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[Eevee]

Guys who think the Eevee-thing is a big deal. I DONT THINK IT'S A BIG DEAL. It's a part of my town read on Cuzz, I think he conducted himself in a towny manner in that situation.

I also think we probably want the Changeling Cop alive for now EVEN if he is scum so I'd advice all the nonvoters (wtf) and all the Cuzzvoters to think of a target. Post the lists theorel suggested you'd post or something.

I really really think Cuzz is a TERRIBLE lynch for today.

[Eevee]

.. unless there is another changeling cop. In that case Cuzz is totally scum outing the cop that could investigate his teammates I don't think that's likely though.

[theorel]

(haven't read) changeling is SK, so no chance of that.

[Eevee]

(haven't read) changeling is SK, so no chance of that.

Uuh, DUMB. I guess I should go back to check which cop is which before posting. 

Well, then I guess we do want to lynch him if we think he isn't town. So, while I still advice you to reconsider (because I DON'T think Cuzz is scum), lynching him isn't that HORRIBLE anymore because I could obviously be wrong and in that case we do wan't to lynch him because investigating for a SK is weak sauce.

[raerae]

He still hasn't address his townread on jimmmmm, still hasn't really given reads, still hasn't voted, and I am out of Delay of Game flags here. Both my previous games when it was possible/clear I was going to die, I was spitting out all the reasonable thoughts and reads I had because I wanted to help town as best I could. He hasn't done that. That either reads crankypants town or caught scum in my eyes.

[Robz888]

Assuming no one counter claims Cuzz, okay, he is the Cop who can find the Serial Killer. He may or may not be town, and there may or may not be a Serial Killer.

Did Joth role the Cops randomly? I ask this because he was very careful to point out that the ALignment Cops could be scum themselves. What I'm saying is, I wonder if he intended for at least one Alignment Cop to be scum. In which case, Cuzz's claim would actually make him more likely to be scum.

I mean, I'm assuming that's not the case? I don't know if you can, or will, tell us, Joth. If Alignment Cops were rolled 100% randomly, then this truly tells us nothing about Cuzz's role, but we should probably lynch someone else.

[Robz888]

He still hasn't address his townread on jimmmmm, still hasn't really given reads, still hasn't voted, and I am out of Delay of Game flags here. Both my previous games when it was possible/clear I was going to die, I was spitting out all the reasonable thoughts and reads I had because I wanted to help town as best I could. He hasn't done that. That either reads crankypants town or caught scum in my eyes.

Delaying the Game isn't such a hugely evil thing to do in this game, though, since we aren't using bankable deadlines.

[raerae]

He still hasn't address his townread on jimmmmm, still hasn't really given reads, still hasn't voted, and I am out of Delay of Game flags here. Both my previous games when it was possible/clear I was going to die, I was spitting out all the reasonable thoughts and reads I had because I wanted to help town as best I could. He hasn't done that. That either reads crankypants town or caught scum in my eyes.

Delaying the Game isn't such a hugely evil thing to do in this game, though, since we aren't using bankable deadlines.

Totally understand but we are at page 41 already and it doesn't strike me as protown to avoid the things he's avoiding.

[Robz888]

Another obvious thought: If there's no SK, Cuzz will probably survive the night. The scum teams don't want to waste a kill on him--they need to hope to hit the other cops. If Cuzz does die, A) We know his Alignment, B) There's probably a Serial Killer.

I actually don't think there's a ton of room for WIFOM here. Like, a non-SK scum-team could shoot Cuzz to make us think we're dealing with an SK, but I don't think that's a big upside for them, because they miss out on taking a shot at the cop who investigates their team.

[Cuzz]

Now who would I lynch:

shraeye:

Theorel pointed out much better than I did why about 2/3 of shraeye's case on me was total junk. Shraeye got a lot of people on board, though so the case had that effect. But I agree with theorel that it looked like a lot of extra filler to make the case seem airtight. About half of it was no more than "Here's another thing Cuzz said." He then kept saying things about how he was becoming "super sure" that I was scum. Sorry, man. You cannot be certain about anything D1. It's just not allowed in this game. So you're either lying scum, or WAY out of line overconfident and wrong town. Shraeye being "super sure" really rubs me the wrong way here.

ash:

Several things recently really flipped him from townread to scumread pretty quickly.

This quote:

Cuzz's frustration in his response to the shraeye case is something I can relate to.  I really can.  I also feel like Cuzz has been dying fairly early in recent games, so that can add to the frustration.

Still, I think he's a good lynch option today.

to me sounds like "yeah he's probably town, but lets lynch him anyway." Scum can't know who's town, but this could be ash knowing that I'm not on his team and therefore concluding I'm probably town.

The next two posts combined:

Okay, vote: Cuzz

This is based on his interactions with others and shraeye's well-laid out case.

That's L-2.

Also, shraeye looks terrible if Cuzz flips town.

Ash sheeps shraeye in the laziest way possible (what interactions with which others? what parts of shraeye's case?), and then IMMEDIATELY tried to make sure all the blame will head to shraeye if and when I flip town. It's again like he's anticipating I will flip town, and sorry man, but you do not get off scot free for lynching a townie just because someone else did all the legwork.

Two more things: ash votes nolynch for some reason, and also fails to understand why Dsell should be a top townread and tries to make me sound anti-town for saying so. Also puts words in my mouth saying that I made Dsell an IC, which I took care not to imply.

This quote too:

Cuzz, who are you willing to sheep at this point?

I dunno if it's helpful to answer this right now. If I say a few names here and one of them turns out to be scum then they can use that to manipulate my vote.

That's a good and fair answer.

and this one

@Cuzz -- yeah, probably.  Still, at least I feel your pain, right?

both sound kinda like he knows I'm town. It's like "yeah man, I'm on your side. But I still want to lynch you."

Glooble:

Lurked hard, came back with an emotional defense when the wagon built, but yuma made a good point that the wagon probably dissolved too quickly, and the defense would be quite easy to fake as scum. Also his sheep vote of shraeye is weak and does not contribute anything to the case or refer to any particularly convincing part of it.

Shraeye's analysis is extremely convincing to me.

Vote: Cuzz

Also, the lurking thing again. Has contributed more only since being called out for lurking.

Galz:

Just don't get usual super pro-town Galz here. I don't love this argument, because it's the same one made against Volt in XVI which I knew was bunk at the time and felt bad about making, but it's still a bad feeling. And his case on me about my early D1 posts is just really bad. Again, such things jump out to me and I will use them as evidence all I want, omgus or not.

Others:

I get bad vibes from Munch and mcmc, in that they're kind of hiding in the background a bit. Munch is usually more vocal, so it especially seems out of character there. I'm not sure what to expect from mcmc so not as sure there.

And liopoil is lurking like crazy now, and needs to get some contribution on the table.

raerae is getting a bit bloodthirsty toward me right now, but I dunno if it makes her scum. I think she's probably just got blinders on and can't let go of her thought that I'm scum. I just feel like everything I say is sending her into a rage.

Anyway, most substantial case above is obvious. Vote: ashersky

[Cuzz]

Another obvious thought: If there's no SK, Cuzz will probably survive the night. The scum teams don't want to waste a kill on him--they need to hope to hit the other cops. If Cuzz does die, A) We know his Alignment, B) There's probably a Serial Killer.

I actually don't think there's a ton of room for WIFOM here. Like, a non-SK scum-team could shoot Cuzz to make us think we're dealing with an SK, but I don't think that's a big upside for them, because they miss out on taking a shot at the cop who investigates their team.

This is a good point. The WIFOM thing was part of why I was hesitant to claim because I thought non-SK scum would want to kill me anyway. But you're right that there might not be too big an upside. It would just screw with town's knowledge of the setup, though, which is never a terrible thing for scum to do.

[Robz888]

@Cuzz, of your cases above, I think the ashersky thing has merit. I also had a big townread on ashersky, but I can't ignore his very scummy comments about you, and how your flip would make shraeye look bad. Your flip (if you flipped town) makes the people who never did any work toward understanding you, who sheeped the vote on you half-heartedly, or who said they had mild town-reads on you but voted you anyway... those are the people who look scummy. And that definitely includes Ash.

(Now, it's true your claim isn't the same thing as you actually flipping town.)

[Robz888]

On the other hand, I believe ashersky was the tip tip top of the post count, or just below me, or something. Super active people are more likely town than scum.

[Galzria]

He still hasn't address his townread on jimmmmm, still hasn't really given reads, still hasn't voted, and I am out of Delay of Game flags here. Both my previous games when it was possible/clear I was going to die, I was spitting out all the reasonable thoughts and reads I had because I wanted to help town as best I could. He hasn't done that. That either reads crankypants town or caught scum in my eyes.

Delaying the Game isn't such a hugely evil thing to do in this game, though, since we aren't using bankable deadlines.

Totally understand but we are at page 41 already and it doesn't strike me as protown to avoid the things he's avoiding.

I honestly agree with Raerae here. Like I mentioned in my previous post, I feel like so little has changed over the past ~300 posts (probably more), that all we're doing is mucking up the water for good reads on future days no matter who we end up lynching, and regardless of what they flip.

On top of that, Cuzz feels like he's digging in his heels making every last pro-town thing he could do take an extra 3 pages. Town read on Jimmm? "Nope, not saying." Fully fleshed out reads for people to look back on? "Jimmm is town, but I won't say why." Claim before lynch? "Nah, I think not."

Yeah, he just claimed, but he's dragging on instead of actively helping, and it feels like he's just trying to wait the clock out until people get bored of his wagon and move on. It's very unhelpful town play at BEST, and as you yourself noted Robz, you know full well that Cuzz will do anything in his power to get out of a lynch when scum.

Furthermore, I find his latest defense of my initial case incredibly underwhelming. "How dare you make a read on someone within the first hundred posts of a game? I expect better of you!" - Honestly, trying to guilt me into unvoting isn't going to work. And on top of that, I treat RVS with the same level of scrutiny as any other time in the game. Scum can be caught there just as "easily" as anywhere.

On top of that, I encourage everybody to actually go back and read those first few pages. Cuzz's defense of "Well, the game was only a few hours old so none of that is relevant" is bunk. RVS didn't last 1/10 what it usually does because of Eevee/Dsell. I've never scrutinized Cuzz over his joke RVS vote on Eevee - but it's his 7 posts after when -yes, just a few hours into the game- there was REAL content to comment on, instead of talking about the setup information posted in post #1. His "Joth should fix this" was hardly a contribution to the debate, and didn't take any side whatsoever. Instead he kept his mouth closed on the actual issue until more than a day later, when it was mostly resolved and he could judge where everybody stood.

He's still absolutely my top scum read, and I honestly feel that dragging the day on even longer is only going to bedetrimental to our ability to put ANY information gained to any use.

[Eevee]

On the other hand, I believe ashersky was the tip tip top of the post count, or just below me, or something. Super active people are more likely town than scum.

That, and ashersky surely tends to look very scummy as town.

[raerae]

Cuzz, I'm not upset at all. I am only confused. What you're saying isn't convincing me one way or another but what you refuse to say is saying a great deal. Are you somehow in cahoots with Jimmmmm? Is that why you'll only tell us you believe he's town?

You finally voted and with reasonable reason so I'm happy with that. It did take you a while though and isn't based on anything prior to this vote surge so...meh.

All, I am pushing for cuzz's lynch. Fully admit that. This day needs to end and, like it or not, shraeye's case has been the best one presented today. Does it have some weak spots? Yes. But what kind of fool-proof case can you look for D1? If anybody can present something more solid, please do.  And that was a very serious question, guys, D1 cases are usually weakish, right? Why do we continue to say this case is weak when nothing stronger has been brought forth?

Ok, done for now since lunch is over, have to get back to work.

[Robz888]

Cuzz, I'm not upset at all. I am only confused. What you're saying isn't convincing me one way or another but what you refuse to say is saying a great deal. Are you somehow in cahoots with Jimmmmm? Is that why you'll only tell us you believe he's town?

You finally voted and with reasonable reason so I'm happy with that. It did take you a while though and isn't based on anything prior to this vote surge so...meh.

All, I am pushing for cuzz's lynch. Fully admit that. This day needs to end and, like it or not, shraeye's case has been the best one presented today. Does it have some weak spots? Yes. But what kind of fool-proof case can you look for D1? If anybody can present something more solid, please do.  And that was a very serious question, guys, D1 cases are usually weakish, right? Why do we continue to say this case is weak when nothing stronger has been brought forth?

Ok, done for now since lunch is over, have to get back to work.

I agree that the case was weak, but contained enough merit to settle for Cuzz's lynch, taking into account his medium post count, only appearing early on to make a joke, withholding, etc. But that was before his claim. All things being equal, we want the cops alive. And if we do leave Cuzz alive, the nightkills are going to give us an uncommon amount of likely-accurate information about Cuzz and the scumteams.

[jotheonah]

To answer Robz setup question: cop alignment was rolled randomly like everyone else's (exception: IC variant if any). If a cop rolled the same alignment as they investigate for, I re-rolled them. So all three cops could be scum, all could be town, or some could be scum and some could be town.

[Eevee]

I think theorel's case on shraeye was/is stronger than shraeye's case on Cuzz. The fact that I think Cuzz is towny might make me a bit biased here though.

[jotheonah]

The reason for that, by the way, is that in the blitz game that had a similar setup with one useless cop, etc., I felt that it was a little too powerful that the cops in that game essentially became ICs if they weren't counterclaimed.

[Robz888]

The reason for that, by the way, is that in the blitz game that had a similar setup with one useless cop, etc., I felt that it was a little too powerful that the cops in that game essentially became ICs if they weren't counterclaimed.

Good point, oh how I HATED being scum in that game.

[Eevee]

The reason for that, by the way, is that in the blitz game that had a similar setup with one useless cop, etc., I felt that it was a little too powerful that the cops in that game essentially became ICs if they weren't counterclaimed.

Good point, oh how I HATED being scum in that game.

Is it more pleasant in this game?

[Robz888]

The reason for that, by the way, is that in the blitz game that had a similar setup with one useless cop, etc., I felt that it was a little too powerful that the cops in that game essentially became ICs if they weren't counterclaimed.

Good point, oh how I HATED being scum in that game.

Is it more pleasant in this game?

I wouldn't know, but I'll take your word for it.

[Eevee]

The reason for that, by the way, is that in the blitz game that had a similar setup with one useless cop, etc., I felt that it was a little too powerful that the cops in that game essentially became ICs if they weren't counterclaimed.

Good point, oh how I HATED being scum in that game.

Is it more pleasant in this game?

I wouldn't know, but I'll take your word for it.

No, you!

[mcmcsalot]

I don't see how keeping cuzz alive because he is the sk cop is smart. He is still just as likely as before to be scum and all he does is investigate one person a night to look for an sk that might not even be there?