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[Roadrunner7671]

It's official, WW's memes have given me nightmares.

[Hydrad]

oh buy tons of stuff happening. rereading now

[Hydrad]

hurrah time for a series of posts.

[Hydrad]

Hmm, I misremembered some things. Need to refresh my memory

Also, had anyone but yuma and Haddock ever encountered not getting PPE?

I'm pretty sure I have before. its not very common but i remember my post going through and then seeing posts I hadn't noticed before above my post.

I'd say I'm only 84% sure about that though as maybe I just missed the PPE. It only happens like once every 6 games or so I think for me.

[Hydrad]

I'm townish on Ampharos now.

Great, that's step 1. Step 2 is voting for faust. There are other acceptable options, I'll let you try and find them by yourself.

Interesting. I've only read up to here but I'm curious how big the faust wagon gets. It feels like people are slowly gravitating to it.

[Hydrad]

He's more defensive of yuma than anyone else in the game.  He seems really really sure that yuma is town, way more confident than anyone else in the game.  Meh, confidence isn't inherently scummy.

So... this is definitely confirmation bias talking on my part, but just putting it out there : scum tends to be more trusting of claims such as yuma's (ie more or less a named VT) than town. Because they know they're true, and aren't as incentivized to fight them than "real" PRs (investigative PRs especially). They also know it's in scum's best interest to fight the IC-fication of someone, but if they think it won't succeed, they tend to be way more trusting because they think they'll appear scummy if they fight it. And when it's a player like yuma, they figure he's going to be hard to lynch, so the best solution is to kill him at some point.

This gets me thinking.  Scum did not kill Yuma last night.

3 possible reasons why:

1.  He is town and they want him to shoot or at the very least are not afraid of him doing so.

2.  He is town and they do not believe him to have his power he claims to.

3.  He is scum.

-------

Toss 2 out.  It doesn't really make sense. 

1 means that if Yuma shoots, he is doing what scum want, or are not afraid of.  That's bad.

3 is just bad.

Thus, because yuma was not killed last night, he is either scum, or scum are not afraid of his power and him using it would be in alignment with what they want.

-------

Thinking "out loud" here.

could also be worried about doctors or something.

[Hydrad]

I guess it's no use stretching this out. I have a result on WW that incriminates him. I think the best course of action would be for him to full claim, and then I state in detail what I know, but given people's reads on me, I don't know if you want to go through with a plan I proposed.

oh something interesting happened!

[Hydrad]

I guess it's no use stretching this out. I have a result on WW that incriminates him. I think the best course of action would be for him to full claim, and then I state in detail what I know, but given people's reads on me, I don't know if you want to go through with a plan I proposed.

Nope.  You're claiming first.

Oh? this is interesting also. I don't know what to think about this.

Lets keep reading!

[Hydrad]

And this is not negotiable.

Oh. this is really interesting. I don't know if I've really seen this happen before.

[Hydrad]

I'm trying to think if its more likely a town would say that or scum.

[Hydrad]

Have we ever tried the "both claim at the same time" solution ? Obviously it can't be literally at thesame time, but if we set a time and say within 5 seconds, has that been done ?

This seems like an ok solution. and if someone stalls then they get 50 scum points.

[Hydrad]

ok I'm caught up. also the WW images actually got a laugh out of me so +1 there.

Now for what to do. I personally don't see an issue with the same time claim. But I'm really interested why WW doesn't seem to like it. Its either a scum attempt to try to live longer or... hmmm... I'm trying to think why would town do this.

In my opinion I don't think a VT would be so reluctent to claim. So I feel it might be a PR. But at the same time it sounds like WW has a thought of why faust could have an incriminating result on him and it be wrong? I can't think of how that would happen really at all from and PR's I know of. other then just redirection stuff.

This doesn't really make much sense to me for town!WW.

So I'm in favor of both claim at same time or WW first I guess.

[Haddock]

I don't really know what to say here.

I still want the simultaneous claim I think, faust claiming first is not something I want to happen.

Still trawling through WW to find this breadcrumbed flavour.  I see something, but once again it's pretty tenuous.

[yuma]

So... I still think that faust should be the one to claim first. I feel like part of that is just good practice in general (although that I am a bit less sure about and might try and explain below to see if I feel that way once I go through the thought process) but more to do with just how I am reading faust in general.

But first off, I don't necessarily agree with the idea of having them simultaneously claim. There are two things about this. First is that faust is stating he is very much willing to claim, but his claim is dependent upon WW claiming first. WW, on the other hand, hasn't stated that he is willing to claim. That decision hasn't been made yet. His decision to claim is therefore dependent upon faust claiming first. So while I think the simultaneous claim could work for two people who are both willing to claim, but wanting the other to first, this isn't it. from my reading there could be scenarios where faust claims and then WW chooses to not claim. I think we have to at least respect that, even if we can't understand it or agree with it.

After that, I do find faust scummier in this game and, in my opinion, while there isn't anything wrong with claiming at a high L-value I don't think that is a situation where you can start making demands of other players. The time for making demands has passed. If you wanted to make demands, do it before you came under pressure... otherwise I think the onus falls on the claimer to come forward and then make demands with full disclosure.

So I think that is where I stand. faust claim first. WW then can claim if he feels it is justified. If faust's claim is alignment indicative and believable and WW continues to not want to claim we can consider lynching as a possible reason to compel him to claim. But I am certainly not going to be voting for him just because faust has an unclaimed result of some sort on him. So yeah, I think faust needs to claim first.

[EgorK]

Heh, coming here to talk about how I probably was wrong with both cases I pursued this game and getting into this

unvote

Back to find WW breadcumb

[faust]

After that, I do find faust scummier in this game and, in my opinion, while there isn't anything wrong with claiming at a high L-value I don't think that is a situation where you can start making demands of other players. The time for making demands has passed. If you wanted to make demands, do it before you came under pressure... otherwise I think the onus falls on the claimer to come forward and then make demands with full disclosure.

Eh... you're painting a strange picture here. First, I was under pressure today before I even made my first post, so I'm not exactly sure when "the time for making demands" was... And more importantly, I am not making demands. I proposed a plan that from my point of view is beneficial to town. Town can choose to go along with it or not. If the majority of the town agrees that it's a good plan, it will be them making the demands, not me.

[faust]

Heh, coming here to talk about how I probably was wrong with both cases I pursued this game and getting into this

unvote

Back to find WW breadcumb

I don't really get why WW would spark this useless breadcrumb discussion when he could just as easily flavor claim.

[Teproc]

@yuma : I see where you're coming from, but I just don't think not claiming is a realistic possibility for WW here.

faust claims to have an incriminating result on him. But he asks WW to claim first. This indicates one of two things :
- it's not a definitive result, ie there is a town narrative for it. town!faust wants WW to provide that narrative to see if it fits, if it doesn't it becomes an incriminating result.
- faust is scum hoping to adjust his claim to whatever WW says

The second one is not that likely, but we have to respect the possibility. But once faust claims, WW will have to claim to show how the seemingly incriminating result isn't one.

The reason I like the simultaneous claim is that it avoids the situation I'm most afraid of here, which is a situation where we lynch one of them, he flips town and the next day we're not completely sure the other is scum because they got to adjust their claim to fit a town narrative in that case.

[yuma]

After that, I do find faust scummier in this game and, in my opinion, while there isn't anything wrong with claiming at a high L-value I don't think that is a situation where you can start making demands of other players. The time for making demands has passed. If you wanted to make demands, do it before you came under pressure... otherwise I think the onus falls on the claimer to come forward and then make demands with full disclosure.

Eh... you're painting a strange picture here. First, I was under pressure today before I even made my first post, so I'm not exactly sure when "the time for making demands" was... And more importantly, I am not making demands. I proposed a plan that from my point of view is beneficial to town. Town can choose to go along with it or not. If the majority of the town agrees that it's a good plan, it will be them making the demands, not me.

I am not painting a picture, I am trying to understand the situation. Don't put an unknown motive on me when there isn't one.

But I do think it may be fair to say that "making demands" wasn't the correct wording.

But you are to an extent doing that to WW. At least to the extent that you are stating that you won't claim your result until WW claims his role. That is a demand. It isn't a request unless you planned on claiming your result regardless of WW said, but that doesn't appear to be what you are doing.

And I am just saying that the time to make that "demand" was earlier, before you had 4 votes on you. Because when you have 4 votes on you isn't the time to want other people to do stuff. The time was earlier. I don't think you immediately shot up to 4 votes before you posted right? What I am saying is that if you had stated what you stated earlier in the day at a time before you were at L-2, I might be more willing to want WW to claim first. As it stands. I think you should claim first and revoke your "demand" on WW.

[Haddock]

I don't really get why WW would spark this useless breadcrumb discussion when he could just as easily flavor claim.

I don't agree that it's useless.   If a few people see the breadcrumbing and have an idea first, then when he eventually does flavor claim we might have some towny people who can then point out the breadcrumbing and say "yes this is supported by the breadcrumbing" or "no this isn't". 

WW's claiming second becomes much more viable if we have a few people who think they already know his flavour.  Then he can't modify too much.

I think you should claim first and revoke your "demand" on WW.

No demands should be revoked under any circumstances, as far as I can see.

Both faust and WW are demanding things of each other at this point, they are entitled to try to make those demands.  Noone's obliged to comply with those demands, but it's better for people to be clearcut about what they want here.

I still want a simultaneous claim, but yuma is beginning to convince me that maybe faust claiming first is not so terrible - on the condition that a few people have found WW's flavour crumbing first.

[faust]

But you are to an extent doing that to WW. At least to the extent that you are stating that you won't claim your result until WW claims his role.

Uh, I never said that. Like, I checked the thread, nowhere do I state something like this.

[yuma]

But you are to an extent doing that to WW. At least to the extent that you are stating that you won't claim your result until WW claims his role.

Uh, I never said that. Like, I checked the thread, nowhere do I state something like this.

Well then I misinterpreted what you said. At the very least I felt the above was implied.

So are you willing to claim your role/result right now then?

[EgorK]

I am leaning simultaneous claim here

[faust]

I don't really get why WW would spark this useless breadcrumb discussion when he could just as easily flavor claim.

I don't agree that it's useless.   If a few people see the breadcrumbing and have an idea first, then when he eventually does flavor claim we might have some towny people who can then point out the breadcrumbing and say "yes this is supported by the breadcrumbing" or "no this isn't". 

WW's claiming second becomes much more viable if we have a few people who think they already know his flavour.  Then he can't modify too much.

Eh. Once WW flavor claims, he can simply point out the breadcrumb and we can figure out whether it fits. A breadcrumb should be obvious once pointed out anyway. I don't know why we have people wasting their time searching for this when WW can simply point it out once we need it.

[faust]

But you are to an extent doing that to WW. At least to the extent that you are stating that you won't claim your result until WW claims his role.

Uh, I never said that. Like, I checked the thread, nowhere do I state something like this.

Well then I misinterpreted what you said. At the very least I felt the above was implied.

So are you willing to claim your role/result right now then?

I will if a majority of the town feels that it is the best thing to do.