Dominion Strategy Forum
Miscellaneous => Forum Games => Mafia Game Threads => Topic started by: popsofctown on May 11, 2012, 03:27:44 pm
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Conduct rules
1. Don't edit or delete a post.
2. Don't quote your role pm, or try to use the time it was sent to figure out things. Saying your role name is fine.
3. PM the mod if you're not sure something is allowed.
4. Post once every 48 hours, aim to post once every 24 hours (even more than that is better). If you won't be able to post for a while, bold a post in the thread saying so.
5. Don't communicate with other players in the game about the game, except if you're mafia partners and it's nighttime. This includes dead players.
6. Don't post when you're not allowed to. (e.g. night phase).
Game rules
1. Town wins the game when all the mafia members are dead and at least one townie is alive. Mafia wins when all the townies are dead and at least one mafia member is alive.
2. During the day, all players, including mafia members, may vote for another player to lynch. Bold your votes. When a player has a majority of votes, he is lynched, removed from the game, and dead. At deadline, a mere plurality of votes will decide the lynch. A tie at deadline means no one is lynched.
3. Deadline will be ten days. At deadline night automatically begins and a lynch is decided as described above.
4. When a player receives a majority of the votes, you may continue to post until the mod recognizes that majority. At that point you must stop immediately, even if he hasn't posted a death scene yet.
5. At night, if you aren't a townie, you should pm the mod your actions for the night. Doctors, Jailkeepers, or Cops need to pm the name of the player they wish to target, and may not choose themselves. Mafia rolecop needs to pm a target as well. If I don't get a pm, I'll presume you wish to do nothing. Either mafia member needs to pm the name of the player they wish to kill, and designate which mafia member will perform the kill (which means he risks being inhibited by the jailkeeper). Out of sympathy for the difficulty in coordinating with a partner and concern for the impact of a missed kill, failure to pm a kill will result in a random kill.
6. You may no lynch, no kill, or elect not to use a power role. No lynching is accomplished by voting no lynch in the thread and gaining majority or deadline plurality. PM no kills and power role skips to the mod.
7. Happily Ever After Rule - If town no-lynches and mafia no-kills for 4 consecutive days and nights, the mafia instantly wins the game.
8. For power role explication, refer to the post I made during signups, or pm the mod, or ask the other players in thread.
Signup post spoilered.
Since it looks like we'll have enough players for an inhouse mafia game, I'll be running it. Signups are here.
The setup I'd recommend is 2of4, the setup mafiascum currently uses for their newbie games. It's a good setup, and you don't need crazy advanced power roles to have a good time playing mafia.
The setup is
1 Mafia rolecop (his investigations report roles)
1 Mafia goon (he's worth some VP if he makes it to the buy phase.. but that's it, normal mafia member)
5 townies
A random 2 of:
1 Cop
1 Doctor
1 Jailkeeper (works like a doctor, except his target is also unable to perform kills do night actions)
1 Townie
Power roles can't target themselves. The setup discourages day 1 claiming but allows for lots of simple power roles in a setup with a small number of players.
I'd recommend 2 week deadlines, but one week is ok too if that's all you think you guys can handle.
A nine player setup is probably best, replacements might be necessary if someone drops out.
theory
Ozle
Thisisnotasmile
O
ftl
Robz888
Axxle
goober
Davio
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I'm in.
Can you be more explicit in describing the roles, for those of us new to this?
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Yeah, im in as well but not done it before...
Found this:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Newbie_Guide
That give me enough of a briefing?
And when are the 'turns' ending? One per day?
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In please.
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In... but I'd be careful of designing a setup before we have an accurate player count.
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I believe he has designated 9 players
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I'm in!
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Interested... But will sit out and watch first go around. Sounds like there's enough interest for a good run. I just don't know enough about the gameplay yet. Will read up. ;D
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Hey, if all is over within one week, I really like to join.
But today in a week I will be away for another week, so maybe it's better to skip the first round. What do you think?
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I'm new here, but I am definitely interested.
I'm in, if you don't mind.
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I am in!!!
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I'll play. Looking forward to playing with you all!
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Oh, right.
Two weeks is the deadline I was proposing for any particular day. For a nine player setup, that would be a two month game at max length, barring unusual no-lynching or doctoring.
I suggested a week in case you thought you wouldn't be able to keep discussions going for two weeks, or wanted a lighter first game.
Mafiascum games often use 3 week deadlines, but I mostly see only experienced players fully utilizing those. And even those are usually 25 player games, I believe.
The spirit of a deadline is similar to 90 minute versus 90 minute chess clock - you let the players make decisions as quickly as they naturally would for the most part, but cut off situations where a decision can be improved by tiny bits by lengthy analysis. It's rare to have a legitimate favorite for lynching in less than 72 hours, and after two weeks or so it will be hard to improve you choice much.
As for theory's request
Mafia rolecop: The mafia rolecop tells the moderator a player he wants to investigate each night. He will receive either the answer, "townie", "cop", "doctor", or "jailkeeper". He may also perform the kill for the night (if he is jailkept, the investigation fails. If he tried to kill, both actions fail.)
Mafia goon: The mafia goon has no special abilities. He may perform the kill for the night (if he is jailkept, he fails).
Cop: The cop tells the moderator a player he wishes to investigate. He will be answered, "That player is mafia" or "That player is not mafia" (if he is jailkept, he fails).
Doctor: The doctor tells the moderator a player he wishes to protect. That player will be immune to kills that night. (if the doctor is jailkept, he fails, that player might get killed).
Jailkeeper: The jailkeeper tells the moderator a player he wants to jail for the night. That player is immune to nightkills. In addition, kills or actions that player attempts fail. The player won't be informed that his action failed, although the rolecop will get "no result" and the cop will get "no result" so they'll know.
No roles can target themselves.
Has everyone played face to face mafia before?
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I'm in!
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I'm in, looks like fun!
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I'll sit this one out, but interested in the next round.
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I'm going to need all the "ins" before my post to reconfirm, since there seemed to be some confusion on the time commitment the game entails.
While you're at it, chip in two cents about which deadline length you'd prefer.
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/in as Newbie
I'm very flexible for time commitments. Anything is good for me pretty much.
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I'm still in, and would prefer the one week per day timeframe. I've not played mafia before, but I'm excited for the game!
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No preference about deadlines, really, I'll work around whatever it is.
...oh, wait. I'll be gone for a week with spotty internet access starting June 7th and coming back June 17th. So if the game takes longer than 4 weeks, then I can't be in this one... well, I guess if days are two weeks each, then that means I could still play but I'd have to miss half a day if I'm in, or the end of one day and the start of the next... that seems not good. Hmm. That might not work so well.
I've played face to face mafia, though not with that roleset. Doctor and cop are familiar, jailkeeper and mafia rolecop are new.
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ftl, it might be best for you to be on hold to replace in after June 17th.
Wait - no. That's a month away isn't it. If one week wins out, the game should finish in time for you. If it's 2 weeks, between the odds of your death and the flexibility of other players you'd probably be ok to miss 10 days.
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Interested but probably sitting out the first rounds to see how this works online.
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I'll be giving reconfirmers priority over later /ins.
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I would like to re-confirm my initial "in." I am really excited to play!
As I noted in the other post, I have played face-to-face mafia quite a bit.
EDIT: About the time limit, anything is fine with me.
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ftl, it might be best for you to be on hold to replace in after June 17th.
Wait - no. That's a month away isn't it. If one week wins out, the game should finish in time for you. If it's 2 weeks, between the odds of your death and the flexibility of other players you'd probably be ok to miss 10 days.
OK, cool!
Then I def. vote one week.
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Still in.
Never played face to face but have played many many many times online with all sorts of wacky roles so nothing is really new to me. Happy for whatever timescales but I'd prefer something shorter because from experience people will just sit out and say nothing for as long as possible waiting for somebody else to say something incriminating, which obviously nobody does because they are sitting out doing the same.
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Yeah week sounds fine
Never played it at all, but it seems fairly straight forward.
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reconfirm
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reconfirm
I'm interested in future games, but having never played mafia or werewolf, I'd like to observe one first before making an ass of myself.
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Still in.
Never played face to face but have played many many many times online with all sorts of wacky roles so nothing is really new to me. Happy for whatever timescales but I'd prefer something shorter because from experience people will just sit out and say nothing for as long as possible waiting for somebody else to say something incriminating, which obviously nobody does because they are sitting out doing the same.
"Talking is dangerous" is a toxic mentality that destroys a mafia game with any deadline. If you're town, you should feel free to talk a lot, the more transparent you are, the more you'll move from 2/9ths chance of being scum to less in others' eyes. If other players are bad, they might misinterpret your words and lynch you, yeah, but ultimately that's their incorrect interpretation of your behavior.
Towns that talk are towns that lynch more accurately.
I can't give play advice midgame so I bring stuff up now.
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I'm in for this asynchronous lynchfest. Async is the new black, baby!
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Reconfirming that I am in
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Reconfirming
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Theory
Ozle
Thisisnotasmile
O
ftl
Robz8888
Axxle
goober
Davio
This is my preliminary playerlist. WrathofGlod posted interest in the mafia thread but was not actually among the first to sign up. He can stand by to replace.
A player with a single post on this site asked to play, but I'm going to give other players precedence, in general they will be a bit more reliable.
I will make a very large, clear rules post later and send role pms, but today I may be too busy.
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Darn... said I was interested in the other thread, but missed this :(. Anyone want to host a second game, same setup? I could do it, but my moderation tends to be of the games I described before - much more crazy games. I'd probably screw something as simple as this up, somehow.
"I'd recommend 2 week deadlines, but one week is ok too if that's all you think you guys can handle."
Do you mean, uh, 2 week day phases? Isn't that a bit... 5 times as long as normal ish? Most forums I've played on (3 of them) use 2-3 day deadlines, and discussion tends to die by day 3 anyway.
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Darn... said I was interested in the other thread, but missed this :(. Anyone want to host a second game, same setup? I could do it, but my moderation tends to be of the games I described before - much more crazy games. I'd probably screw something as simple as this up, somehow.
"I'd recommend 2 week deadlines, but one week is ok too if that's all you think you guys can handle."
Do you mean, uh, 2 week day phases? Isn't that a bit... 5 times as long as normal ish? Most forums I've played on (3 of them) use 2-3 day deadlines, and discussion tends to die by day 3 anyway.
The only place I've played is mafiascum, (well... I just started my first game last week) and in that the default for the noob game is 3 weeks.
I can try modding, it'll be my first time though.
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Everyone should have a role pm. PM me if you somehow didn't get one.
You can start playing now, deadline is May 23rd.
The rules are up, be sure to read them.
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You are ALL the mafia. All of you, I say! Okay, have to re-read these rules.
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Everyone was happily piling up things in their Garden filled kingdom - a week ago popsofctown acquired a Duchy to the north, and brought a cute Duchess back to his home in the Gardens (he claims her Duke is dead, we like to believe him). They enjoyed long walks through the beautiful foliage and throwing Coppers into the fountains and making wishes. But this morning, the Duchess came screaming out of the house. She had been widowed again, popsofctown lay dead in the floor of their house, a knife in his back. It is sad, but his spirit still guides us all.
Day 1 has begun.
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Oh well, at least it was popsofctown and not someone irreplacable like Thisisnotasmile.
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So we know that the mafia include someone powerful enough to kill the gamemaster... Only an admin, I'd say.... 8)
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popsofctown wishes for a Copper ... finding a Spy (http://wiki.teamfortress.com/wiki/Backstab) instead
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I blame the Duchess. Barring that, the Duke, who wasn't actually dead.
Whose post count is closest to being a 'Duke'? Ozle! It all makes sense now.
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...hmm, maybe I shouldn't blame Ozle. He's nice. I like him.
Reassigning blame to TINAS, who is the one in the game with the highest post count.
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We should be asking ourselves why Goober, Davio, and Axxle are so silent...
If I get killed, can I reveal a Moat and survive? (But if I reveal it 7 times in a row I am out of the game).
Serious question: So we don't actually know, right, if we are playing with cop/doctor/jailer/extra townie?
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We should be asking ourselves why Goober, Davio, and Axxle are so silent...
No clue who killed the gamemaster, maybe it was mrs. Peacock with a wrench in the ...oh wait other game.
It must be that jealous Baron! Or some of the other Nobles, they're always backstabbing and Scheming.
(http://dominion.diehrstraits.com/scans/intrigue/nobles.jpg)
The guy whispers: "I did as you instructed, my liege"
And the guy in the back is thinking: "Oh no! I'm next!"
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(http://www.dominiondeck.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/cards-landing/cards/scheme.jpg)
"Little do they know... we will repeat our last move, and kill again!"
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Davio has motive, and it looks like he chose a very poetic location for his revenge:
http://councilroom.com/game?game_id=game-20120221-052459-3dc716d0.html
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ftl is a Witch, lets burn him!
(It's Mother's Day in the US and my mom is visiting from the other side of the country. needless to say I'll be MIA for the day)
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I've made a mistake, and am going to reshuffle roles. Since not much mafia has been played yet, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I apologize for the mistake, I fail at forums.
The setup will also be rerandomized, so if you got a power role it might not exist next time around.
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I've made a mistake, and am going to reshuffle roles. Since not much mafia has been played yet, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I apologize for the mistake, I fail at forums.
The setup will also be rerandomized, so if you got a power role it might not exist next time around.
No problem. Invariably, it happens. Whenever I play in real life, the first game always ends up being a do-over.
Pops is still the first kill, I take it? That happens automatically, right?
This time I arbitrarily suspect TINAS and theory.
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I am back to supporting killing Ozle, based on his proximity to Duke-ness.
TINAS and theory are acceptable targets too.
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I accuse anyone who has already accused people.
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I accuse anyone who has already accused people.
He accuses himself!
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Now, a common terminology for non-role townspeople is "Vanilla". Obviously whoever has the most "vanilla" card is most likely to be townie then. Explorer... booorrrinngg
Witch and apprentice though...
Also, I claim Jester.
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Robz and ftl seem to be in cahoots ... they must be the mafia!
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Robz and ftl seem to be in cahoots ... they must be the mafia!
Oh, look at this, he's trying to change the subject. How... incriminating...
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Statisically, whoever has the least amount of accusations against them is most likely to be mafia.
I'd like to accuse myself, on that note.
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I've made a mistake, and am going to reshuffle roles. Since not much mafia has been played yet, it shouldn't be too much of a problem. I apologize for the mistake, I fail at forums.
The setup will also be rerandomized, so if you got a power role it might not exist next time around.
No problem. Invariably, it happens. Whenever I play in real life, the first game always ends up being a do-over.
Pops is still the first kill, I take it? That happens automatically, right?
This time I arbitrarily suspect TINAS and theory.
Yes, the flavor hasn't changed.
Also, theory's identification of the fountain that was mentioned as a Wishing Well is recognized and now canon.
You may change your votes freely, unvoting or voting a different player. Feel free to use your vote however you see fit.
Votecount:
Nothing
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Robz888 and ftl
Sitting in a tree
L Y N C H I N G
First comes the votes
then comes the night
Then comes the mafia with their mafia coats
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Robz888 and ftl
Sitting in a tree
L Y N C H I N G
First comes the votes
then comes the night
Then comes the mafia with their mafia coats
Let me be clear, theory. You are warning ftl and myself that the mafia are coming for us? And how would you know that, I wonder?
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It's on the map the dude in his avatar is looking at.
It's a maffia hitlist!
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It's on the map the dude in his avatar is looking at.
It's a maffia hitlist!
That, or really expensive directions to the next two coppers in his deck.
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Well thank God for the reshuffle. Haven't played for a while and wasn't really prepared for being mafia. That's not to say I'm not mafia anymore, but what are the odds?
Also, if me and Theory are the main suspects then that means... THEORY IS THE SPY oh wrong game MAFIA!
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Well thank God for the reshuffle. Haven't played for a while and wasn't really prepared for being mafia. That's not to say I'm not mafia anymore, but what are the odds?
Also, if me and Theory are the main suspects then that means... THEORY IS THE SPY oh wrong game MAFIA!
Let me make sure I understand you correctly... you are unwilling to say unequivocally that you are not the mafia this time? Interesting!
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Of course I am not mafia. I just don't like saying it outright because that ruins all your guys fun of trying to work out if I am mafia or not, but on this occasion I will just say it.
I am not mafia.
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Vote: Thisisnotasmile
Easiest game of mafia ever.
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???
You sure?
Edit: (I know editting is not allowed but this isn't game-related) Can we have a list of all signups in the first post of the topic please, pops?
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Seems like as good a reason as we'll ever have for voting for someone in round 1!
That said, I'm not gonna bold a vote yet. Gotta give the mafia more chances to shoot themselves in their scummy feet. I still want to know who Ozle accuses!
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Sorry I am here now!
Start time caught me out a little bit!
Accusations incoming!
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I blame the Duchess. Barring that, the Duke, who wasn't actually dead.
Whose post count is closest to being a 'Duke'? Ozle! It all makes sense now.
*frantically posts more*
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Of course I am not mafia. I just don't like saying it outright because that ruins all your guys fun of trying to work out if I am mafia or not, but on this occasion I will just say it.
I am not mafia.
I cant work out whether this is a double or a triple bluff!
Although why would you need to try and bluff if you were a townie....
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Seems like as good a reason as we'll ever have for voting for someone in round 1!
That said, I'm not gonna bold a vote yet. Gotta give the mafia more chances to shoot themselves in their scummy feet. I still want to know who Ozle accuses!
I am waiting to do purely reciprocal voting for whoever votes for me, that'll learn 'em!
But you are currently favourite for saying you like me, and then saying im back to the top of your lynching list! Broke my heart
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As far as I can tell, these are people in the town:
theory
Ozle
Thisisnotasmile
O
ftl
Robz888
Axxle
goober
Davio
Here is a list of people that could potentially be mafia:
Ozle
Thisisnotasmile
O
ftl
Robz888
Axxle
goober
Davio
"mafia" has 5 letters. Axxle and Davio have 5 letters. There are two mafia members. Coincidence? I think not!
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I'm currently most suspicious of Robz888 for coming out all guns blazing accusing pretty much everybody in the game of being mafia and Axxle for actually making a bolded lynch vote based on absolutely nothing when we've had less than 12 hours to actually interrogate each other.
In the interest thread Robz stated that he does this in IRL mafia too, so I'm not hugely concernaed about that, but Axxle, what have you got to say?
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As far as I can tell, these are people in the town:
theory
Ozle
Thisisnotasmile
O
ftl
Robz888
Axxle
goober
Davio
Here is a list of people that could potentially be mafia:
Ozle
Thisisnotasmile
O
ftl
Robz888
Axxle
goober
Davio
"mafia" has 5 letters. Axxle and Davio have 5 letters. There are two mafia members. Coincidence? I think not!
You missed "theory" off the potential mafia list but other than that I like your detective work.
Also, notice how the A and I in "Davio" line up with those in "mafia" AND the positions of consonants and vowels line up precisely! Coincidence? Who knows.
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theory - Slightly Suspicious
Ozle - Innocent
Thisisnotasmile - Highly Suspicious
O - Undeicded
ftl - Highly Suspicious
Robz888 - Extrmely Suspicious
Axxle - Suspicious
goober - Slightly Suspicious
Davio - Undecided
Also, I reckon it could all be a trap and PopofCtown could have done it!
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I'm currently most suspicious of Robz888 for coming out all guns blazing accusing pretty much everybody in the game of being mafia and Axxle for actually making a bolded lynch vote based on absolutely nothing when we've had less than 12 hours to actually interrogate each other.
Pfft, this is just because you were the one being accused. Reflect reactions never work, don't you know?
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Okay seriously why are we suspicious of me? Is this because I didn't feel the need to state "I am not mafia" when it's obvious that everybody in the game is taking that stance? Okay cool good plan. Here's a list of everybody in the game who has as yet not stated that they are not mafia and therefore are highly suspicious:
theory
Ozle
O
ftl
Robz888
Axxle
goober
Davio
Please note I am not on this list and that one person on this list, O, has claimed to be both a Jester (not in the game) and also attempted to (jokingly) cast suspicion on himself.
That is all.
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I'm currently most suspicious of Robz888 for coming out all guns blazing accusing pretty much everybody in the game of being mafia and Axxle for actually making a bolded lynch vote based on absolutely nothing when we've had less than 12 hours to actually interrogate each other.
Pfft, this is just because you were the one being accused. Reflect reactions never work, don't you know?
No no no. It's not that they don't work, it's that if they existed they would be more powerful than the attacks themselves. However, I am happy to lynch me if that's how it's going to be. I'd have a good laugh.
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1) Just a reminder. There's no "O" in mafia. Neither is there B,C,D,E,G,H,J,K,L,N,P,Q,R,S,T,U,V,W,X,Y,Z. But mostly importantly, no O.
Also, just a clarification question: I have a moat in hand, so I can't be killed during the nighttime, right?
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1) Just a reminder. There's no "O" in mafia. Neither is there B,C,D,E,G,H,J,K,L,N,P,Q,R,S,T,U,V,W,X,Y,Z. But mostly importantly, no O.
Also, just a clarification question: I have a moat in hand, so I can't be killed during the nighttime, right?
I agree heartily with this statement! Therefore O people (Which is anyone whose name begins with O) must be innocent.
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Okay seriously why are we suspicious of me? Is this because I didn't feel the need to state "I am not mafia" when it's obvious that everybody in the game is taking that stance? Okay cool good plan. Here's a list of everybody in the game who has as yet not stated that they are not mafia and therefore are highly suspicious:
Your list is the wrong way round, based on thje logic that people are suspicious of you because you stated you were not the Mafia....so those people are not suspicious! (Although clearly some of them are!)
But obviously there is very little logic at this point anyway
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My name may have some similarities with the word Mafia, it doesn't mean I am one.
In fact, I would argue that due to random role assignments any connection between someone's name and his affiliation is a dead end.
We townies must use logic, reason and all that Vulcanology (the planet, not the seismic event) to suss out the Mafias, blind accusations won't help.
That being said, I don't suspect Thisisnotasmile at the moment, I suspect Axxle for being so quick to jump the gun on him...
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It looks like I should explain myself a little. There are a few reasons I voted for TINAS.
Well thank God for the reshuffle. Haven't played for a while and wasn't really prepared for being mafia. That's not to say I'm not mafia anymore, but what are the odds?
Also, if me and Theory are the main suspects then that means... THEORY IS THE SPY oh wrong game MAFIA!
This is incredibly suspicious. He's basically coming right out the gate trying to explain how he isn't mafia. Feels very lampshadey. He's even trying to use bad math to his benefit. "What are the odds?" Still 2/9 at game start, same as everyone else.
Putting pressure on players early is a great way to get them to respond and get more information out of them and other players. I'm actually feeling really good about the people who are strongly suspicious of me. Most of you seem a unfamiliar with Mafia, or haven't played in a while or ever on a forum, so I can see having someone accusing people so fast might raise red flags. But remember, anyone can change their vote at any time, I strongly suggest everyone to use it as a way of applying pressure when needed.
Some of these people who accuse everyone as mafia are obviously just making a joke, so not really indicators of mafianess from it in and of itself. However, the fact that they feel the need to keep making jokes, maybe it's an indication that they don't want to dive straight away into the game, and test the waters to see what everyone else is doing while still looking like they're doing something? I don't know.
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Obviously "respect" on this forum is little more than a codeword of "fear". The most feared people are the most likely to be mafia (and an admin mafia... dear god, who could possibly defeat that?)
So I only really see two possible outcomes:
1) Me and goober aren't mafia
2) You guys upvote this comment enough that I become 3rd or so in respect, and then I become mafia 8)
Also, @Axxle: It's statistically better for the village to lynch every night, and as we have no real information (except that Theory is obviously mafia), we may as well joke around. ("we" of course assuming you aren't Mafia.)
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Obviously "respect" on this forum is little more than a codeword of "fear". The most feared people are the most likely to be mafia (and an admin mafia... dear god, who could possibly defeat that?)
So I only really see two possible outcomes:
1) Me and goober aren't mafia
2) You guys upvote this comment enough that I become 3rd or so in respect, and then I become mafia 8)
Also, @Axxle: It's statistically better for the village to lynch every night, and as we have no real information (except that Theory is obviously mafia), we may as well joke around. ("we" of course assuming you aren't Mafia.)
But if at least we use the semblance of reason, we might be able to go back in the thread and see who was accusing who and that might be the beginning of clues after the first lynch and kill
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1) Me and goober aren't mafia
Chummy with Goober are you......
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Obviously "respect" on this forum is little more than a codeword of "fear". The most feared people are the most likely to be mafia (and an admin mafia... dear god, who could possibly defeat that?)
So I only really see two possible outcomes:
1) Me and goober aren't mafia
2) You guys upvote this comment enough that I become 3rd or so in respect, and then I become mafia 8)
Also, @Axxle: It's statistically better for the village to lynch every night, and as we have no real information (except that Theory is obviously mafia), we may as well joke around. ("we" of course assuming you aren't Mafia.)
But if at least we use the semblance of reason, we might be able to go back in the thread and see who was accusing who and that might be the beginning of clues after the first lynch and kill
Except that never happens.
theory 1 9
Ozle 2
Thisisnotasmile 3
ftl 4
Robz888 5 0
Axxle 6
goober 7
Davio 8
I'll probably vote for whoever has the digit that this posts timestamp's second counter lands on.
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I'm currently most suspicious of Robz888 for coming out all guns blazing accusing pretty much everybody in the game of being mafia and Axxle for actually making a bolded lynch vote based on absolutely nothing when we've had less than 12 hours to actually interrogate each other.
In the interest thread Robz stated that he does this in IRL mafia too, so I'm not hugely concernaed about that, but Axxle, what have you got to say?
As you note, I did mention in the other thread that I am a big and active accuser in every mafia game. I think I am more often killed because people are sicking of me talking than because they think I am the mafia! Hopefully we can play quite often and others will learn that I do play "guns blazing" regardless of what role I have.
When I said that TINAS was suspicious for not unequivocally stating he wasn't mafia, I was more or less kidding. Just trying to stir discussion. But here's a good example of why doing that can be instructive. Seems to me his response was extremely defensive. This could just be how he is of course, or it could be because he is mafia. In all seriousness, with very little to go on, I would tend suspect TINAS more than others, now.
What say you, friends?
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Just to clarify, does this day end early if everybody has voted a majority, so if 5 of us all of a sudden go for the same person in the next 5 minutes, then that auto ends the day? in which case I can see advantages for both voting early and late for either side!
And then once its night we cant talk to each other until the day phase right?
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I should clarify: There are people who use a semblance of reason with their voting picks for the first round, Axxle.
Mafia
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I'm currently most suspicious of Robz888 for coming out all guns blazing accusing pretty much everybody in the game of being mafia and Axxle for actually making a bolded lynch vote based on absolutely nothing when we've had less than 12 hours to actually interrogate each other.
In the interest thread Robz stated that he does this in IRL mafia too, so I'm not hugely concernaed about that, but Axxle, what have you got to say?
As you note, I did mention in the other thread that I am a big and active accuser in every mafia game. I think I am more often killed because people are sicking of me talking than because they think I am the mafia! Hopefully we can play quite often and others will learn that I do play "guns blazing" regardless of what role I have.
When I said that TINAS was suspicious for not unequivocally stating he wasn't mafia, I was more or less kidding. Just trying to stir discussion. But here's a good example of why doing that can be instructive. Seems to me his response was extremely defensive. This could just be how he is of course, or it could be because he is mafia. In all seriousness, with very little to go on, I would tend suspect TINAS more than others, now.
What say you, friends?
I agree with your quite defensive comment about TINAS, but then your first paragraph here is quite defensive, followed by a shift of direction in the conversation onto someone else...
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Be my guest. ;)
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I'm currently most suspicious of Robz888 for coming out all guns blazing accusing pretty much everybody in the game of being mafia and Axxle for actually making a bolded lynch vote based on absolutely nothing when we've had less than 12 hours to actually interrogate each other.
In the interest thread Robz stated that he does this in IRL mafia too, so I'm not hugely concernaed about that, but Axxle, what have you got to say?
As you note, I did mention in the other thread that I am a big and active accuser in every mafia game. I think I am more often killed because people are sicking of me talking than because they think I am the mafia! Hopefully we can play quite often and others will learn that I do play "guns blazing" regardless of what role I have.
When I said that TINAS was suspicious for not unequivocally stating he wasn't mafia, I was more or less kidding. Just trying to stir discussion. But here's a good example of why doing that can be instructive. Seems to me his response was extremely defensive. This could just be how he is of course, or it could be because he is mafia. In all seriousness, with very little to go on, I would tend suspect TINAS more than others, now.
What say you, friends?
I agree with your quite defensive comment about TINAS, but then your first paragraph here is quite defensive, followed by a shift of direction in the conversation onto someone else.
Yes, that too was my first thought after posting it. TINAS, though, had like a series of posts defending himself....
... and now I do too! Gah! Catch-22!
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This is why mafia games on my old forum died. If you defend yourself it makes you look even more suspicious so the easiest solution is not to post in the first place.
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This is why mafia games on my old forum died. If you defend yourself it makes you look even more suspicious so the easiest solution is not to post in the first place.
Hey, that's fair (still though, defensive!). Let's see who has posted the least and make a fuss about them. Give me a sec.
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Nah, not being defensive anymore. I'm happy to be lynched. I'm fine being randomly lynched as long as there is no REAL info going around because it means I can sit back and laugh at my team (read: town) for bringing it upon themselves for the rest of the game. And hey, chances are we are going to lynch one of our own, so may as well get rid of someone who doesn't have a power role. It could be worse, right?
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Nah, not being defensive anymore. I'm happy to be lynched. I'm fine being randomly lynched as long as there is no REAL info going around because it means I can sit back and laugh at my team (read: town) for bringing it upon themselves for the rest of the game. And hey, chances are we are going to lynch one of our own, so may as well get rid of someone who doesn't have a power role. It could be worse, right?
Everything you say is suspicious to me.
But as promised! Here is the number of posts people have made since Pops restarted the game.
Robz888 -- 10
Theory -- 3
TINAS -- 10
Ozle -- 10
Davio -- 2
Ftl -- 2
Axxle -- 3
Goober -- 1
O -- 7
I'm not necessarily in favor of killing the non-talkers, but if they don't start talking we should kill them.
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After a few games with me you'll realise that this is just the way I am.
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Obviously "respect" on this forum is little more than a codeword of "fear". The most feared people are the most likely to be mafia (and an admin mafia... dear god, who could possibly defeat that?)
So I only really see two possible outcomes:
1) Me and goober aren't mafia
2) You guys upvote this comment enough that I become 3rd or so in respect, and then I become mafia 8)
Also, @Axxle: It's statistically better for the village to lynch every night, and as we have no real information (except that Theory is obviously mafia), we may as well joke around. ("we" of course assuming you aren't Mafia.)
But if at least we use the semblance of reason, we might be able to go back in the thread and see who was accusing who and that might be the beginning of clues after the first lynch and kill
Except that never happens.
theory 1 9
Ozle 2
Thisisnotasmile 3
ftl 4
Robz888 5 0
Axxle 6
goober 7
Davio 8
I'll probably vote for whoever has the digit that this posts timestamp's second counter lands on.
Is the timestamp what you get when you quote the post? Then didn't you just set up TINAS for being voted seemingly randomly?
Oh wait... If it's second from the right then I guess it's random.
I should clarify: There are people who use a semblance of reason with their voting picks for the first round, Axxle.
Mafia
hmm... errr.... well... I think I'm getting where you're coming from. I'm not really a guy to do anything for no reason.
Ninja'd Edit:
Nah, not being defensive anymore. I'm happy to be lynched. I'm fine being randomly lynched as long as there is no REAL info going around because it means I can sit back and laugh at my team (read: town) for bringing it upon themselves for the rest of the game. And hey, chances are we are going to lynch one of our own, so may as well get rid of someone who doesn't have a power role. It could be worse, right?
Exactly! Unvote
I'm not necessarily in favor of killing the non-talkers, but if they don't start talking we should kill them.
I am very much in favor of killing non-talkers. If we take this policy it will make everyone talk more and give a lot more information for us.
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Nah, not being defensive anymore. I'm happy to be lynched. I'm fine being randomly lynched as long as there is no REAL info going around because it means I can sit back and laugh at my team (read: town) for bringing it upon themselves for the rest of the game. And hey, chances are we are going to lynch one of our own, so may as well get rid of someone who doesn't have a power role. It could be worse, right?
Everything you say is suspicious to me.
But as promised! Here is the number of posts people have made since Pops restarted the game.
Robz888 -- 10
Theory -- 3
TINAS -- 10
Ozle -- 10
Davio -- 2
Ftl -- 2
Axxle -- 3
Goober -- 1
O -- 7
I'm not necessarily in favor of killing the non-talkers, but if they don't start talking we should kill them.
Umm...looking at that list I am definately in favour of killing the non-talkers!
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In the Gardens there is a pond. You can skip coins across it with a good throw, but of course, the coppers skip farthest.
Vote Count
Still nothing
Note: Do not edit posts, no exceptions. If you need to add information to a previous post, double post.
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Nah, not being defensive anymore. I'm happy to be lynched. I'm fine being randomly lynched as long as there is no REAL info going around because it means I can sit back and laugh at my team (read: town) for bringing it upon themselves for the rest of the game. And hey, chances are we are going to lynch one of our own, so may as well get rid of someone who doesn't have a power role. It could be worse, right?
Woah. Hey. That's not something you should tell us, that you don't have a power role! Here is why:
Power role townies are more important to keep alive for the townies. Keeping them alive gives us a better chance of winning. We NEVER want to execute them. And in fact, if you are cop or something, and you are about to be lynched by the town, you should tell us and--assuming that your claim is credible--we should unvote you. This is a sucky situation, because obviously we don't want the mafia to know about you. But killing you ourselves is even worse.
By the same token, telling us that you do not have a power role helps the mafia deduce who does have the power roles, so it's not so good for us. It really isn't good for you either, because we would rather accidentally lynch a townie than accidentally lynch a power role townie.
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Just to clarify, does this day end early if everybody has voted a majority, so if 5 of us all of a sudden go for the same person in the next 5 minutes, then that auto ends the day? in which case I can see advantages for both voting early and late for either side!
And then once its night we cant talk to each other until the day phase right?
Yes, an early lynch ends the day. You can discuss until the mod gets to to the thread to announce the lynch, then you'll be silent through a 48 hour night.
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Note: Do not edit posts, no exceptions. If you need to add information to a previous post, double post.
To clarify I didn't actually edit, I changed the post a little after seeing someone posted between when I started making the post and I was about to post it.
Nah, not being defensive anymore. I'm happy to be lynched. I'm fine being randomly lynched as long as there is no REAL info going around because it means I can sit back and laugh at my team (read: town) for bringing it upon themselves for the rest of the game. And hey, chances are we are going to lynch one of our own, so may as well get rid of someone who doesn't have a power role. It could be worse, right?
Woah. Hey. That's not something you should tell us, that you don't have a power role! Here is why:
Power role townies are more important to keep alive for the townies. Keeping them alive gives us a better chance of winning. We NEVER want to execute them. And in fact, if you are cop or something, and you are about to be lynched by the town, you should tell us and--assuming that your claim is credible--we should unvote you. This is a sucky situation, because obviously we don't want the mafia to know about you. But killing you ourselves is even worse.
By the same token, telling us that you do not have a power role helps the mafia deduce who does have the power roles, so it's not so good for us. It really isn't good for you either, because we would rather accidentally lynch a townie than accidentally lynch a power role townie.
Oh! Missed this. Yeah, that wasn't a great move on your part TINAS. If you knew what Robz888 is saying when you made the comment that probably means you're mafia, but if you didn't know then that means the mafia just gained a slight edge. (actually, it might be a good decision if you actually do have a power role)
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Vote: TINAS
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It does seem a rather suspicious post on your part This, especially as you seem a bit of a pro at this, and even if your lying and not a Mafioso (which I believe is highly likely) then a non-powered townie is bit better than a power townie.
Vote: Thisisnotasmile
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Whoa! I didn't realize I had posted so little. But I guess a lot of discussion went down after I left for the night.
Current suspicions:
1) TINAS, for acting all shifty. First being wishy-washy about being mafia, then for talking about not being a power role and for acquiescing to his lynching.
2) O, for picking randomly. That only helps the Mafia. Take a stand! I mean, I know we have nothing to go on, but try to make something to go on by accusing someone. A random accusation like that doesn't even merit a substantive response. Oh no, you accused me because the random number generator landed on 4! Is anybody going to find that a convincing reason to go along with you?
3) Goober, for only having one post!
Vote: Goober
at least to make him respond. I might join on the TINAS bandwagon in a bit, but not yet.
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Okay, here is my analysis of TINAS, which seems to be where the wind is blowing:
He was one of the people I semi-jokingly accused. Axxle and ftl jumped on it a bit. To me, his reaction seemed very defensive. Of course, anyone can get defensive when they are accused. But mafia tend to be more incredulously defensive. So without much to go on anyway, that was basically enough for me to think TINAS is the prime suspect.
His declaration that he has no power role was... problematic. It's either a townie blunder, or a move by a mafia who thinks he needs to clear himself. We want to kill mafia, but keeping alive townie blunderers isn't our highest priority.
But to be fair to TINAS... he very well may not be mafia. You could see his actions as just a normal townie who sort of said some semi-wrong things, and it spiraled out of control. What does he do? He gets a little desperate.
Theory, you seemed confident enough about TINAS to cast that first vote. May I ask why? Would also really like to hear from the quiet people, because I don't want to overlook them. We can't incentivize the mafia to be quiet! We need them to pipe up and make mistakes.
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Maybe I made a blunder. Then again, maybe I didn't?
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I think we are too heavily overthinking this. The first lynch is mostly random and if we're gonna lynch someone and no one is suspiciously quiet, I will go with the one that is suspiciously loud.
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Be my guest. ;)
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The first lynch is mostly random and if we're gonna lynch someone and no one is suspiciously quiet, I will go with the one that is suspiciously loud.
Well, at the moment we do have goober being quiet, with only one post to his name; it was the third post since the new roles, in which he semi-jokingly accused the previous two posters, myself and Robz.
But it's not too suspiciously quiet, it's been less than a day since his last post.
I think we are too heavily overthinking this.
Definitely. But that's ok.
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Here's something else I was thinking. Let's say TINAS is mafia. I am about 30% confident of that (and like 0% confident for anyone else). Who would the other mafia be? So I looked at who denounced or voted against him. If TINAS is a dead man, his fellow mafia will of course vote to kill him, so as not to cast suspicion. But I seriously doubt that a mafia would be an initiator against a mafia or cast an early vote against him, especially in the first round. It could happen, but it would be a hugely advanced and complicated move. So if TINAS is mafia, here are the people who probably aren't:
theory, axxle, ozle, robz888
Ftl voiced suspicion of TINAS but also made a move against Goober, which actually reads to me like a mafia hedging his bets by agreeing with the consensus against his partner but also trying to direct to someone else. But he did make an early declaration against TINAS. So he's PROBABLY not mafia, though he if he is, he is doing so smartly.
Davio defended TINAS slightly, and has since been silent. So yeah.
Whoever the cop is (I acknowledge that this could be me), if you do suspect TINAS I think Davio, Goober, and O are logical targets for investigation. Ftl is in the middle for him. If you think the antiTINAS consensus is b.s., you should probably investigate me or axxle.
Okay, that's it for my over-analysis. I have to put down my pitchfork and do some real-life work. At this point I would vote for TINAS, but I am leaving open the door for new info.
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Not that it really matters because I am not mafia, but in this game's previous life (i.e. before the role shuffle), Davio was my mafia partner. You suspecting us two again just made me chuckle a bit inside.
I have no information on Davio for this game, however.
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Overthinking things? This is the dominion forum, everything ever posted here gets overanalysed to death!
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I would very much like to see what Davio and Goober think about what's happened so far.
I don't like that Robz is telling the cop what to do, it falls much too close to a Wine in Front of Me argument. The rest of his analysis is more or less agreeable though, although I'm only about 5% sure TINAS is mafia.
Yes theory, we probably are overthinking it, but I'd rather overthink it than underthink it :)
I think we're getting all the reaction we can out of TINAS with the current votes against him. I'm also going to Vote: Goober, where'd you go dude? You haven't had a large presence in the forums so we're even more in the dark about your playstyle/forum behavior.
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Davio defended TINAS slightly, and has since been silent. So yeah.
I defended Thisisnotasmile slightly, because I thought it was too early to draw any serious conclusions, but I guess that's always the case on the first day. My silence was due to Game of Thrones 2x7. I always watch it when my wife is doing her pregnancy yoga on Monday night. In a few weeks it's partner evening, oh joy.
I also don't randomly post when I have nothing to post.
My short analysis:
Thisisnotasmile seems like a likely candidate, because he's been zigging and zagging, but this can be just his natural excitement. And at this point you can't really tell if someone is bluffing, double bluffing or triple bluffing. Does he or doesn't he have a power role? If he doesn't, well, why did he say so? If he does, why did he bring it up in the first place?
As far as the others go: Goober has been silent, but he may have had some other real life activities like I had. Seriously, I don't check this forum every minute, just every hour. :) Silence is always a sure way to get yourself lynched though.
Theory, on the other hand, has been very short and firm in his posts. His comment about the first lynch being random bugged me. Instead of trying to actively find the mafiosi he points the finger at Thisisnotasmile, who a lot of you are already suspecting. Going with the group seems like a good idea if you don't want to stick out.
I'm heavily suspecting Theory at this point and need some heavy arguing to change my vote.
As for Thisisnotasmile's comment about us being mafia originally: We were indeed going to be Mafia before the reshuffle and I was excited and scared at the same time when I got the PM. And when I went to check it again, I got a new PM saying I was a townie. I stared at my screen with confusion for about 5 mins. Wait, what? I'm OK with it though, at least I get to be active in the beginning!
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Damnit, Davio is the only one I don't suspect at this moment in time! Couldn't you post something a bit suspicious at least!
I'm still thinking TINAS, summed up by Robz here
His declaration that he has no power role was... problematic. It's either a townie blunder, or a move by a mafia who thinks he needs to clear himself. We want to kill mafia, but keeping alive townie blunderers isn't our highest priority.
and his nonchelance at being lynched seems a bit too convienient.
So either he is a mafia protesting too much, or his is a powerless townie. But I am sure he has played before, and revealing he is a powerless townie seems a bit of a silly move for a pro, which only leaves mafia, or lying about being a power townie (perhaps to save himself form the real mafia? Is that a done thing). Either that or he has changed his mind and doesn't mind not playing?
Either that or I have been swayed by Axxles original vote, Theorys quick votes and Robz summing up in which case I may feel a bit foolish later on.
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The Duchess told everyone that pops left the house to her, and everything else should be divided among his friends. It will take a while to divide up his Warehouses though..
Vote Count
(2) Thisisnotasmile - theory, Ozle
(2) goober - Axxle, ftl
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I don't mind being lynched at this point in the game because then I don't feel like a traitor for then supporting the other team. If I'd actually had a chance at helping my team before I was killed I would feel much worse about doing so.
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And I demand a recount on that vote.
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I checked the page again, I don't see any error, unless the previous null votecount was also in error.
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Okay, well I see two votes for Goober.
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You got goober/Axxle the wrong way round
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Yeah... at the moment, Axxle and I have posted votes for goober, and theory and ozle have posted votes for Thisisnotasmile.
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You got goober/Axxle the wrong way round
Doh, meant FTL and goober.
yeah what he said above
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I believe ftl voted for goober, not goober voting for ftl.
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Davio's suspicion of theory is a little much. Also I still don't like all this mention of what roles we got before the mishap, it's distracting.
I'm also starting to find Ozle not very helpful. He's suspecting everyone and is a little too willing to jump on the bandwagon (lampshading it somewhat).
Overall though I think at this point it's looking like we might *have* to lynch TINAS. It seems safest. I won't change my vote just yet though since I don't want to accidentally give someone the chance to hammer him before we exhaust more possibilities.
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Gonna vote: Goober simply because it's about the only chance I have left of living. Despite my not-particularly-caring about death at this stage, I would still prefer to live.
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I see now. Though I listed Axxle's vote, the vote's distance all the way on the right made it hard to confirm totals.
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I see now. Though I listed Axxle's vote, the vote's distance all the way on the right made it hard to confirm totals.
Goober hasn't voted for ftl, but other than that it's right now.
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The Duchess told everyone that pops left the house to her, and everything else should be divided among his friends. It will take a while to divide up his Warehouses though..
Vote Count
(2) Thisisnotasmile - theory, Ozle
(2) goober - Axxle, ftl
(1) ftl - goober
Cant see where goober voted? Also, TINAS voted now
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Corrected.
Never modding again.
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Theory, on the other hand, has been very short and firm in his posts. His comment about the first lynch being random bugged me. Instead of trying to actively find the mafiosi he points the finger at Thisisnotasmile, who a lot of you are already suspecting. Going with the group seems like a good idea if you don't want to stick out.
I'm heavily suspecting Theory at this point and need some heavy arguing to change my vote.
My goal is not to keep all the townies alive. My goal is to eradicate the mafia before they get us all. If it takes a sacrificial lamb in the form of TINAS to draw out useful information (i.e., how everyone is reacting to it), then I am all for it.
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Guys, im off to bed (now in the unlikely event you wondered where I was)
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theory 1 9
Ozle 2
Thisisnotasmile 3
ftl 4
Robz888 5 0
Axxle 6
goober 7
Davio 8
I'll probably vote for whoever has the digit that this posts timestamp's second counter lands on.
As changing my vote from this would invariably make me a hot suspect, I think I have to vote for FTL.
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As changing my vote from this would invariably make me a hot suspect, I think I have to vote for FTL.
If you want it official you have to bold it
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My goal is not to keep all the townies alive. My goal is to eradicate the mafia before they get us all.
Correct, don't forget the object of the game.
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As changing my vote from this would invariably make me a hot suspect, I think I have to vote for FTL.
If you want it official you have to bold it
that noedit rule...
I vote for FTL
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Heh. So the accusation is formal now. Random number generator gives you an apparent 2/9ths chance of success, zero percent in reality since I'm a townie, not that y'all will believe my word, I wouldn't expect you to. I suppose since I've been formally accused, I should semi-formally defend myself, even from an accusation with literally nothing behind it, though there's not much else to say because the accusation was so bland.
But why would you want to make a publicly verifiable randomly generated vote like that? At the very least, if you were accusing me, you should have picked a reason, made me defend myself against something more substantive, hoping to set up for catching me in a lie or in non-townie reasoning. Random-number accusations seem like a way to talk and thus not be suspicious due to low post count/inactivity without actually committing to anything that could be used against you later.
My current suspicion list:
1) Goober, due to knowing nothing about him
2) TINAS, due to all the obvious bandwagon stuff.
3) O, due to explicitly random voting
...which is I guess what it was before, but nobody else has said anything that suspicious. Ozle and theory might be for the reasons listed before, by Robz and Davio... but nothing too incriminating...
Goober! What do you think about what's up!
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Heh. So the accusation is formal now. Random number generator gives you an apparent 2/9ths chance of success, zero percent in reality since I'm a townie, not that y'all will believe my word, I wouldn't expect you to. I suppose since I've been formally accused, I should semi-formally defend myself, even from an accusation with literally nothing behind it, though there's not much else to say because the accusation was so bland.
But why would you want to make a publicly verifiable randomly generated vote like that? At the very least, if you were accusing me, you should have picked a reason, made me defend myself against something more substantive, hoping to set up for catching me in a lie or in non-townie reasoning. Random-number accusations seem like a way to talk and thus not be suspicious due to low post count/inactivity without actually committing to anything that could be used against you later.
My current suspicion list:
1) Goober, due to knowing nothing about him
2) TINAS, due to all the obvious bandwagon stuff.
3) O, due to explicitly random voting
...which is I guess what it was before, but nobody else has said anything that suspicious. Ozle and theory might be for the reasons listed before, by Robz and Davio... but nothing too incriminating...
Goober! What do you think about what's up!
So you're saying I've done something to try to make myself less likely to be lynched?
I agree!
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Hm? I'm confused. Most of the things I said in that post were similar to what I'd said before, but with more exposition since you explicitly accused me with a bold vote. A bold vote which was still due to the time-based RNG, was it not? I didn't think you did anything to make yourself less likely to be lynched, Goober just moved up because I want to hear from him.
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O, voting purely and transparently randomly does nothing to add information to the game, nor does it really help us later determine whether you are a town or mafia. Trying not to get lynched isn't the object of the game is to kill the other team before your team gets killed. Playing safe lets the mafia systematically kill the townies.
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O, voting purely and transparently randomly does nothing to add information to the game, nor does it really help us later determine whether you are a town or mafia. Trying not to get lynched isn't the object of the game is to kill the other team before your team gets killed. Playing safe lets the mafia systematically kill the townies.
Yea, but directed votes are far more likely to fall victim to mafia persuasion, especially in the first round. I'm 80% confident TINAS is not mafia, simply because so many people have bandwagoned.
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Wow, this is just about the most active thread I've ever seen. And I've been called out several times already! My inactivity is due to not being able to post at work, so expect a similar pattern of inactivity during American work hours in the future. I'll try to contribute as much as I can though, as I agree that more talk is better (as long as it is meaningful talk). My read of things so far:
I don't get the moves by TINAS, but he has a bit of a combative nature as I recall from dominion-related threads, and to me the moves make so sense no matter his affiliation, so I'm not sure his behavior should be interpreted as particularly scummy. I'm a little suspicious of those who quickly jumped on the TINAS bandwagon though, as to me it doesn't make sense for the town to want to proceed to a lynching as fast as possible on day one, especially without having felt out all the players. I'm less suspicious of those who are voting for me, as it seems like just an effort to get me to respond, and not a serious desire to lynch early.
So I guess I am slightly suspicious of theory and even more so of ozle, as his vote made immediately after theory's seemed like a serious attempt to move towards a lynch rather than just applying pressure, and the logic behind it seems strange. If you don't buy his vanilla townie roleclaim, and think it is evidence that he is mafia, then why end by saying "a non-powered townie is better than a power townie". If you think he's lying, then you have no reason to think he's a vanilla townie, so this makes no sense. Granted you'd still want to lynch him, but this last little argument is invalid.
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I don't get the moves by TINAS, but he has a bit of a combative nature as I recall from dominion-related threads, and to me the moves make so sense no matter his affiliation, so I'm not sure his behavior should be interpreted as particularly scummy. I'm a little suspicious of those who quickly jumped on the TINAS bandwagon though, as to me it doesn't make sense for the town to want to proceed to a lynching as fast as possible on day one, especially without having felt out all the players. I'm less suspicious of those who are voting for me, as it seems like just an effort to get me to respond, and not a serious desire to lynch early.
So I guess I am slightly suspicious of theory and even more so of ozle, as his vote made immediately after theory's seemed like a serious attempt to move towards a lynch rather than just applying pressure, and the logic behind it seems strange. If you don't buy his vanilla townie roleclaim, and think it is evidence that he is mafia, then why end by saying "a non-powered townie is better than a power townie". If you think he's lying, then you have no reason to think he's a vanilla townie, so this makes no sense. Granted you'd still want to lynch him, but this last little argument is invalid.
I agree with much of this, though not all. I do think there is some good evidence against TINAS. His initial defensiveness, his role reveal, and his subsequent behavior and then going quiet reads mafia to me.
But I definitely agree with not wanting speed up the day phase. There is really no benefit to that for us. Which is why I have not cast a vote for TINAS, despite being the initial supporter of voting him, and I am still probably the most convinced person that he is mafia.
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Responding to O:
O/TINAS for mafia!
(Mostly joking...)
I see your point, but voting randomly just pushes day 1 back to day 0, though. If we vote randomly, then someone dies at night, and we're back to the same situation - no concrete information (unless the cop reveals), voting randomly. The aim of day 0 discussion is to rattle some cages, get someone (hopefully a mafia!) to act suspicious, and then to at least form some information about people's allegiances.
Wow, this is just about the most active thread I've ever seen. And I've been called out several times already! My inactivity is due to not being able to post at work, so expect a similar pattern of inactivity during American work hours in the future. I'll try to contribute as much as I can though, as I agree that more talk is better (as long as it is meaningful talk).
Seems reasonable. I think we all got really into the game really quickly, hence the activity and calling you out :)
Unvote
I suspect that it goober was mafia, he'd have just jumped on the TINAS bandwagon.
Or he's just good at this and bluffing :(
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I guess I would really like to hear TINAS defend himself again. My mind is far from made up, though if I had to, I would vote for him.
TINAS: Are you the mafia? Can you explain your behavior? And whom do you suspect?
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Now that's the kind of comments we're looking for, O. It's true that the bandwagon was looking full. What? Theory, Robz, me, Ozle, (TINAS, FTL and Davio have expressed suspicion to some extent). The only one that didn't really say anything about suspecting TINAS is you and goober. I'm not sure we can get a lot out of that, although I think it wouldn't be too wild to guess that there's a mafia or two in Theory, Robz, me, or Ozle.
As I type this goober also has posted that he sees something funny in TINAS's actions, but brings up a very valid point of TINAS being a little defensive and willful in the forum as a whole. With one post goober has really done well in encapsulating the current dynamic of the voting.
Unvote
I think the top of my list is TINAS, Ozle, Theory at the moment (TINAS for feeling mafiaish and Ozle/Theory for the terse, quick one/two vote). If TINAS is mafia O would be my top choice.
Also:
Vote: yuma :P
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I'm lost now and don't know who to vote for anymore :( besides the TINAS bandwagon.
I'll take a break from this thread for a bit.
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At the risk of sounding in cahoots, I agree with everything Axxle just said.
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Please do not post in this thread if you are not a living player in the game.
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SELECT * FROM Mafia
... No? darn!
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SELECT * FROM Mafia
... No? darn!
What? I don't get it.
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What? I don't get it.
Sorry, probably not the right forum for the joke. It's from the SQL programming language. I just reread an old XKCD comic where he made a similar joke.
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Come on! English major over here, man.
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So, not too much activity right now. That's a bummer, because I like to post stuff late at night. But I don't really have any new thoughts, I guess. When is our lynch deadline?
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Not for a while, but not much point delaying if nothing is being said, anyway. TINAS, Ozle, O are all suspicious to me for the reasons having been said before. I should put in my final vote, but I can't bring myself to decide. Maybe a bit later tonight.
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What? I don't get it.
Sorry, probably not the right forum for the joke. It's from the SQL programming language. I just reread an old XKCD comic where he made a similar joke.
Ah, Little Bobby Tables.
I don't have much to go on, but at this point I would like to vote Theory, just to move things along.
Maybe he likes to be the sacrificial lamb himself?
We can keep discussing and unvoting, but at some point a decision needs to be made.
Now it may seem a little suspicious that I'm suddenly so hasty, but that's just because I don't want to stay in purgatory forever.
Time to roll the die and see what comes up. Knowing I'm no Mafia, I still have about 25% to pick the right one. :p
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Okay, I would like to continue on, too. And I understand a lot of the motivation for suspecting theory. I suspect him, too.
Still, I would have to say that TINAS is the more suspicious character, for all those reason I've brought up before. What was weird about theory was his brief interjections and jumping on the bandwagon. But TINAS did a couple strange things if you ask me: his initial posts, his post-accusation posts, and of course, his blunder.
I have asked TINAS to defend himself, and invite theory to do the same. Once I hear from each of them, I am ready to make my decision.
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Axle, Theory and FTL are the three most suspect to me, at the end of today. I used complex psychological analysis in this.. or just random tells and hunches
Unsuspicious to me is Robz88.
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I didn't realise I was bandwagon jumping, I had clearly posted I was suspicious of TINA'S waaay before I actually voted.
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So I guess I am slightly suspicious of theory and even more so of ozle, as his vote made immediately after theory's seemed like a serious attempt to move towards a lynch rather than just applying pressure, and the logic behind it seems strange. If you don't buy his vanilla townie roleclaim, and think it is evidence that he is mafia, then why end by saying "a non-powered townie is better than a power townie". If you think he's lying, then you have no reason to think he's a vanilla townie, so this makes no sense. Granted you'd still want to lynch him, but this last little argument is invalid.
[/quote]
If I was sure he wasn't a mafia then I wouldn't vote for him, but out of all the people here I think he is most likely. And if I am wrong then at least we know we are not killing a power townie if we're wrong.
For example, if we go for you, you could be mafia, townie Or power townie. At this stage of the game that's good enough for me to go on cOupled with my earlier suspicions.
At this point the only ones Im not that suspicious of are Goober and Davio
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As I have already stated, I haven't acted strange at all. This is the way I am. Nobody has any information at the begining of a mafia game and random accusations fly. That's how it goes. And I like to joke around and have a bit of fun. You'll get it after a few games with me, and I completely understand if you don't get it now and want to lynch me for it. Go ahead, it's cool. But in the past, I've done some crazy stuff. I mean, I've claimed to be mafia with the first post of a game, survived the whole game because nobody believed me, and ended up winning... as mafia. When I had much more time on my hands than I do now, I invented the tactic of stalking the "currently online" list (as a mafia member) in the night phase, watching for people sending PMs. Great way to catch power roles right there. Hell, I've even stolen someone's identity on IRC and messaged other people about "who we should kill tonight", framing them to be lynched immeditaely. And I wasn't even mafia. I did it for laughs and man... it was hilarious.
But yeah, until you understand the way I play I might seem suspicious to you. I understand and as I've said, I'm more than happy to be lynched. It doesn't feel like a loss if I haven't had a chance to play. I've made a number of posts in this thread and I stand by everything I've said. If there's something that doesn't make sense to you then maybe I wasn't clear... or maybe you just don't understand... or maybe it's a combination of the two and hey, maybe there's a reason people post slightly cryptically in a game of mafia. It's a game of hidden information. You can try to put information out there to help your team mates but you can't be too open with it, there are bad guys out there too who have just as much access to that information. Not saying I've said anything purposefully cryptic in this game, but I'm just going to throw that out there for something for you guys to consider for the rest of this game and for future games.
And to answer to question of who I suspect... No idea. As I say, at this point in the game we have no information. We can read into things all we want but at the end of the day it's still going to be a pseudo random vote anyway. There's not really going to be anything out there to read anything real into, because nobody's stupid enough to give away their role before the game's even started. Having said that, we should totally lynch Theory for being an admin or Ozle for being so quick to jump on the bandwagon. Also they both voted for me. Total mafia tell.
And now that we've heard from Goober I am more than happy to unvote. That guy's pretty much cleared himself.
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A somewhat unrelated question: Which timezones are you all in? I'm on Central European Time, which is UTC+2 with DST (GMT+1).
If someone doesn't post for a couple of hours, it may well be because he's asleep! :o
When I wake up, there are always like two new pages! :D
BTW: Thisisnotasmile, if you're NOT mafia, you're probably number #1 on their hit list with your "I've played Mafia a gazillion times and know all the ins and outs" attitude. That being said, if you do survive this lynching round AND the night round, you're definitely Mafia. :P
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BST here. At work currently, but can sneak a few looks in during office hours.
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Vote: Thisisnotasmile
If that's the way you are, I don't think I like you.
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BST (GMT+1) for me.
And I am well aware that I COULD be top of a mafia hitlist. But hey, not really my fault that I was forced into giving away so much information. But then again, maybe I'm not a mafia target because maybe the mafia think they can get away with letting me live and convincing you lot to lynch me. Afterall, if I survive day and night, I'm 100% mafia right? So I'm going to be lynched then anyway. So why do mafia need to waste their night kill on me?
Who knows? Maybe they hadn't throught about the situation I just explained, Maybe they were thinking of killing me and now they're going to let me live because I've just helped them to understand that that's a damn good thing to do. Maybe they're not. This is mafia. People don't always do the most obvious thing, because man, that's pretty obvious and gives away information. If you do something different, that people weren't expecting, they'll think about it. And they won't understand it. And they'll be confused and do the wrong thing. Maybe you can even get the other side to help your side by confusing them enough. Maybe not. Who knows. Let's see.
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BTW: Thisisnotasmile, if you're NOT mafia, you're probably number #1 on their hit list with your "I've played Mafia a gazillion times and know all the ins and outs" attitude. That being said, if you do survive this lynching round AND the night round, you're definitely Mafia. :P
Nah, if he isn't Mafia, they might as well keep him alive to draw suspicion.
Besides, if THIS is how he plays:
Hell, I've even stolen someone's identity on IRC and messaged other people about "who we should kill tonight", framing them to be lynched immeditaely. And I wasn't even mafia. I did it for laughs and man... it was hilarious.
then he might as well be a mafia even if his role is officially townie.
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Note that the time I did that it was with a community of people who had all known each other online for 7 or 8 years, and I did so during the "no information at all" phase. It got people talking and got the game on the roll. And I had a laugh.
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Soo during the no information phase you made up fake information and fed it to your own teammates to make them lose and then you had a laugh.
And you're somehow posting this as a reason NOT to lynch you?
Got it.
At this point, you're either a mafia trying to desperately appear non-mafia by being confusing, or you're a townie deliberately sabotaging your own team by trying to get yourself lynched, because you really want to root for mafia but can't justify it while still alive...
Reiterating: Vote: Thisisnotasmile
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Not at all.
I repeat "I've made a number of posts in this thread and I stand by everything I've said. If there's something that doesn't make sense to you then maybe I wasn't clear... or maybe you just don't understand... or maybe it's a combination of the two and hey, maybe there's a reason people post slightly cryptically in a game of mafia. It's a game of hidden information. You can try to put information out there to help your team mates but you can't be too open with it, there are bad guys out there too who have just as much access to that information. Not saying I've said anything purposefully cryptic in this game, but I'm just going to throw that out there for something for you guys to consider for the rest of this game and for future games."
Please go ahead and lynch me. It's cool. It's your own problem though. Afterall, I'll be dead.
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And for the record, I don't think I'm a "pro" at mafia. Yes, I've played before, lots. But that's all. I don't play the same way as most, and that's cool. I don't claim that my way is the best way to play. Or the right way to play. OR anything like that. But there's no way I'm going to change who I am for a game on a forum. I'm giving hese examples of my past play to inform you guys. To help you to help yourselves when I'm involved. If you want to lynch me because of who I am, go for it. I'm still not going to change and I'm sill going to sign up for the next game. But if you just ignore my offerings to help you understand the things that I do, then you've only got yourselves to blame if and when your retalliations go horribly wrong (which may or may not be in this game. There will be many more I am sure).
Now, I'm off to work. I look forward to catching up when I get back. Should be interesting, I am sure.
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there are bad guys out there too who have just as much access to that information.
The bad guys pretty much have strictly more information than the good guys at this point; anything cryptic or unclear is to their benefit, not ours. And if being cryptic and confusing gets you killed, it's strictly against your team.
I suppose I could be wrong on that? We'll see post-game, I suppose.
So far, all you've done is made yourself look suspicious; you don't seem to care that you're letting down your team by doing that. Getting yourself killed hurts your team, especially if you're a townie and aren't deliberately taking suspicion for a partner.
Just letting you know, so you can help yourself, in this game and in future games; you've got only yourself to blame when you get lynched.
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Not really. It started with a random joking suspicion. Which is fine. That's how mafia games start. I jokingly brushed aside that suspicion which is what always comes next, but the fact that I didn't explicitly state something which would be pointless to state as it adds no information to the game whatsoever somehow puts a real suspicion on me. Whatever someone's got to be lynched. I accept that which is why I'm fine for that person to be me. I don't think it's the best idea in the world to lynch me, because I'm not mafia and it would be better to lynch mafia, but it's got to be someone.
To be honest, at this point I've pretty much said everything I have to say and I've definitely said everything I'm WILLING to say. I'm just gonna stay quiet(ish) for a while and let you guys make up your mind. It's all out in the open for you.
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The lady doth protest too much, methinks. *sharpens pitchfork*
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Okay, I am going to go ahead and register an official VOTE: THISISNOTASMILE. I believe that is the 5th vote, the kill vote, for TINAS. I feel comfortable doing so, because I can't really see myself ever voting for someone else this round.
To be frank, I'm not at all sure that TINAS is mafia, but... the repercussions of killing him if he is a townie seem less severe than for killing other people who may be townies. His self-professed erratic play-style could be good strategy in certain circumstances, but we pretty much have to hold that against him here. Also, I do think there is at least some chance he is mafia. I think he may have planned to play erratically regardless, and was quickly surprised and annoyed that this made him immediately suspicious. At no point has he really deflected my suspicions.
Oh, and a word on 'being suspicious.' The mafia want to leave in suspicious and active players. They want known or suspected innocents killed. If, for instance, the cop ever reveals himself and says, "X is not mafia," X will likely die in the night. The mafia need to keep uncertainty in the game. There are other considerations--sometimes they will go against this to kill someone when they know it will make us suspect someone else, specifically, as mafia--but this is a big one.
Therefore, I assume theory will survive the night.
I say all this so that doctors/jailkeepers/cops can plan accordingly.
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(flavor posts will use the most recent poster.)
Robz got lost in his gardeny Kingdom as he often does, and found himself between two of his Estates, each with a Garden out front. Just as he was about to despair, he spied a Haggler in the ally between the Hedges.
"Hello, my subject, I'd like to buy a Cellar; have it built under one of my Estates here."
"My liege, if I sell you a Cellar, I'm going to have to give you a Copper too, you understand?"
Robz cracked a smile. "Yes. That's the idea."
Vote Count
(4) Thisisnotasmile - theory, Ozle, Robz888, ftl
(1) ftl - O
(1) theory - Davio
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From this post, everyone has three strikes on editting posts accidentally, possibly with an extra strike for subsequent days.
If you use all your strikes, I'll have to kill you.
I don't like to be harsh, but I don't think it's that hard.
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Vote Count
(4) Thisisnotasmile - theory, Ozle, ftl, Robz888
(2) goober - Axxle, ftl
(1) ftl - O
You got Ftl voting twice there...
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Also, Davio has voted for Theory
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Never modding again.
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I thought the goober people unvoted goober? Ah well. My pockets are too stuffed with copper to even count. That Haggler made off with my finest Diadem...
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[META] Would switching to "All" or "Print" view make this easier on you, pops?
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I thought the goober people unvoted goober? Ah well. My pockets are too stuffed with copper to even count. That Haggler made off with my finest Diadem...
I think only TINAS took his vote back from Goober (which he says was made originally to try to save himself from being lynched, but then changed when he said he thought Goober was innocent. Not sure if theres anything in that, dont think so)
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Ahh no, i see Axxle too his back as well now! Darn no edit rule!
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A somewhat unrelated question: Which timezones are you all in? I'm on Central European Time, which is UTC+2 with DST (GMT+1).
If someone doesn't post for a couple of hours, it may well be because he's asleep! :o
When I wake up, there are always like two new pages! :D
BTW: Thisisnotasmile, if you're NOT mafia, you're probably number #1 on their hit list with your "I've played Mafia a gazillion times and know all the ins and outs" attitude. That being said, if you do survive this lynching round AND the night round, you're definitely Mafia. :P
1) PDT (UTC -7)
2) Saying that TINAS is definitely Mafia if he survives almost certainly guarantees that he will be nowhere near the top of the Mafia hitlist, since we'll just lynch him tomorrow.
I think we'll probably lynch TINAS today. I'm becoming ever more certain he's town though.
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A somewhat unrelated question: Which timezones are you all in? I'm on Central European Time, which is UTC+2 with DST (GMT+1).
If someone doesn't post for a couple of hours, it may well be because he's asleep! :o
When I wake up, there are always like two new pages! :D
BTW: Thisisnotasmile, if you're NOT mafia, you're probably number #1 on their hit list with your "I've played Mafia a gazillion times and know all the ins and outs" attitude. That being said, if you do survive this lynching round AND the night round, you're definitely Mafia. :P
1) PDT (UTC -7)
2) Saying that TINAS is definitely Mafia if he survives almost certainly guarantees that he will be nowhere near the top of the Mafia hitlist, since we'll just lynch him tomorrow.
I think we'll probably lynch TINAS today. I'm becoming ever more certain he's town though.
I didn't say he is definitely mafia if he survives. I said he is likely to survive because he is so suspicious.
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Looking forward to being lynched.
(With regards to edits, I only do it to fix typos, never actual content. I feel awkward about leaving typos around but will try to stop this if it really matters (not that it matter for me this game anyway))
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Looking forward to being lynched.
Why?
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At this point I'm looking forward to anyone being lynched, just because I'm anxious to get on with the next round or to be killed myself during the night. :(
If active and confusing players are good for the Mafia to leave around, I guess it doesn't bode well for the straightforward Townies. :-[
Maybe I need to implicate myself more: I like eating my wife's lasagne. :P ;D
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At this point I'm looking forward to anyone being lynched, just because I'm anxious to get on with the next round or to be killed myself during the night. :(
If active and confusing players are good for the Mafia to leave around, I guess it doesn't bode well for the straightforward Townies. :-[
Maybe I need to implicate myself more: I like eating my wife's lasagne. :P ;D
I have a good guess about who is going to die in the night, but I look forward to being totally wrong. Anyway, I invite the people who haven't voted yet to consider doing so. It's understandable to want to drag this out--there's no particular reason to hurry--but unless anyone wants to toss out new suspects or raise discussion points, don't know where we can go from here.
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Maybe I need to implicate myself more: I like eating my wife's lasagne. :P ;D
Nudge-nudge, wink-wink?
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A somewhat unrelated question: Which timezones are you all in? I'm on Central European Time, which is UTC+2 with DST (GMT+1).
If someone doesn't post for a couple of hours, it may well be because he's asleep! :o
When I wake up, there are always like two new pages! :D
BTW: Thisisnotasmile, if you're NOT mafia, you're probably number #1 on their hit list with your "I've played Mafia a gazillion times and know all the ins and outs" attitude. That being said, if you do survive this lynching round AND the night round, you're definitely Mafia. :P
1) PDT (UTC -7)
2) Saying that TINAS is definitely Mafia if he survives almost certainly guarantees that he will be nowhere near the top of the Mafia hitlist, since we'll just lynch him tomorrow.
I think we'll probably lynch TINAS today. I'm becoming ever more certain he's town though.
I didn't say he is definitely mafia if he survives. I said he is likely to survive because he is so suspicious.
I wasn't referring to you, I quoted Davio. Why so defensive?
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My mistake. I was looking at this thread on my phone.
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So the only votes outstanding at the moment are TINAS, goober, and Axxle.
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I'm going to vote for TINAS at the end of the day if nothing of note happens before then, too keep things moving. Just fair warning.
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I'm going to vote for TINAS at the end of the day if nothing of note happens before then, too keep things moving. Just fair warning.
*to keep things moving
End of the day is 6ish hours from now.
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Do you want me to just vote for myself?
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Do you want me to just vote for myself?
That would be hilarious! If you want to cast the deciding vote instead of me, go right ahead. Not till later though. I'd rather you not get lynched, but if we can't get past the suspicion on you we might as well move along.
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I've done it many times, but in this case I won't do it, because it's not the right thing to do. If you want me gone, you'll have to do it yourselves.
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Deadline is May 23rd. The roles reshuffled on May 13th, and I stipulated a 10 day deadline in the rules.
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So before Axxle's delayed hammer drops, I'd like to get a comment in. I've got a bit of an issue with Axxle's behavior thusfar, and upon re-reading the thread, I still have an issue with theory.
First, Axxle. I don't like the compliment you gave me back at post #150. Though of course I also think I "really did well" in posting, it seemed a little forced, like you were trying to endear yourself to a guy you know to be a townie. Did other people see that as odd, or am I just so self-depricating that I can't take a normal compliment for what it is? Furthermore, despite apparently liking at least some of my argument, you are back here about to hammer TINAS, which was basically what I was arguing against. You also seem to want to control the behavior of the town in general, complimenting me, telling O how to vote, posting a lot, with a mix of everything from pure jokes to serious analysis of what all roles in the game should do. Basically controlling the conversation, but always with the eventual outcome of promoting the TINAS bandwagon, even though you say you think he is town. I don't get it.
Now theory. Theory's post #177 ,"The lady doth protest too much, methinks. *sharpens pitchfork*" seems like the sort of thing someone says when they want to make a point in a not entirely serious way, so as not to seem like they are seriously attacking. You have also championed the quick lynch of TINAS with the following justifications, as best I can tell:
#106, apparently for his generally shifty behavior and townie rolecalim; I read it as a serious vote
#111, basically saying any mainly random vote is OK at this point, making your vote seem less serious
#135, saying lynching him as a sacrificial lamb to draw out information is a good idea, allowing you to distance yourself from an eventual reveal of TINAS as townie
#177, which I explained my read of above
Basically it really seems like you are driving this wagon, and are not entirely consistent in your stated motives for doing so.
So my current suspicions are axxle and theory, and I think we should maybe take a look at them if and when TINAS gets lynched, as they have both been promoting it heavily, but also distancing themselves from blame if he turns out to be a townie.
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Eh, don't think too much of the compliment. I agreed with it. You made a good post.
#135, saying lynching him as a sacrificial lamb to draw out information is a good idea, allowing you to distance yourself from an eventual reveal of TINAS as townie
Hmm, maybe I should clarify rules - do we find out whether we lynched a townie or a mafia? I thought it would stay secret, there wouldn't be a reveal of TINAS as a townie even if he was.
...I wish TINAS weren't acting so inscrutable. If he's a townie, he should be trying to prove it so he doesn't get lynched... Or maybe he's deliberately deflecting attention from the subtler mafias around.
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where by "I should clarify rules" I meant "I should ask for a rules clarification".
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Although I don't think TINAS is mafia, it's also the case that it feels like the town is having a lot of trouble looking past TINAS. We haven't had a good discussion since this morning. I think our best chance is to lynch him, hope he's mafia, but if not we'll at least see people's reactions and can start up discussion again.
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Also, I should say that although I liked your argument, it doesn't necessarily mean I agree with it in it's entirety. I like that you're noticing things I missed and bringing them up and drawing your own conclusions from it instead of following the pack. It gave you a big townie vibe, you're one of the frontrunners for being town.
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Oh, I thought we did get to see what they were, even if they were a power role townie. When we were signing up I browsed mafiascum.net and that is how it works over there
This made me go back and look at our rules though, and there are a few other odd circumstances that aren't totally clear to me.
1. Apparently we are allowed to talk before we get lynched but after the hammer. Are we allowed to make serious posts about the game, or just say "goodbye and good luck"? Could a lynched cop or jailer reveal intel at this point?
2. There seems to be a "random kill" clause for inept mafia. I assume that if one of them is jailed, they lose the random kill, or at least get only a 1/2 shot at it?
Care to clarify pops?
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1. Apparently we are allowed to talk before we get lynched but after the hammer. Are we allowed to make serious posts about the game, or just say "goodbye and good luck"? Could a lynched cop or jailer reveal intel at this point?
The way I understood was that the lynching "officially" happens when pops comes in and says it happens. If Axxle came in and voted TINAS right now, it wouldn't be up to us to tally the votes and say "OK TINAS is dead now no more talking", it would happen when pops says it happens, and up until that point TINAS could continue digging his grave and talking about how he doesn't care if he's lynched or about fun times when he screwed over his townie team for laughs.
2. There seems to be a "random kill" clause for inept mafia. I assume that if one of them is jailed, they lose the random kill, or at least get only a 1/2 shot at it?
Good question. I suspect it's not going to matter, everyone here is pretty responsive and so the mafias should be able to figure out a single PM.
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Axxle-
Of course you can agree with some of my thoughts and disagree with others. But while we're both active I'd like to press you a bit about this TINAS lynch. To me it doesn't seem like we've reached a dead end to the day and should just proceed to a lynch, though maybe that's just because all that "inactivity" happened while I wasn't watching. I'm curious what you think we'll learn from lynching TINAS before we see many other posts. I don't think we can get much from reactions after the fact, but that the real info comes from what was said BEFORE the lynch, in the form of who was piling on and who was defending. For example, as I tried to convey in may last post, it would add to my suspicions of you and theory if we lynch TINAS and he turns up town. And it seems to me like if he turns up mafia I would be suspected. What do you think we stand to learn from the lynch?
And for ftl, weird circumstance #1 was more for later in the game, when a power role townie may actually have something useful to say like factual information about what happened at night, I just wanted to clear it up now.
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...I wish TINAS weren't acting so inscrutable. If he's a townie, he should be trying to prove it so he doesn't get lynched... Or maybe he's deliberately deflecting attention from the subtler mafias around.
Lynching people because they play poorly is.. well... poor play, ironically.
I also find your desire for town's success a bit.. poorly acted.
I have very little doubt now that TINAS is not mafia. I think most people actually agree with me. I also plead for people to realize that a random lynching is NOT helpful if we're pretty confident that they're townie. I strongly urge others to consider going against the bandwagon, which is almost positively mafia fueled, meaning we're almost certainly lynching a townie.
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If the mafia fails to pm, the choice of who carries out the kill will be randomized.
Lynched and nightkilled players will have their alignments and roles revealed.
You can post anything during "twilight" after the lynch but before I officialize it. Claiming your role and claiming results is not "special posting" and is still allowed.
In case it wasn't clear, all players, not just the lynched player, can speak during twilight.
On that note, you are not to post anything at all once you are dead, not even "Bah go town" or "Bah".
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Ok, glad Diablo distracted me. I will not hammer TINAS at this moment in time. I'm glad people are coming around about that. I didn't want to be a liar.
My reads so far:
TINAS is probably town. Mafia has a good chance of being the voters since otherwise he would have gotten hammered quicker, i think.
O is definitely town. He was a lone voice in defending TINAS before goober chimed in (IIRC)
goober is most likely town. He has a level head and doesn't afraid of anything.
theory is my top pick for mafia, a little too much of a lynch-mongerer
Ozle is my second pick for mafia, too opportunistic
ftl's #205 inscrutable comment makes some red flags pop up that weren't there before, mostly since he has a vote on him already.
Robz888's #178 indicates that he thought he was hammering TINAS. It sounds like he has good reasons for doing so. I'm starting to think he's mafiaish too.
Davio is saying some things he probably shouldn't as a town. His comments about how suspicion of TINAS will affect the game if left alive is flawed, he might just not be familiar with certain aspects of the game but there that is. He's also anxious to get the day over with and someone lynched (I know, I know, I am too).
So...
Strong Mafia:
Theory
Ozle
Weak Mafia:
Robz
ftl
Weak town:
Davio
Mid town:
TINAS
Strong town:
goober
Certain town:
O
Ultimately, if no information is added at all, I'm fine with lynching anyone but goober and O.
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Actually bump TINAS up to Certain Town. The biggest reason I made a delayed vote was to see how people would react, and looking back at the thread TINAS seemed to genuinely not care if he was lynched or not even after I made my comment.
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Thanks for the clarifications pops, and thanks for modi'ing.
This rules discussion got me thinking, and I propose that we adopt the arrangement that we will NOT hammer a player before telling them it's about to happen (at least after the first night) and forcing them to respond with a roleclaim and all information they may have gathered with said role and/or final insights they think might be helpful even if they are just vanilla town. We then have two options:
We can just go ahead and lynch, and if they are who they said they were we at least learn all that they know and think. Even little stuff like a jailkeeper who has had two nights to detain folks and has yet to stop the nightkill or a cop who knows one person who is vanilla town would be of value. Obviously a dying cop shouldn't reveal a town power role as that just gets them night killed. As far as I can tell, this arrangement is a strict benefit to the town in every circumstance (over the surprise lynch scenario). It just gives us more information that we can then decide what to do with.
Alternatively, we can rethink the lynch based on what they role-claim, but then things get complicated and I think would have to be handled on a case by case basis, based on the surrounding circumstances. I would probably be of the opinion to just lynch anyway in most cases, as we probably voted for a lynch for good reason in the first place, but I'd be open to hearing arguments against this when the time comes.
The point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't EVER lynch anyone without forcing a role-claim and last words out of them. This also has the side benefit of allowing the about-to-die player a chance to say any pleasantries they deem appropriate before being silenced by pops. Does this make sense to others?
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Axxle, I just can't get my head around what you are doing. I don't get how yo can now call TINAS "Certain Town". We can all see that he was obviously acting suspiciously, it just seems that a majority of us thought this was not necessarily a scumtell. It certainly isn't a towntell as I see it. It's just erratic. Do you think his "go ahead and lynch" response to your impending hammer is a towntell? And if so could you explain your reasoning a little? I have to clarify one other thing with you as well, just so I have it straight, would you have hammered if no one had posted anything?
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Do you think his "go ahead and lynch" response to your impending hammer is a towntell?
Yes, if he was a town role or mafia I would think he would have tried to accuse someone else or delay his sentence. "Certain" is too strong a word, but strong words usually help to persuade people.
And if so could you explain your reasoning a little? I have to clarify one other thing with you as well, just so I have it straight, would you have hammered if no one had posted anything?
If noone including TINAS didn't post anything? yes. If TINAS posted? Not if I went back and reread what he said.
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Fair enough. I appreciate the direct responses, Axxle. We may just have different styles of arguing. I'm done for the night, but I'm excited to see what's posted tomorrow. It's frustrating to miss out on the main flurries of activity. Maybe in future games we can organize by availability schedules.
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ABOUT TINAS: I'm not sure when the consensus changed from "TINAS is most likely to be mafia" to "TINAS is no more suspicious than anyone else" and then on to "TINAS is the most innocent person to ever play the game."
I haven't changed my mind about TINAS, and I would be interested to know why others have. It seems to me he has behaved exactly like a mafia caught because of his not-so-great responses to off-the-fly accusations. I mean, we all agreed he was suspicious to begin with, right? That's why he got a few votes. And he hasn't in my view acquitted himself well since then. He offered to vote for himself when it looked decided, and then when Axxle took him up on that immediately, he declined to do so. To me, that looks like a desperate mafia trying to inject last minute doubt that he is actually mafia, "I'll just vote for myself." Then Axxle said, yeah sure go ahead. And he didn't.
And then he basically went very quiet. Everything he has said has incriminated himself, so now he is trying not talking. And it looks like that is working! Because people are moving on to other suspects.
The only thing that gives me real pause about TINAS is what goober said about him being sort of confrontational-ish in other threads, which is something I have observed.
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Actually bump TINAS up to Certain Town. The biggest reason I made a delayed vote was to see how people would react, and looking back at the thread TINAS seemed to genuinely not care if he was lynched or not even after I made my comment.
Axxle and I pretty clearly have similar strategic first-day styles. It makes me feel like he's more likely to be town, but he could also just be far better than I am at this game and pick this strategy even though he's mafia...
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ABOUT TINAS: I'm not sure when the consensus changed from "TINAS is most likely to be mafia" to "TINAS is no more suspicious than anyone else" and then on to "TINAS is the most innocent person to ever play the game."
[quote/]
It's a pretty basic rule of mafia: The first person to have a bandwagon vote against them is 90% of the time not mafia, barring obvious tells. And since we all are playing for the first time with eachother, it seems like we can pretty much rule out obvious tells..
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The point I'm trying to make is that we shouldn't EVER lynch anyone without forcing a role-claim and last words out of them. This also has the side benefit of allowing the about-to-die player a chance to say any pleasantries they deem appropriate before being silenced by pops. Does this make sense to others?
I believe I said this earlier (and I said it like 18 times in my other mafia game)--we must not lynch a power role townie, and if it is clear that we are about to do so, that townie should reveal his role so that we can take back the votes, assuming his claim is credible. This is not great, because we don't want the mafia to learn this, but it is preferable to killing that useful person ourselves. So I strongly, strongly, strongly agree with goober here, and I think I already said this.
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ABOUT TINAS: I'm not sure when the consensus changed from "TINAS is most likely to be mafia" to "TINAS is no more suspicious than anyone else" and then on to "TINAS is the most innocent person to ever play the game."
It's a pretty basic rule of mafia: The first person to have a bandwagon vote against them is 90% of the time not mafia, barring obvious tells. And since we all are playing for the first time with eachother, it seems like we can pretty much rule out obvious tells..
repost since I screwed up the quote box the first time and can't edit..
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Actually bump TINAS up to Certain Town. The biggest reason I made a delayed vote was to see how people would react, and looking back at the thread TINAS seemed to genuinely not care if he was lynched or not even after I made my comment.
I think he made an attempt to avoid being lynched, they just weren't very convincing attempts, so he shut up, and hey, that worked.
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Lynching people because they play poorly is.. well... poor play, ironically.
I also find your desire for town's success a bit.. poorly acted.
Poorly acted? Really?
Not acting, is truth.
TINAS has made no real effort to find out who's Mafia among the people accusing him. He's been defensive and unable to be straight and honest about anything. As far as I can tell TINAS hasn't really done anything that would mark him as Town. Axxle, what makes you so sure he's town?
As far as I can tell, TINAS is either mafia, or
Hell, I've even stolen someone's identity on IRC and messaged other people about "who we should kill tonight", framing them to be lynched immeditaely. And I wasn't even mafia. I did it for laughs and man... it was hilarious.
might as well be one.
Hey, maybe he's a townie pretending to be a Mafia pretending to be a townie! Well, if that's the case, he's got the first level of pretending right ;)
It's a pretty basic rule of mafia: The first person to have a bandwagon vote against them is 90% of the time not mafia,
90%? Are you sure it's 90% and not just a bit below 80%? ;)
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90%? Are you sure it's 90% and not just a bit below 80%? ;)
Well for you its 1/8, but we'll breach that issue later :).
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I'm sticking with Theory, who, according to his own words "reads every post ever made on the forum", but somehow can't find the time to react here or give us some more info.
Therefore my vote still stands.
My anxiousness to get the day over with and lynch someone already is just because I have this feeling we're going in circles. I would almost say "I don't even care who", but I do care about myself, I want to keep playing and I want to find the mafiosi.
I like having TINAS in the game because every post by him generates like six posts about that post. Of course the object of the game is to lynch mafiosi, but having him around and if he is Townie this may make it easier.
And maybe he's just playing us all as the Godfather, yet that's a risk I'm willing to take at this point. I think we can get more info from both townies and mafiosi with him around at this point. The time may come when he's overplayed his hand or we're all sick and tired of him, but for me this is not yet that time.
That being said I can see why you guys would vote for him and feel free to do so; I'm not defending him, I'm just giving my opinion on the matter. If you guys think we will have a better chance just whacking him, by all means, go ahead!
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I'm sticking with Theory, who, according to his own words "reads every post ever made on the forum", but somehow can't find the time to react here or give us some more info.
He's probably too busy writing the "Greatest Moments of Isotropic 2011" post.
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I stil can't see past TINAS, if he is not mafia then I really don't understand this game!
The almost asking for votes, and then offering to vote for himself even.
If he makes it through today then I reckon he'll get killed at nighttime anyway as otherwise he will have an air on invincibility about him for the lynching phases (which may be his plan) Which is nearly enough to make me change my vote, but not quite unless someone else does anything really suspicious
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Well I must say that I am (pleasantly) surprised to not be dead yet. Congrats town.
As I have said everything I want to say with regards to my role and defending myself, I won't add anything new here, but I will mention that when I do inevitably die (whether that be today or tonight), I demand that the rest of the town go back and re-read and seriously think about everything that Goober has said. He is a clever guy and has probably already done enough to win MVP for this game.
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I'm sticking with Theory, who, according to his own words "reads every post ever made on the forum", but somehow can't find the time to react here or give us some more info.
Therefore my vote still stands.
« Reply #228 on: Today at 02:25:35 am »
Plus, if prolonged absences and erratic posting were an indication of Mafia, the DominionStrategy front page would be the Godfather.
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As I was one of the first to vote against TINAS (and I am not ashamed or scared of announcing it), here's my long-winded explanation:
goober's post (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2540.msg40476#msg40476) nicely lays out my thought process through this lynch. Specifically:
#106, apparently for his generally shifty behavior and townie rolecalim; I read it as a serious vote
Exactly.
#111, basically saying any mainly random vote is OK at this point, making your vote seem less serious
#135, saying lynching him as a sacrificial lamb to draw out information is a good idea, allowing you to distance yourself from an eventual reveal of TINAS as townie
That's not exactly what I'm driving at. Certainly we can all agree that by spearheading a campaign against TINAS, we have also gained valuable information about various allegiances and alignments. Of course, I believe that TINAS is mafia and should be lynched. But even if we do not lynch him, the fact that we have launched a campaign against him has already brought to light a lot of interesting interactions. I am still 100% in favor of lynching TINAS, but my parallel goal (to draw out responses from the other players) has already proved fruitful.
#177, which I explained my read of above
Basically it really seems like you are driving this wagon, and are not entirely consistent in your stated motives for doing so.
The more detailed explanation: let's look at how TINAS responds to accusations of mafia.
I don't mind being lynched at this point in the game because then I don't feel like a traitor for then supporting the other team. If I'd actually had a chance at helping my team before I was killed I would feel much worse about doing so.
Despite my not-particularly-caring about death at this stage, I would still prefer to live.
And I am well aware that I COULD be top of a mafia hitlist. But hey, not really my fault that I was forced into giving away so much information. But then again, maybe I'm not a mafia target because maybe the mafia think they can get away with letting me live and convincing you lot to lynch me. Afterall, if I survive day and night, I'm 100% mafia right? So I'm going to be lynched then anyway. So why do mafia need to waste their night kill on me?
Who knows? Maybe they hadn't throught about the situation I just explained, Maybe they were thinking of killing me and now they're going to let me live because I've just helped them to understand that that's a damn good thing to do. Maybe they're not. This is mafia. People don't always do the most obvious thing, because man, that's pretty obvious and gives away information. If you do something different, that people weren't expecting, they'll think about it. And they won't understand it. And they'll be confused and do the wrong thing. Maybe you can even get the other side to help your side by confusing them enough. Maybe not. Who knows. Let's see.
Please go ahead and lynch me. It's cool. It's your own problem though. Afterall, I'll be dead.
To be honest, at this point I've pretty much said everything I have to say and I've definitely said everything I'm WILLING to say. I'm just gonna stay quiet(ish) for a while and let you guys make up your mind. It's all out in the open for you.
As I have said everything I want to say with regards to my role and defending myself, I won't add anything new here
Looking forward to being lynched.
Do you want me to just vote for myself?
I've done it many times, but in this case I won't do it, because it's not the right thing to do. If you want me gone, you'll have to do it yourselves.
TINAS tries really, really hard to seem like he doesn't care about being lynched. This is an atypical response for a townie about to be lynched. It's not how I would react, and it's not how any of you others would normally react either. He has no real interest in accusing anyone and is instead mostly acting shifty.
Note that if he actually didn't care, he could have voted for himself like he offered to. Instead, when his bluff was called, he backed down. This lends credence to the notion that his vote-for-himself ploy was not really out of indifference to death, but rather a desperate move to draw sympathy.
For whatever reason, we've suddenly turned into "TINAS is supremely innocent" without any supporting evidence. The fact that he didn't fakeclaim or roleclaim (in the middle of the night, British time) before Axxle's (silver) hammer is not conclusive considering how much we have been discussing it. I suggest that this change of heart is the product of mafia FUD rather than reality. I remain convinced of his guilt.
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TINAS reminds me of Gaius Baltar (http://en.battlestarwiki.org/wiki/Gaius_Baltar).
Seemingly clinically depressed and uncaring, but in the end selfpreservation is his highest goal.
His comments in the form of "I don't care if I'm lynched" may be his attempt to convince us NOT to lynch him and as a few have already switched votes multiple times, it seems like it's working.
If we're not lynching him, it will cost us 1, maybe 2 deaths before we get the chance again and is that a price we're willing to pay?
On the other hand: Some of the players are ever so happy to swing both ways like a palm tree in a hurricane. At one point they're blaming TINAS for everything but the rain and at other points they're defending him.
I'm neither convicting nor defending him, but his presence certainly makes things interesting.
Theory on the other hand, dismisses my accusations too lightly in my opinion and just continues his crusade against TINAS. I find this strange. I'm not blaming his absence for my vote, I'm blaming his dodging and misdirection.
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I get it. Not really caring about being the first to die when my team is at a 2-7 disadvantage is much more likely than not caring when my team is 7-2 up. That's just silly. Nobody WANTS to be killed, not even me, but I don't mind being killed if it's the best possible outcome for my team. In this community, I'm not prepared to force that disadvantage on my own team, no matter how slight, while there's still a chance of the vote being turned around against the mafia. I've done it before on my old forum many times, but this community is different and I respect that.
As for not pointing the finger at anybody myself, sorry, I've been too busy trying not to get stabbed in the face by everybody else.
I stand by my support of everything Goober has said, and in particular one comment, which I will now repeat just to make sure it is not missed:
Whoever is mafia, both members have already voted for me or else I would already have been hammered.
I know that at this point I could still be mafia in which case that's not true blah blah blah whatever. This is why I want you all to remember this statement for when I am dead, and my innocense is proven.
In light of this fact, and Theory's desperation for me to start pointing the finger myself, I am more than happy to vote: Theory.
Now, I must get back to work. Already late.
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Whoever is mafia, both members have already voted for me or else I would already have been hammered.
You know, I'm not sure this is the case. If a townie is quickly lynched early on, then it's pretty clear that the mafia were behind it. This is an instance where the primary target has not been lynched.
Let's think through it. Which of these 3 scenarios is most likely?
1. TINAS is mafia and has not been lynched because the mafia has not voted for him
2. TINAS is townie and has not been lynched although the mafia has voted for him
3. TINAS is townie and has not been lynched because the mafia has not voted for him
(Excluding the case that TINAS is mafia and the mafia voted for him, which is obviously out.)
3 is somewhat unlikely. If TINAS is townie, the mafia almost certainly would just jump on the bandwagon and get this over with. This is TINAS' point.
2 is much more likely than 3. But I consider it rare for mafia to spearhead a lynch mob this early in the game. They tend to prefer to wait around, and cast the final clinching votes against a townie lynch, letting the town do their dirty work.
I think 1 is more likely than either 2 or 3. In other words, I think it is more likely that TINAS is alive because the mafia have not voted, instead of the mafia having already committed to voting him.
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Yes. If you'd have read my post you would have seen that I dismissed the case that I am mafia because this all doesn't matter until I'm dead, and when I'm dead you will all know for certain that I am not mafia. Out of the cases left, by your own admittance, both mafia have already voted for me.
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But ... you're not dead.
After you die and reveal, the analysis changes dramatically. For now, the fact that you are still alive suggests that it is more likely that the mafia have not voted for you than the mafia have voted for you.
If you do get lynched, and you were innocent, then sure, let's look through the voting patterns on the assumption that the mafia voted to lynch you. But you've not been lynched, and it is important to draw whatever conclusions we can out of your continued existence.
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Well you've already drawn your conclusions, and I've drawn mine, clearly from a very different perspective, what with knowing my role and everything. That's cool. I expect to die today. If not today it will be very soon, and I'm simply pointing out, while I have the chance, what the rest of my team should be looking at when that time comes. I mean, it's great that you've used that to point out that everyone else should think that I'm mafia now before I am dead, but that still wasn't the point of my post and probably doesn't change many peoples' opinions since I am already mafia in a lot of peoples' eyes.
Congrats if you turn my point around into something else and actually manage to convince that one extra person that you need to vote for me. However, if and when you do manage that, and my role is revealed, you can expect a quick admin lynching to be on the cards.
Hope you're prepared. I am.
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So.... what's up, friends? There are people whose minds are not made up, I take it?
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Robz8888 has a Spice Merchant in his kingdom. Strangely though, he just pays the guy to stop selling spices and chop wood in his backyard.
Vote Count
(4) Thisisnotasmile - theory, Ozle, Robz888, ftl
(2) theory - Davio, Thisisnotasmile
(1) ftl - O
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I have to go to work, but might as well get my vote in so it's obvious where I stand at the moment: Vote: Theory.
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So that leaves Goober to vote for Theory and O to cast the deciding vote?
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I'm not sure why you assume goober is voting for me. He is suspicious of me, but he is also suspicious of someone that has now formally voted for me.
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At this point, unless something dramatic happens, either you or myself are going to be lynched. Goober is suspicious of you, and apparently not of me. I might not be right, but it looks to me like he'll vote for you.
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3. TINAS is townie and has not been lynched because the mafia has not voted for him
3 is also possible, because if the Mafia felt that TINAS would die even without their help, then they wouldn't need to put themselves on the suspicion list by voting for him. Just sayin'.
But, seriously, do people who haven't voted for TINAS have any explanation for what's going on with him?
OK, so one obvious explanation for TINAS's behavior is that he's Mafia, slipped up early, and is trying to do damage control. This is plausible, hence my vote.
What else could possibly be consistent with his behavior? Repeatedly claiming not to care, not even trying to claim anyone else as mafia, in general being deliberately confusing. My only alternate guess is that he's setting up his persona, deliberately acting weird so that in future games, he can do whatever he wants and not be suspicious, if here he turns out to be town after deliberately acting straight-up mafia.
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Currently the strongest feel that I have in the game is this: If Theory is mafia, TINAS is not. If TINAS is mafia then Theory is not. I know we'll get information if we lynch one of you. Although, we might get information if we lynch someone else too, I'm just not seeing anyone suggesting many other people. Some small hints at me from Goober, some small hints at ftl from O, may have missed others but no one else is taking the initiative and leading the mob to a different potential Goon. In no circumstance do I want to see a no lynch happen.
PEdit (Preview-edit): I see what FTL is saying now. TINAS really isn't doing any favors by not telling us his reads. Can you do this TINAS? You've made general statements on thinking that mafia is voting for you, but can you talk about specific people?
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Heh. Good luck with that.
The reason I switched to asking other people is 'cause TINAS said not muchof use, as far as I can tell. Well, until post #235. Hey, if he'd been talking like that since the start, maybe we wouldn't be suspicious of him! ...but he wasn't, as far as I can tell. Not sure whether that's an observation in his favor (he's finally acting townie!) or against him (trying different styles until he finally hits on one that seems townie).
(I suppose I do agree with your first-paragraph read, but with a lot less confidence. )
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@Theory: Resigning yourself to being lynched is not equivalent to "trying really hard to appear to not care".
@ Axxle: TINAS has pretty clearly communicated his reads IMO, but some people (Primarily FTL and Theory) have simply relentlessly repeated that TINAS is wishwashy and doesn't care, which Theory uses to claim he's mafia and FTL uses to claim he's bad anyways even if he's townie.
FTL and Theory are my two largest suspects at the moment. I voted for Ftl because the argument that we should lynch players who he personally thinks plays poorly, even if they more likely than others to not be mafia, is terrible. Either he's mafia or he's a terrible Mafia townie (note how I covered my own tracks; I said don't lynch bad players if they have a lower than average chance of being mafia, and I think ftl has a higher than average chance).
I've thought about Axxle; as Mafia, it would be a pretty large leap of faith (pretty risky play) to implicate me as townie if he were indeed mafia. Mafia don't really have that much use in forging allies like that, so Axxle is pretty low on my list on people who could be mafia.
So, in conclusion,
Top two suspects: Theory, Ftl
Somewhat suspicious: Robz888
90+% confidence range of town-status: Axxle, O (Shock), TINAS
Undecided: Goober, Ozle, Davio (All three of you need to speak more!)
I'm keeping my vote for FTL at the moment because I have roughly equal beliefs that Ftl and Theory are mafia, but I'd appreciate Theory more if he was townie than Ftl, whose playstyle just really bugs me if he's town.
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So the lynch of TINAS hasn't happened yet because Davio, Axxle, O, and myself all are refusing to drop the hammer. I've not wanted to do it because I thought it was a bit quick and I wanted a chance to rattle a couple cages before the day was done. I feel like at this point I've gotten my chance to do a bit of that, and might not get much more out of it today with us down to two real lynch candidates. I get the feel from Davio that he may have the same motivations for delaying. Axxle I still don't really get the reasoning for, but I think I've gotten what I can from him about this situation. O just made a post as I was writing this, and I guess he thinks TINAS is innocent, but I'm not convinced either way.
A few of you have made a point that I feel is a good one; that if we don't lynch TINAS for this, what are we going to lynch him for later? I don't like that his behavior is so erratic that I can't get a read on him. I like that he has sparked some revealing back-and-forth, but I'm a bit worried that if we keep him around (and then the mafia of course don't kill him) we will have a really awkward start to day 2, where we all feel like we still can't read him and now feel like we have to basically not even try. I envision another day of suspecting TINAS and having a hard time getting other discussions going. I also don't want to progress far in the game with a teammate that I don't feel I can have a meaningful discussion with. For these reasons, I say we just hammer him, and I'll do it after he gets his last words in unless someone else jumps in to make a real case for another player.
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Because bandwagoning gives people a worse read of you than the TINAS has given us? If you don't accept bandwagoning as evidence of Mafia than what reads have Theory, FTL and Robz888 given you other than "I vote for whoever is being voted on at the moment" (which is a TERRIBLE townie strategy and a ok-but-not-great mafia one.
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And I was so close. Go for it. I've said all I have to say, just keep it in mind once you know the truth.
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Sure bandwagoning can be read as mafia, but I think context matters. We can't just suspect whoever adds votes to suspicious players or we'll never lynch anyone. I think I was pretty specific in why I thought theory's aggression towards TINAS seems fishy, and if we lynch him and he flips town then I will continue to be suspicious of him. I've never been particularly suspicious of robz or ftl. I just think this TINAS situation has sort of run its course and we should move on.
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Sure bandwagoning can be read as mafia, but I think context matters. We can't just suspect whoever adds votes to suspicious players or we'll never lynch anyone. I think I was pretty specific in why I thought theory's aggression towards TINAS seems fishy, and if we lynch him and he flips town then I will continue to be suspicious of him. I've never been particularly suspicious of robz or ftl. I just think this TINAS situation has sort of run its course and we should move on.
You don't "move on" by lynching someone who is probably not mafia (more likely not to be than other characters).
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@ Axxle: TINAS has pretty clearly communicated his reads IMO
Yeah, I guess I can't force him to have reads he doesn't have. If I remember right, TINAS is 100% in support of goober, and believes that both mafia have voted for him, with suspicion mostly against theory. Is that right?
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OK, O, can you explain what in TINAS' posts makes you think he has to be town? And also, what we do on day 2 if he's still alive and still acting the same way, but we're likely down to 5 townies? This just seems like a bad situation to me, and I don't feel like I have any reason to think TINAS is more likely to be town (other than straight odds)
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Because bandwagoning gives people a worse read of you than the TINAS has given us? If you don't accept bandwagoning as evidence of Mafia than what reads have Theory, FTL and Robz888 given you other than "I vote for whoever is being voted on at the moment" (which is a TERRIBLE townie strategy and a ok-but-not-great mafia one.
Hey now, that's ridiculous. I accused TINAS early and often, for reasons I have made clear over and over again: he said weird things, made a blunder, got defensive, pretended to not care and offered to vote for himself, then didn't, then went mostly quiet. He reads like a mafia to me. I prefer to toss around accusations, rather than votes, so I waited to actually come down on him, but I made clear from very early on that I would do so.
So I certainly don't "vote for whoever is being voted on at the moment." Actually, that person seems to be Axxle, whom you neglected to mention here. He voted and unvoted both TINAS and goober.
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OK, O, can you explain what in TINAS' posts makes you think he has to be town? And also, what we do on day 2 if he's still alive and still acting the same way, but we're likely down to 5 townies? This just seems like a bad situation to me, and I don't feel like I have any reason to think TINAS is more likely to be town (other than straight odds)
Because given the rapid bandwagoning on him, it means that a Mafia member is more likely than not voting for him. Mafia have directed information the first round that townies don't, and thus can easily put their two votes together to sway the vote.
TINAS has not made a desperate accusation of another player (he has said he suspects mafia are voting for him, but has no gone on an all-out-offensive). That is often is characteristic of an accused mafia defending himself.
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Because bandwagoning gives people a worse read of you than the TINAS has given us? If you don't accept bandwagoning as evidence of Mafia than what reads have Theory, FTL and Robz888 given you other than "I vote for whoever is being voted on at the moment" (which is a TERRIBLE townie strategy and a ok-but-not-great mafia one.
Hey now, that's ridiculous. I accused TINAS early and often, for reasons I have made clear over and over again: he said weird things, made a blunder, got defensive, pretended to not care and offered to vote for himself, then didn't, then went mostly quiet. He reads like a mafia to me. I prefer to toss around accusations, rather than votes, so I waited to actually come down on him, but I made clear from very early on that I would do so.
So I certainly don't "vote for whoever is being voted on at the moment." Actually, that person seems to be Axxle, whom you neglected to mention here. He voted and unvoted both TINAS and goober.
You didn't "bandwagon", I was mentioning you as a voter. That's why you're less suspicious to me than the other two.
Axxle has basically implied (and so far I believe him) that he was accusing TINAS to draw out information. And he switched from TINAS to Theory, when TINAS was still by far the most popular candidate.
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So I certainly don't "vote for whoever is being voted on at the moment." Actually, that person seems to be Axxle, whom you neglected to mention here. He voted and unvoted both TINAS and goober.
I was the first one to actually vote for TINAS, as O said, primarily to get information from him and other players. He was the best candidate since people were already accusing him, but since they didn't vote for him I had to take the initiative. I voted for goober purely because he was not active, to spur him into responding. After he did so I happily unvoted for him. There was a point where I suspected TINAS, but that's passed for now.
As for TINAS being townie, you can't just look at what his behavior is, but also the behavior of everyone else. I feel like the players that voted for him have a little too much conviction.
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Hiya, on a train home now, been out.
Some interesting stuff here and some good work , but I still think TINAS is the most likely candidate until one of the rest of you comes out as more suspicious then ill change my vote and I don't think you have yet. As time goes on though I get let less suspicious of him, so his not being so active is working in his favour it seems!
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Ftl, whose playstyle just really bugs me if he's town.
Really? My playstyle bugs you more than, you know, the person who says he screws over his teammates for laughs?
OK, O, can you explain what in TINAS' posts makes you think he has to be town? And also, what we do on day 2 if he's still alive and still acting the same way, but we're likely down to 5 townies? This just seems like a bad situation to me, and I don't feel like I have any reason to think TINAS is more likely to be town (other than straight odds)
Because given the rapid bandwagoning on him, it means that a Mafia member is more likely than not voting for him. Mafia have directed information the first round that townies don't, and thus can easily put their two votes together to sway the vote.
TINAS has not made a desperate accusation of another player (he has said he suspects mafia are voting for him, but has no gone on an all-out-offensive). That is often is characteristic of an accused mafia defending himself.
Hm. Fine, Unvote. I am very likely to reconsider that later if I have a chance to drop the hammer on him, though. I have other suspicions now, but need to reread some old stuff to make sure and don't have time until later today for htat
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O, I don't disagree that there is likely a mafia or two on the early TINAS bandwagon if he is a townie. If fact I've said a couple times that I am suspicious of theory for exactly that. I would strengthen that suspicion if TINAS turns out to be a townie, and would consider it a legitimate starting point to apply pressure on day 2. Alternatively, we could go for theory right now, but if he's town, then what do we do about TINAS? We could also just wait for more people to create suspicion on themsleves, but why would anyone other than theory and TINAS make a spectacle of themselves at this point, when just lying low means we will almost surely eventually just lynch one either theory or TINAS?
Like most of us I'm getting a little frustrated with TINAS' comments, like "And I was so close. Go for it. I've said all I have to say, just keep it in mind once you know the truth." I mean, that's just not helpful and it seems to be the way most of his posts go. And now we are training him to just be silent to boot (though something tells me that wouldn't continue if he survives the day). I don't think I want to be dealing with his playstyle on day 2, day 3, and I can't see mafia killing him early on if he is town when he is obviously such a lightning rod for suspicion in the town. I think we should decide to kill him or let him live, but then with no carry-over suspicions of him moving forward or we won't be able to do anything but keep focusing on him and eventually kill him later. I don't think I can do that, so I'd like to just kill him now and move on.
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I repeat: It is not how annoying they are if they're townie
It is not how annoying they are if they're townie
It is not how annoying they are if they're townie.
I'd also like to defend TINA's actions in other game: False roleclaiming and other forms of trolling in Mafia are really, really fun, especially in in-person, hour-or-shorter games (in-person is the only form I've played before). It's not a cause for lynching him.
What the town should focus on really is SOLELY how likely a person is to be mafia. And if the townies among you get past your irrational dislike for his playstyle, you'll realize he's more likely than others to be townie due to the bandwagon.
To set an example, I'll change my vote from ftl to Vote:Theory. I think they're equally likely to be mafia and while I dislike FTL's playstyle, I realize my only chance of lynching one of these two is to vote for theory.
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I don't find TINAS annoying. I find him suspicious.
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I don't find TINAS annoying. I find him suspicious.
I don't really believe you.
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I don't find TINAS annoying. I find him suspicious.
Yes. "Annoying" is a strawman; I don't think any of us actually voting for TINAS are doing so because he's annoying. I'm voting for him because his actions do not correlate with that of a townie, as I dutifully explained on page 10.
I find it baffling that the two candidates for a lynch are the person that has been playing suspiciously and a person that is calling him out on it. I don't consider someone to be mafia because they lay out a clear case for their convictions and are firm in their beliefs; I consider someone mafia when they behave erratically, suspiciously, and out of character for a townie.
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Yes. "Annoying" is a strawman; I don't think any of us actually voting for TINAS are doing so because he's annoying.
Why don't you read Goober and Ftl's posts then?
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Unless I am mistaken that is 4 votes for theory. Just so so one can get away with an "accidental" lynch here.
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Unless I am mistaken that is 4 votes for theory. Just so so one can get away with an "accidental" lynch here.
Who cast the last two votes for him? Bandwagoners! They must be mafia!
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Unless I am mistaken that is 4 votes for theory. Just so so one can get away with an "accidental" lynch here.
Who cast the last two votes for him? Bandwagoners! They must be mafia!
Atrocious sarcasm when if you read my posts I had implicated both FTL and Theory, and that there are actually only 3 votes for theory. ;)
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Who cast the last two votes for him?
O and I. U have not though. :)
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Oops, 4 votes. Didn't remember axxle.
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Unless I am mistaken that is 4 votes for theory. Just so so one can get away with an "accidental" lynch here.
Who cast the last two votes for him? Bandwagoners! They must be mafia!
Atrocious sarcasm when if you read my posts I had implicated both FTL and Theory, and that there are actually only 3 votes for theory. ;)
There are 4 votes for theory. Don't get confused now!
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Unless I am mistaken that is 4 votes for theory. Just so so one can get away with an "accidental" lynch here.
Who cast the last two votes for him? Bandwagoners! They must be mafia!
Atrocious sarcasm when if you read my posts I had implicated both FTL and Theory, and that there are actually only 3 votes for theory. ;)
There are 4 votes for theory. Don't get confused now!
This is insane. There is little reason to suspect Theory and every reason to suspect TINAS. I can't believe this.
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This is insane. There is little reason to suspect Theory and every reason to suspect TINAS. I can't believe this.
"Every reason to suspect TINAS"
There's no well-articulated argument about why we should suspect TINAS, other than "he trolls and seems not to care if he dies", both of which are terrible arguments.
Campaign-drivers are more likely overall to be mafia than the general population. Thats my "little reason".
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There's no well-articulated argument about why we should suspect TINAS, other than "he trolls and seems not to care if he dies", both of which are terrible arguments.
This baffles me. Have you not been reading what I've said and what theory says? TINAS tried everything, and eventually offered to vote for himself. At this point he looked like a dead man. He was totally hoping that someone would say, "He would vote for himself? Can't be mafia!" Instead, Axxle told him to go ahead and do it.
And then he didn't.
It reads desperate mafia gambit to me.
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There's no well-articulated argument about why we should suspect TINAS, other than "he trolls and seems not to care if he dies", both of which are terrible arguments.
This baffles me. Have you not been reading what I've said and what theory says? TINAS tried everything, and eventually offered to vote for himself. At this point he looked like a dead man. He was totally hoping that someone would say, "He would vote for himself? Can't be mafia!" Instead, Axxle told him to go ahead and do it.
And then he didn't.
It reads desperate mafia gambit to me.
...And you honestly think that wasn't said to just be ironic/sarcastic, a remark on how he felt condemned like a day into discussion?
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There's no well-articulated argument about why we should suspect TINAS, other than "he trolls and seems not to care if he dies", both of which are terrible arguments.
This baffles me. Have you not been reading what I've said and what theory says? TINAS tried everything, and eventually offered to vote for himself. At this point he looked like a dead man. He was totally hoping that someone would say, "He would vote for himself? Can't be mafia!" Instead, Axxle told him to go ahead and do it.
And then he didn't.
It reads desperate mafia gambit to me.
...And you honestly think that wasn't said to just be ironic/sarcastic, a remark on how he felt condemned like a day into discussion?
No, I think it was a strategic move to desperately try to save himself.
I guess you're the one who thinks he "he trolls and seems not to care if he dies."
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There's no well-articulated argument about why we should suspect TINAS, other than "he trolls and seems not to care if he dies", both of which are terrible arguments.
This baffles me. Have you not been reading what I've said and what theory says? TINAS tried everything, and eventually offered to vote for himself. At this point he looked like a dead man. He was totally hoping that someone would say, "He would vote for himself? Can't be mafia!" Instead, Axxle told him to go ahead and do it.
And then he didn't.
It reads desperate mafia gambit to me.
...And you honestly think that wasn't said to just be ironic/sarcastic, a remark on how he felt condemned like a day into discussion?
No, I think it was a strategic move to desperately try to save himself.
I guess you're the one who thinks he "he trolls and seems not to care if he dies."
I'm in that camp too, otherwise he'd be hammered right about now.
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There's no well-articulated argument about why we should suspect TINAS, other than "he trolls and seems not to care if he dies", both of which are terrible arguments.
This baffles me. Have you not been reading what I've said and what theory says? TINAS tried everything, and eventually offered to vote for himself. At this point he looked like a dead man. He was totally hoping that someone would say, "He would vote for himself? Can't be mafia!" Instead, Axxle told him to go ahead and do it.
And then he didn't.
It reads desperate mafia gambit to me.
...And you honestly think that wasn't said to just be ironic/sarcastic, a remark on how he felt condemned like a day into discussion?
No, I think it was a strategic move to desperately try to save himself.
I guess you're the one who thinks he "he trolls and seems not to care if he dies."
He wasn't trolling. He was being sarcastic. And quoting me paraphrasing other people is inanely stupid in any form of debate, even mafia.
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There's no well-articulated argument about why we should suspect TINAS, other than "he trolls and seems not to care if he dies", both of which are terrible arguments.
This baffles me. Have you not been reading what I've said and what theory says? TINAS tried everything, and eventually offered to vote for himself. At this point he looked like a dead man. He was totally hoping that someone would say, "He would vote for himself? Can't be mafia!" Instead, Axxle told him to go ahead and do it.
And then he didn't.
It reads desperate mafia gambit to me.
...And you honestly think that wasn't said to just be ironic/sarcastic, a remark on how he felt condemned like a day into discussion?
No, I think it was a strategic move to desperately try to save himself.
I guess you're the one who thinks he "he trolls and seems not to care if he dies."
He wasn't trolling. He was being sarcastic. And quoting me paraphrasing other people is inanely stupid in any form of debate, even mafia.
You were saying that the people who voted for TINAS did so out of no real conviction that he was mafia, just that was trolling and not caring and it annoyed us. I am trying to explain the serious and strategic reasons for why I think TINAS is mafia. And I was pointing out that you are the one giving TINAS no credit... not me, an accuser of TINAS.
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You were saying that the people who voted for TINAS did so out of no real conviction that he was mafia, just that was trolling and not caring and it annoyed us. I am trying to explain the serious and strategic reasons for why I think TINAS is mafia. And I was pointing out that you are the one giving TINAS no credit... not me, an accuser of TINAS.
I'm not giving him no credit. I see no evidence of trolling, and pretty much only reasonable posts.
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Whenever 0 goes out to eat, he pays in nothing but Copper. He is an irritating patron.
Vote Count
(4) theory - Davio, Thisisnotasmile, O, Axxle
(3) Thisisnotasmile - theory, Ozle, Robz888
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I'll change my vote from ftl to Vote:Theory.
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Hm. Fine, Unvote.
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Hm. Fine, Unvote. I am very likely to reconsider that later if I have a chance to drop the hammer on him, though. I have other suspicions now, but need to reread some old stuff to make sure and don't have time until later today for htat
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Fixed.
I advise everyone to read this thread, since I prefer that to half of you doing so and half of you not doing so:
http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2576.msg40781#new
Mafia I was discussed a bit more than I'd like to happen outside this thread in the future.
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For those of you reading this thread and fighting urges to post in it, a spectator quicktopic is now available. PM me for a link to a quicktopic where you can discuss the goings on of this game with fellow DSers and perhaps me.
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Okay, let's think about this. If theory is mafia, the other mafia has to be someone who is not currently voting for him. It's been a slow growth of votes for theory, and it seems crazy that theory's fellow mafia would get on the bandwagon against his partner when until very recently, lynching TINAS instead was almost a foregone conclusion.
So if you do believe theory is mafia, you would be required to believe that the other mafia is Ozle, ftl, Goober, or me. Right now, me and Ozle are the only people (along with theory) actively voting or TINAS, so we are likelier candidates.
However, I don't believe theory and Ozle could both be mafia. Theory voted TINAS and Ozle did so the very next post. For mafia to do that, it would be such transparent bandwagoning... there's no way they would actually do that, unless they were huge, huge, huge amateurs. So I don't see how it's possible.
Theory and Ozle were the first people to get on my TINAS bandwagon after Axxle, so again, I find it hard to believe that two of the three of us would be mafia, and would play so boldly and bandwagon-y against TINAS.
Also, I just don't suspect Goober. I just don't.
So in my view, theory and ftl would be the only logical mafia pair, if you believe theory is mafia. Which I don't.
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What the hell? Seriously, how hard is it for people to control themselves? I am VERY against there being a semi-public discussion thread about this game. And I'm a little pissed that people in this game had been a part of one, especially without mentioning it here. Reading the posts it doesn't look like it was done with bad intent, but that is the sort of thing you mention to the people in the real thread as it is clearly a grey area at the very least. I think we should have the rule that there is NO commenting about this game anywhere other than this thread, and not by anyone other than alive players and the mod. Is that so hard? Let us have our fun and if you want to have some of your own go start another game. Wouldn't it be more fun to play than to watch and comment anyway? Mod'ing isn't THAT hard (no offense pops, and thanks for the heads up about this other thread). We can all discuss the ins and outs of what happened when the game is officially over, but until then, this semi-public sister thread can do no good for this game.
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The quicktopic is offsite, I don't see concern about it being semipublic. A spectator could pm a link to a player, but I'd trust the player to delete it the way I trust the mafia not to pm eachother right now.
I think I did mention the rule about out of thread discussion, but I'll check the rules to see..
It's a rule, as of now.
EDIT: #5 needs interpretation to forbid it, but it seems clear enough.
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Okay, let's think about this. If theory is mafia, the other mafia has to be someone who is not currently voting for him. It's been a slow growth of votes for theory, and it seems crazy that theory's fellow mafia would get on the bandwagon against his partner when until very recently, lynching TINAS instead was almost a foregone conclusion.
So if you do believe theory is mafia, you would be required to believe that the other mafia is Ozle, ftl, Goober, or me. Right now, me and Ozle are the only people (along with theory) actively voting or TINAS, so we are likelier candidates.
However, I don't believe theory and Ozle could both be mafia. Theory voted TINAS and Ozle did so the very next post. For mafia to do that, it would be such transparent bandwagoning... there's no way they would actually do that, unless they were huge, huge, huge amateurs. So I don't see how it's possible.
Theory and Ozle were the first people to get on my TINAS bandwagon after Axxle, so again, I find it hard to believe that two of the three of us would be mafia, and would play so boldly and bandwagon-y against TINAS.
Also, I just don't suspect Goober. I just don't.
So in my view, theory and ftl would be the only logical mafia pair, if you believe theory is mafia. Which I don't.
And whose the logical counterpart to TINAS? Me or Axxle?
My rankings, reiterated:
Ftl
Theory
Robz888
Goober
<insert player whose name I forgot here>
Davio
Axxle
TINAS
O
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Okay, let's think about this. If theory is mafia, the other mafia has to be someone who is not currently voting for him. It's been a slow growth of votes for theory, and it seems crazy that theory's fellow mafia would get on the bandwagon against his partner when until very recently, lynching TINAS instead was almost a foregone conclusion.
So if you do believe theory is mafia, you would be required to believe that the other mafia is Ozle, ftl, Goober, or me. Right now, me and Ozle are the only people (along with theory) actively voting or TINAS, so we are likelier candidates.
However, I don't believe theory and Ozle could both be mafia. Theory voted TINAS and Ozle did so the very next post. For mafia to do that, it would be such transparent bandwagoning... there's no way they would actually do that, unless they were huge, huge, huge amateurs. So I don't see how it's possible.
Theory and Ozle were the first people to get on my TINAS bandwagon after Axxle, so again, I find it hard to believe that two of the three of us would be mafia, and would play so boldly and bandwagon-y against TINAS.
Also, I just don't suspect Goober. I just don't.
So in my view, theory and ftl would be the only logical mafia pair, if you believe theory is mafia. Which I don't.
And whose the logical counterpart to TINAS? Me or Axxle?
My rankings, reiterated:
Ftl
Theory
Robz888
Goober
<insert player whose name I forgot here>
Davio
Axxle
TINAS
O
Or Davio.
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I just went back and reread the thread from the start, from the moment we got new roles. Everything looks different with fresh eyes.
Of course, it just ends up being more confusing and I no longer have any idea who to vote for :( I'm not very good at this.
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Sure there is already a certain degree of trust in each others sportsmanship here, but I don't think that's really an argument for creating additional temptation and opportunity to cheat. And I assume illegal PM's would be visible to someone like theory if he goes back to look after the game. In this quicktopic, is anything stopping a player from making a fake account or using an existing alternate account and reading the topic? I mean this creates the opportunity for a SINGLE player to cheat, which is more likely than two people collaborating to cheat with PM's. I'm sure this sounds paranoid, but I just see this whole quicktopic situation as creating an unnecessary potential problem. It sounds like I'm being overruled here by pops, which is fine. That's his prerogative as mod. I just wanted a chance to air my opinion, and I'm fine with dropping it there. Back to the actual game...
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Sure there is already a certain degree of trust in each others sportsmanship here, but I don't think that's really an argument for creating additional temptation and opportunity to cheat. And I assume illegal PM's would be visible to someone like theory if he goes back to look after the game. In this quicktopic, is anything stopping a player from making a fake account or using an existing alternate account and reading the topic? I mean this creates the opportunity for a SINGLE player to cheat, which is more likely than two people collaborating to cheat with PM's. I'm sure this sounds paranoid, but I just see this whole quicktopic situation as creating an unnecessary potential problem. It sounds like I'm being overruled here by pops, which is fine. That's his prerogative as mod. I just wanted a chance to air my opinion, and I'm fine with dropping it there. Back to the actual game...
Whats to stop a cop from PMing someone who he inspected or something similar currently? Mafia is inherently based on having a shred of respect for your opponents.. I assume that in my real life games nobody peeks at night.
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It's common practice on mafiascum, and it rarely causes issues. I have a high opinion of this community.
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Well for one I would think most people would just call him out immediately and we'd start the game over. This situation is different in that the cheater doesn't need an in-game partner to gain an advantage.
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I think this is a better discussion to be had in that Mafia thread
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No, it's appropriate in this thread. This is specifically about me creating a QT for spectators of this thread.
I'm doing so, goober's complaint is noted, I'm not going to discuss it further, but if others wish to do so they should do it here.
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OK pops, like I said I can see this argument is over and I have lost. Can I ask that it be made clear in the sister thread not that it is not to contain any factual information about the game (like if an observer happens to know someone in the game and knows what they know)?
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OK pops, like I said I can see this argument is over and I have lost. Can I ask that it be made clear in the sister thread not that it is not to contain any factual information about the game (like if an observer happens to know someone in the game and knows what they know)?
I'm pretty sure we've all kept mum there. My brother is on F.DS and I haven't told him my role (not that he's asked, or even seen this thread..)
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The QT already complies with your request, goober, that's what it says in the first post.
As a compromise, I'll restrict QT links to people with a reasonable amount of onsite presence.
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OK, appreciate it pops.
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For the record, I cannot see anyone's PMs on this site. Private messages are private.
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Campaign-drivers are more likely overall to be mafia than the general population. Thats my "little reason".
I find this statement to be astonishing as well as deeply ironic.
The fact that you lobby for lynching me does not, itself, imply to me that you are Mafia. I assume and expect all of my fellow townies to share my zeal in hunting down those that they suspect of being Mafia. If we fall into the trap of suspecting anyone who is firm in their convictions, then it will prove very difficult to successfully lynch the mafia members infiltrating our town.
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Campaign-drivers are more likely overall to be mafia than the general population. Thats my "little reason".
I find this statement to be astonishing as well as deeply ironic.
The fact that you lobby for lynching me does not, itself, imply to me that you are Mafia. I assume and expect all of my fellow townies to share my zeal in hunting down those that they suspect of being Mafia. If we fall into the trap of suspecting anyone who is firm in their convictions, then it will prove very difficult to successfully lynch the mafia members infiltrating our town.
I meant first round campaign. And I did not lobby for lynching you originally.
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At the risk of sounding information-not-analysis, just thinking through reasons to be suspicious of various people:
TINAS: Suspicious because: claiming to be ok with being lynched, roleclaiming vanilla townie, being confusing. Unsuspicious because: maybe he's just a troll. And eh, it's just words, there were no suspicious accusations or associations, getting reads on people is harder than it seems I think...
Theory: Suspicious because: spearheaded a campaign against TINAS, including seriously wanting it to end quickly and lynchingly. Unsuspicious because: it was a campaign against TINAS, and it seemed pretty honest I guess?
Ozle: Suspicious because: made Rob's accusations of TINAS and Theory's vote against TINAS into a real bandwagon by adding in a second vote, with pretty specious reasoning at the time. Unsuspicious because: Well, I reread a lot of his posts, and they seem very similar to what goes through my head, and he claimed to be a newbie and I haven't played much IRL and no forum mafia, so this behavior/talk seem pretty consistent with "newbie townie".
Davio: Suspicious because: not that many posts to go on? Unsuspicious because: Didn't he start redirecting attention from TINAS to Theory? Unless him and TINAS are in cahoots.
O: Suspicious because: He spent a while voting purely, transparently randomly... and I'm not sure whether he ever stopped, considering I'm his top suspect ever since his post came up ending with the digit '4' which landed on me. And then trying to justify that as sincere? Also, his ranking seems strange - basically everyone who's had strong convictions and accusations is high on the list, whereas people who haven't are low on it? Not suspicious because: ...not sure, actually. Because he didn't vote for TINAS?
Robz: Well, he's been very straightforward so far. He believes he had a read on TINAS and has been in favor of lynching him all along, never deviating. Perhaps a suspicious amount of confidence for a townie?
Honorable mentions to:
Popsofctown: he died first, but maybe he's coming back as a zombie to kill us all? You never know.
Me: ...right, not filling this one in, someone else can if they think I'm suspicious enough to warrant it.
...I tried to make suspicion rankings like Robz or O, but I'm being too uncertain at the moment.
TINAS, Theory, O are probably near the top.
Davio, Ozle, Robz afterwards.
Goober, Axxle, and ME unsuspicious.
Still don't feel comfortable voting for someone :( Maybe I'll vote theory later tonight or something.
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ftl-
I would certainly consider your post to be analysis as well as information and I think a summary style post like this is order when we sort of pause like this anyway. And I'm also glad someone got this thing back on track after I derailed it with my paranoid rantings about the observer discussion. I think we are still on 4 votes for theory. Please don't hammer him abruptly thinking you are just pressuring.
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So this post is mainly directed at ftl and Davio:
It looks like its just us abstaining at this point, and battle lines have been drawn between theory and TINAS. Do either of you guys have suspicions about other players that you want to get out there? I think now is the time to hear it. ftl, it sounds like you are kind of bouncing around a bit right now. It's great that you are thinking about everybody, and I'd love to hear a real case against a non-TINAS/theory player if you've got one brewing. Davio, it seems like we mainly miss each other online, but I get the impression you and I are thinking about this situation pretty similarly, with the obvious suspicion/dislike of TINAS but also some suspicion of his early accusers, with not much of a read on the other players. Is that correct?
Anyway, I'm thinking the other players are mainly sticking with their votes and it's going to be up to us to decide who we want to lynch. If that's the case, I think it should be TINAS, for reasons I expounded in #263. What do you guys think?
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Oh, I'm entirely bouncing around right now, not just a little. Life was simple when it was clear that TINAS was mafia and that was it.
But I can see the argument for Theory (some of which, by extension, also hits Ozle since he was next on the votes in the bandwagon.) And I know some of my dislike for TINAS is because of that quote which I won't bother reposting, which in my mind is a capital crime like talking in movie theaters or cheating. And, as you point out, not much of a read on anyone else. You and Axxle and Robz seem legit, but my intuition in this ain't worth much.
Ima go google and see whether anyone has collected any stats on mafia, maybe there's an uncivilized barbarian of statistics somewhere out there that's got something useful to give me something more objective than just hunches. Doubt it, but worth a shot.
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Can someone explain to me what the totality of the argument against theory is? It seems thin to me. Looks like all he did was get on the TINAS bandwagon quickly, and as I've said, there was good reason to get on that bandwagon. Why does it read opportunism, rather than sincerity, to you guys?
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Speaking only for myself, but the reason Iam voting for Theory, other than the fact that he is one of the peole to have voted for me, is the way in which he has done so. Most people who have voted for me have at least taken the way that I am and act and somehow twisted that into meaning I am suspicious and therefore mafia. That's fine. That's the game. Theory hasn't though. See, first of all, his lynch post in it's entirety containing full and clear reasoning to back up his vote:
Vote: TINAS
Yeah.
Second of all, I present his willingness to kill anyone simply to draw out information:
Theory, on the other hand, has been very short and firm in his posts. His comment about the first lynch being random bugged me. Instead of trying to actively find the mafiosi he points the finger at Thisisnotasmile, who a lot of you are already suspecting. Going with the group seems like a good idea if you don't want to stick out.
I'm heavily suspecting Theory at this point and need some heavy arguing to change my vote.
My goal is not to keep all the townies alive. My goal is to eradicate the mafia before they get us all. If it takes a sacrificial lamb in the form of TINAS to draw out useful information (i.e., how everyone is reacting to it), then I am all for it.
I mean yeah, killing me will draw out information. So will killing anyone. That's how mafia works. I accept that chances are we're going to kill a town member today (statistically) and in such a case, we need a sacrificial lamb. But why me? I mean, everyone else has given their reasons, but Theory hasn't. He just want's to kill me because someone needs to die, and I was the easy target at the time. I guess the irony is that he's brought out information without even making me a sacrificial lamb.
And finally:
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. *sharpens pitchfork*
"Quick, the bandwagon's nearly full, let's get this over with quickly before it gets turned around". Once again, no real reasons given.
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Good morning to 2 new fresh pages, as expected. :)
I'm sticking with Theory. I decided that he was a likely candidate a couple of pages ago and in my eyes he hasn't done enough to clear himself. He keeps pointing the finger at TINAS and not explaining why we shouldn't lynch him.
I'm of course suspicious about TINAS, but as I mentioned before there may be more to gain for us by leaving him alive than by lynching him.
About the rest: Axxle is short and concise, this may be because he's Mafia and doesn't want to give away too much, I'm slightly suspicious of him. Then again I'm suspicious about all the bandwagoners.
I'm not so suspicious about O or Goober, I think they misjudged somewhat how many time it takes to keep up with topics like this.
@Goober: I haven't changed my vote since voting for Theory a while back and I'm staying with it. If you want to vote for TINAS, I understand your reasons to do so and will not convince you otherwise.
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I go out for one night and O forgets my name! *cries*
I don’t think I bandwagon jumped for TINAS, I was suspicious (not annoyed) of his behaviour all the way through (and stated that), and there were some good arguments made at the time and coupled with TINAS comments at the time, I can’t believe even a non-power townie would be so nonchalant against being lynched unless it was a last ditch attempt to not get lynched! If Theory had not voted when he did, I probably would have been first to vote.
If TINAS isn’t a mafia I shall eat my hat! (Note: I don’t actually own a hat)
Also, as we seem to be drawing a consensus that either Theory or TINAS is a mafia, we need to start looking at not who is voting for them, but for who is defending the one we think is....
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I go out for one night and O forgets my name! *cries*
I don’t think I bandwagon jumped for TINAS, I was suspicious (not annoyed) of his behaviour all the way through (and stated that), and there were some good arguments made at the time and coupled with TINAS comments at the time, I can’t believe even a non-power townie would be so nonchalant against being lynched unless it was a last ditch attempt to not get lynched! If Theory had not voted when he did, I probably would have been first to vote.
If TINAS isn’t a mafia I shall eat my hat! (Note: I don’t actually own a hat)
Also, as we seem to be drawing a consensus that either Theory or TINAS is a mafia, we need to start looking at not who is voting for them, but for who is defending the one we think is....
Funnily enough, when you are that close to being lynched all you have left are "last ditch attempts to not get lynched". Are you trying to imply that only mafia would want to not be lynched?
Also, you still have time to get a hat. And I recommend you do. And a webcam please, I want to see this.
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Funnily enough, when you are that close to being lynched all you have left are "last ditch attempts to not get lynched". Are you trying to imply that only mafia would want to not be lynched?
Also, you still have time to get a hat. And I recommend you do. And a webcam please, I want to see this.
You tell me, you are the one who is claiming townie but also claiming that you dont mind being lynched, to the point of offering to vote for yourself at one point....
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Okay...
Everyone wants to not be lynched.
Does that help?
(Off to work now)
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Okay...
Everyone wants to not be lynched.
Does that help?
(Off to work now)
Not really, pretty sure I knew that it was a desperation ploy to not get lynched, which means it doesn't explain away any of my earlier suspicions of you because thats how you would act if you were townie or mafia.
I know this confrontational style is 'the way you play' but I still think you made a mistake in the beginning and drew waay to much suspicion on it with yourself. And if you really are town then it seems a bit of a rookie mistake for someone who has played this game before lots. So if your Mafia you made a mistake, and if you really are a vanilla townie then you made a bigger one.
(Also off to work now, but able to check in from time to time)
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My only 'mistake' was to respond to joking accusations "I know nothing but I think it's TIANS and Theory" with a joking rebuttal "Well I know it's not me so it must be Theory". Nothing else that I have said even comes close to being a mistake, no matter how many times you or anybody else says it does. If you don't get it, that's your fault, not mine.
As an aside, I find it a kind of funny that after all of this, it's still me and theory in the line of fire. Seems the random finger pointing has stuck.
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So, some time has passed, nothing's happening. I guess it's the dead part of the day, middle of the workday. And I'm too nervous to cast a potentially deciding vote.
Nothing else that I have said even comes close to being a mistake,
Well, at the very least claiming to be a vanilla townie is a mistake, isn't it? If it's true, then the mafia know who not to kill when cop-or-doctor-hunting. (It's a mistake if it's true. And if it's not, well, then you're a mafia and should be lynched...)
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So, some time has passed, nothing's happening. I guess it's the dead part of the day, middle of the workday. And I'm too nervous to cast a potentially deciding vote.
Nothing else that I have said even comes close to being a mistake,
Well, at the very least claiming to be a vanilla townie is a mistake, isn't it? If it's true, then the mafia know who not to kill when cop-or-doctor-hunting. (It's a mistake if it's true. And if it's not, well, then you're a mafia and should be lynched...)
If its true, the mafia will know not to..
But how would the mafia know if it were true?
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True, I guess with how much pressure TINAS has had, that doesn't really carry any more weight than the lack-of-power-roleclaim.
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theory, early bandwagons are very hard for mafia to ignore, moreso when they're inexperienced. Sometimes they want to hammer early and cast the deciding vote, sometimes they clamor for action and hope that someone slips up and casts the deciding vote. I strongly believe that one of the mafia is in the early voting pool of TINAS. Most people expressed the thought that TINAS is mafia, but you've been a little more vocal. The reasons that TINAS put forth mirror mine in order to put you slightly ahead of Robz (for thinking he was quick-hammering) or Ozle (for being quick to judge and a little lurky). (ftl and I were kind of there too, but these are my prime suspects)
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So, some time has passed, nothing's happening. I guess it's the dead part of the day, middle of the workday. And I'm too nervous to cast a potentially deciding vote.
Nothing else that I have said even comes close to being a mistake,
Well, at the very least claiming to be a vanilla townie is a mistake, isn't it? If it's true, then the mafia know who not to kill when cop-or-doctor-hunting. (It's a mistake if it's true. And if it's not, well, then you're a mafia and should be lynched...)
It was a mistake. If he's a role and we lynched him the town would be at a huge disadvantage, if he's not mafia the mafia Rolecop can just check his role to verify.
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You could classify TINAS' play as a mistake from the perspective that it made him appear suspicious and almost got him lynched, which is bad for his side whichever side it is, but the ability of the mafia to rolecop him has nothing to do with it. That ability is a precious resource for them, and sure they can check up on TINAS to verify, but that just means they can't check up on someone else.
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Robz's strategy is pretty clearly just to swing the hammer quickly regardless. Unless he's mafia in both this game and the other mafia game :P
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Speaking of me swinging hammers, I'm about to launch into a conspiracy theory. I re-read the whole thing from beginning to end. It's not easy--you start to forget whether O said something, or was it the other 'O', Ozle, and where does ftl stand... etc. etc. Confusing stuff!
Since we are in such a stalemate, with half suspecting theory and half suspecting TINAS, I wondered if it's possible that neither of them is mafia. So I tried to look through the past posts with that thought in mind.
I must say--and this is a new accusation from me--that Axxle looks far and away the most suspicious when you go over everything again. I know everyone is worried about all the bandwagoning that theory and Ozle did, but really, if they were mafia, how could they possibly try to get away with such obvious play? I suspect--and I know this from real life--that mafia are hedgers. They hedge their bets. They vote for someone but cast doubt on the vote and accuse others, so that when the lynch inevitably fails to reveal a mafia, they can look smart and lead the next kill.
Axxle has hedged all over the place. He is Mr. Hedger. He cast the first and initial vote for TINAS but took it back before theory, ozle, and me made ours. Then he said he would cast the deciding vote for TINAS, then maintained that he still would but mentioned that he wasn't sure about it and suspected others, and then when momentum shifted toward theory he went that way.
I know that bandwagoning is a mafia strategy--an obvious one. What if Axxle is a mafia member playing a much more intelligent game? What if he arranged things--the TINAS situation at the beginning--so that others would bandwagon. And then Axxle became this big proponent of saying you are suspicious if you do that.
I know from reading over the logs that Goober and maybe someone else had some Axxle suspicions. I would like to hear if those suspicions still exist.
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I'm going to stick with my theory that Axxle was accusing TINAS as some sort of information draw. I kind of brought up these concerns (which you ignored when I posted..) but decided ultimately that Axxle is a pretty unlikely choice, and pretty genius if he is mafia.
Axxle did not start on theory when people started shifting towards theory.. because there WAS NO shift towards theory, really. There was more of a shift away from TINAS more than anything else.
Maybe I'm just biased because he backed me up and declared me almost certainly town, which is true ::).
I think we can safely disqualify Ozle from being mafia, because who's ever heard of a mafia member not owning a hat?!
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I'm going to stick with my theory that Axxle was accusing TINAS as some sort of information draw. I kind of brought up these concerns (which you ignored when I posted..)
I did ignore them, I'm sorry. :'(
but decided ultimately that Axxle is a pretty unlikely choice, and pretty genius if he is mafia.
I think he may be a genius mafia.
Axxle did not start on theory when people started shifting towards theory.. because there WAS NO shift towards theory, really. There was more of a shift away from TINAS more than anything else.
He didn't start on him, no. That's because he refuses to bandwagon anyone himself... all the better to later accuse these bandwagoners of being mafia. Look at this recent post from him!
theory, early bandwagons are very hard for mafia to ignore, moreso when they're inexperienced. Sometimes they want to hammer early and cast the deciding vote, sometimes they clamor for action and hope that someone slips up and casts the deciding vote. I strongly believe that one of the mafia is in the early voting pool of TINAS. Most people expressed the thought that TINAS is mafia, but you've been a little more vocal. The reasons that TINAS put forth mirror mine in order to put you slightly ahead of Robz (for thinking he was quick-hammering) or Ozle (for being quick to judge and a little lurky). (ftl and I were kind of there too, but these are my prime suspects)
He's an evil genius! He created the situation whereby he could make this claim of all those people!
Maybe I'm just biased because he backed me up and declared me almost certainly town, which is true ::).
I think we can safely disqualify Ozle from being mafia, because who's ever heard of a mafia member not owning a hat?!
I hear ya, and like twice earlier on I wrote something like, "I agree completely with Axxle!" Axxle's friendship was quite dear to me. But now I know it was all lies. Well, I don't know. I suspect!
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So we're 5 days through our 10 day deadline and we're apparently pretty much decided on today's lynch (choice of two) and starting to think about the next. Do we really need to drag this out for another five days?
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(Not trying to rush any decisions, just a bit bored of waiting for something to happen now. If there's any particular information you're waiting on, please feel free to let us know so we can help you out.)
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So we're 5 days through our 10 day deadline and we're apparently pretty much decided on today's lynch (choice of two) and starting to think about the next. Do we really need to drag this out for another five days?
I'm not one for dragging things along.
I don't get why ftl is hesitant to cast a deciding vote. As if that vote matters any more than previous votes for the same guy he will vote for. It's like a football competition where a team falls back to a lower division at the end of the season in the last match. It's not like they lost the entire season in that match.
What I would like to see is people to just make up their minds already. Pick someone, stick with it and get some results. It's like my brother trying to pick what he wants for his main course? "Shall I have the spare ribs or the steak..." I hate it when people can't choose. :P
Look, I understand if you have to pick between dropping a nuclear bomb or not, but this is still a game with loads of uncertainty and it's not like your choice is going to change the course of human history. And I understand that you guys desperately want to make the right choice, but I don't think we'll get much more info at this point, barring someone who is being eaten alive by his conscience and can't bear keeping secrets anymore. I think the only way forward is to actually lynch someone.
And yes, I know that my anxiousness to lynch someone can look suspicious, but if anyone wants to waste time suspecting me then just go ahead, it's not my time you're wasting. :D
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I AM NOW SUSPiCIOUS OF DAVIO. IF NOBODY CAN CONVINCE ME OTHERWISE I WILL SWITCH MY VOTE TO HIM IN PRECISELY 7 HOURS 12 MINUTES AND 41 SECONDS. [/obvious joke]
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Eh, mostly I was just hesitant because I had no idea what's going on, and was back to questioning everything I thought I had an idea about before. And whoever I thought about voting for, I'd feel stupid if the other guy ended up Mafia and we let him go after being so close. Feeling n00by I guess.
..I'm tempted to put in "Vote: Th ...and then leave the sentence unfinished.
It's time to decide, though.
Vote: Theory
Let's hope we get something to go on afterwards.
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Is that 5 for theory now?
I'm not quite sure what he did wrong except cast an early vote on the first day(not even the earliest) but I guess you others saw something I didn't if he is mafia.
If he isn't mafia I shall certainly be looking close ly at who voted for him and why!
I'm still allowed to talk now right until its officially night?
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I'm still allowed to talk now right until its officially night?
I think so. In fact, I don't see why not.
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It appears that I am being lynched.
As you will soon see, I am a townie. I understand why the Mafia is lynching me: I have clearly set forth a case against one or more of their members. I am extremely disappointed in my fellow townies. For three more of you to be fooled by their FUD is astonishing to me, and quite dismaying. If you re-read the topic I believe you will see that the case against me is a complete and utter sham. No one has ever stated a case for lynching me other than the fact that I targeted TINAS early on, and that I have not wavered from that position. This is the behavior of a townie. Not a mafioso. Real mafia hedge. They deceive. They waver back and forth. They act suspiciously.
As my death approaches, it has become blatantly obvious to me who the real mafia are. I leave it up to you all to avenge my death. I pray that in the night, we are able to protect those that are true townies, those that are not so easily manipulated by the mafia.
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Also, I'd like a link to the quicktopic now, please.
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As my death approaches, it has become blatantly obvious to me who the real mafia are. I leave it up to you all to avenge my death. I pray that in the night, we are able to protect those that are true townies, those that are not so easily manipulated by the mafia.
You are not officially dead yet I believe, only until pops comes along. So your still able to name those blatantly obvious mafia people before you go!
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Yeah. If you were town, you are perfectly within your rights to now out the mafia, if you know who they are, and this is obviously a good move to make. The fact that you claim to know who mafia are, but are not willing to give names just reassures me that you are one of them.
Feeling confident about this now.
(Also, thanks guys. I'll make sure you don't regret it).
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It's a question for the philosophers, I suppose, whether I "win" even if I am dead when the mafia are exterminated.
Regardless, I have no desire to help this town any longer :) They ought to figure it out themselves, without the benefit of me broadcasting the names of the obvious mafia members for all (mafia and non-mafia alike) to know.
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For instance, note the difference in reactions to my post. Who is preparing an alibi for later?
[The legality of all this twilight talk feels weird.]
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It's a question for the philosophers, I suppose, whether I "win" even if I am dead when the mafia are exterminated.
Regardless, I have no desire to help this town any longer :) They ought to figure it out themselves, without the benefit of me broadcasting the names of the obvious mafia members for all (mafia and non-mafia alike) to know.
By the rules, if we win, you win the game as well (assuming you really are town)
And you are not dead yet, still a chance to convince someone to unvote you and change to someone else (Obviously this is unlikely though) and the best way to do that would be to name names!
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My understanding is that votes can no longer be changed, because once we hit 5 it is locked.
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For instance, note the difference in reactions to my post. Who is preparing an alibi for later?
[The legality of all this twilight talk feels weird.]
Well only me and Ozle have posted since your post. I've reread both of our posts and it doesn't seem to me like either of us are preparing an alibi. I'm confused.
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I'm short on time, but THREAD LOCKED.
I should be able to make an elaborate lynch scene sometime today.
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(Characters appear in voter order)
Everyone gathered in the Gardens and to hash things out. Someone had killed pops. Pops cared for everyone else's Gardens, so someone didn't really care about his Gardens. Someone was plotting to defect with a different strategy, Provinces or, even sicker, Colonies.
Davio said, "Theory seems suspicious to me! Thisisnotasmile, go take a peek in his window".
Thisisnotasmile moved ahead and peered through the glass of Theory's house in the Hamlet. "I see a paper on the table. I can't quite read it."
O spied something in the flower bed. "Hey, it's a Navigator's telescope! Let's use it to get a close look".
"You and your circular objects" Axxle remarked.
O looked through his telescope (well, actually theory's Navigator's telescope, but hey, sometimes Gardeners like to be Thieves) at the paper on the table.
"It's a Loan!!" O said.
ftl quickly connected the dots. "No way would a Gardens player ever have a Loan! It trashes Coppers. He's secretly a Province player! Let's lynch him!!
The five of them grabbed their pitchforks and formed a Militia. They found Theory, and brought him back to his own front yard. They threw him on the ground. Theory spluttered, "Wait! I can explain!". But ftl needed no explanation. He threw his pitchfork through theory's back, all the way into the dirt.
Dirt which then spurted Gold. Everyone was confused. They struck with their pitchforks too, and more and more Gold came.
They took theory's key from his pocket and went in his house. They read the Loan more carefully. "Never paid. Your loan is overdue theory, interest has doubled." But 9 coppers were sitting right there on a table! They went down the stairs to check out his Cellar, and found carved into it a vast network of Tunnels. With horror, they realized their mistake. Theory had never and would never trash a copper. He was piling out Tunnels, 2 VP for 3$, a real Gardens man's bargain. The Loan would trigger it and increase his Gardens count. Maybe questionable, but Gardens loyal for sure. They found no evidence of power in his house, he was just a regular guy.
No bolded flip because I worked so hard on the flavor..
Night actions in 48 hours by PM, please.
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Ending Day 1 slightly early due to the pattern of my convenience here.
A cool breeze blew through the Gardens this morning. Everyone woke up and looked around to see who was still ok. Someone was missing... goober. They looked around goober's Estates, then in his tomato Garden. He lay dead, face up, with a pointed crucifix jabbed through his heart.
A note lay on him. "No piling on my watch."
goober was a vanilla townie, with no powers.
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Ending Day 1 slightly early due to the pattern of my convenience here.
goober died
flavor later maybe
Needs more flavour...
And a revealing of Goober's role (I assume vanilla town otherwise you probably would have mentioned).
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Well, now it's time to go back over the old conversation, and reread it through the lens of knowing that the Mafia knew full well that goober and Theory were both vanilla townies.
Assuming goober is a vanilla townie and not a cop. (Mafia II got off to a terrible start, with a night-1 cop-kill...)
Also hoping our cop will subtly push us in the right direction... if he knows a right direction.
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I am extremely disappointed in my fellow townies. For three more of you to be fooled by their FUD is astonishing to me, and quite dismaying.
Please, Please post them on the quicktopic now so when it turns out you're wrong we can all reference this ridiculous post ;)
As my death approaches, it has become blatantly obvious to me who the real mafia are. I leave it up to you all to avenge my death. I pray that in the night, we are able to protect those that are true townies, those that are not so easily manipulated by the mafia.
At least we lynched a pretty terrible townie, one who allegedly deliberately doesn't help his fellow team.
I don't feel bad about my vote, actually. I'm still relatively confident that TINAS is not mafia.... and theory was acting very suspicious. Theory did next to nothing to respond to accusations against him. This is unhelpful to the town, not the mafia (the mafia have the information already...)
I didn't lynch goober (mandatory preface...) but I believe goober was lynched because we had the least amount of information on him.
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Also hoping our cop will subtly push us in the right direction... if he knows a right direction.
If we have a cop...
I didn't lynch goober (mandatory preface...) but I believe goober was lynched because we had the least amount of information on him.
I get the feeling he was killed because he was making long, sense-filled posts that actually pointed to the mafia.
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Good morning, you fools.
As I said over and over and over and over and over again, Theory had done nothing to make himself particularly suspicious, other than accusing who actually was suspicious.
Theory voters, you've got some explaining to do. That's Axxle, Davio, O, TINAS, and Ftl. It's essentially a certainty that both mafia are among these 5 people.
As I said earlier Axxle stands out to me as someone leading the game, doing a lot of hedging, and generally acting suspiciously. And hey, I still find TINAS suspicious.
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Good morning, you fools.
As I said over and over and over and over and over again, Theory had done nothing to make himself particularly suspicious, other than accusing who actually was suspicious.
Theory voters, you've got some explaining to do. That's Axxle, Davio, O, TINAS, and Ftl. It's essentially a certainty that both mafia are among these 5 people.
As I said earlier Axxle stands out to me as someone leading the game, doing a lot of hedging, and generally acting suspiciously. And hey, I still find TINAS suspicious.
1) Theory did everything to make himself suspicious: He did not defend himself
2) Both mafia do not need to be within the 5 people if TINAS is also townie.
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I am, too, suspicious of Axxle's hedging but mostly actually of Ftl. Ftl is the guy who wanted me gone because of the person I am, rather than anything game related, and then at the last minute seemed fine to swing completely the other way and drop the hammer on Theory with no real reasoning. I'd like to hear from Ftl about why he did this?
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They found no evidence of power in his house, he was just a regular guy.
Does this mean he was a townie? Or is it just there to add flavor?
Also, I presume Goober was a townie. Otherwise it just doesn't make sense.
I don't mind explaining my vote for Theory, it's just that every single time, and I mean EVERY time, I reaffirmed my suspicions of him and posted them, he did nothing to defend them and just passed the ball to Thisisnotasmile. He became a bit like Thisisnotasmile in the end, not caring whether he lived or died. Well, I don't like playing with people who aren't very helpful. At least Thisisnotasmile can generate a lot of info with a single post.
I have posted suspicions of Axxle earlier and have gone over the topic again.
He started out immediately voting for Thisisnotasmile, but unvoted. Then he immediately voted for Goober, but switched to Theory in the end.
Why the quick votes? I guess it's useful to get some reactions from people, but merely suspecting may work just as well and doesn't carry the risk of an accidental lynch?
I would also like to hear more from FTL.
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Yeah, can we (do we?) get an official ruling on Goober's role?
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Just suspecting does not do as well as voting. Voting gives omph to your argument. And an accidental lynch is exactly what you need to spur players into responding (it's a feature, not a bug). No one wants to get accidentally lynched, and having votes against you means you have to actively persuade players into unvoting for you or voting for someone else. Your reaction and others reaction to the vote means that even more information is thrown into the mix, and hey, if you don't have a good enough case to not get lynched, then you just might be mafia and my vote is justified.
It does look like I was hedging, but I really was trying to get information out of TINAS (and other players) and a post out of goober. I know at one point (during the delayed hammer) I entertained the thought TINAS was mafia but eventually I came to think theory was. Is it really that weird that I, to some extent, suspected both theory and TINAS when half of everyone else suspected TINAS and the other half suspected theory?
All this talk of "hedging bets" really just sounds like (to me): "Hey! That guy is looking at all the evidence instead of just sticking to one guy and piling evidence on him. Let's get'im!"
Also, just to clarify, I was the third person to vote for theory, unlike what pops's story indicates.
At the moment I'm thinking ftl deserves more suspicion than he's previously had. I'm going to have to reread everything but I won't have much time today and tomorrow because of travel/vacation.\
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It's unfortunate theory didn't want to help us at the end there. No helping that I guess, it's not like TINAS did much better.
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Why do we think Goober was killed?
I cant see who he voted for, did he even vote?
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Also, i think the killing of Theory means we are all going to find it difficult to cast the first vote on someone now!
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Goober and theory are both dead vanilla townies.
Flavor added.
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Ok, so my first suspicion has to go out to TINAS still, he hasn't done anything that makes me LESS suspicious, but nothing to do anything more suspicious however, others are gathering ground on him quickly...(now some of this info may be slightly wrong as im doing it from memory as I dont have the time tonight to go through 10 pages of stuff, feel free to correct me, I wont be offended)
O is gaining ground because of his early conviction that FTL was mafia, even going so far as to vote for him, however, when the theory bandwagon became rolling he wasnt too long in changing his vote (although not the hammer it has to be noted). Could be a clever strategy of the O-Ftl fued that both are mafia...although its a risky strategy, but unlikely, more just a bit of tit-for-tat in all probability.
Robz888, he does seem to be leading the people, posting good explanations against quite a few players and a bit of shifting attention around as well, rather than sticking to one. Its not enough to make me too suspicious of him, however it bears to be careful of him as he could be manipulating us all well.
Axxle, first to vote for TINAS, and then switched his vote to Theory when that campaign gathered pace. Although third vote, so actually lessened the chance of a hammer coming down I feel. Does seem to swing a bit much for my liking, but someone before (cant remember who) stated that this is fairly valid to draw out information.
TINAS, TINAS, TINAS. I still dont get your style in the first day, especially the offering to vote for yourself, but not doing it. That just strikes me as plain weird behaviour. You also seemed to jump on whoever was the popular candidate against you (although this makes sense if you were trying to save yourself, but doing it because its not you, rather than who you think is Mafia strikes me as a survival instinct rather than the 'for the town' attitude i think you would normall have)
Basically, if its not TINAS, I have no idea who it is because you are all seeming pretty shifty at the moment, especially those that voted for Theory because I couldnt see what he did wrong in the first place except to vote for TINAS too quickly, which he posted his reasons for and there was no other real suspicion about him. I cant see how he could defend himself from that. If people would like to tell me why they switched thier votes from someone else to Theory, I would be greatful! (Or just wait till tomorrow when I can re-read it all and will come to own conclusions)
Why do we think Goober was killed? I cant see him leading much discussion, and there are people I think are more likely townies.
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Ok, so my first suspicion has to go out to TINAS still, he hasn't done anything that makes me LESS suspicious, but nothing to do anything more suspicious however, others are gathering ground on him quickly...(now some of this info may be slightly wrong as im doing it from memory as I dont have the time tonight to go through 10 pages of stuff, feel free to correct me, I wont be offended)
O is gaining ground because of his early conviction that FTL was mafia, even going so far as to vote for him, however, when the theory bandwagon became rolling he wasnt too long in changing his vote (although not the hammer it has to be noted). Could be a clever strategy of the O-Ftl fued that both are mafia...although its a risky strategy, but unlikely, more just a bit of tit-for-tat in all probability.
Robz888, he does seem to be leading the people, posting good explanations against quite a few players and a bit of shifting attention around as well, rather than sticking to one. Its not enough to make me too suspicious of him, however it bears to be careful of him as he could be manipulating us all well.
Axxle, first to vote for TINAS, and then switched his vote to Theory when that campaign gathered pace. Although third vote, so actually lessened the chance of a hammer coming down I feel. Does seem to swing a bit much for my liking, but someone before (cant remember who) stated that this is fairly valid to draw out information.
TINAS, TINAS, TINAS. I still dont get your style in the first day, especially the offering to vote for yourself, but not doing it. That just strikes me as plain weird behaviour. You also seemed to jump on whoever was the popular candidate against you (although this makes sense if you were trying to save yourself, but doing it because its not you, rather than who you think is Mafia strikes me as a survival instinct rather than the 'for the town' attitude i think you would normall have)
Basically, if its not TINAS, I have no idea who it is because you are all seeming pretty shifty at the moment, especially those that voted for Theory because I couldnt see what he did wrong in the first place except to vote for TINAS too quickly, which he posted his reasons for and there was no other real suspicion about him. I cant see how he could defend himself from that. If people would like to tell me why they switched thier votes from someone else to Theory, I would be greatful! (Or just wait till tomorrow when I can re-read it all and will come to own conclusions)
Why do we think Goober was killed? I cant see him leading much discussion, and there are people I think are more likely townies.
I switched my vote from FTL to theory because I was entirely (and still am mostly) confident that TINAS was not mafia, and it wasn't looking like FTL was going to get voted on. I posted like 10 times that I was equally suspicious of FTL and Theory, both before and after I switched my vote. ;)
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Ok, so my first suspicion has to go out to TINAS still, he hasn't done anything that makes me LESS suspicious, but nothing to do anything more suspicious however, others are gathering ground on him quickly...(now some of this info may be slightly wrong as im doing it from memory as I dont have the time tonight to go through 10 pages of stuff, feel free to correct me, I wont be offended)
O is gaining ground because of his early conviction that FTL was mafia, even going so far as to vote for him, however, when the theory bandwagon became rolling he wasnt too long in changing his vote (although not the hammer it has to be noted). Could be a clever strategy of the O-Ftl fued that both are mafia...although its a risky strategy, but unlikely, more just a bit of tit-for-tat in all probability.
Robz888, he does seem to be leading the people, posting good explanations against quite a few players and a bit of shifting attention around as well, rather than sticking to one. Its not enough to make me too suspicious of him, however it bears to be careful of him as he could be manipulating us all well.
Axxle, first to vote for TINAS, and then switched his vote to Theory when that campaign gathered pace. Although third vote, so actually lessened the chance of a hammer coming down I feel. Does seem to swing a bit much for my liking, but someone before (cant remember who) stated that this is fairly valid to draw out information.
TINAS, TINAS, TINAS. I still dont get your style in the first day, especially the offering to vote for yourself, but not doing it. That just strikes me as plain weird behaviour. You also seemed to jump on whoever was the popular candidate against you (although this makes sense if you were trying to save yourself, but doing it because its not you, rather than who you think is Mafia strikes me as a survival instinct rather than the 'for the town' attitude i think you would normall have)
Basically, if its not TINAS, I have no idea who it is because you are all seeming pretty shifty at the moment, especially those that voted for Theory because I couldnt see what he did wrong in the first place except to vote for TINAS too quickly, which he posted his reasons for and there was no other real suspicion about him. I cant see how he could defend himself from that. If people would like to tell me why they switched thier votes from someone else to Theory, I would be greatful! (Or just wait till tomorrow when I can re-read it all and will come to own conclusions)
Why do we think Goober was killed? I cant see him leading much discussion, and there are people I think are more likely townies.
I look forward to your full analysis. Also still interested in hearing from Ftl. Probably Axxle too.
95% certain O is good at this point.
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Goober was killed because nobody had voiced any lasting suspicions of him. The mafia want to kill anyone presumed innocent and leave alive suspicious players--all the better to distract from their own suspicious activities.
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Suspicion ordering
Ftl (Still)
Ozle
Davio
Robz
Axxle
TINAS
Me!
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Oh no! I'm on the top of the suspicion list now :( Knew I shouldn't have made a final vote...
Well, TINAS survived being on top of the list for a while, maybe I can too.
Good morning, you fools.
As I said over and over and over and over and over again, Theory had done nothing to make himself particularly suspicious, other than accusing who actually was suspicious.
Theory voters, you've got some explaining to do. That's Axxle, Davio, O, TINAS, and Ftl. It's essentially a certainty that both mafia are among these 5 people.
As I said earlier Axxle stands out to me as someone leading the game, doing a lot of hedging, and generally acting suspiciously. And hey, I still find TINAS suspicious.
I'm not convinced that both Mafia are among those five. I'd be more like to suspect a 1-1 split between Theory and TINAS voters (unless TINAS is himself Mafia).
If both Theory and TINAS are innocent, then the mafia had nothing to gain by ganging up on one of them, and it's better to stay split. (Of course, if TINAS is Mafia, then presumably his partner didn't vote for him, given how close he came to being lynched.)
Axxle is possible. He kept talking as if he were going to vote for TINAS, but wanted someone else to actually finish the job, perhaps so as not to get stuck in the kill-an-innocent bunch like the five of us did? I need to go back and see whether TINAS/Axxle is possible as a mafia pairing - did Axxle jump on the bandwagon once it looked to be certain? Or was he there from the beginning of it?
I am, too, suspicious of Axxle's hedging but mostly actually of Ftl. Ftl is the guy who wanted me gone because of the person I am, rather than anything game related, and then at the last minute seemed fine to swing completely the other way and drop the hammer on Theory with no real reasoning. I'd like to hear from Ftl about why he did this?
Mostly because I cooled down a little, stopped being angry, and realized that voting for someone because I don't like them would pretty much be as bad as a lot of things I dislike. (Especially after someone - O, or Ozle, I think? - basically said the same thing about me, that they didn't like how I play but that wasn't gonna make them vote for me.) Theory was the opposite option, for wanting a quick lynch of TINAS (I actually thought that Robz was much more single-minded about attacking TINAS than Theory was, but Theory seemed not to give much of a justification, like with the pitchforks comment).
Also, TINAS afterwards, after he didn't get lynched when axxle didn't vote for him, said some more reasonable things than he had said previously, or that's the impression I got.
Also, i think the killing of Theory means we are all going to find it difficult to cast the first vote on someone now!
Eh, I don't think so. Other way around, even maybe; next time, we may be less hasty to pull the trigger on someone just because they seem to have wanted to lynch first, since we were mislead before.
TINAS, TINAS, TINAS. I still dont get your style in the first day, especially the offering to vote for yourself, but not doing it. That just strikes me as plain weird behaviour. You also seemed to jump on whoever was the popular candidate against you (although this makes sense if you were trying to save yourself, but doing it because its not you, rather than who you think is Mafia strikes me as a survival instinct rather than the 'for the town' attitude i think you would normall have)
Well, to be fair, if you know you're Town, then anyone-but-you is more likely to be Mafia than you.
People who seem innocent to me:
Me
Robz maybe?
Mafia: everyone else
Maybe TINAS and Axxle at the top of the list?
Davio seems to be habitually uncommitted? I need to go back and reread and see whether he was ever really on one of the bandwagons and agitating for someone in a noticeable way or just staying hidden
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I've never been on any bandwagon.
Once I put in my vote for Theory I never changed. I had my own reasons for voting for Theory which I have mentioned over and over. Now that we know he was a vanilla townie, I'm really confused why he didn't try to stay alive more?
For my new suspicions I have to look at anyone who's keeping under the radar.
As to why Goober was killed, I guess it was just because he wasn't so active.
The game has changed for the worse now though, with 2 Mafia remaining among us 7.
I really thought Theory might have been Mafia. It's getting harder now, but we'll suss them out!
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Okay, theory wasn't mafia--something I claimed a whole bunch and no one seemed to hear me. Hear me now!
TINAS and Axxle seem the most like mafia to me. Unfortunately, there's like no way they are both mafia, because Axxle cast the first and immediate vote for TINAS (and I doubt one mafia would do that to another, just because what if that ball gets rolling?).
The thing is, if TINAS were not mafia, I don't know why the mafia wouldn't have dropped the hammer on him earlier. I would think they would just want to lynch this townie, instead of shifting things for it to be some other townie (theory). The votes were there, unless both mafia had voted for him and you still couldn't get a kill. So, wouldn't the mafia be like, Ozle and Ftl, then?
But that's if TINAS is innocent... and I still think he is mafia, which could explain why there was this slow movement toward theory; a co-mafia was driving it. Davio, maybe?
To me, I still cannot fathom TINAS offering to kill himself, being told to do so, and then not doing it. That's something a desperate mafia would do.
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Okay let's do this. Was gonna wait for Ozle and Axxle to make a post but I don't really think we need it...
I'm the cop. I need to reveal at some point today regardless (of whether I'm a likely lynch target or not), because if I don't there's a good chance I will be killed at night and will have missed my chance to reveal. Since I know both mafia members had voted for me yesterday (hence the lack of hammer on me), I last night investigated Ozle. 100% no strings guarantee, he is mafia.
With that out of the way that leaves the last mafia being either Ftl or Robz. I also am slightly suspicious of Axxle but he had a chance to hammer me (he posted when he wasn't on the bandwagon for me and there were 4 votes for me), and didn't take it. In my mind, that pretty much rules him out. That leaves it down to Ftl, who I have voiced my suspicions of earlier, and Robz, who doesn't seem so suspicious, but has played before and may be good at covering himself. Maybe we can work together to figure it out?
But for now: vote: Ozle.
It's time for everyone to start searching for Ozle-accomplices. Maybe delay the lynch a bit to give us some time to think, and when I die tonight (do we have a docor? Oh boy do I hope we have a doctor) I wish the rest of the town the best of luck.
Once again I am sorry for getting Theory killed, but at the end of the day, it was better than losing me. I promised I would make it worth your while and I am now delivering.
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Would be funny if at this point someone goes: No, I'm the cop!
Would be even more funny if it was Ozle saying he inspected you. :P
BTW: If at the end you're still Mafia, Thisisnotasmile, I won't hold it against you.
I won't be stupid enough to trust someone 100%, but at least you can make things interesting. ;D
Too much info is always better than no info.
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Would also be a lie, but I'd like to see it.
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Sorry I edited that post, forgot about the rule.
I only added the two blocks below the two "Would be funny" sentences.
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He knows I am the Cop, not quite sure how he does maybe I gave it away
So either a lucky guess or he knew I would investigate him and find out he is Mafia (except I didn't, because I was already convinced).
And Im pretty sure I can prove I am the cop, as the person I investigated I got 'No result on' meaning they were in jail. So I can just name that person, and at least the Jailer will know im on the up!
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Yeah, I completely understand if anybody does not trust me (apart from Ozle. If you do not trust me you are lying). I'm more than happy to explain my "mistakes" (read: I have not made any mistakes ;)) later on if anyone thinks it will help them to believe me. Otherwish you can just lynch me or Ozle (I would recommend Ozle) and confirm my story for yourself.
Back to work now.
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And in my mind, Ozle's post confirms the mafia rolecop has found that we have a jailkeeper. Thanks for that info. No premature lynching while I am gone, please, guys.
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Not much point beating about the bush now, I think this comes down to who you believe, me or TINAS.
Vote Tinas
Im not sure how he knew I was the cop, must have let something slip earlier.
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As it can only be down to me and TINAS, and TINAS says he has done nothing that would mark him out as mafia but it looks real clear to me that he is the Mafia Rolecop, ill do a recap of why I have suspected him all along:
Some Tinas quotes:
He led the charge against theory
He came out early as extremely defensive after being accused, trying to use his 'this is how I play' argument.
Although this all of a sudden changed when it started to go against him and he looked like he was likely to get lynched.
If you were in a power role, would you make this quote:
Nah, not being defensive anymore. I'm happy to be lynched. I'm fine being randomly lynched as long as there is no REAL info going around because it means I can sit back and laugh at my team (read: town) for bringing it upon themselves for the rest of the game. And hey, chances are we are going to lynch one of our own, so may as well get rid of someone who doesn't have a power role. It could be worse, right?
Where he basically stats he is a vanilla townie!!
I tink that last bit is the killer for me, he has claimed he was a vanilla townie when he was going to get lynched, and now he is claiming he is the cop.
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(no edit, so cant remove the 'Some Tinas quotes' bit of my above posts, those are not quotes by him, those are why I thought he was mafia. Apart from the bit in quotes obviosuly, thats a quote from him)
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Somehow my post got lost but here's the gist:
Woah-woah, woah-woah, woah-woah-woah. What are you doing TINAS? Do you realize how close I was to lynching you yesterday?
It's pretty obvious that Ozle and TINAS are cop and rolecop. That's the only way the have the information they have. Not trusting TINAS at all after what happened Day 1. Lying is a huge indicator of mafia. I'm wary of Ozle too, but really only for the same reasons I was of theory and that mislynch has put me a little on edge for following that same line of thought.
Now I have to go read the thread a third time? ::) (well, i guess i only got halfway through it the second time)
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Just thought of another thing:
Quote by TINAS
" I last night investigated Ozle. 100% no strings guarantee, he is mafia"
And then a bit later he says I am a mafia rolecop:
"Ozle's post confirms the mafia rolecop has found that we have a jailkeeper"
If TINAS KNOWS im a mafia, why would he not also reveal earlier on that he also knew I was a Mafia Rolecop, only offering this information AFTER i pointed out I could prove I investigated someone, surely if he knew I was a rolecop he would be ready for me to come back and say i investigated someone, but fails to mention this until i put up my claim that I investigated someone.
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Ok, lets look at voting behavior:
It does seem a rather suspicious post on your part This, especially as you seem a bit of a pro at this, and even if your lying and not a Mafioso (which I believe is highly likely) then a non-powered townie is bit better than a power townie.
Vote: Thisisnotasmile
Quickly after theory, although it was also after posts of TINAS claiming vanilla and Robz explaining to everyone why lynching a vanilla townie is better than a role. It never changes
Gonna vote: Goober simply because it's about the only chance I have left of living. Despite my not-particularly-caring about death at this stage, I would still prefer to live.
After 2 votes on goober just for (goober) being inactive.
And now that we've heard from Goober I am more than happy to unvote. That guy's pretty much cleared himself.
After everyone else unvotes for him for similar reasons.
Whoever is mafia, both members have already voted for me or else I would already have been hammered.
I know that at this point I could still be mafia in which case that's not true blah blah blah whatever. This is why I want you all to remember this statement for when I am dead, and my innocense is proven.
In light of this fact, and Theory's desperation for me to start pointing the finger myself, I am more than happy to vote: Theory.
After only Davio voted for him.
For all TINAS's assertions he was vanilla town and claiming he was ok with being lynched (which I someone compiled previously) he was pretty desperate to get someone else lynched. Jumping on most (all?) bandwagons. I'm not sure why I missed it before. I have a very bad feeling I made a big mistake not lynching him when I had the chance.
TINAS could have been a lot more subtler about claiming Cop. There is only a 1/3 chance of there being a doctor. Maybe it's worth it to be night-killed to kill one mafia, but I think it's more likely that you saw that people were still suspecting you primarily (panicked?) and wanted to pull the Cop card before Ozle did.
Ozle's counter claim seems very convenient. Is there a Jailer? If not we may be able to just call it and lynch Ozle. Ozle hasn't been making many waves, and that could be that he's mafia or a cop that wants to be sure about what hes doing.
At this point we need to figure out if it's TINAS or Ozle. I'm not sure if we should figure out his accomplice just yet... Actually we probably should since that will give the Jailer (assuming he exists) a potential mafia member that we can prevent from killing in the night.
The conclusion I invariably come to is Vote: TINAS Sorry I didn't follow your line of reasoning earlier, Robz.
I was just about to say I hope to hear goober's thoughts on this... :'(
Well in any case I'd definitely like to hear from everyone else, mostly O since I'm sure he has a different perspective on all this, trusting TINAS from the start.
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It seems we have reached quite an interesting crossroads.
I won't past anything past TINAS. His erratic behavior may very well be that of a kingpin who's feeling the heat. He barely escaped the first day lynch and may very well think: "If I can live through that, I can basically do anything and they won't lynch me."
This is false. I have only indulged TINAS so far, because of the amount of posts he generates.
Ozle on the other hand has become really defensive. I guess the thought of getting lynched will do that to you.
Will have to go through the thread again to methodically separate the lies from the truth, going to take a while...
Is there any way to filter out the posts from someone in a topic?
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Yep, I've had to go defensive and reveal im a cop. I wasn't going to do it until I put more pressure on TINAS to see if we could catch his partner out. Coming straight off the bat and announcing it just seems a really bad tactic to me, a desperation tactic. Would love to hear some justification with this.
"Is there any way to filter out the posts from someone in a topic?"
Not sure if there is, I looked thorugh users posts in the forum and just picked out the Mafia related ones, although sometimes then you don't get context.
Just to reiterate though, there are two clear lies Tinas has made so far:
Claiming im 100% mafia then claiming im a rolecopNow, this could be a move to try to draw information out, but then if his aim was to try to trick information out mafia then why come right out with announcing your a cop
and
Claiming to be vanilla then claiming to be a cop
He has already managed to somehow to convince you in the first round that it was Theory not him who was the mafia. I dont know how he got away with it once, but he is doing it again.
As far as I can tell I have not drawn that much suspicion in the first round, didn't get a vote, which is why he probably Rolecopped me and got lucky that I was the cop
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Looks like I was right about him on day one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Take that, haters.
Yeah, Ozle is absolutely the cop. There is no way TINAS would have not told us he was the cop yesterday. He was at 4 votes and it seemed imminent that would go to 5.
VOTE TINAS
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Oops, not sure I wrote it the correct way. VOTE: TINAS
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Ozle, will you name the person you investigated?
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Okay seriously, don't hammer me, give me a chance to defend myself. I said I would after work and you all respond with this...
Give me a minute. Please someone unvote before you make a horrible mistake.
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Okay seriously, don't hammer me, give me a chance to defend myself. I said I would after work and you all respond with this...
Give me a minute. Please someone unvote before you make a horrible mistake.
I won't vote until you can make your case.
I won't guarantee I won't vote for you after either.
Then again I don't like hopping on bandwagons, so if I vote for you, it will be for my own reasons, not someone elses.
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Okay first thing's first, I didn't announce that Ozle was mafia rolecop when I originally claimed cop because well... being the cop doesn't tell you your target's role, just their allegiance. I only knew he was rolecop after he announced to the world that he found the jailer last night.
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Ozle, will you name the person you investigated?
I will do if there is a consensus from people, if I do name them then it tells the last mafia who a vanilla townie is, meaning they can have an increased chance if they go after the jailer tonight (unless they go for Tinas or me, but presume if I survive today and am the cop I'll be the one protected). So I'd rather not do it unless its a last resort and it looks like I'm gonna get lynched
If 3 people (not including Tinas for obvious reasons) want me too then I will
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Ozle, will you name the person you investigated?
I will do if there is a consensus from people, if I do name them then it tells the last mafia who a vanilla townie is, meaning they can have an increased chance if they go after the jailer tonight (unless they go for Tinas or me, but presume if I survive today and am the cop I'll be the one protected). So I'd rather not do it unless its a last resort and it looks like I'm gonna get lynched
If 3 people (not including Tinas for obvious reasons) want me too then I will
Not necessarily. You just picked the same person as the jailkeeper. You could have both picked a mafia member. Let's say I am mafia, and you chose to investigate me, and the jailkeeper chose to block me (either to inhibit my mafia-ness, or to protect me). That would stop your power from working, but it wouldn't prove I was innocent--and in this case, I would not have been.
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Robz, please unvote and give me ten minutes.
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Robz, please unvote and give me ten minutes.
Okay, UNVOTE
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Robz, please unvote and give me ten minutes.
Take your time. I won't re-vote you for now.
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Thank you.
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Ozle, will you name the person you investigated?
I will do if there is a consensus from people, if I do name them then it tells the last mafia who a vanilla townie is, meaning they can have an increased chance if they go after the jailer tonight (unless they go for Tinas or me, but presume if I survive today and am the cop I'll be the one protected). So I'd rather not do it unless its a last resort and it looks like I'm gonna get lynched
If 3 people (not including Tinas for obvious reasons) want me too then I will
Not necessarily. You just picked the same person as the jailkeeper. You could have both picked a mafia member. Let's say I am mafia, and you chose to investigate me, and the jailkeeper chose to block me (either to inhibit my mafia-ness, or to protect me). That would stop your power from working, but it wouldn't prove I was innocent--and in this case, I would not have been.
But if a jail keeper can't do himself that person is either a vanilla townie or a mafia, and if it's a mafia know who the mafia are , so if he isn't one then they are a vanilla...
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So the current standings are:
TINAS: 2 votes (Axxle, Ozle)
Ozle: 1 vote (TINAS)
Undecided: 4 votes (Robz, ftl, O, Davio).
We only need 4 votes for a majority instead of 5 of course.
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Ozle, will you name the person you investigated?
I will do if there is a consensus from people, if I do name them then it tells the last mafia who a vanilla townie is, meaning they can have an increased chance if they go after the jailer tonight (unless they go for Tinas or me, but presume if I survive today and am the cop I'll be the one protected). So I'd rather not do it unless its a last resort and it looks like I'm gonna get lynched
If 3 people (not including Tinas for obvious reasons) want me too then I will
Not necessarily. You just picked the same person as the jailkeeper. You could have both picked a mafia member. Let's say I am mafia, and you chose to investigate me, and the jailkeeper chose to block me (either to inhibit my mafia-ness, or to protect me). That would stop your power from working, but it wouldn't prove I was innocent--and in this case, I would not have been.
But if a jail keeper can't do himself that person is either a vanilla townie or a mafia, and if it's a mafia know who the mafia are , so if he isn't one then they are a vanilla...
I see. So the mafia will learn that the person you investigated, who was blocked, is not the jailkeeper. I'm not sure that's worth you not saying anything here, though.
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So the current standings are:
TINAS: 2 votes (Axxle, Ozle)
Ozle: 1 vote (TINAS)
Undecided: 4 votes (Robz, ftl, O, Davio).
We only need 4 votes for a majority instead of 5 of course.
Right, I'm nearly certain it's TINAS, and will cast that vote, but I guess it's rude to bring it so close to death when not everybody has checked in yet and TINAS hasn't had a chance to defend himself.
In the meantime, plan on reading lots of posts from me tooting my own horn regarding round 1. And I see that Axxle has tactically returned to the "TINAS is mafia camp." We could have used you yesterday when you deserted us, Mr. Axxle!
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I you assume I'm telling the truth, and we lynch the mafia role cop TINAS, then that leaves us with 5 and 1 mafia.
The mafia left will know I'm the cop obviously, so that's 1 out. Leaving 4 townies, giving him 25% to get the jailer. If I eliminate someone else, that becomes a 33% chance.
Difference isn't massive, but would rather wait for town consensus
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I wonder what FTL and O are going for?
Also I wonder if the thread gets in lockdown mode immediately after 4 votes are in or if there is an opportunity for the rest to cast their votes. Their votes are irrelevant of course, but maybe some people want to make it clear they're not bandwagoneers and vote someone else altogether.
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In the meantime, plan on reading lots of posts from me tooting my own horn regarding round 1.
I hope you're ready to eat those words and that horn along with them.
Defense is currently being compiled.
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Also, in the search for TINAS partner, I was suspicious of Robz, especially as he seems so keen to know who else is vanilla, but casting the third vote is either a sure fire townie move, or an incredibly risky mafia move as someone else could have come along and put the hammer down on his partner. So he is now off my list.
O seemed quite defensive of Tinas in the first day, which made me suspicious as I have been fairly sure of tinas all the way through. But he seemed to back up his reasons fairly well.
I assume at this delicate stage, the mafia partner will definitely not vote for his partner, so will have more info when this vote ends I suppose
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If one student fails a test, we blame the student, if several fail a test, we blame the teacher.
The jailkeeper, if it is in the game, works as follows.
The jailkeeper pms me the name of a player he would like to jail.
1. That player is protected from kills. That player is not protected from anything else, just kills.
2. That player fails any actions he tries to take the same night. If he tries to shoot someone, his target survives. If he tries to Cop someone, he gets no result. If he tries to Doc someone, his target isn't actually safe from anything. If he tries to Rolecop someone, he gets no result.
Vote count in a bit.
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Which means the jailkeeper used his power on Ozle, rather than Ozle's target.
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Oh, so I was jailed then not my target. So bangs goes that theory (no offence theory)
Your right then it doesn't matter who I investigated as they could still be anyone
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Ozle has a Steward that takes care of his Gardens for him. He loves the guy. It makes him 2$ if he needs it, and if he's got most of the money in his overgrown kingdom, he can walk through two more of his fiefs and hope to clear some Estates out of the day's cycle. How cool is that?
This is wrong, but I'll do it anyway.
Vote count:
TINAS: 2 votes (Axxle, Ozle)
Ozle: 1 vote (TINAS)
Undecided: 4 votes (Robz, ftl, O, Davio).
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Oh, so I was jailed then not my target. So bangs goes that theory (no offence theory)
Your right then it doesn't matter who I investigated as they could still be anyone
Right, so I'm just curious who you attempted to investigate, since it tells us nothing anyway.
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Yep, I went for, and I hope you won't hold this against me, you Robz. You seemed to be hedging a little bit too much
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Nah, not being defensive anymore. I'm happy to be lynched. I'm fine being randomly lynched as long as there is no REAL info going around because it means I can sit back and laugh at my team (read: town) for bringing it upon themselves for the rest of the game. And hey, chances are we are going to lynch one of our own, so may as well get rid of someone who doesn't have a power role. It could be worse, right?
Okay let's start with this. This is my supposed blunder. What I actually did with this post, was to accept that somebody has to be lynched on day one. I also pointed out, for the benefit of the new players in the game that may have forgotten, that THERE ARE TOWN MEMBERS WHO ARE MORE VALUABLE THAN OTHER TOWN MEMBERS. That is all. I obviously didn't say at this point "oh and by the way that valuable person is me", because what use is a cop that dies night 1? Seriously people, how is that any better than a cop that dies day 1?
Maybe I made a blunder. Then again, maybe I didn't?
(Not so) subtle hint that maybe you should re-read my previous post and think about it a bit. Obviously everybody re-read it and didn't think about it.
Gonna vote: Goober simply because it's about the only chance I have left of living. Despite my not-particularly-caring about death at this stage, I would still prefer to live.
This really was a desperate attempt to have someone else lynched, because you know, anyone dying is better for the town than the cop dying.
As I have already stated, I haven't acted strange at all. This is the way I am. Nobody has any information at the begining of a mafia game and random accusations fly. That's how it goes. And I like to joke around and have a bit of fun. You'll get it after a few games with me, and I completely understand if you don't get it now and want to lynch me for it. Go ahead, it's cool. But in the past, I've done some crazy stuff. I mean, I've claimed to be mafia with the first post of a game, survived the whole game because nobody believed me, and ended up winning... as mafia. When I had much more time on my hands than I do now, I invented the tactic of stalking the "currently online" list (as a mafia member) in the night phase, watching for people sending PMs. Great way to catch power roles right there. Hell, I've even stolen someone's identity on IRC and messaged other people about "who we should kill tonight", framing them to be lynched immeditaely. And I wasn't even mafia. I did it for laughs and man... it was hilarious.
But yeah, until you understand the way I play I might seem suspicious to you. I understand and as I've said, I'm more than happy to be lynched. It doesn't feel like a loss if I haven't had a chance to play. I've made a number of posts in this thread and I stand by everything I've said. If there's something that doesn't make sense to you then maybe I wasn't clear... or maybe you just don't understand... or maybe it's a combination of the two and hey, maybe there's a reason people post slightly cryptically in a game of mafia. It's a game of hidden information. You can try to put information out there to help your team mates but you can't be too open with it, there are bad guys out there too who have just as much access to that information. Not saying I've said anything purposefully cryptic in this game, but I'm just going to throw that out there for something for you guys to consider for the rest of this game and for future games.
And to answer to question of who I suspect... No idea. As I say, at this point in the game we have no information. We can read into things all we want but at the end of the day it's still going to be a pseudo random vote anyway. There's not really going to be anything out there to read anything real into, because nobody's stupid enough to give away their role before the game's even started. Having said that, we should totally lynch Theory for being an admin or Ozle for being so quick to jump on the bandwagon. Also they both voted for me. Total mafia tell.
And now that we've heard from Goober I am more than happy to unvote. That guy's pretty much cleared himself.
First paragraph here is exactly what it seems. It's just me throwing out examples of my previous play in an attempt to get you all to understand that I didn't do anything suspicious. I understand that my normal play style can seem suspicious to people who don't know me, so I really am just letting you guys get to know me a bit. Yeah, I made an enemy in Ftl (and possibly others) with this post, but hey. I'm me whether you know it or not.
Second paragraph is yet another (un)subtle hint that I have cryptically tried to get people to think about lynches a bit more carefully as not all townies are equal.
Third paragraph was maybe a slight mistake. At that point I was all like "meh, I don't need to work stuff out, I'm gonna get info at night anyway (if I live)", and that's why I was just shrugging off the idea of getting information from peoples' actions. But hey, if I weren't going to get info at night I would definitely not have shrugged this off. One more cop giveaway for the collection?
Fourth paragraph is exactly what it says. Goober finally made a post, and it made a LOT of sense.
BST (GMT+1) for me.
And I am well aware that I COULD be top of a mafia hitlist. But hey, not really my fault that I was forced into giving away so much information. But then again, maybe I'm not a mafia target because maybe the mafia think they can get away with letting me live and convincing you lot to lynch me. Afterall, if I survive day and night, I'm 100% mafia right? So I'm going to be lynched then anyway. So why do mafia need to waste their night kill on me?
Who knows? Maybe they hadn't throught about the situation I just explained, Maybe they were thinking of killing me and now they're going to let me live because I've just helped them to understand that that's a damn good thing to do. Maybe they're not. This is mafia. People don't always do the most obvious thing, because man, that's pretty obvious and gives away information. If you do something different, that people weren't expecting, they'll think about it. And they won't understand it. And they'll be confused and do the wrong thing. Maybe you can even get the other side to help your side by confusing them enough. Maybe not. Who knows. Let's see.
I was well aware that after what happened day one, (unexperienced) mafia would want to kill me. This post was simply a way of giving a potentially unexperienced mafia the experience that they needed to let me live. Hey, it worked.
Not at all.
I repeat "I've made a number of posts in this thread and I stand by everything I've said. If there's something that doesn't make sense to you then maybe I wasn't clear... or maybe you just don't understand... or maybe it's a combination of the two and hey, maybe there's a reason people post slightly cryptically in a game of mafia. It's a game of hidden information. You can try to put information out there to help your team mates but you can't be too open with it, there are bad guys out there too who have just as much access to that information. Not saying I've said anything purposefully cryptic in this game, but I'm just going to throw that out there for something for you guys to consider for the rest of this game and for future games."
Please go ahead and lynch me. It's cool. It's your own problem though. Afterall, I'll be dead.
At this point I was seriously considering just coming out as the cop immediately. Seriously, could my (un)suble hints become any less subtle? I didn't think they could. Now, I'm well aware that some of you are firm believers that an alive cop is so much better than a dead cop, and I agree, but once again I don't see the difference between a cop that dies night 1 and a cop that dies day 1. Neither can do anything to help their team at all, and this is why I waited.
To be honest, at this point I've pretty much said everything I have to say and I've definitely said everything I'm WILLING to say. I'm just gonna stay quiet(ish) for a while and let you guys make up your mind. It's all out in the open for you.
Yeah. I really am giving up hope here. One final (un)subtle hint here though. Note how I've said "pretty much everything" I have to say and "definitely everything" I'm WILLING to say. This was an important part of this post. I am not willing at this point to say that I am cop, for reasons I have already stated, but I do have it available to say.
Do you want me to just vote for myself?
I've done it many times, but in this case I won't do it, because it's not the right thing to do. If you want me gone, you'll have to do it yourselves.
The first post here was just out of pure frustration that nobody was "getting it", and I wanted it to end quickly so I could have a whole "you guys all suck and deserve what you get" moment for myself. The second post was me coming to the realisation that it actually wasn't the right thing to do. If I were plain townie I would have done it, killed myself, and stopped the potential disaster of turning it around to save myself and killing someone much more important instead. When I am the most important person for the Town, it is completely different.
I get it. Not really caring about being the first to die when my team is at a 2-7 disadvantage is much more likely than not caring when my team is 7-2 up. That's just silly. Nobody WANTS to be killed, not even me, but I don't mind being killed if it's the best possible outcome for my team. In this community, I'm not prepared to force that disadvantage on my own team, no matter how slight, while there's still a chance of the vote being turned around against the mafia. I've done it before on my old forum many times, but this community is different and I respect that.
As for not pointing the finger at anybody myself, sorry, I've been too busy trying not to get stabbed in the face by everybody else.
I stand by my support of everything Goober has said, and in particular one comment, which I will now repeat just to make sure it is not missed:
Whoever is mafia, both members have already voted for me or else I would already have been hammered.
I know that at this point I could still be mafia in which case that's not true blah blah blah whatever. This is why I want you all to remember this statement for when I am dead, and my innocense is proven.
In light of this fact, and Theory's desperation for me to start pointing the finger myself, I am more than happy to vote: Theory.
Now, I must get back to work. Already late.
Congrats if you turn my point around into something else and actually manage to convince that one extra person that you need to vote for me. However, if and when you do manage that, and my role is revealed, you can expect a quick admin lynching to be on the cards.
Hope you're prepared. I am.
These two posts are me spotting a chance at survival and grabbing it with both hands... and feet... and my penis. Obviously you're going to say mafia would do this too, so we'll just move on... apart from one thing. That thing about numbers and who would care most about being lynched. Yeah. If I were mafia, would I REALLY have been so carefree about giving up without a fight? Going 7-1 down is much, much, much, much, much, much, much worse than going 6-2 up but losing a guy that for all intents and purposes might not even be in the game at all as far as anyone else knows at this point.
My only 'mistake' was to respond to joking accusations "I know nothing but I think it's TIANS and Theory" with a joking rebuttal "Well I know it's not me so it must be Theory". Nothing else that I have said even comes close to being a mistake, no matter how many times you or anybody else says it does. If you don't get it, that's your fault, not mine.
Once again suggesting that maybe things that may not have made complete sense to people may have had other, (un)subtler meanings.
(Also, thanks guys. I'll make sure you don't regret it).
You let the cop live to see the first night. This is great news for the town, and believing I had convinced the mafia earlier not to kill me at night (because they can get me lynched day two anyway) I was fairly certain I was going to get at least (and probably at most) one night's worth of guaranteed hard facts. (Un)subtle hint here that I was going to do just that.
Also hoping our cop will subtly push us in the right direction... if he knows a right direction.
If we have a cop...
WINK WINK NUDGE NUDGE.
I am, too, suspicious of Axxle's hedging but mostly actually of Ftl. Ftl is the guy who wanted me gone because of the person I am, rather than anything game related, and then at the last minute seemed fine to swing completely the other way and drop the hammer on Theory with no real reasoning. I'd like to hear from Ftl about why he did this?
Seriously was (and still am) suspicious of these two. Trying to coax out posts from them which could potentially link either to Ozle before I drop the news.
I look forward to your full analysis. Also still interested in hearing from Ftl. Probably Axxle too.
95% certain O is good at this point.
Once again, trying to get someone to forge a link with Ozle.
Okay let's do this. Was gonna wait for Ozle and Axxle to make a post but I don't really think we need it...
I'm the cop. I need to reveal at some point today regardless (of whether I'm a likely lynch target or not), because if I don't there's a good chance I will be killed at night and will have missed my chance to reveal. Since I know both mafia members had voted for me yesterday (hence the lack of hammer on me), I last night investigated Ozle. 100% no strings guarantee, he is mafia.
With that out of the way that leaves the last mafia being either Ftl or Robz. I also am slightly suspicious of Axxle but he had a chance to hammer me (he posted when he wasn't on the bandwagon for me and there were 4 votes for me), and didn't take it. In my mind, that pretty much rules him out. That leaves it down to Ftl, who I have voiced my suspicions of earlier, and Robz, who doesn't seem so suspicious, but has played before and may be good at covering himself. Maybe we can work together to figure it out?
But for now: vote: Ozle.
It's time for everyone to start searching for Ozle-accomplices. Maybe delay the lynch a bit to give us some time to think, and when I die tonight (do we have a docor? Oh boy do I hope we have a doctor) I wish the rest of the town the best of luck.
Once again I am sorry for getting Theory killed, but at the end of the day, it was better than losing me. I promised I would make it worth your while and I am now delivering.
And.... there we go. Boom.
Notice also that as soon as I dropped this bomb, Ozle has become immediately defensive. This was obviously always going to happen, but his posts are short and abrupt. It seems that he is having so many thoughts rushing around in his head now the truth has come up out of nowhere and smacked him in the face with an atomic bomb. He can't seem to make a calm, collected and thought out post. Instead he posts anything and everything that pops up into his head that might have a slight possibility of saving him.
And for the record, if I knew he were mafia rolecop, would I have kept that information private? Of course I wouldn't. That would just be pointless. But I did not know he was rolecop until he started using that as a defence because he couldn't think of anything better at the time. How could I have known? I'm a cop, not a rolecop. What sort of a person would get the strange idea that a role that they are claiming to be could discover not only the allegiance, but also the role of their target. Oh yes, that's right, a rolecop. Defensive blunder. Game over.
More than happy to answer any questions anyone may have. Please don't be too quick to hammer anyone, even Ozle. We've got time to think and plan.
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Yep, I went for, and I hope you won't hold this against me, you Robz. You seemed to be hedging a little bit too much
I don't hold it against you, but hedging? Me? I have done no hedging! I went after TINAS and have not once deviated. I defended theory and did not once deviate. And I don't know why you would suspect me when I was the only living person on your side from the TINAS voters. But fine.
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TINAS, if you had defended yourself this well last round, you wouldn't even be in this situation. Ugh. This might be harder call than I thought.
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He knows I am the Cop, not quite sure how he does maybe I gave it away
So either a lucky guess or he knew I would investigate him and find out he is Mafia (except I didn't, because I was already convinced).
Im not sure how he knew I was the cop, must have let something slip earlier.
Desperation defence. "He knows I'm cop which is why he's claiming cop". Yeah, that makes sense. How is it that I know you're cop? Oh yeah, that's right, you have no idea how I could know that but I definitely know that. You say maybe you slipped up earlier to reveal you are cop. I challenge you to find where you said anything that would tell me that you are cop. I guarantee you have said nothing of the sort since... you know... you're not the cop.
Just thought of another thing:
Quote by TINAS
" I last night investigated Ozle. 100% no strings guarantee, he is mafia"
And then a bit later he says I am a mafia rolecop:
"Ozle's post confirms the mafia rolecop has found that we have a jailkeeper"
If TINAS KNOWS im a mafia, why would he not also reveal earlier on that he also knew I was a Mafia Rolecop, only offering this information AFTER i pointed out I could prove I investigated someone, surely if he knew I was a rolecop he would be ready for me to come back and say i investigated someone, but fails to mention this until i put up my claim that I investigated someone.
I know I mentioned it (twice) earlier but I just want to quote this for emphasis. The reason I did not out Ozle as mafia rolecop is because I did not know he was. If Ozle really is cop, consider how he could have made this serious blunder about how his own role works.
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And one final thing to think about for now. What's more likely?
A. Mafia claiming cop, outing a guy as mafia who just so happens to be the cop who just so happens to conveniently get jailkept all at the same time.
B. Cop outing mafia. Mafia retaliating with a mirror defence.
Just throwing it out there.
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Nah, not being defensive anymore. I'm happy to be lynched. I'm fine being randomly lynched as long as there is no REAL info going around because it means I can sit back and laugh at my team (read: town) for bringing it upon themselves for the rest of the game. And hey, chances are we are going to lynch one of our own, so may as well get rid of someone who doesn't have a power role. It could be worse, right?
Okay let's start with this. This is my supposed blunder. What I actually did with this post, was to accept that somebody has to be lynched on day one. I also pointed out, for the benefit of the new players in the game that may have forgotten, that THERE ARE TOWN MEMBERS WHO ARE MORE VALUABLE THAN OTHER TOWN MEMBERS. That is all. I obviously didn't say at this point "oh and by the way that valuable person is me", because what use is a cop that dies night 1? Seriously people, how is that any better than a cop that dies day 1?
I dont see how this is a rebuttal, it says pretty clearly there that you dont mind being lynched because its better that you are lynched as your a vanilla townie. All that 'implied' stuff you say you have posted doesnt really add up to much,
This is your big defence, that you were implying you were a cop all along? But so subtly nobody picked up on it? All you have done is try to go back and weasel the meaning of your words trying now it seems to claim that you were onto me from the start!, while your much awaited defence has absolutely no evidence im a mafia except for the fact that I got defensive when you called me mafia using the claim you were the cop! Well, duuuh! Oh and the fact I thought investigating someone would reveal what they did, if I wasn't jailed I would have known that!
So your basic defence is that you knew I was Mafia all along, and tried to weasel more information out of me and the other mafia, except then all of a sudden you decide to switch tactic, even though you dont have this information you were trying to get you decide to try and out me.
So to sum your points against me: I got defensive and didn't know the difference between a cop and a rolecop
My points to you: You got caught in a blatant lie saying you were vanilla townie when about to be lynched, and now claiming you are a cop along.
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Yep, I went for, and I hope you won't hold this against me, you Robz. You seemed to be hedging a little bit too much
I don't hold it against you, but hedging? Me? I have done no hedging! I went after TINAS and have not once deviated. I defended theory and did not once deviate. And I don't know why you would suspect me when I was the only living person on your side from the TINAS voters. But fine.
Hedging was probably the wrong word, I think possibly because you came out strongly for Theory (even before I did) but were slower than me to cast the vote which made me a bit suspicious (but because all the attention was on Theory and TINAS I was not really sure who to investigate). After your third vote for TINAS today (even though you have since withdrawn it) I am pretty sure you are town (or too clever a mafia for me to work out)
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And one final thing to think about for now. What's more likely?
A. Mafia claiming cop, outing a guy as mafia who just so happens to be the cop who just so happens to conveniently get jailkept all at the same time.
B. Cop outing mafia. Mafia retaliating with a mirror defence.
Just throwing it out there.
Not sure how either of these are too different, as we are both either rolecop and cop. And we know for sure you investigated me and then pre-emptively claimed i was a Cop to get in first. (I presume you assumed I investigated you)
At least the jailkeeper will know im not lying!
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I'm not denying that I claimed I was a vanilla townie. I am saying that I made a very clear attempt wth that post to make people think seriously about the fact that there are power roles in the game, and not just to bandwagon anybody. It was subtle, but the fact that I referred back to it so many more times during the topic very clearly implies that I knew what I was doing. It was not a mistake. I knew if I could turn around the vote, then it would be much better for me to be "a vanilla townie" than "the cop" in everybody else's eyes (note that those eyes include the eyes of the mafia). It worked.
I survived and as the mafia had no reason... you know what I'm going to start this sentece again
I survived and as YOU had no reason to suspect I was the cop, I survived the night. Hooray, I've lived longer and acheived more than a cop who outs themselves to survive a lynch on day one.
Keep digging.
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And one final thing to think about for now. What's more likely?
A. Mafia claiming cop, outing a guy as mafia who just so happens to be the cop who just so happens to conveniently get jailkept all at the same time.
B. Cop outing mafia. Mafia retaliating with a mirror defence.
Just throwing it out there.
Not sure how either of these are too different, as we are both either rolecop and cop. And we know for sure you investigated me and then pre-emptively claimed i was a Cop to get in first. (I presume you assumed I investigated you)
At least the jailkeeper will know im not lying!
I really want to know where you think I picked up that you are a cop. And I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you mistyped when you claimed that I claimed you are cop.
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You can make as many repetitive posts as you like, you've been caught lying (and are now owning up to it I see), Ive caught you changing your story several times now. Its really that simple.
You investigated me as the rolecop because now theory is gone you knew I would be leading the charge against you, when you found out that I was the cop you did the only tactic left to you which is the pre-emptive strike as you knew I would again be leading a charge against you. If you really were the cop, you would have left it to try and bring out more information about accomplices (like you claim you were doing, except you were not really. )
if you truely were looking for info on accomplices you would have at least waited for everyone else to post before you claimed I was Mafia, not make the claim after only a few posts.
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And one final thing to think about for now. What's more likely?
A. Mafia claiming cop, outing a guy as mafia who just so happens to be the cop who just so happens to conveniently get jailkept all at the same time.
B. Cop outing mafia. Mafia retaliating with a mirror defence.
Just throwing it out there.
Not sure how either of these are too different, as we are both either rolecop and cop. And we know for sure you investigated me and then pre-emptively claimed i was a Cop to get in first. (I presume you assumed I investigated you)
At least the jailkeeper will know im not lying!
I really want to know where you think I picked up that you are a cop. And I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here and assume that you mistyped when you claimed that I claimed you are cop.
Clearly you know im a cop, the mistype is at the end where ive got so use to typing cop and should be mafia. (damn no edit)
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Just thought of another thing:
Quote by TINAS
" I last night investigated Ozle. 100% no strings guarantee, he is mafia"
And then a bit later he says I am a mafia rolecop:
"Ozle's post confirms the mafia rolecop has found that we have a jailkeeper"
If TINAS KNOWS im a mafia, why would he not also reveal earlier on that he also knew I was a Mafia Rolecop, only offering this information AFTER i pointed out I could prove I investigated someone, surely if he knew I was a rolecop he would be ready for me to come back and say i investigated someone, but fails to mention this until i put up my claim that I investigated someone.
TO be fair, he might not know how Cop works because he has never successfully used his power. He was roleblocked.
I know I mentioned it (twice) earlier but I just want to quote this for emphasis. The reason I did not out Ozle as mafia rolecop is because I did not know he was. If Ozle really is cop, consider how he could have made this serious blunder about how his own role works.
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Just thought of another thing:
Quote by TINAS
" I last night investigated Ozle. 100% no strings guarantee, he is mafia"
And then a bit later he says I am a mafia rolecop:
"Ozle's post confirms the mafia rolecop has found that we have a jailkeeper"
If TINAS KNOWS im a mafia, why would he not also reveal earlier on that he also knew I was a Mafia Rolecop, only offering this information AFTER i pointed out I could prove I investigated someone, surely if he knew I was a rolecop he would be ready for me to come back and say i investigated someone, but fails to mention this until i put up my claim that I investigated someone.
TO be fair, he might not know how Cop works because he has never successfully used his power. He was roleblocked.
I know I mentioned it (twice) earlier but I just want to quote this for emphasis. The reason I did not out Ozle as mafia rolecop is because I did not know he was. If Ozle really is cop, consider how he could have made this serious blunder about how his own role works.
Posted this again because my last post was wrongly quoted.
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Ugh, okay, ignore my last two posts. The quoting was all wrong.
I was trying to say that Ozle's mistake about the cop role is rational, because he did not succesfully use it last night.
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Pre-edit: This is at Ozle.
Don't you think if I were pre-emptively striking you I would have done it as soon as I possibly could have done during this game day? Do you really think I would have waited for you to post a semi-lengthy analysis and urged you to post a full analysis, giving you the perfect opportunity to make your cop claims first?
Obviously it's stupid asking these questions directly to you. You know exactly what is going on and clearly aren't going to give the truthful answers, but maybe others can think about these questions too.
And if I were mafia, in all seriousness, there is no way I'd be scared of you leading a charge gainst me. Why would I be scared of the guy who's been happy to hop on bandwagons and follow others' leads all through day one. The guy who's done no thinking for himself and just copied the points made by others. No. If I were scared of anyone leading the charge against me, it'd be Robz or Ftl. Certainly not you.
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The Duchess skips a Copper across the lake, testing the waters.
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As I was doing the dishes and was trying to explain the situation to my wife - I tell her about the game because I think it's funny and it helps me sort my thoughts - I had this paranoid idea: What if TINAS and Ozle are both mafia?!?
Maybe they're playing the "sacrifice one, let the other one win" game. If we lynch one, we may end up believing the other 'till the end. The one we lynch will always be mafia, solidifying our trust in the other. The other can always go: "You see? You should trust me, I told you he was mafia!"
I don't know if this makes any sense, but I just wanted to throw the idea out there, not to create confusion, but to share.
And well, if it ends up being right, I'll be the first who said it. :P
If I'm just seeing ghosts everywhere, well, forget it and move on. ;D
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If you lynch one of us and we are mafia, you can 99% expect the other mafia member to kill the survivor almost immediately because, obviously, they don't want the cop around. If that doesn't happen... well then you pretty much have your answer. That's not to say that I want you to lynch Ozle, find out he was mafia, and then the other mafia doesn't kill me because he's read this and then you all lynch me. That would just be silly. But if that's the way it goes then I'm more than happy to have outed one mafia and have one more shot at the other.
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Well, TINAS's claim would explain why he was acting so shifty the whole first day. We were looking for people who were acting a role instead of being honest, and TINAS was in fact acting out a role instead of being honest.
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What I wanted to post a few hours ago:
Clearly one of either Ozle or TINAS is mafia. The clear first suspicion is to kill the counterclaim first, and then kill the claim if we're wrong. Unfortunately we have very little leeway in incorrect lynches. If we vote incorrectly, we're likely down to 3 townies 2 mafia, and then 2 townies 1 mafia. Which isn't *terrible* when you factor in the chances of aid by a role but isn't great either.
So if TINAS if roleclaiming cop when he's really mafia, basically he's guaranteeing the Mafia a 60% chance of that happening, and a 40% chance of being 4-1 next round if we lynch him instead, which is pretty bad for mafia (especially because we have 2 roles out). So if TINAS is mafia he's playing his role pretty poorly.
But if TINAS is cop.. idk what the hell he was doing the first day. Maybe he really, really thought roleclaiming would be the death of him anyways, and he had a chance this way?
I feel that us targeting the cop first round (with Mafia influence to direct us to townies) is slightly more believable than the Mafia claiming cop and claiming to investigate the real cop. So I'm probably going to vote for Ozle unless someone can convince me otherwise.
But if I vote Ozle, we lynch Ozle, and TINAS mafia, Town's almost certainly lost... because it's pretty hard to believe I wouldn't be lynched after TINAS (I *have* supported him way more than I normally do as a townie) in the 2-1 situation. I can't imagine Mafia killing me either for that reason, so my guess is that we almost certainly lose if we vote to lynch Ozle and then TINAS is mafia (unless you all believe me!!! <3)
But then.. Why would I do that if I were actually mafia? I would totally give away myself and ruin Mafia's chances. Just consider how terrible mafia we'd have to be as a pair if me and TINAS were mafia.
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Well, TINAS's claim would explain why he was acting so shifty the whole first day. We were looking for people who were acting a role instead of being honest, and TINAS was in fact acting out a role instead of being honest.
Not sure I understand this, he is more likely to be a Cop because he brought suspicion on himself?
I have been assuming power roles want to keep themselves a bit in the background so as not to be targeted by Mafia and not lynched early, which is what almost happened to TINAS
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I feel that us targeting the cop first round (with Mafia influence to direct us to townies) is slightly more believable than the Mafia claiming cop and claiming to investigate the real cop. So I'm probably going to vote for Ozle unless someone can convince me otherwise.
I think you're mixed up there. Ozle did not claim to be cop and say that he investigated TINAS. He says his investigation failed because of roleblock. In order for TINAS to be telling the the truth, he did not come out first round when he was almost dead, and he scored a successful mafia investigation last night. I think TINAS has the more extraordinary claim.
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I feel that us targeting the cop first round (with Mafia influence to direct us to townies) is slightly more believable than the Mafia claiming cop and claiming to investigate the real cop. So I'm probably going to vote for Ozle unless someone can convince me otherwise.
To clarify, nobody has claimed to investigate the Cop.
TINAS claims he investigated me, I claim I investigated Robz and got Jailed.
I can't believe TINAS is even remotely going to get away with this.
if you were the cop and you investigated someone and found out they were Mafia, would you out them virtually straight away?! Or would you keep that info to yourself for a while and try to get more information?
And if you were the Mafia Rolecop, and found out the person thats been suspicious and accusing you all along was a cop, wouldn't you be more likely to name them quick so it looks like they are counter claiming?
All thats happened here is the Mafia rolecop has got lucky and investigated the Cop on the first night.
He has already lied to you all once, proven fact. And got Theory lynched just because he voted for him
(and im lookiing desperate here for the Jailer to somehow back me up that I was in Jail!)
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(and im lookiing desperate here for the Jailer to somehow back me up that I was in Jail!)
The Jailkeeper should remain silent! Unless you are lying.
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To clarify, nobody has claimed to investigate the Cop.
Correct. However you claim that I have investigated the cop. Thanks for debunking your own defense.
And if you were the Mafia Rolecop, and found out the person thats been suspicious and accusing you all along was a cop, wouldn't you be more likely to name them quick so it looks like they are counter claiming?
So you agree you've been suspicious all along? And no. If I were a mafia role cop and I investigated the real cop, I would not try to get them lynched. I would get them killed the following night.
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I think you're mixed up there. Ozle did not claim to be cop and say that he investigated TINAS. He says his investigation failed because of roleblock. In order for TINAS to be telling the the truth, he did not come out first round when he was almost dead, and he scored a successful mafia investigation last night. I think TINAS has the more extraordinary claim.
I can't stress this enough!
Day 1:
TINAS acts suspicious
Theory votes for TINAS because he is acting suspicious.
TINAS about to get lynched, offers to vote for himself but doesn't
Then claims its ok if he does get lynched because he is only a vanilla townie
Sucessfully shifts suspicion Theory.
Theory the vanilla townie gets lynched.
I dont think anybody is disputing the timeline above are they? The reasons for the various points are up for interpretation as to why people have done that (which is why I have not put them down), but thats what happened!
So onto disputed night time, which of these do you think is more likely it comes down too:
A) TINAS claims to have struck lucky and found the mafia at night, and decides to out him right away. WHY would you not wait and gather evidence on the other mafia!!
B) Mafia Rolecop finds the cop and claims he is mafia right away, getting in first because he knows that only I can claim a cop to prove him a liar and my counterclaim looks weak because of this
A) just doesnt make sense for a person who knows this game well!
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I am certainly disputing that timeline. Did not happen in that order at all.
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I feel that us targeting the cop first round (with Mafia influence to direct us to townies) is slightly more believable than the Mafia claiming cop and claiming to investigate the real cop. So I'm probably going to vote for Ozle unless someone can convince me otherwise.
I think you're mixed up there. Ozle did not claim to be cop and say that he investigated TINAS. He says his investigation failed because of roleblock. In order for TINAS to be telling the the truth, he did not come out first round when he was almost dead, and he scored a successful mafia investigation last night. I think TINAS has the more extraordinary claim.
I believe you're mixed up ;). TINAS claimed to be a cop and said Ozle was mafia. It's unlikely (though possible) that TINAS managed, as a mafia member, to claim cop then implicate the cop.
At least, I'm 99% sure TINAS roleclaimed first.. I could have missed a post.
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While on Day 1 TINAS was definitely suspicious, I think today Ozle is definitely more suspicious.
There was
Yep, I went for, and I hope you won't hold this against me, you Robz. You seemed to be hedging a little bit too much
when I think Robz hasn't ever hedged anything at all - he's been hammering TINAS from the start, perhaps even too much so.
Well, I suppose in general Ozle looks like he's sort of panicked. That's understandable, so I wouldn't put too much stock in today's confusion, but doesn't it seem weird to investigate Robz? That's a decision he should have made before, with a clear head, and it just seems strange to me. Robz's been pretty straightforward, I thought, in his attacks on TINAS.
Also, on day 1 Ozle said
I stil can't see past TINAS, if he is not mafia then I really don't understand this game!
Then why on earth would he ever investigate Robz? When Robz's been hammering TINAS the entire time? In all the first day, Ozle never voiced any suspicion of Robz, at all. Ozle even QUOTED Robz's statements as an accurate summary of current events, at post http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2540.msg40061#msg40061 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2540.msg40061#msg40061) . Then Theory was lynched, which was certainly NOT a reason to investigate Robz, because Robz hadn't voted for Theory, and in fact was vehemently against lynching Theory.
(Really, that's seeming the worst to me right now. All of day 1, Ozle posts no suspicions of Robz as far as I can find, even agrees with him on things, and yet day 2 he's claiming that as the cop, he investigated Robz at night? And not one of the people who voted for Theory, a confirmed innocent?)
I strongly suspect Ozle is one of the Mafia, now.
Whereas TINAS's reasons for investigating Ozle make sense. Ozle was the next person to vote for TINAS after Theory, making it a real bandwagon that was close to completion. TINAS's prime investigation choices would be among the people who voted for him basically, and Theory was dead, and goober who suspected TINAS was also dead, leaving Ozle and Robz as targets for investigation.
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I think my logic was pretty clear. I am now highly suspicious of Robz for misdirecting my statement, and Ozle aswell (though I was already suspicious).
My logic: ASSUME that TINAS is Mafia. Then TINAS made a Roleclaim as Cop, a role that isn't even necessarily in the game, and magically accused the person who is actually cop still a role that isn't even necessarily in the game.
Likely? I think not! It seems far more reasonable that TINAS didn't want to reveal his cop-status day one, and now Ozle is counterclaiming because he got caught.
Vote: Ozle
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I think my logic was pretty clear. I am now highly suspicious of Robz for misdirecting my statement, and Ozle aswell (though I was already suspicious).
My logic: ASSUME that TINAS is Mafia. Then TINAS made a Roleclaim as Cop, a role that isn't even necessarily in the game, and magically accused the person who is actually cop still a role that isn't even necessarily in the game.
Likely? I think not! It seems far more reasonable that TINAS didn't want to reveal his cop-status day one, and now Ozle is counterclaiming because he got caught.
Vote: Ozle
Tinas knew the Cop was in the game though as he had investigated me...so all he has to now do is to claim he is the cop and im stuck!
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I think my logic was pretty clear. I am now highly suspicious of Robz for misdirecting my statement, and Ozle aswell (though I was already suspicious).
My logic: ASSUME that TINAS is Mafia. Then TINAS made a Roleclaim as Cop, a role that isn't even necessarily in the game, and magically accused the person who is actually cop still a role that isn't even necessarily in the game.
Likely? I think not! It seems far more reasonable that TINAS didn't want to reveal his cop-status day one, and now Ozle is counterclaiming because he got caught.
Vote: Ozle
Tinas knew the Cop was in the game though as he had investigated me...so all he has to now do is to claim he is the cop and im stuck!
I didn't quite remember that we had a Rolecop in this game... this changes things...
Unvote (though my suspicions still say Ozle)
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I think my logic was pretty clear. I am now highly suspicious of Robz for misdirecting my statement, and Ozle aswell (though I was already suspicious).
My logic: ASSUME that TINAS is Mafia. Then TINAS made a Roleclaim as Cop, a role that isn't even necessarily in the game, and magically accused the person who is actually cop still a role that isn't even necessarily in the game.
Likely? I think not! It seems far more reasonable that TINAS didn't want to reveal his cop-status day one, and now Ozle is counterclaiming because he got caught.
Vote: Ozle
Tinas knew the Cop was in the game though as he had investigated me...so all he has to now do is to claim he is the cop and im stuck!
I didn't quite remember that we had a Rolecop in this game... this changes things...
Unvote (though my suspicions still say Ozle)
I can see how that would!
I understand your suspicion, but ill still reiterate one of my main points. If you were the cop, and you got lucky investigated a mafia would you come right out and say it?
If you believe someone would instead of trying to get information first, then im not sure what else I can say that you would believe, as this is a clear pointed to me (that and the vanilla claim, if he had known there was a cop in the game on the first day im pretty sure he would have claimed it then!)
Anyways, just off to bed now (Did the forum go down for anyone else? Stuck around for ages waiting for it to come back up in case I missed something due to going to bed)
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yeah, the forum went down for a bit
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Then why on earth would he ever investigate Robz? When Robz's been hammering TINAS the entire time? In all the first day, Ozle never voiced any suspicion of Robz, at all. Ozle even QUOTED Robz's statements as an accurate summary of current events, at post http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2540.msg40061#msg40061 (http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=2540.msg40061#msg40061) . Then Theory was lynched, which was certainly NOT a reason to investigate Robz, because Robz hadn't voted for Theory, and in fact was vehemently against lynching Theory.
(Really, that's seeming the worst to me right now. All of day 1, Ozle posts no suspicions of Robz as far as I can find, even agrees with him on things, and yet day 2 he's claiming that as the cop, he investigated Robz at night? And not one of the people who voted for Theory, a confirmed innocent?)
Yeah, I would have believed Ozle, and I still do (I think?), but this really bothers me. I don't know why he would investigate me. I was the only person on his side other than the guy we (wrongly) lynched. So it seems real, real weird to investigate me at all.
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I think we have to go with standard mafia policy, even with a rolecop: lynch the counterclaim first..
Plus it's quiet.
re-Vote: Ozle
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Still recovering from a full day of travel, but it looks like there's a lot to sift through. For now UNVOTE
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I tried to reply to this last night and then the forum went down...
I think you're mixed up there. Ozle did not claim to be cop and say that he investigated TINAS. He says his investigation failed because of roleblock. In order for TINAS to be telling the the truth, he did not come out first round when he was almost dead, and he scored a successful mafia investigation last night. I think TINAS has the more extraordinary claim.
I can't stress this enough!
Day 1:
TINAS acts suspicious
Theory votes for TINAS because he is acting suspicious.
TINAS about to get lynched, offers to vote for himself but doesn't
Then claims its ok if he does get lynched because he is only a vanilla townie
Sucessfully shifts suspicion Theory.
Theory the vanilla townie gets lynched.
I dont think anybody is disputing the timeline above are they? The reasons for the various points are up for interpretation as to why people have done that (which is why I have not put them down), but thats what happened!
So onto disputed night time, which of these do you think is more likely it comes down too:
A) TINAS claims to have struck lucky and found the mafia at night, and decides to out him right away. WHY would you not wait and gather evidence on the other mafia!!
B) Mafia Rolecop finds the cop and claims he is mafia right away, getting in first because he knows that only I can claim a cop to prove him a liar and my counterclaim looks weak because of this
A) just doesnt make sense for a person who knows this game well!
First of all, I dispute the timeline above. I "claimed" I was vanilla townie way way way before I offered to lynch myself. I've already explained those actions though so I'm not going in to is all again and I certainly don't need to justify anything to you.
Then we have the "which is more likely?" bit. Well, let's think about it.
A) In this assumption, I AM cop. Therefore I am not mafia. Therefore, mine and Goober's points during day 1 that both mafia had voted for me or else I would have been hammered holds true. Therefore, the mafia are two of Theory, Ozle, Robz, Ftl. Theory was dead. Basic probability: 2/3, with the chance to be improved slightly with some logical thinking.
B) In this assumption I am the mafia rolecop. After Theory has died there are 7 other players in the game. One is my mafia partner. Another I know will be killed tonight. That leaves 5 players, one of which is the cop. Basic probability: 1/5. The only way these odds could be increased is if you gave off a tell that you are cop during day one. You claim you did. I have challenged you to find where you have done this and you have yet to do so.
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TINAS, my biggest problem with your claim is this: I can't believe you wouldn't come out as cop when your death appeared imminent at 4 votes. It was likely that we were playing with doctor or jailkeeper, in which case you would have been saved in the night and we would have been in decent-ish shape.
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I understand that concern, and I tried to address it earlier. I don't feel the same. There's a 1/3 chance that we don't have either, and even in the case we have a jailkeeper (which, apparently, we do), what real use is a cop who's oly hope of survival is to be roleblocked every night? I just felt that the chances of me getting real hard information at night would be to shut up and turn it around in other ways. Which I did. So what's the problem?
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Yeah, I would have believed Ozle, and I still do (I think?), but this really bothers me. I don't know why he would investigate me. I was the only person on his side other than the guy we (wrongly) lynched. So it seems real, real weird to investigate me at all.
He wouldn't investigate you, I really think he's lying and you're his accomplice.
I don't believe much of Ozle's posts after TINAS' claim, they're typical of mafia in trouble.
It's pretty obvious at this point that it's between Ozle an TINAS, but I'm thinking ahead. I think TINAS would be a more valuable ally than Ozle in the end. So even if I'm 50/50 between TINAS and Ozle, I'm going to pick TINAS' side hoping he doesn't get killed during the night.
Worst case, we're still 3-2 up after the night and we know who's mafia so we can go 2-1 up going into the last day. This gives us a pretty good chance at offing the last mafia.
Go team town!
Vote: Ozle
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I understand that concern, and I tried to address it earlier. I don't feel the same. There's a 1/3 chance that we don't have either, and even in the case we have a jailkeeper (which, apparently, we do), what real use is a cop who's oly hope of survival is to be roleblocked every night? I just felt that the chances of me getting real hard information at night would be to shut up and turn it around in other ways. Which I did. So what's the problem?
I understand your explanation, it's just... absolutely not what I would do in that situation. I would be mortified of going out first round, when I had a pocket Ace that would essentially acquit and give me good odds of surviving the night.
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Yeah, I would have believed Ozle, and I still do (I think?), but this really bothers me. I don't know why he would investigate me. I was the only person on his side other than the guy we (wrongly) lynched. So it seems real, real weird to investigate me at all.
He wouldn't investigate you, I really think he's lying and you're his accomplice.
I don't believe much of Ozle's posts after TINAS' claim, they're typical of mafia in trouble.
It's pretty obvious at this point that it's between Ozle an TINAS, but I'm thinking ahead. I think TINAS would be a more valuable ally than Ozle in the end. So even if I'm 50/50 between TINAS and Ozle, I'm going to pick TINAS' side hoping he doesn't get killed during the night.
Worst case, we're still 3-2 up after the night and we know who's mafia so we can go 2-1 up going into the last day. This gives us a pretty good chance at offing the last mafia.
Go team town!
Vote: Ozle
Well, I think you're TINAS's likely mafia accomplice. If he's mafia. I'm very torn on the TINAS/Ozle situation, because there are aspects I dislike of both their cases.
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I understand your explanation, it's just... absolutely not what I would do in that situation. I would be mortified of going out first round, when I had a pocket Ace that would essentially acquit and give me good odds of surviving the night.
Well yeah. We have different backgrounds of mafia before coming into this game. We play in different ways. I accept that. It's cool.
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Heh, I wanted to say something along the lines of: "We would've made a great mafia team" to TINAS.
But this was before the role reshuffle.
I know I'm townie and I think he could well be as well.
Also your reply is typical mafia lashback behavior. Accuse mafia and get accused yourself. The curtains have fallen.
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I know I'm townie and I think he could well be as well.
Would be pretty epic if I'd caused all this and were just a townie. Alas I am a mere cop.
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Guys, guys, we'll have plenty of time to figure out which one of you two to lynch *after* this round! 8)
FYI other roleguy: If we lynch Ozle and he's mafia, save TINAS (pretty clearly). If we lynch Ozle and find out TINA is mafia.. well then save the person who currently has the *least* suspicion on him, as he's most likely to be lynched
Protip: Thats me!!!
Unless I'm secretly that special role and pro-trolling right now
Unless I'm a really really pro mafia that somehow got people to trust me (Protip #2: I'm not!)
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Heh, I wanted to say something along the lines of: "We would've made a great mafia team" to TINAS.
But this was before the role reshuffle.
I know I'm townie and I think he could well be as well.
Also your reply is typical mafia lashback behavior. Accuse mafia and get accused yourself. The curtains have fallen.
At least I don't have a track record of convincing the town to kill people who were obviously innocent.
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Have no reason to lie about who I investigated, whether I was mafia or cop as I got no results anyway. I could easily have picked a name out of a hat!
If I was mafia and investigated Robz it's more likely I would lie about, unless it's a double bluff. But then why would I risk it?
There's not a lot more I can say on this, I'm off to work now.
One of of us has a track record of lying to people in this thread, and it's not me!!
Sure he back claims there is reasons to it all, but I've not had to make back claims because I have been straight all the way through.
Alas it looks like I could be lynched by the time I finish work, so if I regrettably am, take a long hard look at those people who are ignoring TINAS completely and just focusing on me...as one of them are likely to be the other Mafia...
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Really? Your explanation for why you checked on Robz is that you picked a name out of a hat?
You should have had at least some reasoning for why you picked him! I mean, if you were the cop, you would have had reasons to pick him instead of someone else.
...eh, I guess you've just given up.
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No I mean if I was lying about who I investigated I may as well of picked names out of a hat because I got no results and there would be no way to check up on it.
If I was going to lie about it I would assumedly picked TINAS (although not sure as I'm not in that position)
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Still waiting for Ozle to provide details of his cop tell(s) from day one.
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No I mean if I was lying about who I investigated I may as well of picked names out of a hat because I got no results and there would be no way to check up on it.
If I was going to lie about it I would assumedly picked TINAS (although not sure as I'm not in that position)
As for this, well you obviously have picked a name out of the hat, because there is no other explanation for why you would investigate the person you named.
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Still, (trying to) investigate Robz seems like a bogus move to me.
Why not TINAS? He's one of the most confusing players.
It seems to me that having info on him whether he is mafia or town is pretty valuable.
Instead you picked Robz for god knows what reason.
You then allegedly got 'no result', meaning someone had jailed you, but who (before this) would have jailed you?
I can understand TINAS investigating a random character and getting lucky a lot better than you NOT picking TINAS.
You didn't even initially know why you got 'no result'. I think a real cop would try to find out everything about his role and would know which results he would get on which occasions.
Your story just has too many holes for me and everytime you post, the holes get bigger.
Accusing Robz is just collateral damage, I don't know for sure whether he is your accomplice or not, but he's a likely candidate as he's essentially forming a camp with you.
And then he lashes out with At least I don't have a track record of convincing the town to kill people who were obviously innocent.
.
Theory wasn't obviously innocent. If I would've been the only one voting for him, I can understand this reasoning. I wasn't and Theory hardly did anything to prevent himself from being lynch. Every single time I accused him, he dodged it to throw everything on TINAS. Never once he tried to clear himself calmly. And how does 1 lynch compose a track record? Moreover, it was the first one where you never have enough info. Your agitated comment shows a sense of desperation... as if your buddy was about to be lynched...
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Still waiting for Ozle to provide details of his cop tell(s) from day one.
I don't know if I gave anything away about being the cop, or whether you just role copped me because I was gunning for you. Only you can explain why you decided to investigate me after you claimed I was no treat to you!
I don't think I did anything that made me look like mafia on day 1, nobody voted for me and nobody hardly raised my name in suspicion. Yet you choose to investigate me ?
Why would you do that?
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David,
I didn't investigate TINA'S because I was already pretty sure he was guilty, and on today's evidence it appears that has proven right.
And why would it be ok for TINAS to investigate a random person? Can't quite see how his investigation of me is any real difference to my investigation of Robz
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Once again, if I were mafia rolecop I would have chosen to investigate Robz or Ftl. There is no way that you were "gunning for me" more than those two.
Townie cop is different. As townie cop, you don't necessarily want to take down obvious threats, because mafia aren't stupid enough to make themselves obvious. Mafia are likely to just sit back and hijack everybody else's reasoning and explanations so long as those explanations don't harm the mafia. Since they were against me, and I am the cop, they didn't harm the mafia. This is why you were more than happy to just go along with it. This is why I suspected you. This is why I investigated you.
Robz and Ftl both did things which cast a little doubt in my mind but you did not. You didn't do anything particularly risky. You didn't do anything that would draw too much attention. Nobody made clear any real suspicions of you because of this. But from my position, knowing for a fact that I am not a member of the mafia (info that others could not possibly have and as such could not use while forming their opinions), I had a suspicion of you. I didn't vocalise it because I didn't need to at the time. I'm the cop, remember? Last thing I wanted to do was let the mafia know I'm on to them so that they can kill me at night.
Now. If you're sure you gave out some cop tells in day one. Quote them and explain them. I've explained every single one of my day one actions (ignoring irrelevant/repetetive posts). You have done nothing of the sort. Could that possibly be because you didn't make those actions with the intention of coming out as a cop once you had some information?
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I have just re-read through this, and at no point does it seem TINAS has explained why he investigated me.
I appear to be going to get lynched because I investigated Robz, but you all seem to be glossing over the fact that TINAS investigated me also instead of anybody who voted for Theory after we found out theory was innocent.
So whatever your dissapointment about me investigating Robz, should also hold true for TINAS not investigating one of the people who lynched a townie.
(I also cannot find any posts AT ALL where he mentions any suspicions of me on day 1, yet he chose to investigate me anyway!)
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Jesus...
I know you're trying to defend yourself but man... way to completely ignore enerything I've ever said.
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(that wasn't a direct reply to your post, that came up after I posted, give me a chance I'm typing all this on an iPhone from work!)
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Okay cool, but that wasn't the first time I've mentioned anything that could possibly go some way to explaining why I investigated you.
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Robz and Ftl both did things which cast a little doubt in my mind but you did not. You didn't do anything particularly risky. You didn't do anything that would draw too much attention. Nobody made clear any real suspicions of you because of this. But from my position, knowing for a fact that I am not a member of the mafia (info that others could not possibly have and as such could not use while forming their opinions), I had a suspicion of you. I didn't vocalise it because I didn't need to at the time
Two people cast doubt in your mind, but I didnt. Yet you investigated me?
And people DONT seem to think this stinks?!
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...
As the three surviving voters for me from day 1 (and when I say "voters for me", I mean the four people that had voted on me during the long period during which any non-voting mafia member could have hammered me and didn't), two of you, Ftl, and Robz were mafia. As far as I was concerned concerned (during the night phase).
Ftl and Robz both did things which cast some doubt over whether or not they were members of the mafia. You did not. I investigated you. Get it?
Back to work now.
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Theory was NOT obviously Town. He was a pretty terrible town. Like I've said and Davio has said, he did absolutely nothing to defend himself other than redirect back at TINAS, even when he had 3-4 votes on him.
There are several issues with Ozle's counterclaim:
1) So far, a jailkeeper hasn't claimed yet. Which means Ozle made a terrible, terrible counterclaim if it's false since why would he claim to be blocked when he isn't sure there *exists* a jailkeeper. It's almost such a terrible counterclaim that you want to believe it. So if you're Jailkeeper and you HAVEN'T claimed yet, you are a terrible townie. A really, really terrible townie, thats causing us to vote for the wrong guy and will singlehandedly make us lose. I hope none of us are that bad.
2) Why did he pick Robz?
But really, he claimed he got jailed last night, that makes it soooo easy for us. If the jailkeeper exists and blocked Ozle, then SAY SO and we lynch TINAS. If the Jailkeeper doesn't exist/didn't block Ozle, then say NOTHING and we lynch Ozle, who is caught in an obvious lie.
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It's not quite that simple. The way I see it, we have a jailkeeper and one of the following has occured, both of which are plausible explanations and do not imply I am mafia:
A) Ozle is mafia rolecop and was jailkept last night. He was not performing the night kill, hence the kill went ahead, but he received no result from his investigation causing him to know we have a jailkeeper.
B) Ozle is mafia rolecop and last night investigated... someone. That person is the jailkeeper and so Ozle knows there is a jailkeeper. Ozle hasn't revealed who he investigated (or was reluctant to do so and maybe just said Robz to get him to stop asking) because that information is irrelevant to his (false) story.
The final possibility is that he guessed what our other special character was and got it wrong. But even I don't think he's that stupid.
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It's not quite that simple. The way I see it, we have a jailkeeper and one of the following has occured, both of which are plausible explanations and do not imply I am mafia:
A) Ozle is mafia rolecop and was jailkept last night. He was not performing the night kill, hence the kill went ahead, but he received no result from his investigation causing him to know we have a jailkeeper.
B) Ozle is mafia rolecop and last night investigated... someone. That person is the jailkeeper and so Ozle knows there is a jailkeeper. Ozle hasn't revealed who he investigated (or was reluctant to do so and maybe just said Robz to get him to stop asking) because that information is irrelevant to his (false) story.
The final possibility is that he guessed what our other special character was and got it wrong. But even I don't think he's that stupid.
Right, damn rolecop.. keep forgetting about that.
And no its not a ploy to make myself seem innocent.
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2) Why did he pick Robz?
But really, he claimed he got jailed last night, that makes it soooo easy for us. If the jailkeeper exists and blocked Ozle, then SAY SO and we lynch TINAS. If the Jailkeeper doesn't exist/didn't block Ozle, then say NOTHING and we lynch Ozle, who is caught in an obvious lie.
Obviously I would like the Jailkeeper to come out to prove it, no way would I make up an obvious lie, but he hasnt so far presumably because he is afraid of revealing the other power role.
However I have done a bit of thinking and my maths may be slightly wrong here.
If he does come out now (and presuming we lynch TINAS which im hoping his testimony will help)
There are 5 people left including one mafia and one jailer.
Because he jails one, and I investigate another. He then has a 1 in 4 chance of jailing the mafia and instant win for us (as there will be no murder as the Mafia has to kill me). The mafia kills me. Then there are 4 left, the jailer will know 50/50 who isnt the mafia (himself and the person he jailed)
So you lynch one of the other two, if its a townie then there is only one other possible person it could be, and still 2 townies to vote for him?
Ergo town wins.
Obviously this only works if im telling the truth.
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Actually I think that method works if TINAS is telling the turth as well.
Ergo Town has nothing to lose by Jailer revealing himself
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I AM THE JAILKEEPER.
I didn't want to say anything... I have hinted that we should accept Ozle's claim unless the jailkeeper contradicts it. That was my way of saying his claim was correct, because I know it is, because I am jailkeeper.
I chose Ozle because I thought he was likely to die in the night. He was with me on the correct side of the theory vote, so I assumed the mafia would want to eliminate us (little did I know we would still be top suspects, for being correct about the lynching of a townie!). I was using my ability to protect him, like a doctor. I assumed I had a better shot at that than predicting who the mafia were, and blocking the one who casts the kill vote. If TINAS was mafia, I assumed the other mafia would be casting the vote, and I have no idea who that is.
This does not prove that Ozle is the cop. He would know that he was roleblocked, whether he was cop or rolecop mafia.
So there you go.
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Oh, and I think TINAS and Davio are the mafia.
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Thanks, may not be enough but helps prove I wasn't lying about that!
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Thanks, may not be enough but helps prove I wasn't lying about that!
You're welcome. And I now I will die.
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Well one of us will, but with only one mafia left the odds are on the town side massively!
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Although seeing TINAS works he may now claim you ate the other mafia and somehow get you lynched, heh
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Noooo, why'd you reveal Robz??? We're still probably going to end up lynching Ozle and finding out who he was anyway, and now you've given yourself away :(
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I'm not claiming anything about the other mafia. Ozle is the first mafia and that's all I'm concerned with at this point. As I previously pointed out, any and all talk regarding a jailkeeper holds true whether Ozle is mafia rolecop or town cop. This proves nothing.
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And Robz, I'm not calling you out as mafia or anything, but given your background experience in the game I would expect you have known that the jailkeeper claiming proves nothing at this point.
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Noooo, why'd you reveal Robz??? We're still probably going to end up lynching Ozle and finding out who he was anyway, and now you've given yourself away :(
Because people were taking my silence as evidence that Ozle was mafia, and I don't think he is mafia.
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It's all but certain that Tinas/Ozle are Town Cop/Mafia Rolecop, but they may be switched.
I'm still heavily leaning towards Ozle as Rolecop, since he STILL hasn't provided his reasoning why, as cop, he would bother to investigate Robz. A cop would have put a lot of thought into who to investigate - BEFORE finding out that the result didn't matter because of jail. Whereas a mafia rolecop really would have basically nothing to go on, and so would investigate at random, basically. And Ozle's fitting in to that latter category, based on his reasoning.
I still maintain that the second Mafia is not among the TINAS voters; if the vote really was split between two townies, TINAS and theory, then there would be no reason for Mafia to bandwagon together.
I suppose I believe Robz's reveal; it would be a pretty desperate moment for the Mafia to try something, since if it was fake then a true doctor or jailkeeper might crop up and counterclaim.
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Thought i had already stated wgy I went for Robz because I felt he was one of the veteran players of the game and I was worried he was leading me around a bit.
Sure in hindsight it looks pretty bad choice now to me in hindsight, but I didn't have the collective wisdom of everyone joining I that I do now! I can't change it now of course. But if I was mafia then I would certainly have picked someone more believable and I probably wouldn't be in this position!
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Ozle. Can you provide a quote and an explanation of when, during day one, you gave any hint that you are the town cop which you claim I have picked up on. Try not to avoid the question yet again.
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Some things:
On TINAS:
I don't understand why Ozle. Sure he might have been trying to go under the radar, but at least that means he won't be trying to spearhead other movements to get townies lynched. I would think Robz would be a much better target because of how loud and focused he is.
Your claim and hints are confusing:
1) You claim vanilla so you aren't night killed
2) You hint at cop, but!
2a) You want townies to catch on so you don't get lynched.
2b) You want mafia to not catch on so they don't nightkill you??? what?
I don't follow the logic here. Why is hinting that you're a cop any different than claiming you're a cop? If you were the cop the first day you should have revealed since a lynch seemed all but guaranteed, hoped there was a Doctor/Jailer, and prevented a night kill since the mafia would have probably tried to target you. Even if you had to be Jailed, preventing a night kill would have helped a ton.
On Ozle:
If it was me, I think Robz might be worth investigating. However, I don't get why you of all people would investigate him. He had basically the same thought process as you do. Maybe you hoped that if you saw he was town that would validate you and if he was mafia then you know you're thinking of the game all wrong? I wouldn't put that past a new player, but man, it's hard to believe.
I think enough people were confused about how cop and rolecop differed that I don't think that should play a role in our verdict.
Robz, that reveal was terribad... Actually, I'm seeing a Ozle/Robz pair possible, but it's a risky reveal for not much gain. Heck, it's a risky reveal for not much gain even if he's telling the truth.
More to come but back to work for now.
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Robz, that reveal was terribad... Actually, I'm seeing a Ozle/Robz pair possible, but it's a risky reveal for not much gain. Heck, it's a risky reveal for not much gain even if he's telling the truth.
More to come but back to work for now.
I am telling the truth. But you're right, it was not a great move. I think I fell victim to my own confusion and frustration here. O and Ozle called for me to come forward. But it doesn't even verify anything really, except that Ozle was roleblocked, which he would have known anyway. Which I knew before I said anything... so, ugh, I am misplaying.
I still think it's TINAS because I can't imagine him not coming forward on Day 1. I get his explanation, I understand it, but I don't buy it. I am prepared to be wrong--and then to die--either way.
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Some things:
On TINAS:
I don't understand why Ozle. Sure he might have been trying to go under the radar, but at least that means he won't be trying to spearhead other movements to get townies lynched. I would think Robz would be a much better target because of how loud and focused he is.
Your claim and hints are confusing:
1) You claim vanilla so you aren't night killed
2) You hint at cop, but!
2a) You want townies to catch on so you don't get lynched.
2b) You want mafia to not catch on so they don't nightkill you??? what?
I don't follow the logic here. Why is hinting that you're a cop any different than claiming you're a cop? If you were the cop the first day you should have revealed since a lynch seemed all but guaranteed, hoped there was a Doctor/Jailer, and prevented a night kill since the mafia would have probably tried to target you. Even if you had to be Jailed, preventing a night kill would have helped a ton.
I didn't hint at being cop, and I didn't do it BECAUSE I knew mafia were about as likely to pick up on it as town. I hinted that there was a cop (read: power roles) in the game. Not that it was me. As for whether or not claiming cop day one to stop the lynch on me would have been better or not than what I did: I respectfully disagree with your opinion. I'm not going to go into it again because I've already explained more than once, however I will repeat that people play games differently. May way may not be "best", or even "right", but the important thing is: it worked. I survived the lynch without having to reveal I was cop. That was my intention and it worked. That's all that matters as far as I'm concerened.
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My way*
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Oh, and I think TINAS and Davio are the mafia.
I don't know if I should take this seriously as noone else did.
I know it may seem like I'm defending Tinas and this may cause suspicion. I'm not. I just believe him a bit more than Ozle at this point. And your roleclaim seems pretty much like a desperation move. I'm not falling for Tinas' story completely, but I still think there's a better chance of winning if we keep him alive. It's the lesser of two evils. I indulge him, nothing more. We were mafia partners in a different life (read: before the reshuffle), but I'm not anymore.
And hey, if we lynch Ozle and are correct, then we've pretty much won by lynching you next. At worst, we'll still go into the last round 2-1 up, so I like our chances. I like the prospect of winning by day 3.
We can never be 100%, but by eliminating Ozle I think our chances of winning are greatly increased. If Ozle's mafia, Robz is mafia, we win. If he's not, Tinas is mafia and we have no clue who his partner is.
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I'm voting Ozle aswell.. but how do we know Robz is mafia if Ozle is?
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Oh, and I think TINAS and Davio are the mafia.
I don't know if I should take this seriously as noone else did.
I know it may seem like I'm defending Tinas and this may cause suspicion. I'm not. I just believe him a bit more than Ozle at this point. And your roleclaim seems pretty much like a desperation move. I'm not falling for Tinas' story completely, but I still think there's a better chance of winning if we keep him alive. It's the lesser of two evils. I indulge him, nothing more. We were mafia partners in a different life (read: before the reshuffle), but I'm not anymore.
And hey, if we lynch Ozle and are correct, then we've pretty much won by lynching you next. At worst, we'll still go into the last round 2-1 up, so I like our chances. I like the prospect of winning by day 3.
We can never be 100%, but by eliminating Ozle I think our chances of winning are greatly increased. If Ozle's mafia, Robz is mafia, we win. If he's not, Tinas is mafia and we have no clue who his partner is.
For me to be mafia, you would have to believe the following things:
Even though any townsperson dying is a victory for me, and it seems preferable to eliminate a player like theory, I insisted that theory was innocent even as everything shifted against him and he died.
Ozle and I planned him pretending to be the cop and roleclaiming, and me also roleclaiming and backing him up. And that we did this in the night, before TINAS accused Ozle. We did this knowing full well we would both be caught in the lie if we actually persuaded the town to kill the real cop or the real jailkeeper, because the revelation of their roles would doom us.
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Yeah, I don't think Robz is mafia. I'm actually about 90% certain of that and the reson is this:
If he's mafia, he's not Jailkeeper. If he's not jailkeepr, he's fakeclaimed. We already know there is a Cop in the game (and whether you think that's me or Ozle is pretty much irrelevant). Therefore, if we have a real Jailkeeper or Doctor, they know Robz's claim is fake and he's just set himself up to be lynched pretty soon. The only way he could have fakeclaimed Jailkeeper and got away with it is if our second "special" character is an extra vanilla townie, and there's no way that after one game night the mafia would know that. Seems like a huge gamble to take to me, and I'm pretty sure Robz will have known this when deciding whether or not to (fake)claim.
In my mind, Robz's claim is real. Still doesn't mean anything about the me/Ozle discussion though.
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Well, if Robz isn't mafia, that means he is the jailkeeper and that he did imprison Ozle.
That means that Ozle probably isn't lying since he got a 'no result' on his investigation so he very well could be cop.
Which in turn means that you, Tinas, are lying and that you are mafia.
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Pops used to chain Festivals into Woodcutters. Never had work and play been combined so much, and everyone got Copper, as prize or as wage, who cares?
(Played a Festival/WC/Gardens face to face game yesterday)
VoteCount
TINAS: 2 votes (Axxle, Ozle)
Ozle: 2 vote (TINAS, O)
Undecided: 4 votes (Robz, ftl, O, Davio).
Right?
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I had voted for Ozle, but never unvoted.
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Well, if Robz isn't mafia, that means he is the jailkeeper and that he did imprison Ozle.
That means that Ozle probably isn't lying since he got a 'no result' on his investigation so he very well could be cop.
Which in turn means that you, Tinas, are lying and that you are mafia.
But he could have gotten that result if he were mafia Rolecop, too.
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Well, if Robz isn't mafia, that means he is the jailkeeper and that he did imprison Ozle.
That means that Ozle probably isn't lying since he got a 'no result' on his investigation so he very well could be cop.
Which in turn means that you, Tinas, are lying and that you are mafia.
But he could have gotten that result if he were mafia Rolecop, too.
This, which was my whole point earlier when I was saying that Robz coming out ar Jailkeeper proves nothing. Glad we cleared that up.
Also, pops, I THINK Axxle unvoted me.
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(Yeah he did)
And O cannot be voting and undecided at the same time.
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(Yeah he did)
And O cannot be voting and undecided at the same time.
I'm pretty sure we all agreed I get two votes... right?
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You know, I've been thinking about it, and *damn* does TINAS's lying Day 1 rub me the wrong way. There's a reason that mafiascum has a Lynch all Liars policy, it's because in the long run lying hurts townies *infinitely* more than help them. It might be just in principle but I have to reinstate my vote Vote: TINAS. I think he's been playing long enough to know that gambits like the one he pulled on Day 1 just don't work.
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And don't say something like: "But it did work." The ends do not justify the means.
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Whatever. I have not hurt the town, but it seems you would like to.
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And don't say something like: "But it did work." The ends do not justify the means.
You would have hurt the town if you were a Cop and got lynched day one, which I think you had far more of a chance of being than the 1/3 chance that there wasn't a doctor or jailer.
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If I had got lynched day one, it would not have been my fault. The only way I could take that blame would have been if I had placed a vote against myself. At one point I offered to just that out of frustration, but when called out to do it I backed away, as I knew that it was the wrong thing to do.
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Of course it would have been your fault! You gave us NO cause to not lynch you. You tell us that we DO NOT want to lynch the roles, then tell us you're NOT a role, then expect us NOT to lynch you. F**K I should have lynched you yesterday when I had the chance. If we had lynched you we would have thought "Oh, well at least we aren't lynching a role" like you were leading us to believe, and just... GAH!
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and I'm clearly too frustrated to be posting.
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All I have done this game is to try my best to help the town. I don't really care whether or not you think my style of playing is the right way of playing. It's my style and that's that. It got the right results and whether or not you think that's relevant is... well... irrelevant, as far as I'm concerned. My conscience is clear.
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If TINAS had come on Day 1 as Cop I could have protected him during the night. Also, the mafia can't really risk not getting a kill in the night, so they don't target TINAS. So I know I don't need to jailkeep him, because if they are smart they don't target him. So he gets to investigate anyway.
There's quite a bit of rock-paper-scissors involved with that of course, but it's not as if coming out as cop on Day 1 automatically relegated him to death or permanent jailkeeping.
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Guys.. Mafia 101... lynch counterclaim first 85% of the time (unless position is critical, which it's not; a wrong guess doesn't mean we lose)
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Heh. Everyone hates TINAS! It's a party! Just when we thought he was off the hook after surviving day 1 and then claiming cop! He brought it on himself, but still.
If I had got lynched day one, it would not have been my fault. The only way I could take that blame would have been if I had placed a vote against myself.
Dude, the way you were playing, definitely would have been. You spent the first half of the day accurately convincing everyone that you were untrustworthy, that you weren't being honest, and so on. I suppose the gambit worked because you survived day 1 and night 1... but hey, sometimes opening throne room/swindler works too.
I still suspect, Axxle, that you should let him live for this round, I think his behavior is more consistent with a cop who misjudged the community rather than a mafia. But hey, I could be wrong.
OK, so we have two Mafia and 5 town. If we lynch the wrong guy here, we're down to 2/3 (with no power roles left, 'cause jailkeep and cop would be dead), and then have to get two correct lynches in a row; the first one would be easy and obvious, the second would be a tossup, but possible. 33% chance of town win or so based on random chance, possibly better since we'd have allegiance info from first three days.
If we lynch the right guy, we're down to 1/4, with a chance to get extra info due to jailkeep or cop, and then we have to get one correct lynch out of two... just above 50% chance?
Would a Mafia Rolecop, having found the cop, fakereveal like that? Especially after he saw that Ozle, as cop, hadn't revealed? I mean, even with suspicion on him, I think he'd try to deflect it again, like he did the first day, and give himself a chance to do more rolecopping on the next night to find any other power role.
Are we at 2-2 like pops said or is it 2-3 with Davio's vote? I don't wanna cast the hammer this time! I smacked my hand with it last time when trying to hit Theory!
Unless it really does get evenly split at 3-3.
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I don't wanna cast the hammer this time! I smacked my hand with it last time when trying to hit Theory!
Hey, we have pretty decent odds of picking to lynch a townie over a cop. I wouldn't feel too bad...yet.
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Guys, sorry I have not been around much (and will not bee until at least the weekend, my Dads been in hospital over night with Heart problems (nothing serious it turns out, but a bit of a scare)
Im on for anout half hour, which I'll use to read this, then im going to bed, shattered
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Oh, and I think TINAS and Davio are the mafia.
We can never be 100%, but by eliminating Ozle I think our chances of winning are greatly increased. If Ozle's mafia, Robz is mafia, we win. If he's not, Tinas is mafia and we have no clue who his partner is.
Really?
I cant see past O as the other mafia at the moment, he has come out and not even looked at the possibility of lynching Tinas and is always just on to me.
If I survive this, and it proves im the cop, I would suggest jailing O and see if a murder happens....if im wrong, I die during the night anyway, but the Jailer and O will know they are both innocent, and they have a 50/50 chance of getting the other mafia the first night, and if wrong, they can get him the last night?
Right?
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I could be completely wrong on the O front, but suspicion is growing reading back through his posts, he is leaning heavily on lynching me and seem to keep bring it back around.
Although of course, I could have misunderstood completely and people should re-read all his posts to make sure.
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Guys.. Mafia 101... lynch counterclaim first 85% of the time (unless position is critical, which it's not; a wrong guess doesn't mean we lose)
This may be true of every game on the whole, but each game has to be taken on its own merits.
You cant just saythat Counterclaims are usually best to lynch, (I assume they usually are). But each game surely has to be taken on its own merits.
I think you may be trying to get this over and done with by trying to play the 'this is what usually is the case' card!
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Ok guys, off again now, pretty sure theres not a lot more I can say on this subject. Your all pretty savvy enough to make up your own minds with all the information thats out there now without being guided along by certain people (which of course includes me!)
Back again on Friday I hope!
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I am leaning heavily on lynching you. I clearly stated why, too; I lynch counterclaims first unless there is a really good reason too (IE, there is a major major reason to suspect someone to fakeclaim out of the blue).
We hadn't really signaled out TINAS to be lynched today, so I don't see why he would fakeclaim so quickly.
The fact still is that pretty much everyone but has accused TINAS at one or more points, and brought back the discussion to him. So either he's innocent and being piled on by mafia or the second mafia have weighed the risks and realized that it's not worth risking defending him.
Or it's me, and I'm such a bad mafia player that I think picking one POV and defending it over the course of a games -even when it puts you under major scrutiny- is an excellent mafia strategy.
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Well, I've made up my mind, though it's like 55-45. But I can't see myself being persuaded by any new evidence. I know it's usually correct to lynch the counter-claimant, but if TINAS was really Cop he should have (and I believe would have, no matter what he says now) come out yesterday when there were 4 votes against him. There were more than a few ways he could have survived the night if he did.
VOTE: TINAS
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Well, if Robz isn't mafia, that means he is the jailkeeper and that he did imprison Ozle.
That means that Ozle probably isn't lying since he got a 'no result' on his investigation so he very well could be cop.
Which in turn means that you, Tinas, are lying and that you are mafia.
This is what I thought. But then Ozle could have gotten "no result" if he's Mafia rolecop, and Robz could be telling the truth
If he's Cop, TINAS is Mafia
If he's Mafia non-rolecop, Robz is Mafia
If he's Mafia Rolecop, we don't know.
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Ok... cleared my head...
so it's Ozle, Axxle, Robz for TINAS
and TINAS, O, Davio for Ozle
and ftl currently abstaining?
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Several in the Gardeny kingdom enjoyed sending their subjects to the King's Court. Axxle sent his Baron past three Gardens to the King's Court, and the good chap brought him back 7 cards! That was a great day.
Votecount
Thisisnotasmile - Ozle, Axxle, Robz
Ozle - TINAS, O, Davio
not voting - ftl
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For all my wanting not to cast the final vote, I guess I have to, since it's a 3-3 split. I was hoping to avoid that; I've already killed an innocent once, and I don't consider myself to have particularly good intuitions about who's who here.
Oh well, here goes nothing.
Vote: Ozle
Reasoning:
1) I find Ozle investigating Robz for no reason much more plausible if he's Rolecop rather than Cop, whereas TINAS investigating Ozle makes perfect sense as a cop move.
2) I find TINAS's suspicious behavior in day 1, combined with his claim day 2, to be consistent with the behavior of a cop who was pressured, but weird and inconsistent with Mafia behavior; would he be a really bad mafia for being one away from a lynch, or really great mafia for the clever roleclaim?
*crosses fingers*
Please don't lynch me if I'm wrong...
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Oh boy, I am on the losing side of the vote again. I hope you were right!
Since I am certainly going to die tonight either way (and truly that's my own damn fault), it's been fun playing! Please keep in mind that whichever one ends up being the liar, he is mafia, and his co-mafia voted for the other person, like for sure.
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Oh boy, I am on the losing side of the vote again. I hope you were right!
Since I am certainly going to die tonight either way (and truly that's my own damn fault), it's been fun playing! Please keep in mind that whichever one ends up being the liar, he is mafia, and his co-mafia voted for the other person, like for sure.
You'll have a pretty good idea of who to try and Jail.
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Oh God I nearly had a heart attack reading those few extra posts this morning...
Thank you Ftl. You have made the right decision (and it will be proved shortly if anyone still doesn't believe me). I truly am a master of dodging bullets, but it's for the best. Well played town.
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I truly am a master of dodging bullets
Cough
Cough
Cough
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I was one away from lynching day one. I was one away from lynching (twice) day two. On none of those occasions did I die. I dodged those bullets.
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Oh God I nearly had a heart attack reading those few extra posts this morning...
Thank you Ftl. You have made the right decision (and it will be proved shortly if anyone still doesn't believe me). I truly am a master of dodging bullets, but it's for the best. Well played town.
I must pace myself.
I'm almost at the point where I don't care whether you're mafia or not, just because of your funny little zigging and zagging which spices up the game.
But if I think you are, I will still vote for you of course. :)
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I was one away from lynching day one. I was one away from lynching (twice) day two. On none of those occasions did I die. I dodged those bullets.
But.. but.. you make it sound like its all you :'(
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Well, I was wrong before and I hope I'm wrong again. But if not there'll be a lot of fist shaking!
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Oh, and one more bit of advice for the town, just to get it out there for if(/when?) I die tonight:
Ftl dropping the hammer on Ozle does not necessarily put him in the clear. At this point in the game (consider the possibility that he is mafia) he could have dropped the hammer on the cop (me) and put a lot of suspicion on himself as the second mafia or dropped the hammer on his mafia buddy (Ozle) in an attempt to clear himself. The second option is in no way a move that the mafia would not take. Certainly not pointing the finger, just pointing out the possibility to make sure it does not get disregarded.
The final mafia is one of Robz, Axxle, Ftl. And I've already stated why I believe Robz's roleclaim (pretty much) clears himself. Unless anyone else wants to counterclaim?
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And Robz, feel free to jail me tonight. I think the extra man might well be worth more than the investigation at this point. That's if you think mafia will kill me. If not feel free to do other stuff. Don't want to let the mafia know for sure if they can kill me or not.
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The final mafia is one of Robz, Axxle, Ftl. And I've already stated why I believe Robz's roleclaim (pretty much) clears himself. Unless anyone else wants to counterclaim?
I hope someone does counterclaim. Then maybe I get to live a little longer. I like living...
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And Robz, feel free to jail me tonight. I think the extra man might well be worth more than the investigation at this point. That's if you think mafia will kill me. If not feel free to do other stuff. Don't want to let the mafia know for sure if they can kill me or not.
You're more trouble than you're worth! :P
Don't worry, I know what to do.
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Well, you will know what to do once we confirm that we lynched a mafioso. Maybe TINAS is still playing us for the lulz despite being Mafia. You never know. I certainly never do, at least...
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Well, you will know what to do once we confirm that we lynched a mafioso. Maybe TINAS is still playing us for the lulz despite being Mafia. You never know. I certainly never do, at least...
That's what I thought when we lynched theory, he was so unhelpful...
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THREAD LOCKED
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TINAS, O, Davio, ftl
At day they had to figure out who they thought killed not only pops, the paragon of Gardeners, but also goober, a lesser but still cool Gardener. Someone did not have a Gardens strategy and didn't need to breathe the hedge-oxogenated air any longer.
Thisisnotasmile said Ozle seemed suspicious. He suggested they check out his kingdom.
O took a look around. They saw like everyone, he had at least one nice Garden they showed off with the group. But was this guy a true Gardener?
O found a Peddler. A little tough to attract to a lushly overgrown kingdom, sometimes, but often a good friend of +buy. O asked him, "What brought you to this kingdom?" The Peddler said he had simply been impressed by the prospects of doing business in 4 Worker's Villages.
"4 Worker's Villages!" said Davio. "You don't need that many people to man the Gardens!"
"They do give +buy, though", pointed out O.
"There should be at least three other Peddlers with you if your story is true. Where are they?" asked O.
The Peddler got uncomfortable.
"They didn't please my liege."
"What do you mean?"
"My master doesn't like worldly things.. maybe you should travel a mile east and see for yourself. It's not on the map."
They set out for the east. ftl arrived first, and screamed in horror.
Three Peddlers lied dead on the ground, crucifixes through their chests.
ftl wasn't looking at them though
"It's ruined!!!" he screamed.
The hedges had been chopped into ugly shapes. The fountain's top layer bowl was lopped off and replaced with a cross. All the roses were trampled.
A Steward walked by. "The roses haven't grown back have they?" ftl pulled a garden hoe from God knows where and came at the bloke. The Steward ran off somewhere safer in the Kingdom.
The others caught up and saw the carnage. This was pretty conclusive. A disgusting trash pile. There were trampled estates nearby, full of bent coppers.
They brought Ozle back to his own trash pile. Ozle ranted about his holy crusade on and on, until the rope around his neck shut him up. They threw him with the same Peddlers he had killed and hadn't buried and left. Hopefully things would be quieter in the Gardens now.
Ozle was mafia rolecop. 48 hours until night.
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Memorial Day vacation may or may not extend the night. The deadline for a time stamped pm to the mod is still 48 hours though.
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Hello all - I'm filling this announcement for Pops on account of Memorial Day in meatspace. I am making this announcement at his instruction:
<Something flavorful about gardens>
No one died last night.
I will not be doing any additional moderation, vote counting etc.
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Okay. Robz, who did you jail? I ask because I got a result on my investigation and nobody died, so it looks to me like you blocked whoever did the kill.
(Unfortunately, my investigation was unfruitful but I'll still announce after you do)
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Here's what I did. I realized that saving TINAS didn't actually make sense, because then he wouldn't get to use his detective power. There's little point keeping him alive, rather than someone else, if he isn't able to investigate. Plus, I can't save myself, so I'm dead unless I figure out who the mafia is and block that person.
Ozle, myself, and Axxle all wrongly voted for TINAS last round. Ozle was the Mafia Rolecop, I was just plain wrong, and Axxle... was the other mafia, I guessed. The vote was close, and he probably didn't want to vote against his fellow mafia. So I blocked him.
I assume this means that Axxle is the other mafia, although it is possible that he was the target of the mafia, instead.
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Okay, I was choosing between blocking Axxle and Ftl. There was still a chance of Robz being mafia, but since nobody had counterclaimed him I had no real reason to doubt it (and so far still do not). Investigated Ftl based on the fact that he was one of "the four" and Axxle was not (although Axxle had actually voted for me at one point on day one, just not as one of "the four"). Ftl is town, leading me to Axxle. Robz's story corroborates this.
Vote: Axxle
Well played team.
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I think it's also possible that the mafia chose not to kill in order to implicate whoever got jailed, however poor that tactic may be. We'll it's not looking good for me, but the town can handle a few more mislynches. I'll look though the thread again though after I get back from vacation Monday night, although my primary suspiscion is ftl.
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Oh, and I see no reason why mafia would try to kill Axxle if for some strange reason he is not mafia. He's been on the wrong side of a lynch twice now and has done nothing particularly helpful as far as the town are concerned.
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Didnt see tinas's post. I guess it's back to basics.
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Oh, and I see no reason why mafia would try to kill Axxle if for some strange reason he is not mafia. He's been on the wrong side of a lynch twice now and has done nothing particularly helpful as far as the town are concerned.
I am pretty certain it is Axxle. If it's not, since TINAS cleared Ftl, that only leaves Davio and O, right? Let's say one of them is the mafia, doesn't matter which. Let's say it's Davio. The thing is this means he must have voted to kill his mafia partner, Ozle. And the vote was 4-3, meaning he COULD have saved his partner. So that's hard to believe. But maybe it was a strategy to cast suspicion elsewhere, because we would have killed Ozle next round anyway, I guess? I don't know. And then he tried to kill Axxle? I guess that doesn't make sense either, because there would be two chances that Axxle was saved in the night (I jail Axxle, or I jail mafia). This is true for every player except me, where there is only once chance I survive (I jail mafia). So I would expect to be dead.
So basically, yeah... it makes much much much more sense that Axxle is just the mafia, I think.
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The thing that makes it certain for me is this: if Axxle is not mafia, why did the mafia try to kill Axxle? They know I'm cop. They know Robz is Jailkeeper. They know I could be protected, so if that's a risk they're not willing to take, they kill Robz, if not they kill me. There is no reason to kill Axxle. If for some strange reason I have yet to think of they don't want to kill either of us, they kill either Davio or O, who have stood by me from the beginning (or Ftl, but even I doubted him up until I just investigated him). There is just no logical reason for anybody to try to kill Axxle. He was jailkept and there was no kill. The only explanation is that Axxle is mafia.
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Glad the thread is open again.
I was so happy when we got the right one this time, but sad the thread immediately locked so we couldn't celebrate.
I guess the game is almost over. Lynching the right one this time gave us a boatload of info.
I doubt very much whether O willingly lynched his partner in order to look like a town. If he did, well, it's a bold move and I applaud him.
This leaves Axxle and Robz. While I'm still doubtful of Robz, I'm even more suspicious of Axxle.
I will find some time to look things over however before I cast my vote.
One more, guys, go team town!
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Seems like clear logic to me.
Vote: Axxle
Voting a little early so I don't have to cast a deciding vote again! But also because there's not much that would change my mind; right now it's not about how people sound, but just about mechanics about who's claiming what. And because I'd been suspicious of Axxle earlier, too.
Most likely possibility: TINAS Cop, Robz Jailkeep, Axxle Mafia.
For record, other possibility: Mafia choosing 'no lynch' to throw us off. We're still in the same position - we need 1 successful lynch out of the next 2, but this way we're likely to mess up this lynch. But why not target the cop, then? If cop gets jailed, same effect, if not then hey, dead cop. Unless Robz's the mafia and made a really risky claim, and we got unlucky and had no jailkeep or doc, but that seems unlikely.
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It seems very clear to me that mafia would target one of Robz, or TINAS, or I guess maybe me if they wanted to have a higher success rate of killing someone (of those who aren't Robz or TINAS, I'm going to claim the position of most-obviously not mafia.
There's of course of a chance that one of Robz or TINAS is lying to us. If ROBZ is lying, he's a devious one for no-lynching, but its a very very risky move. If TINAS is lying... well damn, I've been wrong this entire game, but then he made the very very risky and devious move yesterday of the TINAS-Ozle shenanigans.
FTL is clearly not Mafia (TINAS is either telling the truth, in which his claim that Ftl is not Mafia is true, or he's lying, in which case TINAS and not Ftl is mafia)
VOTE: AXXLE
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At this point I would unlynch to give Axxle a chance to defend himself, but I'm so certain that I'm not even going to bother.
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What rubbed me the wrong way about Axxle is that he was always so quick to drop the hammer on TINAS each and everytime.
In choosing between Robz and Axxle, I'm going for Axxle as mafia. Robz was defending Ozle, so I suspected him, but I guess he was just wrong. Not everyone could appreciate all the hard work TINAS was doing for us, I guess.
I'm abstaining from voting at this point however, I want to see a bit more out of Axxle, although I'm doubtful whether it will influence my vote. But voting now would take away the fun of reading Axxle's counter.
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A man from far away came to the Gardens. He said he was an experienced settler of other regions and was confident in his mastery of the complex art of empire building. He asked if things were any different here, but assured them he would have no trouble adapting and controlling the wheat, sheep, lumber, and clay of the empire.
Davio assured him it's a breeze. "Look here. I have a Gardens empire so I want lots of cards, I just go to my Ironworks and order my men to make me an Island, which would mean I get another chance to do things and more time today to walk my kingdom, but whoa, my Traders are buying the Island, when did those <period appropriate racial slur>s get that much money? Ok, now I'm going to gain a Silver instead, which would normally mean I get a dollar, but currently King Donald has us in Silver Savings time, which means I don't get a dollar, until such a time as he changes his mind, so now I don't get anything, but a Silver, which would go to the back of my kingdom, except my watchtower puts it in front. Easy right?"
The man didn't come back.
Vote Count
Axxle (3) - Thisisnotasmile, ftl, O
Not voting (3) - Davio, Robz8888, Axxle
Vote Count
Axxle (3) - Thisisnotasmile, ftl, O
Not voting (3) - Davio, Robz8888, Axxle
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You know, just in case: Unvote
I'll give Axxle a chance to defend himself too. No reason to quickhammer.
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I am likewise ready to vote, but we should let Axxle make his defense first.
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Ok, I read through the thread once and read through today's posts twice and the conclusion that I came up with is that TINAS is Mafia.
His endgame plan is perfect:
1)Mislynch me
2)Kill Robz
3)Mislynch O or Davio
4)Kill ftl
5)Win
The biggest thing that tipped me off was this:
Okay. Robz, who did you jail? I ask because I got a result on my investigation and nobody died, so it looks to me like you blocked whoever did the kill.
(Unfortunately, my investigation was unfruitful but I'll still announce after you do)
Why wait? It's so that he doesn't claim that the jailed player is innocent, destroying his endgame. (Either me or ftl were interchangeable for the first kill)
The reason why he didn't want to kill anyone last night (I think it works out to the same endgame conditions) is so that he shows some camaraderie with Robz and fully solidifies his Town position.
So I propose:
1)Lynch TINAS
2)Win
Although the alternative:
1)Lynch Me
2)Jail TINAS
3)Lynch TINAS
4)Win
Works too, but I'd rather live to tell the tale :)
Vote: TINAS
I have to admit, the Cop thing was a gambit, but if TINAS didn't stumble with that post it would have been practically a 100% guaranteed mafia win.
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I'm still not quite buying it, Axxle... in that case, why wouldn't he kill Robz? Same result, he gets to point the finger at an innocent and correctly say he's innocent.
Is there still a possible scenario where the Mafia picked 'no kill' in order to throw us off and get us to lynch an innocent? I tried going through the possibilities, and I got bogged down.
Oh hey, here's a fun option. If we're RIGHT, and Axxle is mafia, then it's just as safe to repeat the night - we vote no lynch, Robz jails Axxle, TINAS investigates more. Can TINAS investigate the jailed person? Well, if not, just investigate other people for process of elimination, until he knows for sure. If we are right and Axxle is Mafia and TINAS is Cop and Robz is jailkeep, then this is 100% safe. Provably, no holes in this plan. Am I correct?
What if we're wrong and, by some freak bluff, Axxle isn't mafia? Some other Mafia out there, maybe a super-bluffy TINAS or Robz, maybe Davio or O who are playing a very convincing Town and flying under the radar. (I guess it's provably not me by the reasoning posted a little earier.) This seems unlikely, but I can't say it's provably impossible. In this case, we don't want to lynch Axxle; so, a vote for no lynch is better than killing him off.
Based on this reasoning, I think that a voting NO LYNCH is strictly better than a vote for Axxle, in terms of being sure Town wins. We don't lynch Axxle; Robz permanently jails him. And if we're wrong, well, we'll find out by some means other than lynching a townie, which is like the worst way to find out you're wrong.
Is there anything wrong with this reasoning? Is there a scenario in which NL works worse than just lynching Axxle immediately?
It gives Mafia one free shot at TINAS which they didn't necessarily have before (they always had a chance to kill Robz if they wanted it). But is that worse for town than killing a townie?
I keep trying to think this trough as a logic puzzle with "OK, if Robz is Mafia... if TINAS is Mafia.. if O or Davio are mafia..." and get confused trying to come up with a way for town to be guaranteed a win, knowing we have at least one of the two power roles and a few guaranteed townies around. But the discussion in my head is about what happens if we vote No Lynch and Jail Axxle and he's not mafia, as contrasted with us voting to lynch Axxle and he's not mafia.
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Or maybe I'm overthinking it and we should just hammer Axxle :)
But it's late here and I'm tired, I stayed up this late to watch some of the French Open before going to bed, Ima go sleep now.
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Ok, I read through the thread once and read through today's posts twice and the conclusion that I came up with is that TINAS is Mafia.
His endgame plan is perfect:
1)Mislynch me
2)Kill Robz
3)Mislynch O or Davio
4)Kill ftl
5)Win
The biggest thing that tipped me off was this:
Okay. Robz, who did you jail? I ask because I got a result on my investigation and nobody died, so it looks to me like you blocked whoever did the kill.
(Unfortunately, my investigation was unfruitful but I'll still announce after you do)
Why wait? It's so that he doesn't claim that the jailed player is innocent, destroying his endgame. (Either me or ftl were interchangeable for the first kill)
The reason why he didn't want to kill anyone last night (I think it works out to the same endgame conditions) is so that he shows some camaraderie with Robz and fully solidifies his Town position.
So I propose:
1)Lynch TINAS
2)Win
Although the alternative:
1)Lynch Me
2)Jail TINAS
3)Lynch TINAS
4)Win
Works too, but I'd rather live to tell the tale :)
Vote: TINAS
I have to admit, the Cop thing was a gambit, but if TINAS didn't stumble with that post it would have been practically a 100% guaranteed mafia win.
I lol'd.
But on a more serious note, if you guys want to no lynch and go for Ftl's thing I'm happy to do some more investigating for you all, but I'm not voting for it personally so my lynch is not changing.
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I'll humor the "TINAS is mafia" sentiment for a minute. If it's true, it means TINAS outed and orchestrated the death of his co-mafia, Mafia Rolecop Ozle, immediately on Day 2. It would mean that this was an agreed to plan between Ozle and TINAS. That seems... farfetched. It's true that claiming cop and killing Ozle bought TINAS a lot of good will with us, but... it seems like a crazy thing to do, getting rid of one of the mafia to partially cover the other.
Also, this plan could have backfired big time. If TINAS were mafia, that means BOTH the mafia roleclaimed cop yesterday. If they were both mafia and someone else were cop, well that would have just been a disaster for them. We would have the mafia narrowed down to 2/3.
Also, Ozle, who is definitely mafia, voted for TINAS on Day 1. All of these things lead me to conclude that because Ozle was the Mafia Rolecop, TINAS cannot be mafia.
Ftl's plan is interesting, though probably unnecessary.
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...Damnit
Why would TINAS wait for Robz to announce his night actions before posting his own, if not say he cleared the other player?
Unvote for now.
Axxle is still most likely
then TINAS
then Robz88
then Davio
I'm not mafia, but I can't prove that so i'll put O
over FTL, who is verifiably proven not mafia. :P
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if not TO say**
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I'll humor the "TINAS is mafia" sentiment for a minute. If it's true, it means TINAS outed and orchestrated the death of his co-mafia, Mafia Rolecop Ozle, immediately on Day 2. It would mean that this was an agreed to plan between Ozle and TINAS. That seems... farfetched. It's true that claiming cop and killing Ozle bought TINAS a lot of good will with us, but... it seems like a crazy thing to do, getting rid of one of the mafia to partially cover the other.
If it was anyone but TINAS I'd be more skeptical myself. Probably be still trying to figure out what's really going on. But it is TINAS, and I wouldn't put anything past him.
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So friends, what are we thinking? I am still assuming I am ultimately going to vote for Axxle, but I'm curious to see if other people think we should pursue Ftl's No Lynch plan. I'm not necessarily opposed to it but it might be bad for reasons I haven't thought of.
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So friends, what are we thinking? I am still assuming I am ultimately going to vote for Axxle, but I'm curious to see if other people think we should pursue Ftl's No Lynch plan. I'm not necessarily opposed to it but it might be bad for reasons I haven't thought of.
I have a theory on how ftl's plan will play out, but if I say anything it probably won't happen. Suffice it to say I don't think it'll work as cleanly as you think.
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....Why would TINAS wait to claim? My question still isn't answered yet.
I still can't figure out whether to vote AXXLE, TINAS or Nolynch.
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If Axxle is mafia, Ftl's plan will work. If Axxle is mafia, lynching Axxle will work. If Axxle is not mafia, neither will work.
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And I waited to claim because I was still semi-suspicious of Robz. I didn't want to announce my claim first and give him the opportunity to make up a story that fits in with it. I wanted him to announce first so I could make sure it fits with mine. Are people seriously suspicious of me? Seriously?
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I'm still semi-suspicious of Robz. He has a tendency to make claims... ;)
And Ozle claimed he got jailed, which Robz backed up. Ozle was also Mafia. If Ozle and Robz conspired to set up a story for Robz, and try to misslynch TINAS, kill someone, Lynch Ozle (as he would be obviously Mafia), kill someone, then we'd be stuck in a 2-1 situation where Robz has a hard-to-debunk jailkeeper claim.
He DOES have the benefit of his story matching with TINAS.
All of this has convinced me that Davio is almost certainly town. The odds that neither TINAS or ROBZ are lying, that axxle jailed AND Davio tried to kill Axxle (or nolynched, which seems highly unlikely...) seem pretty slim.
So hopefully I want my votes to align with Davio and FTL. Obviously 2 of the 3 (OK, *at least* 2 of the three if you still suspect me at all) of Robz, TINAS and Axxle are still not mafia, so them voting with me doesn't immediately disqualify my opinion.
Keep in mind that my logic for thinking Davio is innocent also applies to myself... so if you agree with my assessment about Davio, it's also true that it's very unlikely that I'm mafia either.
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Keep in mind that my logic for thinking Davio is innocent also applies to myself... so if you agree with my assessment about Davio, it's also true that it's very unlikely that I'm mafia either.
Very convenient. :) I don't think I've thought for a second that you were mafia, which is probably poor play on my part.
I was think jailing me and lynching TINAS (or vice versa) is what we probably will and should end up doing. But now you're throwing out this doubt about Robz and it's making everything less clear (especially after TINAS's clarification on why he waited). I still strongly believe in my earlier theory though.
So hopefully I want my votes to align with Davio and FTL
Then convince them, don't make them start suspecting everyone again.
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*was thinking
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I'm still semi-suspicious of Robz. He has a tendency to make claims... ;)
And Ozle claimed he got jailed, which Robz backed up. Ozle was also Mafia. If Ozle and Robz conspired to set up a story for Robz, and try to misslynch TINAS, kill someone, Lynch Ozle (as he would be obviously Mafia), kill someone, then we'd be stuck in a 2-1 situation where Robz has a hard-to-debunk jailkeeper claim.
He DOES have the benefit of his story matching with TINAS.
All of this has convinced me that Davio is almost certainly town. The odds that neither TINAS or ROBZ are lying, that axxle jailed AND Davio tried to kill Axxle (or nolynched, which seems highly unlikely...) seem pretty slim.
So hopefully I want my votes to align with Davio and FTL. Obviously 2 of the 3 (OK, *at least* 2 of the three if you still suspect me at all) of Robz, TINAS and Axxle are still not mafia, so them voting with me doesn't immediately disqualify my opinion.
Keep in mind that my logic for thinking Davio is innocent also applies to myself... so if you agree with my assessment about Davio, it's also true that it's very unlikely that I'm mafia either.
I understand the semi-suspicion of me because I was wrong about Ozle. But if you think I'm mafia, why would I kill no one last night? Certainly I should have killed TINAS, or at least somebody. It wouldn't make sense to miss a chance to kill.
In all overwhelming likelihood, everybody is who they said they are at this point, and either Axxle is mafia, or he was the target of the mafia. I'm fairly convinced he's the mafia, since he didn't vote for fellow mafia Ozle. If we're wrong about Axxle, I block O or Davio tonight, TINAS investigates one of them, and we have our answer via process of elimination.
VOTE: AXXLE
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Robz, if you don't suspect TINAS enough to even at least jail him tonight then he's already won.
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Rediculous. Hilarious.
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Robz, if you don't suspect TINAS enough to even at least jail him tonight then he's already won.
If you remember, I suspected all the time on Day 1 and Day 2. I think I voted for him both days. But with the revelation that the other cop claimer was the Mafia Rolecop, really I can't not believe him at this point.
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OK, yeah, the no lynch was sort of silly. Hey, it was late at night.
Really busy today, but I'll have time for a longer post/reread later.
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Robz, if you don't suspect TINAS enough to even at least jail him tonight then he's already won.
If you remember, I suspected all the time on Day 1 and Day 2. I think I voted for him both days. But with the revelation that the other cop claimer was the Mafia Rolecop, really I can't not believe him at this point.
I remember, but you're now making a mistake that I'm trying my hardest to prevent. I've already explained how easy it is for TINAS to win in post #568, and you're doing exactly what he needs to do to solve that. I implore you to reconsider.
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Okay, we know Ozle was mafia. Let's pretend for a moment that TINAS was the other mafia. That means I am Jailkeeper! We can't all three be mafia! If you disbelieve TINAS, you must believe me.
If TINAS were mafia, it means that he chose to kill no one last night instead of killing me. Remember, I can't save myself. I can only save others. And I chose to block Axxle--and in this scenario you must believe me! Because TINAS is the other mafia and I am a rational Jalkeeper townie--rather than TINAS because I believed TINAS. So why does he pass the opportunity to kill me for free? There's no way he wins long-term by leaving me alive for more additional rounds for no reason.
Ok, now the reverse. TINAS is the cop, I am lying and a mafia. Why wouldn't I have killed TINAS instead of no one? TINAS is the cop, I can't keep him around. There's no one to protect him, since no one contradicted my Jailkeeper claim.
The mafia can't win by foregoing kills in the night. If either me or TINAS were lying and actually mafia, we could have and should have killed the other one. We can't both be mafia because Ozle is mafia. Therefore, we are both telling the truth.
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Okay, we know Ozle was mafia. Let's pretend for a moment that TINAS was the other mafia. That means I am Jailkeeper! We can't all three be mafia! If you disbelieve TINAS, you must believe me.
If TINAS were mafia, it means that he chose to kill no one last night instead of killing me. Remember, I can't save myself. I can only save others. And I chose to block Axxle--and in this scenario you must believe me! Because TINAS is the other mafia and I am a rational Jalkeeper townie--rather than TINAS because I believed TINAS. So why does he pass the opportunity to kill me for free? There's no way he wins long-term by leaving me alive for more additional rounds for no reason.
Ok, now the reverse. TINAS is the cop, I am lying and a mafia. Why wouldn't I have killed TINAS instead of no one? TINAS is the cop, I can't keep him around. There's no one to protect him, since no one contradicted my Jailkeeper claim.
The mafia can't win by foregoing kills in the night. If either me or TINAS were lying and actually mafia, we could have and should have killed the other one. We can't both be mafia because Ozle is mafia. Therefore, we are both telling the truth.
TINAS is mafia and didn't kill you because he was hoping you'd come to that conclusion and be completely unaccounted for till the end of the game. Killing you or not the game would still last the same number of days.
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Queue TINAS posting something unhelpful.
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Rediculous. Hilarious.
(referring to this in above post)
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Not really sure what you expect me to post that is "helpful" at this point. I've outed one mafia, helped to pinpoint the other. There's pretty much no analysis left to do. You either believe me, or you don't. Obviously you don't... well you do and you're just lying about it, but that's what you have to do at this point. I'm just watching and waiting really. Nothing left to say. My work is done.
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The Herbalist showed up to tend to pops's Gardens. Thisisnotasmile sadly informed her that pops had passed. The Herbalist was very upset - pops had promised to pay her next week.
Vote Count
Axxle (2) - Thisisnotasmile, Robz
Thisisnotasmile (1) - Axxle
Not Voting - ftl, O, Davio
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I think I'm going to have to go and revote axxle, and pray that if he isn't mafia, FTL and Davio share my logic
VOTE:AXXLE
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I think I'm going to have to go and revote axxle, and pray that if he isn't mafia, FTL and Davio share my logic
VOTE:AXXLE
That won't help if one of you wake up dead. TINAS seems to be successfully pulling Robz's strings.
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I think I'm going to have to go and revote axxle, and pray that if he isn't mafia, FTL and Davio share my logic
VOTE:AXXLE
That won't help if one of you wake up dead. TINAS seems to be successfully pulling Robz's strings.
If both live tomorrow, maybe TINAS will say who he investigated first, and to what result, giving us better odds of confirmation.
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I think I'm going to have to go and revote axxle, and pray that if he isn't mafia, FTL and Davio share my logic
VOTE:AXXLE
That won't help if one of you wake up dead. TINAS seems to be successfully pulling Robz's strings.
If both live tomorrow, maybe TINAS will say who he investigated first, and to what result, giving us better odds of confirmation.
Maybe... I hope you know what you're doing. Be careful.
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My opinion on the matter hasn't changed.
While it's tempting to drag the game along more with Ftl's proposition, I don't think it's necessary.
I'm pretty sure Axxle is mafia. If he's not, there's a good chance we will win the game in the next round or the round after that.
I'd like to win now.
Vote: Axxle
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And that's enough to lynch, I think?
Obvious choice is obvious I suppose. Let's hope that's gg, guys!
If I'm in another game I'll try to be less hesitant about lynching, I think in all three days I was too hesitant.
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Davio was sick of all the even participation lynch scene crap and decided to do all the investigating on his own. He went to Axxle's kingdom to try to figure out what kind of man he was. Right out front there was a Garden, yep.. But Davio didn't see any others around. He did see a Cellar, though, that's a good sign. And a copy of Horse Traders, that's cool. And a Pawn, neat. Wait... why just one copy of all these things?
Davio travelled to the corner of the kingdom farthest from the other Gardeners, he knew that's where he could find the dirty truth. His gut wrenched when he discovered it - eight county Fairs. Pops's lay dead in a cart dressed in facepaint and loose clothes, a child was being pushed around in the cart in front of it and screaming for escape from the "monster". He saw Axxle walking away from the fair carrying a Horn of Plenty of sweets. Davio followed him silently.
Axxle travelled a mile away to a Black Market dealer. He paid the dealer a Loan and a Stash and bought an Apprentice, clearly a child slave the Black Market dealer had tied up in back. Davio was too disgusted, he came flying out of the bushes, confident he had O, ftl, and Robz's blessing in his act of violence. He choked Axxle until his face was as pale as he had painted poor pops'.
The Black Market dealer complained, "Hey, that guy was my only customer left!" With that, Davio knew peace had been restored to the Gardens.
Axxle, Mafia Goon is lynched
Axxle and Ozle lose.
goober, theory, Robz8888, Thisisnotasmile, O, Davio, and ftl, you are the victors of Mafia I!
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Congrats to you all! Very enjoyable.
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Awesome!!!!! We win!
Thanks to everyone for playing, this was really really really fun.
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What a great read. Well played, everyone.
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Well, good game all!
First I want to address TINAS: I'm sorry for blowing up on you earlier. I figured that with both a Cop and a Jailer in the game the only way we could win is if we lynched one of you that day, and in order for you all not to suspect me I thought that making my vote look like it came from frustration or anger I could play that up Day 3. Unfortunately that didn't happen. I very much enjoyed your play in all honesty, a little unorthodox perhaps but I saw where you were coming from.
It's unfortunate (for us mafia) that TINAS and Robz both turned out to be roles and FTL was quickly acquitted. These were the three I was hoping to mislynch. Both Ozle and myself made some critical mistakes Night 1 and Day 2 that cost us the game. I really should have NKed TINAS after he said something like "You won't regret letting me live, I'll definitely pull my weight." I was suspicious of the statement as a cop tell but I should have caught on sooner.
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I think you guys played well considering you got unlucky with TINAS being the Cop and catching Ozle and the fact that I am blocked him Night 1 (really, I was trying to protect him!).
I still can't believe TINAS almost went to his grave on Day 1 keeping quiet about being Cop! And it worked.
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The highlight of this game for me came from the quicktopic - which I believe pops will be posting a link to shortly
This crow is delicious
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It makes sense to discuss the game in the spectator thread, since comments and criticism are already collected there.
http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/peKW3xvFerm
I'm not going to stop you from posting here too though.
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It makes sense to discuss the game in the spectator thread, since comments and criticism are already collected there.
http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/peKW3xvFerm
I'm not going to stop you from posting here too though.
Is there anything in that quicktopic about Mafia II? I'm curious to read/join, but won't if Mafia II is discussed there as well. (Which is why I didn't join the spectator thread when it was first started.)
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Well, Galz and I are already in it, so you might as well. They say Mafia II is more boring than Mafia I, but that's it. Yes, though, we should refrain from talking about Mafia II and I hope the other people in the quicktopic will refrain as well now that it is public...
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Well, Galz and I are already in it, so you might as well. They say Mafia II is more boring than Mafia I, but that's it. Yes, though, we should refrain from talking about Mafia II and I hope the other people in the quicktopic will refrain as well now that it is public...
Thanks, Robz. Lol at the "boring" comment. Sure, we may not have a TINAS among us, but it certainly hasn't felt boring being a part of it. :)
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I had the same concerns Volt, but I didn't want to be left out of the Mafia-I end party, so took a peek. Nothing overly dangerous for us. I posted something REAL brief re: Mafia-II compared to Mafia-I, and nothing I haven't said elsewhere (simply that while it may be more "boring" to watch than Mafia-I, and we may be doing worse, I'm still glad my first game was in M-II).
Still, only staying on M-I topics now, because M-II IS still ongoing.
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Wooohooo, well done team! And ggs to the unfortunate ones, Ozle and Axxle. I guess the -le gave you away!
I'm especially proud that I had it right 2/3 times, but then again, I still believe Theory's a double agent.
I'm thankful of TINAS who did a lot of the heavy lifting. Even though I never trusted him fully, I always thought he was good to have around since any post from him generated a lot of counter posts. And Robz, good job on the jailing.
I don't know if some of the spectators ever thought it was me, but I tried to just play it as straight up as possible even if this may have caused me being killed at night. Somehow I was always in the middle of everyone's suspicion lists, but I think this is the best possible spot.
Thanks to Pops for organizing this round, good job!
I'd also like to apologize to Theory, I really thought he was Mafia. Reading the quicktopic I see that some had problems with my accusations, but the reason I kept suspecting Theory was because I pointed my finger right at him and he never said: "Wait a minute, I'm not mafia, I'm town, here's why..." Everytime I put some heat on him, he was always shifting attention to TINAS as fast as possible. This only let my suspicions grow and that's why I never changed my vote after voting for him. I was really surprised he was a vanilla townie like, why didn't you defend yourself a little?
At least I was right about TINAS from the beginning and I'm glad I never jumped on that bandwagon. :P
Oh, and this was actually my first time playing Mafia over the internet, so any blatant errors I made were due to inexperience. I didn't say anything about this during the game, because I feared it would effect the outcome or the image I had already built of myself and would have led to either being lynched or killed during the night.
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Oh, yes, a BIG thank-you to Pops for organizing!
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At least I was right about TINAS from the beginning and I'm glad I never jumped on that bandwagon. :P
Oh, and this was actually my first time playing Mafia over the internet, so any blatant errors I made were due to inexperience. I didn't say anything about this during the game, because I feared it would effect the outcome or the image I had already built of myself and would have led to either being lynched or killed during the night.
These two.
I also take credit for actively campaigning against the first-day lynch of TINAS, that would have been disasterous.
*gloats some more*
We *did* get pretty lucky with power roles, though.
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I made a MAJOR mistake in this game that I wish I could have taken back
I was convinced that once I was outed that there would be no hope for me, and once I was dead the next obvious target was Axxle.
So I LIED about who I investigated to deliberately shift suspicion onto Robz, which would have got him lynched if he hadn't been the bloody Jailkeeper!
If I realised that I wasnt dead and buried straight away, I would actually have told the truth and said I investigated O and then I think this whole game would have gone differently!!
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good game Good game, sorry for dissapearing half way through for a few days
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So I LIED about who I investigated to deliberately shift suspicion onto Robz, which would have got him lynched if he hadn't been the bloody Jailkeeper!
Well, I'm not sure I agree with your conclusion there. It wouldn't have gotten him lynched, because after you died we knew you were Mafia and would have ignored whatever you said. Who you investigated told us nothing about that person, it was solely information about you.
What you needed to do, I think, was to get us to lynch TINAS first, before you - and to do that, you needed to play like a believable cop, at least enough to sway those of us who were suspicious of TINAS in the first place. You needed to pick who to pretend to investigate not based on who you wanted to cast suspicion on, but based on who you would have investigated if you actually were a cop.
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I was trying to set him up as my partner by saying I investigated him, you would then suspect me of lying about that and he would have the eye cast on him, I figured it would count against him when the reckoning came and I was lynched
Totally agree that I should have said who I would have investigated if I was a cop, that was my mistake as I mentioned. I didnt because I thought I'd get auto lynched pretty quickly, so would be better to spend that time trying to save my partner. Obviously with the benefit of hindsight....
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So yeah. Ozle put up much more of a fight than I first expected when I came out as cop. I 75% expected him to throw his hands in the air and say "alright, you've got me". He gave me a good run for his money. Wasn't so worried about Axxle's attempts though, as while they were very thorough and attacking, I didn't really see how anybody could not believe me at that point.
I took a lot of stick during the game, but I want to make you all know (I'm looking mostly at Ozle, Axxle, and Ftl) that I've got no hard feelings. It's the nature of the game. I play hard and I win hard.
Good game all.
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It makes sense to discuss the game in the spectator thread, since comments and criticism are already collected there.
http://www.quicktopic.com/47/H/peKW3xvFerm
I'm not going to stop you from posting here too though.
That's quite an interesting read... the consensus was that it was O/TINAS the entire times until ozle got lynched ::)
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Haha, you got some stick because I was trying to set you up as Mafia!
From reading the Quicktopic it looks like I won everybody over in there, just not the three that counted (O, Davio and Ftl)
I'd have got away with it if it wernt for those meddling kids!
*shakes fist*
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And yeah, despite me not ever wanting to be linked the the quicktopic ever, I read it. I lol'd. I stand by what I said during the game: I'm sorry it had to be you Theory, but we were much better off lynching you than me. On the plus side, you kind of helped me to decide to investigate Ozle with your "it's clear who's making an alibi" comment when only me and Ozle had spoken. I knew it wasn't me, so I thought maybe somehow you had picked up some reads from Ozle. He certainly wasn't top of my list but I kept him in the back of my mind while re-reading the topic thanks to that comment.
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I dont particularily think I gave off too much the first day, with the exception of voting for you, but I thought I made a good case for that as you were acting suspicious, and played the newbie card well!
If you hadnt called me out as Mafia I think I would have survived quite a few days under the radar, doing just enough.
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My biggest reason for believing theory's O/TINAS theory was O was just so supportive of TINAS. It really felt like they were buddies to me. That and I suspected TINAS for all the same reasons anyone else did.
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My biggest reason for believing theory's O/TINAS theory was O was just so supportive of TINAS. It really felt like they were buddies to me. That and I suspected TINAS for all the same reasons anyone else did.
Yeah - in the Ozle V TINAS, I was semi suspicious of both, but my eventual caving and thinking TINAS was because of O's behavior, not because of Ozle - That and secret mafia theory is so convincing....
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http://dominion.isotropic.org/gamelog/201205/31/game-20120531-182121-1ba42655.html
First game I automatched with Axxle today.
Figure out why I linked it.
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Well, that fit well with your flavor text... Gardens kingdom all the way!
Except this time, Axxle didn't kill you. .
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Also Fairgrounds, but you went for them more than Axxle...
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Just got a chance to read through all the gameplay that happened after I died. Really makes we wish I hadn't gotten myself killed off so early, it looked like a terribly fun game all the way to the end. Great job town, it seems like just about everyone made smart, ballsy, and sometimes very lucky decisions. Thanks for the game everyone, especially pops for running it!
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Question for Axxle: Who were you targetting when you were blocked?
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Question for Axxle: Who were you targetting when you were blocked?
I targeted you.
If you died I could blame Robz for not protecting you and possibly lying about his role to try to get him lynched Day 3.
If you were protected then at least the town wouldn't get any information and would continue to not get any information from roles.
I ended up getting Jailed and you saw my tactics that time.
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Thanks, Robz. Lol at the "boring" comment. Sure, we may not have a TINAS among us, but it certainly hasn't felt boring being a part of it. :)
It certainly wasn't boring when I was a part of it, though I have to admit that as time dragged on, I just wanted the voting to be over with.
I find the contrast between Mafia I and II interesting. Mafia I had a lucky reveal that made Day 2 fascinating to watch. Mafia II had a lucky assassination that left the town with nothing, so we just spun our wheels until people said, "screw it."
I was definitely interested in reading Mafia I. If I weren't already a part of Mafia II, I don't know that I would have found it as interesting. Definitely, Mafia I had some great soap opera moments with the roles and certainties.
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I've been meaning to ask forever...right at the start of the game, pops announced that a mistake was made and the roles were all reshuffled. What happened the first time?
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I reported the mixup; I had gotten my "You are a VT" role PM, but it was addressed to, I think, Ozle? Anyway, I assumed that he'd put one person in the "To:" field of the VT PM, and everyone else in BCC, so all the townies had a confirmed townie in their midst since we all saw the VT PM addressed to Ozle. Instead of BCCing everyone.