a game with Kaplow! recently that I'd feel justified for blacklisting the guy in regards to. But I've also played games where my opponent was somehow turned off or offended by something I've said. I feel a rep system should be put in place, where after a game you can choose to:
Give positive Rep
Take away positive Rep
Give negative Rep
Take away negative Rep.
Each player has a positive and negative rep counter.
This system is copied from the steam raffle site and it works quite well.

The only problem with a system like that is it tends to favour the really bad sports who are all sunshine and rainbows when they are winning, but insulting whiney crybabies when they are losing.  These kind of people often end up with a rating higher than the quiet (or non-English speaking) types who just say "hi" at the beginning and "gg" at the end regardless of whether they win or lose.

[ecq]

A rep system on Isotropic would be very hard to get right.

A lot of people take losses personally and there's a lot of room for miscommunication in text-based chat with strangers.  I've had people take "gg" the wrong way, for instance.  Would people down-vote to get back at you for feeding them 10 curses or opting for a winning Scrying Pool engine?  Almost certainly.  Further, it's annoying enough trying to auto-match without having one more reason to reject games.  Also, those who get very negative reputations can very easily create a new account with a clean slate while serious players would not do this, so you punish the wrong people.

My preference: give me an auto-match blacklist.  Let me blacklist someone for either 5 minutes or (semi-)permanently, and let me manage the list, in case I misclick or have a change of heart.  Potentially investigate, suspend, or otherwise punish people who have a high number of permanent blacklists.  5 minutes would cover the case where auto-match keeps suggesting a game with someone I don't want to play with (maybe someone who is cherry-picking games).

[tko]

My preference: give me an auto-match blacklist.  Let me blacklist someone for either 5 minutes or (semi-)permanently, and let me manage the list, in case I misclick or have a change of heart.

I agree with everything ecq posted.  I like the blacklist idea, and espcially would use that 5 minutes option... currently, I have to do that 5 minutes one manually.

[tlloyd]

So I had a string of losses yesterday, and tried to still be friendly even though I felt that I was having abnormally bad luck (playing against 5/2 in a witch game is annoying once, but miserable in multiples). Anyway, I then played Jenkis (or something like that) on a Familiar board and when he pulled $2P he just walked away and made me wait two minutes to resign him. I don't think I've ever been so furious about a game.   

[ecq]

So I had a string of losses yesterday, and tried to still be friendly even though I felt that I was having abnormally bad luck (playing against 5/2 in a witch game is annoying once, but miserable in multiples). Anyway, I then played Jenkis (or something like that) on a Familiar board and when he pulled $2P he just walked away and made me wait two minutes to resign him. I don't think I've ever been so furious about a game.   

I get this way too often and have posted about it before.  I'm sure a few people fail to resign on purpose, but I suspect the majority don't know the resign button is there.  I've even had games where someone resigns with a nice message and leaves before I can type "gg, please hit the resign button," making me to sit around waiting for the timeout.  I've never minded someone resigning, but that timeout is annoying.

[Ozle]

I only found the resign button on accident today as well!

[petrie911]

Honestly, the resign button needs to be available more than just at the start of your turn.  There are times when you don't want to resign until you've seen how badly this hand played out.

[Captain_Frisk]

Honestly, the resign button needs to be available more than just at the start of your turn.  There are times when you don't want to resign until you've seen how badly this hand played out.

+1.  When someone launches off on 2 minute scrying pool / pawn / hamlet / torturer chain, you know that not only are you going to have to sit there for 2 minutes, but you're going to have to pay attention to handle the torturer reaction...

In those situations I usually just beg: "please dude end it and I'll resign I promise"

[Kirian]

Honestly, the resign button needs to be available more than just at the start of your turn.  There are times when you don't want to resign until you've seen how badly this hand played out.

+1.  When someone launches off on 2 minute scrying pool / pawn / hamlet / torturer chain, you know that not only are you going to have to sit there for 2 minutes, but you're going to have to pay attention to handle the torturer reaction...

In those situations I usually just beg: "please dude end it and I'll resign I promise"

I'm not positive, but I believe that killing that tab/window in your browser will give the "client disconnected/unresponsive" message.  Not positive though.

[jsh357]

Hitting 'exit' works, I believe.  When you close the tab, the game waits for you to come back.

[blueblimp]

Hitting 'exit' works, I believe.  When you close the tab, the game waits for you to come back.

Yes, I use exit for this purpose all the time, and it definitely works since I sometimes get immediately re-matched with the same opponent. It's too bad it prevents discussing the game, though.

[Deadlock39]

Yes, exit is always safe.  I tested this out logging in on two different browsers.  Clicking on exit will always immediately issue a resignation with the "client disconnected/unresponsive" message.  This is true in the middle of your own turn or when it is your opponents turn. (If it is your opponents turn the message will appear as soon as they finish.)

[Insomniac]

I agree with the need for a resign button needing more availability. The fact is you need to have cards in your hand to resign, so if you discarded your garbage hand at the beginning of a torturer chain only to realize you need to resign, you can't

[GendoIkari]

Yes, exit is always safe.  I tested this out logging in on two different browsers.  Clicking on exit will always immediately issue a resignation with the "client disconnected/unresponsive" message.  This is true in the middle of your own turn or when it is your opponents turn. (If it is your opponents turn the message will appear as soon as they finish.)

Good to know! I've always wondered why sometimes I get "client disconnected" and sometimes a regular resign (not counting times that I've waited 3 minutes, then I know). The one problem, still, is that this doesn't handle situations when your opponent needs to take action on your turn. I had a game once where I had the guy in the KC-Masq-Ghost Ship pin; and we talked about how the game doesn't let you resign if you have a 0-card hand. So I told him just to wait 3 minutes and not do anything. This was after a had played a Masquerade. So he waited, and after 3 minutes I got the notice to make him resign, which I did. But then something crazy happened... as soon as I did that, it says he passed me a card. The game automatically passed a card for him. As soon as I finished my turn, it said I won.

[Deadlock39]

He could have used exit in that case and it would have done the same thing (without the 3 minute wait).  If there is interaction required from your opponent after they have exited, Isotropic automatically handles it.

[The 9th Doctor]

I suppose I should have expected it given his name.

21:18 The 9th Doctor: good luck!
21:22 jackass: fuck you
21:23 The 9th Doctor: ??

To be fair, I had pursued a strategy that beat his strategy, so...

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201202/24/game-20120224-212548-0ffe2023.html

[Axxle]

I suppose I should have expected it given his name.

21:18 The 9th Doctor: good luck!
21:22 jackass: fuck you
21:23 The 9th Doctor: ??

To be fair, I had pursued a strategy that beat his strategy, so...

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201202/24/game-20120224-212548-0ffe2023.html

Possibly a Tennant fan.

[cdnza]

I just played this dude, who seemed to be trying to "punish" me for casting goons every turn by slowrolling

12:33 Taidon: !details
12:33 Taidon: >> cdnza => 19 points [deck size is 29(13a)] - {"Treasure":11,"Victory":5,"Uniques":6,"Actions":13}
12:33 Taidon: >>    {"Copper":8,"Estate":5,"Farming Village":5,"Silver":3,"Goons":7,"Scheme":1}
12:33 Taidon: >> Taidon => 8 points [deck size is 24(14a)] - {"Treasure":7,"Victory":3,"Uniques":8,"Actions":14}
12:33 Taidon: >>    {"Copper":1,"Estate":3,"Mine":1,"Scheme":4,"Silver":6,"Farming Village":5,"Goons":3,"Conspirator":1}
12:34 Taidon: have fun waiting.
12:37 Taidon: Now have fun waiting more.
12:37 Taidon: Freaking attack card players. :\
12:37 cdnza: hm?
12:39 Taidon: You're a jerk.
12:40 Taidon has returned to the lobby.

edit: in case it wasn't apparent, he was idling and then returning so that he wouldn't time out automatically lol

[WanderingWinder]

In the words of rrenaud: Jerks win.

[jotheonah]

this attitude always baffles me.  It's like sitting down to play chess with someone, making your first capture and having them stand up and say indignantly. "You CAPTURED my PAWN? That is SO unsportsmanlike. What a jerk!"

[Ozle]

this attitude always baffles me.  It's like sitting down to play chess with someone, making your first capture and having them stand up and say indignantly. "You CAPTURED my PAWN? That is SO unsportsmanlike. What a jerk!"

You sunk my battleship!!

[Beyond Awesome]

this attitude always baffles me.  It's like sitting down to play chess with someone, making your first capture and having them stand up and say indignantly. "You CAPTURED my PAWN? That is SO unsportsmanlike. What a jerk!"

Exactly, and who is really being unsportsmanlike.

[Robz888]

People who were mentioned multiple times in the other thread or quoted saying obscene things (though I have not personally had experiences playing with them):
I love you
indomitable
Rambo888
Copper-nicus
lazmaster

I took a quick look at the above post and momentarily panicked. I'm nice, I swear! I always apologize to people profusely as I Torturer chain them!

But now I see that's not me. Ah, relief.

For some reason, a player named Murtaugh ALWAYS declines me in auto-match. It's happened during different play sessions on several different days. Does he decline other people, or is it just me? I can't help worrying he mistakes me for the supposedly evil Rambo888.

[tlloyd]

People who were mentioned multiple times in the other thread or quoted saying obscene things (though I have not personally had experiences playing with them):
I love you
indomitable
Rambo888
Copper-nicus
lazmaster

I took a quick look at the above post and momentarily panicked. I'm nice, I swear! I always apologize to people profusely as I Torturer chain them!

But now I see that's not me. Ah, relief.

For some reason, a player named Murtaugh ALWAYS declines me in auto-match. It's happened during different play sessions on several different days. Does he decline other people, or is it just me? I can't help worrying he mistakes me for the supposedly evil Rambo888.

There's a player that I always decline to play with, but only because I find his isotropic name offensive. I can't imagine that's what's going on in your case.

[mnavratil]

For some reason, a player named Murtaugh ALWAYS declines me in auto-match. It's happened during different play sessions on several different days. Does he decline other people, or is it just me? I can't help worrying he mistakes me for the supposedly evil Rambo888.

This same player seems to always decline me in auto-match as well. I am also not sure if it is something I've done.

[Cheese]

For some reason, a player named Murtaugh ALWAYS declines me in auto-match. It's happened during different play sessions on several different days. Does he decline other people, or is it just me? I can't help worrying he mistakes me for the supposedly evil Rambo888.

This same player seems to always decline me in auto-match as well. I am also not sure if it is something I've done.

I would be surprised if he plays anyone, ever. He's too old for this shit.

[joel88s]

this attitude always baffles me.  It's like sitting down to play chess with someone, making your first capture and having them stand up and say indignantly. "You CAPTURED my PAWN? That is SO unsportsmanlike. What a jerk!"

Without defending that attitude exactly (especially the copping one part), I would note that there does seem to be a variance of opinion on the question of attack cards. Unlike in chess, where the players are immediately battling over the same space, it is possible, and indeed inevitable on certain boards, to play Dominion non-interactively. And there does seem to be a fair segment of who prefer to play that way.

This is probably in some measure a function of level; I think it's fair to say - and this was certainly the case for me and my friends - that starting out in the game you want to get a feel for using the cards and building a deck, and while you're doing that being buried in curses, coppers and three-card hands is not much fun. (I guess it's a bit like if your first game of football as a kid were tackle and immediate rush like 'real' football; you'd be so overwhelmed you'd never get a chance to learn how to set up and run plays, and would probably wind up hating the game pretty quick.) As one gains more experience and knows what one's doing a bit more, one comes to see attacks as simply a part of the game, and accepts that for example a curse-heavy game will be a different, more slogging kind of game than the more immediately appealing action-rich ones.

That said there are probably also some who never warm to the concept. Perhaps there could be at some point a separate room or forum for those who wish to play 'peacably', whether for training purposes or just out of preference? Of course those games couldn't be rated on the main leaderboard.

Or is the general feeling that trial by fire is best? In that case I suppose those who wish to avoid attack games could sort themselves out by level, or by using the card-constraints function...

[ftl]

DougZ actually tried something that at one point, I think. When he instituted lobbies, there was the Secret Chamber for meeting up with friends, and there were two other lobbies - one labeled as being for "competitive" play and the other as being for "casual" play. Nobody ended up ever using the "casual" one, so it was removed because it was always empty. 

[joel88s]

I was reading this forum today blithely thinking how lucky I'd been not to have encountered such people, when this evening I was informed by JBizz, after I apologized when my Noble Brigand hit his gold on the first shot, that apologizing was such a douchey think to do.

It hardly needs mentioning that he was losing (though not overwhelmingly) and then rage-quit.
But to give the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he meant to say I should have bought a Duchy and can't spell.

[Kuildeous]

this attitude always baffles me.  It's like sitting down to play chess with someone, making your first capture and having them stand up and say indignantly. "You CAPTURED my PAWN? That is SO unsportsmanlike. What a jerk!"

Without defending that attitude exactly (especially the copping one part), I would note that there does seem to be a variance of opinion on the question of attack cards. Unlike in chess, where the players are immediately battling over the same space, it is possible, and indeed inevitable on certain boards, to play Dominion non-interactively. And there does seem to be a fair segment of who prefer to play that way.
[/quote]

That's a very good point. I know that in our early days of playing, we had one guy who hated any form of attack on the board. He's warmed up to it now, but he clearly was not having as much fun when someone dipped into the attack cards (especially Cursers).

I know that Android's Dominion Shuffler allows you to filter so that you can choose to have no attack cards or guaranteed attack cards. Does Isotropic have any filter like that? I can't check right now, and I haven't actually played on Isotropic in a while.

But, allowing players to propose games with no attacks could help these players who simply want to play solitaire games. And though they are not attacks, there probably shouldn't be Possession, Tribute, or Masquerade or Ill-Gotten Gains. I would say that the filter would look for interaction cards, but I think these players enjoy Bishop, Vault, and Council Room.

Of course, this is with the caveat that Isotropic will come down some time in the future.

[chwhite]

DougZ actually tried something that at one point, I think. When he instituted lobbies, there was the Secret Chamber for meeting up with friends, and there were two other lobbies - one labeled as being for "competitive" play and the other as being for "casual" play. Nobody ended up ever using the "casual" one, so it was removed because it was always empty. 

Actually, I think it was the "competitive" lobby that was eliminated- the current main lobby was the "casual" one.

The other lobby to be axed was basically "if you want to be here, set yourself to automatch and don't decline anything".

[joel88s]

I know that Android's Dominion Shuffler allows you to filter so that you can choose to have no attack cards or guaranteed attack cards. Does Isotropic have any filter like that? I can't check right now, and I haven't actually played on Isotropic in a while.

Ah, yes, it does; the 'card constraints' pull-down menu allows you to choose (along with many other parameters) 0-10 attack cards. I use it routinely for solitaire games so I don't have to attack myself. So there is indeed a way of avoiding them in games you propose, though those games won't be rated I assume, and I don't think it works for auto-matches.

On another note, your caveat about Isotropic coming down at some point sounds likes it's referring to something I haven't heard about. Is there a link where this is discussed?

[luliin]

Just played someone called Yaz, who in the middle of an igg game where I'd gotten the 5/2 wrote:
16:24 Yaz: so lucky.
16:24 Yaz: worst draws ever.
16:25 Yaz: gg noob

and then waited for me to resign them instead of resigning themselves.

Hate when people do that.

[DStu]

On another note, your caveat about Isotropic coming down at some point sounds likes it's referring to something I haven't heard about. Is there a link where this is discussed?

http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=175.msg2083#msg2083
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=256.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=1255.0
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=760.0

In no specific order...

In short what I know about it: There will be an official App for various platforms, it is developed by someone who is not Dougz, nor Donald X., nor me (I think this is new information...), it will be released when it's done(tm), it will be officially announced when it's done(tm) and according to Donald it will be great.
And if it is released isotropic will go down.

[WanderingWinder]

And it will have a strong AI, apparently

[DStu]

And it will have a strong AI, apparently

or a not so strong, depending on whom you ask...

[WanderingWinder]

And it will have a strong AI, apparently

or a not so strong, depending on whom you ask...

Anyone who has any information whatsoever. Heck, for all we know, the AI is *perfect*

[DStu]

And it will have a strong AI, apparently

or a not so strong, depending on whom you ask...

Anyone who has any information whatsoever. Heck, for all we know, the AI is *perfect*

There is a post on BGG that says Jay Tummelson should have stated that it's not so great. Can't find the original, and I don't think it's really important.

If it plays BigMoney+X(+Y) descently and maybe knows some standard tricks IW/SR, NV/Bridge, it's good enough. And that should not be so difficult, could just be hardcoded... Prefer playing real people anyway if I want a challange...

edit: maybe btt?

[Ozle]

 The official version will have a good AI.

Thats the only thing even remotely giving information on the AI that I have to go on. And obviously definition of 'good' is subjective!

I'm just going to assume its good and leave it at that

[rrenaud]

Godwin's law for f.ds, a long thread will eventually talk about the official version?

[AJD]

DougZ actually tried something that at one point, I think. When he instituted lobbies, there was the Secret Chamber for meeting up with friends, and there were two other lobbies - one labeled as being for "competitive" play and the other as being for "casual" play. Nobody ended up ever using the "casual" one, so it was removed because it was always empty. 

Actually, I think it was the "competitive" lobby that was eliminated- the current main lobby was the "casual" one.

Actually, they were both eliminated; when they existed they existed alongside the main lobby.

[Kirian]

And it will have a strong AI, apparently

or a not so strong, depending on whom you ask...

Anyone who has any information whatsoever. Heck, for all we know, the AI is *perfect*

I've heard the new Dominion AI will take advantage of distributed computing methods, using spare cycles from thousands of computers to determine its next move against you, making it all but perfect.  Unfortunately, each turn will take three years.

[chwhite]

DougZ actually tried something that at one point, I think. When he instituted lobbies, there was the Secret Chamber for meeting up with friends, and there were two other lobbies - one labeled as being for "competitive" play and the other as being for "casual" play. Nobody ended up ever using the "casual" one, so it was removed because it was always empty. 

Actually, I think it was the "competitive" lobby that was eliminated- the current main lobby was the "casual" one.

Actually, they were both eliminated; when they existed they existed alongside the main lobby.

I am quite certain that there were four lobbies: obviously, the description of Great Hall (the current main lobby, formerly the "casual" one) was changed once Council Room ("serious") and Courtyard ("automatch") were axed, but it was the "casual" one that got all the traffic.

Here's the announcement when they came out: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=500.msg6849#msg6849

[verikt]

Without defending that attitude exactly (especially the copping one part), I would note that there does seem to be a variance of opinion on the question of attack cards.

There are attack cards and there are attack cards. I'd say there's a place for all of them at some times, I just had fun playing highway sab but it really depends on the situation. If there's a decent board of other cards and strategies and someone starts buying sab I may be pissed. You buy one, I buy one in defense, and you turned the game into a crapshoot of who hits what card first. It made the game less friendly and less enjoyable. Same with buying 3 ironworks with something like great hall on the board. You ironworks yours, I can't afford to let you have them all, and you just changed the game to piles and estates. I'm not saying there aren't times when piles and estates aren't the way to go, like with seahag or gardens in the cards but taking a nice board and changing it to a stupid race for the low cards says something about the style of player. As a rule of thumb, think if you would do it if you were playing in real life with a friend.

[DStu]

Without defending that attitude exactly (especially the copping one part), I would note that there does seem to be a variance of opinion on the question of attack cards.

There are attack cards and there are attack cards. I'd say there's a place for all of them at some times, I just had fun playing highway sab but it really depends on the situation. If there's a decent board of other cards and strategies and someone starts buying sab I may be pissed. You buy one, I buy one in defense, and you turned the game into a crapshoot of who hits what card first. It made the game less friendly and less enjoyable.

It was you who decides to mirror the Sab. Often you can just ignore it. Especially if there are decent other cards.

Same with buying 3 ironworks with something like great hall on the board. You ironworks yours, I can't afford to let you have them all, and you just changed the game to piles and estates. I'm not saying there aren't times when piles and estates aren't the way to go, like with seahag or gardens in the cards but taking a nice board and changing it to a stupid race for the low cards says something about the style of player. As a rule of thumb, think if you would do it if you were playing in real life with a friend.

OK, no attacks, no rushes. Am I at least allowed to build an engine, or is this also turning the game into a luckfeast of who gets it going first?

[verikt]

OK, no attacks, no rushes.

That wasn't what I said. Often you  can ignore it. Sometimes it's the right play. That said, people here are playing for fun. And there are cases where you have the option of playing a game which is more enjoyable for both players or choosing a strategy which is not much more likely to win, but will definitely make the game less fun/interesting. And choosing it says something about your personality.

[ftl]

Same with buying 3 ironworks with something like great hall on the board. You ironworks yours, I can't afford to let you have them all, and you just changed the game to piles and estates.

Why can't you afford to let someone have them all? Look, it takes you three provinces to have the same number of points as all eight great halls and all eight estates. It's a strategic decision - you can either join the other person or go for a different strategy.

If IW/great hall really is the right strategy, and you both think so, then yeah, you should both go for it. But if you think it's a bad board for it, then don't mirror them! Just beat them normally, with provinces!

BTW, I think just plain big money - no other actions even - beat an IW/great hall/estate rush, on average. You should be able to get a few provinces and a duchy or two by the time those piles are empty, because all those score so low, only a few provinces is enough. If you throw in a single good card - a smithy, say - it turns into a blowout. IW/GH rush is pretty weak. It's a few extra points, but not many, and you spend like ten turns to get these one-point cards. And if they're not emptying those piles all the way, even better, because you have a huge lead in getting to like six provinces.

I'm not saying there aren't times when piles and estates aren't the way to go, like with seahag or gardens in the cards but taking a nice board and changing it to a stupid race for the low cards says something about the style of player.

What does it say about them? I don't actually know what you're implying there.

The times where piles and estates are the way to go is when that is faster and scores more points than going for a long game with provinces...

As a rule of thumb, think if you would do it if you were playing in real life with a friend.

Yes, we'd do all these things IRL with a friend. Or, I would.

It's part of the game, and the variety of Dominion is what makes the game so great! Some games are curse-heavy no-trashing sea hag slogs, some are mega-turn Grand Market-KC games, some are rushes, some are engine games, and some end up simple big money plus one card or two. And some games are unclear - multiple paths seem viable, and you're never really sure whether your path is better until you play it out and see.

[verikt]

Not necessarily. Try a board with ironworks gh conspirator and some other cards. We both opened 4-3 ironworks silver. Next turn you ironworks ironworks. That leaves me the choice of also ironworking iw, ironworking consp or gh. obviously consp without gh or village or whatever to move it along is not great. So my options are to let you have a 2-1 advantage in gaining 4 cards or doing the same thing. Doing the same things means changing a province strategy game to a fairly boring who can run out the piles first. In real life if a friend did that to me I'd tell him come the fuck on, we're trying to have fun here.

[DStu]

Not necessarily. Try a board with ironworks gh conspirator and some other cards. We both opened 4-3 ironworks silver. Next turn you ironworks ironworks. That leaves me the choice of also ironworking iw, ironworking consp or gh. obviously consp without gh or village or whatever to move it along is not great. So my options are to let you have a 2-1 advantage in gaining 4 cards or doing the same thing. Doing the same things means changing a province strategy game to a fairly boring who can run out the piles first. In real life if a friend did that to me I'd tell him come the fuck on, we're trying to have fun here.

Don't know if we want to turn it into a strategic discussion here, but:
I'm not a fan of conspirator without buys, even with IW. But say your plan was Ironworking into Conspirator, you see you opponent doubleing Ironworks. You seems to think that a second Ironworks is not a good idea for GH/IW/Consp, maybe, and that the second IW clearly indicates the rush. I don't know, but let's assume this.
So you see that he goes for the rush. You are not so far away from BigMoney yet, just one Ironworks. Just see that the game will be shorter, and accelerate you game. You need to gain 16 points, if you can gain 2 GH/Estates it's only additional 12. 2 Provinces or 4 Duchies or 1Province/2Duchies.  Just getting on your way and buying 1 Province will have to let him be carefull, because he does not want to empty the piles for your win.

[DStu]

OK, no attacks, no rushes.

That wasn't what I said. Often you  can ignore it. Sometimes it's the right play. That said, people here are playing for fun. And there are cases where you have the option of playing a game which is more enjoyable for both players or choosing a strategy which is not much more likely to win, but will definitely make the game less fun/interesting. And choosing it says something about your personality.

If the strategy is less likely to win, just don't mirror it, and you wont get a degenerate game. If it isn't, it is the right play.

[ftl]

Not necessarily. Try a board with ironworks gh conspirator and some other cards. We both opened 4-3 ironworks silver. Next turn you ironworks ironworks. That leaves me the choice of also ironworking iw, ironworking consp or gh. obviously consp without gh or village or whatever to move it along is not great. So my options are to let you have a 2-1 advantage in gaining 4 cards or doing the same thing. Doing the same things means changing a province strategy game to a fairly boring who can run out the piles first. In real life if a friend did that to me I'd tell him come the fuck on, we're trying to have fun here.

See, now I don't even see what's boring about it.  With conspirator around, that actually seems pretty cool - buy and ironworks conspirators and great halls, activate the conspirators with IW/GH.

No idea whether it's optimal or not, but the conspirators at least seem to make it far more plausible than just an an IW/GH/Estate rush.

So if both people play it, it comes down to a showdown of rush strategies - when do you stop buying stuff to ramp up your deck (more iw and cons) and when do you switch to green? You don't want to let the other person end the game on IW/GH/Cons with like one extra estate, but you might not want to dip into estates too early because if you let them sit for a bit longer and get more cantrips/card draw/villages you might get a nice conspirator chain going and snag a province or two. 

Certainly interesting decisions to be made.

I have no idea why you're calling this a  boring game - I certainly wouldn't find this any more boring than the many formulaic Single Card + Money province games that get played.

I'd think the stereotypical 'boring' game is where there's and there's one powerful +cards card - maybe Envoy, or Smithy. Or another good BM enabler like Masquerade, or Jack of All Trade. No attacks that would make it worthwhile to actually chain them for an engine, no +buy to make a huge engine worthwhile either... Those make for the most boring games. I would have never in a million years thought to describe an Ironworks/Great Hall/Conspirator rush as boring...

But, again, that's the beauty of Dominion. Some games come down to snagging one extra Estate, whereas some games come down to a 100-point mega-turn, with everything in between also possible.

[RisingJaguar]

And there are cases where you have the option of playing a game which is more enjoyable for both players or choosing a strategy which is not much more likely to win, but will definitely make the game less fun/interesting. And choosing it says something about your personality.

I think its cool that you enjoy to play the 'fun' style all the time (not sure what that type of game is though...) but I doubt you can judge someone's personality by the game they choose to play.  I wouldn't think a BM player is a dull person or someone who buys attacks only as a bully. 

[Ozle]

Dont you just hate it though when you are trying to play a nice game of squash when you want it to be enjoyable for both players, and your opponent keeps hitting the ball where you cant reach it, rather than straight back to you!

[olneyce]

Dont you just hate it though when you are trying to play a nice game of squash when you want it to be enjoyable for both players, and your opponent keeps hitting the ball where you cant reach it, rather than straight back to you!

Well, the point isn't actually totally crazy.  The analogy would be more like:

When you're warming up and you want to just get moving, your friend keeps trying to hit screamers that would score points.  I think you would be rightly annoyed because you aren't really focused on playing the game at that point.

Isotropic is clearly not a good place to go about that sort of business.  But in principle I can understand someone just wanting the fun and sociable part of the game's mechanics without it being cutthroat. 

I certainly do not agree it 'says something about the character' of the person who builds a Torturer engine or rushes Silk Roads or whatever.

[verikt]

Around here squash is a food. Or something you do to soda cans.
But hello, I don't know about you but I'm here for fun. I don't get paid for this. I'd rather lose an enjoyable game than win a boring one.

[Ozle]

(Would like to point out that the squash analogy was entirely tongue in cheek and should not be used in actual comparisons)

[ftl]

Around here squash is a food. Or something you do to soda cans.
But hello, I don't know about you but I'm here for fun. I don't get paid for this. I'd rather lose an enjoyable game than win a boring one.

So what, in your mind, makes a game enjoyable? Because I'm still puzzled as to why you would describe the IW/Great Hall/Conspirator game as boring.

In my mind, the main thing that makes a game enjoyable are interesting decisions to be made. The boring games are the formulaic ones - where the optimal strategy is obvious, and both players basically go through the motions all game, and luck decides it. This is most common with Single Card + Money strategies, or certain combos that are really bad at absorbing extra cards.

But I saw nothing remotely boring about your IW/Gh/Cons example. I think there is a tradeoff to be made there - I don't think you want all 10 or even 5 ironworks; there's choices to be made about when to gain which of the three components, and when to go green. It's not formulaic at all.

[verikt]

Because I'm still puzzled as to why you would describe the IW/Great Hall/Conspirator game as boring.

Those are usually fun cards that make for a fun game. Buying 2 iw's changes that by making it so much more likely that the piles will run out. It forces you to go for cheap green early.

[Thisisnotasmile]

Because I'm still puzzled as to why you would describe the IW/Great Hall/Conspirator game as boring.

Those are usually fun cards that make for a fun game. Buying 2 iw's changes that by making it so much more likely that the piles will run out. It forces you to go for cheap green early.

And what makes a three pile game more boring than the standard competition to see who can get more than 4 Provinces first?

[Deadlock39]

Okay... I'm a bit afraid to step into this one because it's another wonderful "opinion" thread, but I just don't understand this example at all.  Gaining a second Ironworks in this situation definitely does not magically change the game to a 3 pile rush game.  I can't imagine a pile rush on Ironworks, Great Hall, and Estate is even remotely competitive (simulator gurus might help here).  I would expect straight up boring Big Money going for Provinces to win pretty easily.  This isn't Ironworks Gardens here... It is 1 point Great Halls.

Regarding one of the other examples... Saboteur is an absolutely terrible card on most boards.  If your opponent buys one, the right reaction is almost always going to be to just ignore it and keep playing.  "Buying one in defense" is throwing away the advantage your opponent just gave you when he bought a crappy card.

To the main point of the thread.  Different people have different opinions of what the definition of "enjoyable game" is.  For me an enjoyable game is a competitive one. Passing on the strongest strategy because it is an attack or disliked for some other reason just seems ridiculous.  Sometimes it can be less fun to play a long Curse heavy game, but if it is on the board and it is the best strategy it would be silly not to go that direction.  You can restrict cards or decline games if you really don't want to play a card, but taking issue with your opponent buying a card that is on the board is crazy.

[Eevee]

to me its about competition, outsmarting your opponent and winning by figuring out the game / the board better. the most fun i could have playing* would probably be realizing something like ironworks-great hall-conspirator is better than your standard boring smithy-bm or whatever and beating my opponent that way. tells something about my personality?

*no really it would be beating a top player with a scout-based strategy, one of these days.

[Kirian]

Also of note:  If you do not mirror the IW/GH strategy, then your opponent will have a harder time completing it fast enough to beat your Provinces.

[elahrairah13]

after several days of nice experiences on isotropic, tonight I'm having worse luck...

upon seeing me get the first prize, user wakka wakka said "oh faggot", then stopped playing... I am waiting to resign him.

annoying.

... and for whatever reason, 7 minutes has gone by with no action from him and no prompt to resign him...

[ciaccona]

What the heck is up with winners saying gg first so often on isotropic? I've yet to play an online game where that's not considered boorish.

[EntirelySonja]

I know this thread has kind of wandered away from its original intent, but it seemed like the place to write about this:

I played against someone on March 6 with the username "pinkfreud".  It was an appalling experience -- he was amazingly offensive, inquiring into my sexual habits and commenting on his own.  I simply ignored it; in retrospect, I should have resigned the game as soon as he called me "babygirl" and asked about my breasts.

Of course, he can just change his username, so I have no idea what benefit posting about it here might have.

I've been playing on the isotropic server for months, and this is the only time I've encountered anything like it.

For those of you with morbid curiosity, I have attached the unedited chat log -- this is the entirety of the "conversation" we had.

[ftl]

Yeah, that's the sort of thing that people should be banned for...

[A_S00]

What the heck is up with winners saying gg first so often on isotropic? I've yet to play an online game where that's not considered boorish.

Wait, really?  I mean, I consider it rude to say gg if you're winning but the game isn't over yet (because it's presumptuous...you're saying, "I'm so far ahead you're dead, you should just admit that it's over now," which is mean even if it's true).  And that's why it's rude for the winner to say gg first in, say, SC2, because you don't have an opportunity to say anything to each other after the game is well and truly over.  But once the game is actually over (like, the "Game Over" image has come up), the game is...you know...over.  Now it's just time to acknowledge that it was a good game (or really, that you respect your opponent enough to acknowledge them with the token gesture of saying "gg," since it doesn't really mean anything about the game itself).

If there's actually a rule about the order you're supposed to say gg in, I may have been inadvertently offending people .

[blueblimp]

Oh, I just assumed it to refer to gg'ing as the winner before the game is over. I don't see anything wrong with gg'ing first if the game has ended.

[Taco Lobster]

The Dominion Etiquette thread has an epic discussion of gg if you want to explore that topic in extreme depth.  The short story is that there doesn't seem to be a general consensus of any type regarding the appropriateness of saying gg.

[mnavratil]

Played someone earlier today by the handle of "Schtroumpf". His after game conduct was pretty poor.

As you can see by the timestamps, the initial gg was quite a bit before the end of the game.

7:55 Schtroumpf: well gg.
7:57 Schtroumpf: wow and we tied?
7:57 Schtroumpf: way to blow that
7:57 Schtroumpf: novice
7:57 Schtroumpf has returned to the lobby.

On the upside, at least he didn't call me "babygirl"

[^_^_^_^]

15:45 ^_^_^_^: hi gl hf :)15:57 ^_^_^_^: gg15:57 Krispy: chicken shit15:57 Krispy has returned to the lobby.

This is the first time I've actually been truly disappointed enough by my opponent to post this here. And yet it is so ironic lol...
The Game. I win with 5 vs his -1 points on a 3 pile. If he had gone for VP instead of Highways he might've had a better chance...

[catsclaw]

Add Finian to the list of dicks.

13:57 Fin Fang Foom: This is a terrible set
13:58 Finian: nice way to complain. you drew 2-5 split on a margrave
13:58 Finian: so shut the fuck up

... and ...

14:04 Fin Fang Foom: You got lucky
14:04 Finian: lol you suck so badly
14:04 Finian: that was not a viable strategy
14:04 Finian: i had 4 remodels i could trash platinum anytime
14:04 Fin Fang Foom: It's a shitty set
14:04 Finian: stupid fuck

[ciaccona]

Add Finian to the list of dicks.

13:57 Fin Fang Foom: This is a terrible set
13:58 Finian: nice way to complain. you drew 2-5 split on a margrave
13:58 Finian: so shut the fuck up

... and ...

14:04 Fin Fang Foom: You got lucky
14:04 Finian: lol you suck so badly
14:04 Finian: that was not a viable strategy
14:04 Finian: i had 4 remodels i could trash platinum anytime
14:04 Fin Fang Foom: It's a shitty set
14:04 Finian: stupid fuck

I'd add both.

[Ozle]

And heres why these threads never truely work....

13:10: Ozle: Hello
13:10: Other Player: Yeah whatever

13:16: Other Player: God I hate you so much, why are you such a fucker?
13:16: Other player: You really are an Asshat!
Other player has resigned to the lobby

Of course, I didnt actually post the intervening 6 minutes where I put 100 posts insulting his mother.


(Note: This isnt an actual log or reference to any event! Just illustrating that split, editable, chat logs are no reason to form an opinion of anybody)

[barsooma]

And heres why these threads never truely work....

13:10: Ozle: Hello
13:10: Other Player: Yeah whatever

13:16: Other Player: God I hate you so much, why are you such a fucker?
13:16: Other player: You really are an Asshat!
Other player has resigned to the lobby

Of course, I didnt actually post the intervening 6 minutes where I put 100 posts insulting his mother.


(Note: This isnt an actual log or reference to any event! Just illustrating that split, editable, chat logs are no reason to form an opinion of anybody)

No, the real reason is noone is going to remember these names, certainly not in time to decline games with them. Hell, I can't even remember the ones who've been assholes to me personally (and they've been mentioned in this thread several times by others as well).
What we need is a public reputation and voting system integrated either into isotropic or a browser extension.

[Ozle]

No need for any of that really.

Out of the hundreds of thousands of games played on Isotropic (and thats just by WW) we have a thread of 124 posts in total, only 50% of which are reporting bad behaviour and I probably only rate a handful of them of really bad behaviour.

If someone is properly offensive to you, and I mean properly offensive and not just said a few bad words because they are a bad loser, then I would probably report it to the admins, but then I wouldnt imagine they would want to shift through all the reports they would get, so I probably wouldnt bother.

[PerdHapley]

No need for any of that really.

Out of the hundreds of thousands of games played on Isotropic (and thats just by WW) we have a thread of 124 posts in total, only 50% of which are reporting bad behaviour and I probably only rate a handful of them of really bad behaviour.

If someone is properly offensive to you, and I mean properly offensive and not just said a few bad words because they are a bad loser, then I would probably report it to the admins, but then I wouldnt imagine they would want to shift through all the reports they would get, so I probably wouldnt bother.

Agreed completely.

I think it's important to remember sometimes just how good we all have it. I'm sure that a lot of people here don't really play other games online, and don't have anything to really compare Isotropic to. Prior to getting into Dominion I played online poker regularly through a few different sites for several years. The difference in terms of average etiquette between that world and this one is just insane. I'm sure that isn't surprising to anyone, since obviously having money on the line is bound to bring out the worst in some people, but even at the lowest stakes it was pretty shocking how often players would berate each other. Even the worst examples in this thread don't come close to some of the horrible tirades people would go on for no good reason in online poker implementations. That after close to 5000 games of Dominion on Iso I can count on one hand the number of players who have been genuinely jerky to me is pretty incredible, and I'd be surprised to find another community this large that is so universally friendly.

[Kirian]

I'm sure that a lot of people here don't really play other games online, and don't have anything to really compare Isotropic to. Prior to getting into Dominion I played online poker regularly through a few different sites for several years. The difference in terms of average etiquette between that world and this one is just insane. I'm sure that isn't surprising to anyone, since obviously having money on the line is bound to bring out the worst in some people...

If anyone wants to get a feel for terrible etiquette, get a free-to-play pass for WOW, come to Proudmoore server, and sit in city Trade chat for 30 minutes some evening.  ANd with no money on the line.

[Ozle]

And you should hear me if I lose in the Yahoo Games Snakes and Ladders room....

[metzgerism]

Yombonski:

21:07 metzgerism: glhf

[won the game on a final turn]

21:14 Yombonski: gay
21:14 metzgerism: g
21:14 Yombonski: faggot

And then he left.

[GigaKnight]

I'm both relatively new and way late to this thread, but a public blacklist is tricky for a number of reasons (relativity, witch hunts, etc...).  A better Isotropic feature is a personal blacklist, v1 of which could be implemented simply as remembering the players you've muted.  Storing this server-side is a non-trivial amount of backend work and has performance implications, though; the poor man's version of this is storing the mute list in your client-side cookies (which some cap on the number of entries in your list).  Given how infrequently this is actually a problem, being able to mute, say, 100 people is probably more than you'll need anytime soon.

[WrathOfGlod]

With regards to the offensive GG, I will only use it if the game is mathematically over. IE with no +buys in his deck and 1 province left and me up by more than 6, if I have >8 coin I will say gg. Also if I have the majority of victory points in the game I feel justified in saying GG.

[kamikazepig]

I really dislike when somebody who is about to beat me says gg before the game officially ends, so I never do it. It doesn't matter to me who says gg first, as long as the game has officially been completed.

[Axxle]

18:32 blueblimp: hi gl hf
18:34 ARTjoMS: lucky
18:35 blueblimp: oh getting the remake on 2x estate?
18:35 blueblimp: yeah that is nice, I hate it when it hits only copper
18:35 ARTjoMS: and buying silver in same turn
18:35 ARTjoMS: chances of that lucky very small
18:36 ARTjoMS: no gg
18:36 blueblimp: lol
18:36 ARTjoMS: pure luck
18:36 ARTjoMS has returned to the lobby.

Hardly someone to avoid.  He was just a little bitter.

[Big Tuna]

I really dislike when somebody who is about to beat me says gg before the game officially ends, so I never do it. It doesn't matter to me who says gg first, as long as the game has officially been completed.

I GG fairly often before the game is over. Though, it had no relation to whether I'm winning or losing. However, if the game is tight I tend to wait till it's over because I don't want push them over the edge to ending the game if I think they are not sure of the status of the game (probably has no effect).

On the otherhand. I played this game last night http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120327-195911-9b7673b0.html and I GG'd on turn 6 because the game ended at that point even though there was still a little business to take care of.

[Fabian]

"On the otherhand. I played this game last night http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120327-195911-9b7673b0.html and I GG'd on turn 6 because the game ended at that point even though there was still a little business to take care of."

Tuna,

That's extremely douchy and you should stop doing it right now.

[theory]

It's just so weird, the idea of telling someone GG in the middle of a game.  If I were playing a game of chess in person, I wouldn't just randomly say midway in the game "Thanks for the game, bro."

Although the analogy isn't perfect, because it's much easier to come back in chess from a big disadvantage than in Dominion (i.e., it's easier for the player ahead to blunder in chess).

[ArjanB]

I find it cocky to say it in the middle of a game.

[mnavratil]

If the game is truly over at turn 6; resign FIRST and then say a polite gg.

[chogg]

If the game is truly over at turn 6; resign FIRST and then say a polite gg.

He wasn't saying gg because of losing, but because of winning.  And it's true that he did pretty much have it locked up at that point.

[mnavratil]

Guess that teaches me for not reading the log before posting.

Even if you do have the game pretty much won (which I am not denying), saying "gg" at that point just comes off so arrogant.

[Fabian]

Not saying gg until the game is over > saying gg on the final turn when someone's about to win (this is slightly worse because I do this sometimes and the game doesn't end, which is kinda awkward) >> saying gg in the middle of the game and resigning immediately >>>>>>>>>>>>>>.....>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying gg in the middle of the game when losing and not resigning >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying gg in the middle of the game when winning (and not resigning).

The last two are huge dick moves, what Tuna did especially so.

[Kirian]

If I gg/resign in the middle of a game, I often will try to indicate why, if it isn't obvious.  Saying gg when ahead, though?  Even on the last turn, that's pretty mean.

I've found it common, however, when someone is about to win, for the losing player to say gg during what will obviously be their last turn.

[RisingJaguar]

Yeah, gging on the last turn isn't such a big deal, or gging and subsequently resigning is fine. 

Although, similar to Fabian, I know I've said gg to someone before (because i thought they'd end on three-piles), didn't and then I came back to win... I now never say gg on expected three piles Also win on three piles if you can, even if it's by one point.

gg-ing in general seems more polite when the loser says it first. 

[kirkbauer]

Even if you do have the game pretty much won (which I am not denying), saying "gg" at that point just comes off so arrogant.

I agree 100%.  In my opinion, when you just bought the 5th Province it is annoying/arrogant, but saying it on turn 6 is just plain wrong.  If I was playing with you I probably would have resigned shortly after that with a "f you"... and avoided playing with you again.

[AdamH]

Hi. I'd like to add my contribution to this thread.

I've played maybe a couple hundred games or so on Isotropic, and last night I had the first instance of anyone being anything less than completely friendly and polite. It wasn't really that bad either. Here's the log.

http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201203/28/game-20120328-133803-b3775a07.html

The chat log looks like this (I looked down to say gg and saw this)

16:35 Walruswhiskers: well aren't you a fancy fucker
16:38 Walruswhiskers: tactician stacking is so lame, but it is okay, you can still end it all by quitting this game
16:38 Walruswhiskers has returned to the lobby.

I thought if he really thought tactician stacking was so lame, maybe he shouldn't have let me do it -- he let me grab 8 Merchant Ships, which was really the only thing on the board that made my tactician engine viable. He also gave me 20 turns to work with, and never forced me to pick up any Duchies. Oh well...

I realize I played far from optimally here, this was my first time building a double-tactician deck with any success at all, and I realize I did plenty of silly things to get there. The fact that Jack actually helped me is probably not so good. I also figured how to better play the Native Villages halfway through the game. I also bought a potion but never ended up picking up any Vineyards (whoops...)

[mangsky]

gg-ing in general seems more polite when the loser says it first.

yup!

[tko]

18:32 blueblimp: hi gl hf
18:34 ARTjoMS: lucky
18:35 blueblimp: oh getting the remake on 2x estate?
18:35 blueblimp: yeah that is nice, I hate it when it hits only copper
18:35 ARTjoMS: and buying silver in same turn
18:35 ARTjoMS: chances of that lucky very small
18:36 ARTjoMS: no gg
18:36 blueblimp: lol
18:36 ARTjoMS: pure luck
18:36 ARTjoMS has returned to the lobby.

Hardly someone to avoid.  He was just a little bitter.

I second this.  I've been taken to school by ARTjoMS twice and didn't encounter any personality issues. The most recent game I thought I was going to win.  In a game with Jack and Grand Market, I used my 5-buy prior to the 2nd shuffle to trash a few coin with Mint and later Mint'd a Gold on Turn 8.  His 5-buy prior to the 2nd shuffle was a Jester, and on Turn 8 his Jester gained him a Gold.  I'm not calling this play lucky... it was a helpful economy boost that occurred because he had the opportunity - he bought a Jester and I didn't.  I definitely enjoyed that quick and close game.
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120316-045201-cefa07d8.html#tko-show-turn-8

[toaster]

gg-ing in general seems more polite when the loser says it first.

yup!

Agreed.  That's one reason I much prefer "thanks for the game".

[Piemaster]

That's exactly the kind of player I do avoid.  If people start insulting me in random ways I consider that quite funny, but I really, really despise the bad loser.

[ARTjoMS]

18:32 blueblimp: hi gl hf
18:34 ARTjoMS: lucky
18:35 blueblimp: oh getting the remake on 2x estate?
18:35 blueblimp: yeah that is nice, I hate it when it hits only copper
18:35 ARTjoMS: and buying silver in same turn
18:35 ARTjoMS: chances of that lucky very small
18:36 ARTjoMS: no gg
18:36 blueblimp: lol
18:36 ARTjoMS: pure luck
18:36 ARTjoMS has returned to the lobby.

Hardly someone to avoid.  He was just a little bitter.

-//-.... is 5.3%. Not that unlikely, really.

What?

If my opponent gets unlucky and i get free win i cooperate with him rather make a hero of myself like you did.

[ARTjoMS]

That's exactly the kind of player I do avoid.  If people start insulting me in random ways I consider that quite funny, but I really, really despise the bad loser.

Apparently some ''good winners'' just can't admit that they got lucky. I suspect it is ego thing: huge ego + stubbornness = can't face truth, so they find it easier to take truth as insult so that their ego doesn't get hurt.

[Geronimoo]

As luck is so clearly a big part of this game, you're going to look like an idiot if you're berating the other guy for his good luck.

[RisingJaguar]

That's exactly the kind of player I do avoid.  If people start insulting me in random ways I consider that quite funny, but I really, really despise the bad loser.

Apparently some ''good winners'' just can't admit that they got lucky. I suspect it is ego thing: huge ego + stubbornness = can't face truth, so they find it easier to take truth as insult so that their ego doesn't get hurt.

On the flip side, pointing out times you get lucky and blaming it solely on luck seems like someone with a huge ego too.  I'm not saying its you, just that bad losers aren't so different from "good winners"

[rrenaud]

As luck is so clearly a big part of this game, you're going to look like an idiot if you're berating the other guy for his good luck.

If I say someone won because they got lucky in hitting the KC + mountebank.  Or they merely opened a 5/2 on a mountebank board, do I look like an idiot?

What if that is me talking about my own win?  Why is this not symmetric?

[Ozle]

Argh! Probability, not luck!

If I pull a similar move that has a 10% chance and it comes off against person A, I could have played it 9 times against someone else and not done it

[verikt]

I actually had a funny game this week. I told my opponent gg turn before last. He took it to mean I had 8 in hand and didn't buy the PUP. 2 turns later I won. If not for that lucky misunderstanding... Sometimes it pays to be polite :-)

[ecq]

As luck is so clearly a big part of this game, you're going to look like an idiot if you're berating the other guy for his good luck.

If I say someone won because they got lucky in hitting the KC + mountebank.  Or they merely opened a 5/2 on a mountebank board, do I look like an idiot?

What if that is me talking about my own win?  Why is this not symmetric?

If you're talking about your own win, you're giving the other guy the benefit of the doubt.  You're saying that he played as well as you did, but lost due to circumstances beyond his control.  It's a gesture of respect.

If you're talking about your own loss, you're saying that the other guy's victory was due (at least in part) to chance.  You're knocking him down a peg by saying he shouldn't have won or shouldn't have won by such a margin.  If it's someone you've played a lot and there's a mutual understanding that you have similar skill levels, that might be an okay thing to say.  Saying it to a stranger is pretty rude, though.

That all said, I'll point out luck events during the game, mostly just to make conversation ("wow," "ouch," "nice hand," or rarely "I can't draw $6 to save my life").

[jonts26]

Argh! Probability, not luck!

If I pull a similar move that has a 10% chance and it comes off against person A, I could have played it 9 times against someone else and not done it

So I can' say I got lucky? I have to say I got probability-y? No, you can't measure luck like you can probability, since it's somewhat of a subjective, colloquial term. But that doesn't make it not a real thing.

And technically speaking, you could also have that 10% chance come off 10 out of 10 times. That would be pretty lucky if you ask me.

[Geronimoo]

Don't tap the glass...

[jonts26]

Don't tap the glass...

Aw. But glass-tapping is one of my favorite hobbies.

[Lekkit]

A lot of players have a really good eye for finding luck in their opponent's draws while not seeing their own luck. I've had series of games with a lot of luck on one side (mine or my opponent's) and later the luck changes in the other player's favor. A lot of the times this happens the other player often complains while I'm lucky and says nothing while being lucky themselves. I'm not saying I'm better than the rest of the players, but I usually say something when my KC collides with my Mountebank on turn 6.

[AndrewRogue]

As early as I'll say GG is once I've bought the 3rd pile/last Colony/last Province, but before I've hit End Turn. I just like to get the chance to say it.

[Cuzz]

23:09 MensRightsVoiceYourVoice: gl hf if u a mens
23:09 MensRightsVoiceYourVoice: stfu if u a womens
23:36 MensRightsVoiceYourVoice: gg stuopid womens back 2 kitchen now go

Certainly just a troll but still....

[O]

18:32 blueblimp: hi gl hf
18:34 ARTjoMS: lucky
18:35 blueblimp: oh getting the remake on 2x estate?
18:35 blueblimp: yeah that is nice, I hate it when it hits only copper
18:35 ARTjoMS: and buying silver in same turn
18:35 ARTjoMS: chances of that lucky very small
18:36 ARTjoMS: no gg
18:36 blueblimp: lol
18:36 ARTjoMS: pure luck
18:36 ARTjoMS has returned to the lobby.

Hardly someone to avoid.  He was just a little bitter.

-//-.... is 5.3%. Not that unlikely, really.

What?

If my opponent gets unlucky and i get free win i cooperate with him rather make a hero of myself like you did.

This is exactly why I think this thread is harmful. Neither was particularly rude outside of bitterness about luck, but it gets posted on here and a harmless exchange becomes not only a potentially community-damaging issue, but also a center of pointless, pedantic discussion (yes, including my post here).

[Robz888]

These "you won because you got lucky!" people are really barking up the wrong tree.

When I lose, I always say: "Well, of course I lost. I went second, didn't I!?"

[Ozle]

A lot of players have a really good eye for finding luck in their opponent's draws while not seeing their own luck. I've had series of games with a lot of luck on one side (mine or my opponent's) and later the luck changes in the other player's favor. A lot of the times this happens the other player often complains while I'm lucky and says nothing while being lucky themselves. I'm not saying I'm better than the rest of the players, but I usually say something when my KC collides with my Mountebank on turn 6.

This isn't restricted to just Dominion, this is how people see the whooole of life usually.
Some people remember just the good times and think they are lucky
Some people remember mainly the bad things and think they are unlucky

[ARTjoMS]

10:59 def: wow, that is a weak, weak board.
10:59 ARTjoMS: why did u veto pwn?
10:59 ARTjoMS: only+buy
10:59 def: that's why
10:59 def: I thought you may go ambassador->engine
11:00 def: which I wanted to block.
11:00 ARTjoMS: meh didnt want it
11:01 ARTjoMS: stupid, but interesting
11:01 def: with pawn, something like counting house coppersmith would have been interesting.
11:02 ARTjoMS: that was my initial plan... but you vetoed pawn...
11:03 def: disconnects ftw..
11:04 def: you definitely need another copper
11:04 ARTjoMS: why?
11:04 ARTjoMS: i got coppersmith
11:04 def: would be even more fun, 8 coppers -> province
11:08 def: see, there you would have needed one more copper.^^
11:12 ARTjoMS: that was no less no more than birthday present
11:13 ARTjoMS: and you dont even thnak me
11:13 def: ?
11:15 def: what are you talking about?
11:15 ARTjoMS: last game
11:16 def: yeah...I won because we chose different tactics and mine wasn't too complicated, so?
11:16 ARTjoMS: i took clearly inferior strat knowing it, and you got free win
11:16 ARTjoMS: and you dont even thank me
11:16 def: lol
11:17 def: that's the most stupid thing I heard in a long time
11:17 def: nobody forced you to do so
11:17 ARTjoMS: that is the most afwul thing i have heard
11:17 ARTjoMS: when someone gives you present
11:17 ARTjoMS: and you dont say thank yuo.. just because they didnt have to do it
11:18 def: did I ask for a present? do I even have birthday? no. Plus, you started being rude in leaving immediately without saying anything.
11:18 ARTjoMS: rude lol.
11:19 ARTjoMS: leaving is rude?
11:19 ARTjoMS: you didnt say thank you
11:19 ARTjoMS: that is rude
11:34 def: and a lucked megaturn at the end didn't even help you. no gg, since you played shitty again, and get rid of your mental illness soon.
11:34 def has returned to the lobby.

Good flames Maybe i got ''mental illness'', but this guy is definitely smoking something illegal.

[Thisisnotasmile]

I don't see anything particularly horrifying there, but at the same time I don't think either of you can claim the moral high ground. This topic is getting a bit pathetic now.

[ARTjoMS]

I don't see anything particularly horrifying there, but at the same time I don't think either of you can claim the moral high ground. This topic is getting a bit pathetic now.

Yes, agreed, your post is indeed a bit pathetic.

[def]

Yeah, finally I got mentioned here, since I can get pretty pissed off when I'm losing four games in a row because of bad luck and probably deserve it in this cases.

But this...what the heck was wrong with you there?

To clarify things, there were two games. In the first game, I played simple BM+? (Oracle? Bureaucrat?) where he went for some village village counting house coppersmith thing, which was cool, but couldn't work without some big card draw, attacks, +buy or trashing. As you can see, I had no problems with some little nice chat.
The first game ended between 11:08 and 11:12 where he left so immediately that my gg didn't appear in the log.
Afterwards, I have no idea what he was talking about.
I started to ignore things at 11:19 and felt no reason to leave without some harsh, sarcastic remark about his behaviour and play (he seemed to randomly embargoing victory cards while behind, dragging out the game for far too long). I think this was my only rude comment during the whole chat, and since he is just some random guy on the internet provoking a little quarrel, I don't care. I really felt like he was suffering from loss of reality, since his words made absolutely no sense to me. Birthday present, thank him, what the hell?

[Kirian]

OK.

Theory?  RR?  I'm gonna ask for a lock on this thread.

Discussions of incivility have their own thread, and people are now calling other board members out directly, which cannot lead to anything good.  This thread serves no useful purpose that I can see.

Also, you still need to avoid that Kirian guy.  He's a total jerk.

[blueblimp]

I've deleted my recent posts, if that helps. In hindsight, they were inappropriate for this thread, as others have pointed out.

[Piemaster]

Discussions of incivility have their own thread, and people are now calling other board members out directly, which cannot lead to anything good.  This thread serves no useful purpose that I can see.

I disagree.  In fact, I think that one of the reasons that Isotropic is such a civil place on the whole (let's be far, by the internet's stand it is) is because the community is fairly small and people think that if they act like an ass the word will get out in places like this.

[Kuildeous]

I disagree.  In fact, I think that one of the reasons that Isotropic is such a civil place on the whole (let's be far, by the internet's stand it is) is because the community is fairly small and people think that if they act like an ass the word will get out in places like this.

I think the asses won't care.

There are plenty of people who will accept their challenges because they don't read this forum.

And even if the jerks are held accountable for their actions, they can just change their names. This can actually be harmful to a new player. If there is a popular name (say, Batman), then it's possible that some jerk can get the name dragged through the mud on these forums. He leaves it, and some new player decides to log in with that name. Suddenly, he's the bad guy, and other players say things like, "Avoid that Batman. He's a real asshole."

That's not to say that there isn't something useful about having two users air their disagreements, but I don't think that the real jerks out there will change their behavior because of this thread.

[theory]

OK.

Theory?  RR?  I'm gonna ask for a lock on this thread.

Discussions of incivility have their own thread, and people are now calling other board members out directly, which cannot lead to anything good.  This thread serves no useful purpose that I can see.

Also, you still need to avoid that Kirian guy.  He's a total jerk.

Sorry, I've been travelling this weekend and getting all my stuff back to the US.

I agree, though, that a bad topic has gotten much worse.