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[gkrieg13]

Starting with a reread of mcmcsalot.

Mcmc flipped JOAT, so we know that mafia picked at least that modification, so town has at least 3 roles with two of them dead.

Space. Space don’t work they just say space stinger space

I am finding you quite confusing :-P

Vote: mcmc

Then it’s working! You scum?

Also, hi everyone! Feels like it's been a while!!

Yea I was shocked when robs told me a new game had opened it was only one game after the last one I played feels like it has been a long long time.

Interaction with Space seems like it doesn't point to anything about Space's alignment.

What did I start? A meaningless day 1 wagon?

Oh I actually thought it was a good wagon before you called it meaningless. Let’s start a meaningful one. Vote: joth

Votes joth early as kind of an after-RVS vote. Makes me lean scummier on joth.

Unvote from RVS.

@mathdude, did you in fact find ashersky scummy? He's the only one so far who has pinged any scum bells for me.

Vote: ashersky.

PPE: Yeah, saw that coming...

Ash has not pinged scum bells for me at all. Why do you?

Comments on ash. Sees that the case on ash is weak and starts to poke at it. Makes me feel townier on ash, seems like mcmc thinks ash is unlikely to be mafia or traitor, so wants to put pressure on EFHW for having a semi-unexplained vote.

Actually he mainly just comments on joth D1, which is probably not something someone does with their partner?

Not much to go off with mcmc's posts alone. Looks like I will have to see how others interacted with him.

[gkrieg13]

Also not sure if someone mentioned this, but Robz dying N1 seems more likely that he successfully bodyguarded someone right? So that means a likely N1 kill was saved?

[gkrieg13]

Woah, both brother are dead. But hey, the vig got mcmc, hell yeah!

I need to setup the VC, I thought I was going to die, lol. I probably would've if Robz hadn't protected me, who knows.

Space's locktown, they were pushing mcmc all day long, just look back and see. Everything they said implied mcmc was scum.

So, where do we start today?

I'm going to start reading D2 first and then go back to D1 if I have time.

I'm surprised MiX thinks that Robz protected him.

[gkrieg13]

I’m taking Monday off work because it’s my birthday. So I will probably spend some of it te-reading day 1 for nuggets of truth. But that’s days away.

Scum loves to target each other day 1? Idk that that’s as locky as you think.

True that they like to target each other D1, but I don't think Space likes to put forth decent cases on their scum buddies D1. They more like to put together weak cases that are based on things they don't think other people will hop on the wagon for.

[gkrieg13]

In contrast to my scumpoint allocation for faust and Dylan, I think joth gets an allocation of townpoints, because looking back at a few of mcmc's prior scum-games, he's really not one to bus D1.

Yup, agree with Space here.

[gkrieg13]

Yeah, that was the scummiest post of the game so far... I hate breaking my personal new-guy D1 pass, but, it sounds like you’ve played enough elsewhere to not truly be a newbie, so yeah, this is fine.

Vote: mathdude

I just stumbled upon this post: hmm, Dylan was already voting for math...

I would be very much surprised if there isn't scum in faust/ash/Dylan, they all jumped on the math wagon very quickly, and right as the mcmc wagon was growing.

Vote: Dylan, I also find his play overall scummy, and it's a good SoD2 vote regardless.

I have already seen MiX's claim from later D2, and his other posts here really do look like he thought scum and others had caught on to his breadcrumbing, so I'm inclined to believe him.

[gkrieg13]

@faust, do you think Robz was bodyguarding someone who died (if so, who?) or do you think they shot Robz?

[gkrieg13]

I did an EFHW re-read, and I thought my d1 impression of her was that she was at least thinking for herself and not coming over as too scummy. She does flip-flop a bit on how much sympathy she shows for our newbie's predicament, though (#188/#237/#317), which let her put her vote in a convenient place on the mathdude wagon.

Possibly more interesting is the really early game, because she followed mcmc onto Robz before Robz had even joined the game. On its own that's nothing, but then she was also right behind mcmc on Joth from #273, which is the pivot in the middle of her flip-flop on mathdude, which maybe looks a little bit more like something.

Of course, the next thing in this like of thinking is to check who else followed mcmc that much, and how common it was across the rest of d1 for two players to land up next to each other on wagons like that by chance (or design?) anyway.

Another good analysis by Space. I'm pretty certain they are town.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry that took a minute.

Yesterday I found EFHW scummy for laying low, then being flip with MiX, but I find her response to Space and her description of the scum ones of mathdude really off.  The EFHW wagon had no traction yesterday, and I’m not sure that will be any different today, but I’m somewhat buoyed by one of the other people who found her scummy was Robz (the other was MiX) so

Vote: EFHW

I’m not seeing why gkrieg is scummy... this week kind of snuck up on a bunch of us so im cutting all kinds of slack on activity level for now.

I'm curious why you think EFHW's defense to Space's case was not good?

[gkrieg13]

Just reread the game.

Chum to scum:

Space
joth
EFHW
ash
faust
Didds
Dylan
gkrieg

joth is town, ash is townie but fits in a lot of scumteams, Space is obv!town, faust is scum with ash or now, Didds is not doing much but then again she's tunneling EFHW less than I usually am, EFHW is town, Dylan's townie with a lot of bad reads and very scummy pushes that make him more scum than town, gkrieg hasn't done anything that town does yet.

Vote: gkrieg

So the scummiest person on your list is someone why hasn't done anything townie yet? So basically null?

[gkrieg13]

faust is scum with ash

God I wish!

There would've already been a huge fight if they were scum together.

[gkrieg13]

Sorry that took a minute.

Yesterday I found EFHW scummy for laying low, then being flip with MiX, but I find her response to Space and her description of the scum ones of mathdude really off.  The EFHW wagon had no traction yesterday, and I’m not sure that will be any different today, but I’m somewhat buoyed by one of the other people who found her scummy was Robz (the other was MiX) so

Vote: EFHW

I’m not seeing why gkrieg is scummy... this week kind of snuck up on a bunch of us so im cutting all kinds of slack on activity level for now.

Can you be more specific about how I seem off?

Lots of defense, not much offense, the odd exchange with MiX.

Joth, (happy birthday!!) I’m not sure I’ve enough of a sense to sell you or anyone on EFHW, but she seems to be way less invested in scum hunting than townEFHW.  But I’m not ready to scream it from the mountaintops. Just more than I can say about anyone else at this point.

I agree with Didds here, EFHW is not doing very much scum hunting, not really asking anyone any questions, which seems like normal town behavior for her.

[gkrieg13]

No. I don't parse everything he says, because he tends to leave a lot of steps out. I'll try, but if it's too obscure I might just move on. I just know his method works for him, when he's not tunneling me, anyway, so I don't read it as scummy.

Okay.

Hey EFHW, who do you scumread currently? Who do you townread currently? Who would you vote for if you had to? What are you currently rereading? What are you doing in this Day? Cause if you have nothing to do I suggest you reread me and actually try to understand what I'm saying, it's not just rambling even if it looks like it.

I'm trying to play the game and if you just won't read my posts then why the hell do I even bother.

I do read what you say. But you jump around a lot, and the logic behind your conclusions is often obscure, and chances are good you'll change your mind pretty soon, so I wait and see if it comes up again. I've read you closely enough to be townreading you. Unlike many people, I have never scumread you for your style.

I'm OMGUS scumreading Didds. Space is unusually cranky. That's probably more of a towntell than anything. Dylan, gkrieg, ash and joth could easily go either way. Townreading faust.

Why are you townreading faust?

[gkrieg13]

This game is in need of an intervention.

How does MiX make sense as scum here? What, the scumteam just decided to get two members on a mission to push through a quickexile on D1? Come on. MiX and mcmc are seasoned players, and this is terrible play. No way it happens. Believing anything else is just wishful thinking.

Now come the people who will argue that "sure, that may be true, but if MiX is the Traitor then scum would not have been aware of having 2 people on the wagon". Yeah, great, so you case is that MiX can be exactly one scum role that we don't even know is in the game? Sounds to me like a good reason to not exile him.

I disagree that scum doesn't pull a double quickhammer. You can get a lot of mileage out of arguing exactly what you are arguing right now.

[gkrieg13]

Mafia players can have bad games, yes; they don't usually intentionally set themselves up for bad games.

They do make gambits though.

[gkrieg13]

And the vig claim, unfortunately, doesn't give MiX any town points in my book, if anything it's the opposite, though I suppose we should consider keeping him alive strategically if there's no counterclaim.

Lol are you insane?

Agreed with faust here.

Also, unvote

[gkrieg13]

Vote: SpaceAnemone now that there is no longer a reason not to.

Do you think my read's that bad?

Well... I didn't see much in your read other than "Space voted for mcmc". Space is capable of bussing and mcmc was never in any danger of being exiled, so that doesn't exactly appeal to me. And I do think that I know Space better than you. They have been very illogical in their pursuit of your wagon; Space likes to point out that when I'm not making sense, I'm scum; the same holds true for them.

@faust: You're going to have more traction telling us we're wrong if you provide an alternate case/wagon. Frankly, I don't think we can rule out bad play from the scum team because the quickhammer was bad play and it happened.

A quickhammer isn't bad play. It would have been decent if mcmc thought that mathdude might flip Traitor.

Wait, wouldn't it be way worse if math was traitor?

Well, the way I see it, mcmc was trying to grab some towncred with that quote that he pulled.
(now that I think of it... it is interesting that he grabbed that quote. Makes me think scum were Traitor-hunting all along, so they probably didn't recruit.)

How has Space been illogical in pursuit of MiX's wagon?

[gkrieg13]

Question for the MiX voters: What exactly do you think was going on at the end of D1, with MiX urging the hammer and mcmc executing it?

It wasn't nearly deadline yet, and MiX was creating an artificial sense of urgency, which mcmc was capitalising on. MiX was taking a clearly terrible course of action in pushing for an immediate exile without thinking through any of the consequences of the claim or how to tease information out of it properly. He was totally failing to engage with posts from people like me or Robz, saying that we should hold off on mathdude, or sort the partial claim out more sensibly. He was reacting to almost everything except those voice-of-reason posts, and claiming he was "on fire" while doing so. If we want not to exile MiX, please convince me that letting him remain in the game to continue that kind of play is actually beneficial to my town wincon.

Just look at that reasoning. There is nothing in here on wagon composition, not even a mention of the fact that this argument would make it so that there are 2 scum on the wagon, no analysis of whether MiX is Traitor or teammate, no nothing.

I think Space decided N1 that MiX would be a good push and then didn't incorporate mcmc's flip into that already premade case.

I see, you answer that here. Hmmmm, that is a good point.

[gkrieg13]

I know that faust holds an extremely low opinion of the utiility of vigs and thinks that they should never shoot and probably should self-vote on day 1 just in case, but the vig we have in this game seems pretty good and maybe worth keeping alive.

i have no idea where this is coming from but it is completely inaccurate.

It's entirely possible I'm mixing you up with someone else. Is it ash? I know there's people on this forum who are really down on vigs.

I remember that discussion but not who fell on which side. I tried to find the thread that this discussion happened in, no success. I did however stumble upon this gem.

lol

[gkrieg13]

(sorry; am in physical pain but am getting better so will be more cheerful soon!)

I hope you feel better soon!

[gkrieg13]

It should be clear to anyone reading that I would not possibly be mcmc's partner here. You had a bit of an (albeit terrible) argument when it came to MiX, seeing as he was the alternative wagon - there the claim would be that it was an attempt to save MiX. But now we know it was town v town, so there is literally zero reason for any scumteam to put all their votes behind a bad misexile.

How should this be clear?

[gkrieg13]

Well... I didn't see much in your read other than "Space voted for mcmc". Space is capable of bussing and mcmc was never in any danger of being exiled, so that doesn't exactly appeal to me. And I do think that I know Space better than you. They have been very illogical in their pursuit of your wagon; Space likes to point out that when I'm not making sense, I'm scum; the same holds true for them.

Yep, and I've already said that your support of MiX, and your pushing for the quick exile of mathdude aren't sensible, and so you're high up my scum list.

Question for the MiX voters: What exactly do you think was going on at the end of D1, with MiX urging the hammer and mcmc executing it?

It wasn't nearly deadline yet, and MiX was creating an artificial sense of urgency, which mcmc was capitalising on. MiX was taking a clearly terrible course of action in pushing for an immediate exile without thinking through any of the consequences of the claim or how to tease information out of it properly. He was totally failing to engage with posts from people like me or Robz, saying that we should hold off on mathdude, or sort the partial claim out more sensibly. He was reacting to almost everything except those voice-of-reason posts, and claiming he was "on fire" while doing so. If we want not to exile MiX, please convince me that letting him remain in the game to continue that kind of play is actually beneficial to my town wincon.

Just look at that reasoning. There is nothing in here on wagon composition, not even a mention of the fact that this argument would make it so that there are 2 scum on the wagon, no analysis of whether MiX is Traitor or teammate, no nothing.

I think Space decided N1 that MiX would be a good push and then didn't incorporate mcmc's flip into that already premade case.

There doesn't need to be an argument on wagon composition for MiX's eod1 to look terrible. MiX failing to engage with me or Robz urging moderation isn't dependent on whether there are 2 scum on the wagon or not, so why are you saying that it matters to my argument there?

As for analysing wagons, we lost a bodyguard, so we can't even tell whether scum tried to kill on-wagon or off-wagon, and the scummy hammer ended up coming from now-known scum. I did spend a while looking at the voting patterns, and I've already mentioned that I think joth is likely town because of it, given that mcmc doesn't really seem to have bussed d1 in other recent scumgames. Is that the kind of post you're trying to accuse me of not having made, or do you just need the one-scum-in-this-pool sort of predictions I sometimes make, so that then you can accuse me of being scummy for assuming or not assuming where the potential traitor fits in, since those are a lot harder to deduce well when we don't even know if all the scumteam are aware of each other?

Vote:  faust

This is a good defense. Not sure yet if the case makes faust scum though.

[gkrieg13]

@faust: You're going to have more traction telling us we're wrong if you provide an alternate case/wagon.

This was a conclusion I'd come to independently before I say joth post this. Faust was making a big noise asking how MiX was scummy. MiX himself has now said he was being openly scummy to hide his PR, which makes some sense but was unfortunately calibrated, since I found his levels of bad arguments so over-the-top noisy and anti-town as to be kind of offensive. And yet faust kept going back to asking about how people could read MiX scummy, which was not at all moving the conversation onto other possible vote targets.

Oh, is this the OMGUS arriving?

I think I said multiple times that I was waiting for gkrieg and Dylan to answer my questions before moving on with my arguments. I mean, there was time; it's not like I could know that people would be so eager to get that quixile in.

But also, faust doesn't really address the defense here, instead just calls for OMGUS. Maybe he responds to the defense later?

[gkrieg13]

I forgot that the Traitor has a 1-shot BP. Might be worth counterclaiming then I suppose. It doesn't matter because there will be no counterclaim.

If mathdude were still alive, I would bet that faust is coaching here, but alas.

[Swowl]

Vote Count 2.3:

MiX (1): Dylan32
EFHW (1): WestCoastDidds
gkrieg (1): MiX
SpaceAnenome (1): faust
faust (1): SpaceAnenome
Not Voting (4): EFHW, Joth, Ashersky, gkrieg

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to Exile.
Day 2 ends Saturday, March 6th at 5:55pm Forum Time.