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[ashersky]

Welcome to MXXXIX: Adventure Time! Mafia!

Mods: ashersky, teproc (back-up)

This game will use Asher9++, a setup based on C9++ that I've tweaked with the intention of keeping the randomization of PRs intact while making it harder to "solve" the setup.  The entirety of the setup is listed in Post #2.

This game is for 12 players, and will not start until two of the four games ahead of it finish, or are in its final death throes.

Players:
1.  Eevee - inhabiting the body of The Lich, was a Town Cop, removed from the party on Night 2.
2.  scott_pilgrim
3.  Robz888
4.  mail-mi
5.  yuma - inhabiting the body of Lady Rainicorn, was the Mafia Godfather, sent to sleepy town on Day 2.
6.  mcmcsalot - inhabiting the body of Marceline, a Vanilla Townie, got really sick from brown goo on D3.
7.  A Drowned Kernel - inhabiting the body of Gunter the Penguin, was a Town Cop, removed from the party on Night 3.
8.  pingpongsam - inhabiting the body of BMO, a Vanilla Townie, got really sick from brown goo on D4.
9.  raerae - inhabiting the body of The Ice King, was the Mafia Strongman, sent to sleepy town on Day 1.
10. AndrewisFTTW - inhabiting the body of The Goliad, was a Vanilla Townie, removed from the party on Night 1.
11. shraeye - inhabiting the body of Princess Bubblegum, was a 1-Shot Doctor, removed from the body on Night 4.
12. Axxle - inhabiting the body of Jake the Dog, the Mafia Roleblocker, was sent to sleepy town on Day 5.

Spectators Tagged: Jimmmmm, liopoil, Voltaire, Walrus

Day starts/ends:

D1: Start | End
D2: Start | End
D3: Start | End
D4: Start | End
D5: Start

ashersky's Mafia Ruleset

The Golden Rule:
This is a game.  Everyone who signs up to play must be considerate of each other, never get personal, and focus on having fun.  Once the game starts, having signed up is a commitment: inactivity is just as inconsiderate as rude comments.  Read The Civility Pledge before signing up for this game.  If you have not /pledged there, you cannot play here.

The Standard Rules:
1.  No communication between players outside of the game thread or QTs at any time.  This includes passing references, jokes, or cases in other games or threads.
2.  If the game thread or QT is locked, do not post.  If you are unsure if something is locked, ask the mod by PM.
3.  Direct or verbatim quoting of mod-provided information is strictly forbidden.  Paraphrasing is okay.
4.  Town night actions must be submitted by PM to the mod within 24 hours of day's end.  The most recent order will always be valid.
5.  Scum night actions must be submitted in QT within 24 hours of day's end.  Any team member may submit all night actions.  The most recent order(s) will always be valid.
6.  Players must post once every 24 hours.
7.  Do not edit or delete posts, ever.  If you need to clarify or correct something, post again.
8.  Invisible text, fonts size less than 8, and spoiler tags are not allowed.
9.  Cryptography is not allowed.
10.  The time between a lynch being reached and a flip being provided is called twilight.  All players may continue posting during this time, including the lynched player.
11.  Dead players may not post in thread or QT.  A lynched player is not "dead" until a flip has been provided.

The Voting Rules:
1.  Votes should be in this format: Vote: Playername.  Unambigiuous nicknames are acceptable.
2.  Unvotes should be in this format: unvote or Unvote: Playername.
3.  Unvotes are not required if changing your vote from one player to another.
4.  You may vote: no lynch if you prefer.
5.  Lynches occur when a simple majority (rounded up) of living players is reached.  Once reached, a lynch cannot be undone.

The Deadlines:
1.  Days will last 10 consecutive 24-hour periods.
2.  Nights will last two consecutive 24-hour periods.
3.  Adjustments may be made to ensure days do not start or end on a Friday or Saturday. 

The Rest:
1.  Bold, maroon (or blue) text is reserved for the Mod(s).  Players may not use them.
2.  If you have an issue or problem with the game, please PM the Mod.  Do not post complaints in the game thread.
3.  Mods make mistakes - please point them out gently.  If they can be corrected, they will.  If irreversible, they will stand as final to be commiserated over after the game.
4.  If a mod error disadvantages one faction greatly, the game may be called off.
5.  Bold all in-thread Mod questions and requests so that they don’t get missed.
6.  Prods of inactive players will be issued automatically after 48 hours.  A prodded player has 12 hours to respond or risks replacement.
7.  Players may request a prod after 24 hours without a post.
8.  A player who has been prodded 3 times is subject to replacement without further notice.
9.  In reference to 6-8, "inactive" is defined as not having posted in the game thread AND not having provided notice in the VLA Thread.
10.  All rule violations will be dealt with according to their severity, as determined by the mod.

[ashersky]

Asher9++ is a semi-open setup for 12 players. Setup generation is a randomized process that is open and explained below.

All games include a Universal Back-Up and a Godfather. The remaining 10 roles are determined by rolling six random numbers from 1-100. Each roll is separate. The following number ranges are assigned letters as shown:

1-50: T (Townie. This directly influences scum power roles.) (50/100)
51-60: E (“Either” Cop or Doctor) (10/100)
61-65: C (Cop) (5/100)
66-70: D (Doctor) (5/100)
71-80: V (Vigilante) (10/100)
81-90: M (Mason) (10/100)
91-100: B (Blocker) (10/100)

After the letters have been assigned, the mod refers to the list below to determine which power roles are included.

E Roles*
E = 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop
EE = 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop x2
EEE = Doctor OR Cop; 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop
EEEE = Doctor OR Cop; 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop x2
EEEEE = Doctor OR Cop x2; 1 -Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop
EEEEEE = Doctor OR Cop x2; 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop x2

C Roles
C = 1-Shot Cop
CC = Cop
CCC = Cop; 1-Shot Cop
CCCC = Cop; 1-Shot Cop x2
CCCCC = Cop x2; 1-Shot Cop
CCCCCC = Cop x2; 1-Shot Cop x2

D Roles
D = Doctor
DD = Doctor; 1-Shot Doctor
DDD = Doctor; 1-Shot Doctor x2
DDDD = Doctor x2; 1-Shot Doctor
DDDDD = Doctor x2; 1-Shot Doctor x2
DDDDDD = Doctor x3

Vigilante Roles
V = 1-Shot Vigilante
VV = Vigilante
VVV = Vigilante; 1-Shot Vigilante
VVVV = Vigilante; 1-Shot Vigilante x2
VVVVV = Vigilante x2; 1-Shot Vigilante
VVVVVV = Vigilante x2; 1-Shot Vigilante x2

Mason Roles
M** = 1 Mason
MM = Innocent Child (Confirmed at start of Day 1)
MMM = 2 Masons
MMMM = 2 Masons; Innocent Child
MMMMM = 3 Masons
MMMMMM = 2 Masons; 2 Masons (i.e. two separate pairings)

Blocker Roles
B = Roleblocker
BB = Roleblocker; 1-Shot Roleblocker
BBB = Roleblocker; 1-Shot Roleblocker x2
BBBB = Roleblocker x2; 1-Shot Roleblocker
BBBBB = Roleblocker x2; 1-Shot Roleblocker x2
BBBBBB = Roleblocker x3

Scum Roles (In addition to the Godfather)
TTTTTT*** = Goon x2
TTTTT*** = Goon x2
TTTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker
TTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker
TT = Strongman; Roleblocker
T = Strongman; Roleblocker
0 Ts = Strongman; Roleblocker; 1-Shot Bulletproof****

After power roles are determined from the table above, Vanilla Townies are added to arrive at 12 players.

* "Or" roles are determined randomly
** Single M rolls result in the Universal Backup converting to a Mason
*** 5 or 6 T rolls result in a scum team of Goon - Goon - Godfather. During N0, the team may elect to have one of the two Goons be 1-Shot Bulletproof. This is optional and not required.
**** If there are zero Ts, one member of the mafia team is randomly 1-Shot Bulletproof.

Clarifications:

--If a 1-Shot PR is the first PR to die, the UB will inherit that role, even if the shot was used up. The UB will not receive a new shot.
--If the Universal Backup converts to a Mason due to a single M roll, that player will not be informed of the conversion.
--Mafia Strongman modifier defeats one doctor protection or roleblocker. If two or more doctors successfully protect the target, the kill will fail. If a doctor protects the target and the Strongman is blocked, the kill will fail.  If two roleblockers target the Strongman, the kill will fail.
--The Bulletproof modifier will be revealed upon death, if selected or assigned.

[WalrusMcFishSr]

/in

[Eevee]

why yes, please

[Robz888]

/in

[Archetype]

/in!

[yuma]

auto-/in into ash games

PS: What is adventure time and should I be watching it? (it is something you watch yes?)

[WalrusMcFishSr]

It is a TV show. Ostensibly for children but also quite humorous for adults I think. I really enjoy it.

[ashersky]

auto-/in into ash games

PS: What is adventure time and should I be watching it? (it is something you watch yes?)

What Walrus said.  It is hilarious and awesome and smart, so definitely good for adults.

Also, no knowledge is necessary whatsoever to play.  The set-up is flavor independent.  I'm just going to use the flavor for fun.

[mail-mi]

/tag

[mcmcsalot]

/in love adventure time! Setup looks great too!

[ashersky]

Quick update: flavor setting/story is done.  As mentioned, it's completely irrelevant to the playing of the game, but should be enjoyable to those who watch the show.

[Jimmmmm]

/tag

[liopoil]

/tag

[Voltaire]

/tag

[A Drowned Kernel]

Is a total mafia newbie welcome? If so then /in.

[ashersky]

Is a total mafia newbie welcome? If so then /in.

This set-up is fine for newbies.  Just ask me any questions after it starts up.

[pingpongsam]

/in

I really should not be signing up for another game but damnit, it's Adventure Time, of which I am a huge fan. Of course, I could probably be suckered by just about any other cartoon theme.

I want to be either Ice King or Tree Trunks.

[ashersky]

For the newbie(s) interested, I've put together this quick summary of this mafia game.  I think every mod should/could provide this sort of text for their games, just editing the set-up specific stuff for their own games.

Forum mafia, in its simplest form, is a social deduction game with an uninformed "good" majority (called "Town") and an informed "bad" minority (called "Mafia").  "Town" and "Mafia" are called alignments.  Town members are aware only of their own alignment.  Mafia members are aware of (and can communicate with) the other Mafia, and as such know the alignment of all players in the game.  Players spend "days" posting in the game's forum thread, trying to deduce the alignment of the other players in an effort to meet their win condition.

In this game, there are nine Town members and three Mafia members.  To win, the Town must eliminate all Mafia from the game, generally through a process called lynching.  For the Mafia to win, they must eliminate enough Town members to ensure that they have complete control over the game, generally by comprising at least half of all living players (i.e., if 3 Mafia are alive and 3 Town are alive, the Mafia would win).  They do this through mislynching town members, as well as choosing players to "kill" at night.  A lynch is performed when a majority of living players agree upon a player to be removed from the game.  Agreement is shown through votes, which are tallied by the moderator.  If the lynch target is a town member, a mislynch has occurred.

All players have an alignment, as seen above.  In addition, all players have a role.  The standard role for a Town member is the Vanilla Townie.  The standard role for Mafia is the Mafia Goon.  Other than having the Town or Mafia alignment, a Vanilla Townie or Mafia Goon has no other powers or actions.  However, other roles, called "Power Roles," do have actions to take, generally at night.  These power roles are generally explained by the moderator when assigned, and may have a large or small impact on the game, depending on their use.  The existence of certain power roles could affect whether a win condition for either alignment is met, as well.

In this game, two power roles are guaranteed to be included: a Town Universal Backup and a Mafia Godfather.  All other power roles are determined using the randomization process described in Post #2.  Assigned roles are known only to the players who receive them.  Action are taken at night only, via PM to the moderator, who follows a natural order of resolution when applying them to the game.

The game ends when all Mafia members have been lynched (or otherwise killed) or when Town has an equal or fewer number of living players as Mafia (and no power to stop death).

[Archetype]

I'll need to /out here, ashersky. Hopefully I'll be able to rejoin!

[ashersky]

Alright, I'm itching to mod again, and we have a newbie here!  Let's get this party started!

[ashersky]

Opening flavor is written, and it is hilarious.

[raerae]

..............In...............

[sudgy]

..............In...............

:OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

[Jimmmmm]

Hey it's raerae!

[raerae]

Hey it's raerae!

WHERE?!?!?

[Jimmmmm]

Hey it's raerae!

WHERE?!?!?

You just missed her.

[yuma]

..............In...............

Huzzah!

[Eevee]

out for now

[raerae]

out for now

But...but...but...

[ashersky]

out for now

But...but...but...

Exactly.  But really, he'll re/in.

[ashersky]

Do folks really want to miss an ashersky game?

[yuma]

Do folks really want to miss an ashersky game?

Heck no!

[Eevee]

out for now

But...but...but...

I'm getting prodded left and right! It's not pretty.

[AndrewisFTTW]

My first mafia game. If you're looking for the most clueless person playing, look no further.

/in

[Robz888]

My first mafia game. If you're looking for the most clueless person playing, look no further.

/in

Welcome! Make sure you read the opening post for rules and setup information, but this should be a fine game for a newbie.

[pingpongsam]

Fresh Bloooooood!!!

[AndrewisFTTW]

Fresh Bloooooood!!!

I was expecting more "ONE OF US. ONE OF US."

[Teproc]

My first mafia game. If you're looking for the most clueless person playing, look no further.

/in

Meanwhile, I'll be the most clueless person co-modding. Welcome ! You should be fine, ++ setups aren't too complicated.

[AndrewisFTTW]

My first mafia game. If you're looking for the most clueless person playing, look no further.

/in

Meanwhile, I'll be the most clueless person co-modding. Welcome ! You should be fine, ++ setups aren't too complicated.

First question, what does ++ setup mean?

[Teproc]

++ setups are setups where the mod rolls letters to determine roles. C9++ and JK9++ are the classic examples. This game is a version of C9++ that has been tweaked by ashersky to avoid town "solving" the setup.

Basically they allow the game to have a big variety of available roles without being too crazy most of the time (most people will still be "Vanilla", ie have no roles).

[mcmcsalot]

My first mafia game. If you're looking for the most clueless person playing, look no further.

/in

Meanwhile, I'll be the most clueless person co-modding. Welcome ! You should be fine, ++ setups aren't too complicated.

You will still be a better co-mod than I am a full mod so fear not.

[ashersky]

My first mafia game. If you're looking for the most clueless person playing, look no further.

/in

Yay!

Feel free to PM me questions, or just ask them here.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I don't want to post a bunch of random questions here but I'm trying to follow along with the Mario mafia although I'm having a hard time understanding what most people are talking about. I know A Drowned Kernal is a newbie just like me so I wanted to see how he (she?) is doing. I kinda know what's going on here but can you guys explain this further? Specifically "claiming", and "L-1" and announcing putting someone at L-1. Thanks.

I think most people agreed that the claiming plan was a really bad idea for town, given the setup.

I also agree that a wagon stalling seems like a good indication that it's on scum, and chairs hasn't really given much of a response, so I suppose it's time I stopped waffling. Vote: chairs

Did you realise this was putting chairs at L-1 by the way ? Because you usually announce that, to make sure no one derphammers.

I'd like to reiterate : ADK, did you know you were putting chairs at L-1 earlier ?

[Teproc]

There is a rule that we can't talk about ongoing games at all, especially if we're in them, so you might have to wait a little for a response here.

[AndrewisFTTW]

There is a rule that we can't talk about ongoing games at all, especially if we're in them, so you might have to wait a little for a response here.

Oh, sorry about that.

[Robz888]

I don't want to post a bunch of random questions here but I'm trying to follow along with the Mario mafia although I'm having a hard time understanding what most people are talking about. I know A Drowned Kernal is a newbie just like me so I wanted to see how he (she?) is doing. I kinda know what's going on here but can you guys explain this further? Specifically "claiming", and "L-1" and announcing putting someone at L-1. Thanks.

I can give you general answers.

"Claiming" means telling everyone what role you have, i.e., Vanilla Townie (which is nothing), Doctor, Cop, etc. The mafia generally lie about their role. Usually, we want our PRs (power roles) to not say who they are until they have used their powers successfully, because mafia will night kill them if they know who they are.

"L-1" Means lynch minus one. It means that one more vote for that person kills the person and sends us into night. You announce L-1 ahead of time so that we don't accidentally lynch before we are ready.

[yuma]

I don't want to post a bunch of random questions here but I'm trying to follow along with the Mario mafia although I'm having a hard time understanding what most people are talking about. I know A Drowned Kernal is a newbie just like me so I wanted to see how he (she?) is doing. I kinda know what's going on here but can you guys explain this further? Specifically "claiming", and "L-1" and announcing putting someone at L-1. Thanks.

I will PM you a link to a spectator QT and you can ask all your questions to your heart's content there!

[AndrewisFTTW]

Great, thanks guys!

[ashersky]

4 more and this can start.  Some of you spectators are dead in other games now...

[raerae]

Somebody should put some pressure on shraeye.  He'd like that.  And he likes Adventure Time.  Adventure Time and pressure...kid's weird.

[yuma]

Somebody should put some pressure on shraeye.  He'd like that.  And he likes Adventure Time.  Adventure Time and pressure...kid's weird.

Hey shraeye! Why aren't you playing? Are you scared? Scared that you might get lynched day1!?!?! What can't you handle mafia? What are you intimidated by our mafia prowess?

Here is something you can do to lessen the intimidation factor... dress up like a unicorn.

How was that raerae?

[shraeye]

/in


But anybody who's playing Acquire/DnD/Agricola with me understands exactly how frequent my appearances in the forum are.

[raerae]

yuma, you are a magic man.  It worked!

Also, I'm coaching softball and doing bowling and cooking a lot so activity will be less than it has been in the past but still within the mod-outlined requirements. 

Also also, shraeye is scum.

[shraeye]

I don't want to post a bunch of random questions here but I'm trying to follow along with the Mario mafia although I'm having a hard time understanding what most people are talking about. I know A Drowned Kernal is a newbie just like me so I wanted to see how he (she?) is doing. I kinda know what's going on here but can you guys explain this further? Specifically "claiming", and "L-1" and announcing putting someone at L-1. Thanks.

I can give you general answers.

"Claiming" means telling everyone what role you have, i.e., Vanilla Townie (which is nothing), Doctor, Cop, etc. The mafia generally lie about their role. Usually, we want our PRs (power roles) to not say who they are until they have used their powers successfully, because mafia will night kill them if they know who they are.

"L-1" Means lynch minus one. It means that one more vote for that person kills the person and sends us into night. You announce L-1 ahead of time so that we don't accidentally lynch before we are ready.

Do ask general questions as much as possible, but keep in mind that answers we give once the game starts may be slanted based on the answer-ers alignment.

But even now, in the pregame with no alignments, I want to say that there are many differing opinions on "how one should play."  You'll probably find me/Robz at opposite ends of every debate.  Other people fall in the middle

L-1 DOES mean that there is only one vote required until that person is lynched, which sends us into night.  I would say that 'often people announce L-1 ahead of time to avoid accidental lynches or "accidental" lynches before everyone is ready'.  But often doesn't mean always.

[Archetype]

Acquire

btw, your turn.

[Axxle]

yuma, you are a magic man.  It worked!

/in

[ashersky]

2 slots left, previously held by an Arch and an Eevee.

[scott_pilgrim]

/in

[mail-mi]

okay fine. /in

[ashersky]

And we are full!

Unfortunately, I'm super busy for the next 8 hours, but I'll get PMs out today.

[yuma]

And we are full!

Unfortunately, I'm super busy for the next 8 hours, but I'll get PMs out today.

yay!

I have been out of a mafia game for far too long!

[ashersky]

Finn and Jake had decided to celebrate BMO's birthday with a big party at the treehouse. They invited all of their friends from all over Ooo, and soon the place was rocking with awesome jams, dancing, magic bubbles, and sword fights. Princess Bubblegum and Lady Rainicorn were there, with cupcakes and candy, and Marceline was rocking her bass with the music. Tree Trunks was sitting quietly in a corner, but she was happy inside. The Flame Princess was poking at Gunter the Penguin, who had slipped away from the Ice King's castle to have some stress-free fun.

All of a sudden, the treehouse door smashed inward. The evil Ice King had arrived to ruin the party and steal away the princesses! He had brought help this time, too, since he had lost too many times to Finn and Jake in the past. The big Lich was there, and the Goliad!

"You'll never get the princesses, Ice King! Now get out! It's BMO's birthday party and you are NOT invited!" Finn drew his sword, ready to repel the invaders.

"Oh Finn, funny Finn, you are hopeless. I'll never understand why you continue to fight me. You know I'm super cool and should be included in your parties, but you never invite me. And so, I must destroy you!" The Ice King pulled out a large vial of purple liquid. "This magic potion will take away all your heroic tendencies, Finn. You'll just be a normal guy, who doesn't care about fighting evil anymore. Take this!"

The Ice King threw the potion at Finn. Just as it was about to hit him in the sword, a bottle of green fluid came flying in from the side, saving Finn but breaking both bottles.

"Quick Finn, step back!" It was Marceline, who had grabbed a bottle from the wall and thrown it.

But something unexpected happened. The evil liquid of the Ice King's bottle and the unknown potion in Finn's bottle had mixed together and immediately turned into a sparkling silver gas. It quickly filled the room and everyone passed out.

***

When they awoke, all at the same time, no one felt normal. What had happened?

"I know what happened." The Ice King was talking from his seat on the floor. "Finn, did you get that green potion from the Lumpy Space Princess's house?" Finn shook his head to say yes. "Then that was her famous switcheroo sauce."

"In the Lumpy Space kingdom, for fun sometimes the kids drink switcheroo sauce and borrow each others' bodies. It's usually temporary, and a lot of fun. But since you mixed it with my potion, it mixed up all of our emotions and tendencies instead. Now, we don't know who's evil, and who's good. It could be any of us." The Ice King shook his head in dismay.

Suddenly, the Lumpy Space Princess appeared at the window. "Oh no! What's happened here!" Someone quickly recounted the events to her. "I see. Well, all I can tell you right now is that what the Ice King said is true!  We can't know who's good and evil anymore!"

"If you want to get rid of the bad guys in here, you're going to have to make them drink this!" The Lumpy Space Princess pulled out a vial full of brown goo. "This will send any evil people to Sleepy Town for the next 24 hours, letting us put them in a dungeon for later. But if a good person drinks it, they'll throw up, because it is gross. They'll feel so sick, they'll need to leave the party."

"But how do we decide who has to drink the gross goo?" the Ice King asked.

"I think the only fair way is to vote. If a majority of you decide on someone, I'll give them the goo. Good luck!" The Lumpy Space Princess floated up and took a seat on a rafter to watch.

[ashersky]

PMs soon, thread locked.

[ashersky]

All PMs out.  Respond to confirm, asked questions.

[ashersky]

"Aw, man...Ice King, why do you have to ruin everything?"  Finn was angry and shaking his fist.  "If we didn't have to sort everybody out, I'd defeat you right now!"

"Come now, Finn...don't you understand?  I just want to be cool, and friends.  I'm sorry Finn..."  The Ice King put his face in his hands...

Day 1 has begun.

[pingpongsam]

I cannot believe you people ruined my birthday party.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.0:

Not Voting (12): Eevee, scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mail-mi, yuma, mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kernel, pingpongsam, raerae, AndrewisFTTW, shraeye, Axxle

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on February 26, 2014.

[Axxle]

I cannot believe you people ruined my birthday party.

BMO claim post one?

Vote: pingpongsam

[Robz888]

Uh, what's the setup.... (checks setup) .... okay, one of these. Well, we do pretty well at these.

That said, I'm going to be kind of lurky until I have more time.

[pingpongsam]

I cannot believe you people ruined my birthday party.

BMO claim post one?

Vote: pingpongsam

Right, flavor names have zero to do with alignment because of the goo or something. So, yeah, I'm BMO and you continue to ruin my party for completely unsound reasons like not having paid any attention to what is going on around here. You know who doesn't need to pay much attention? scumbags.

Vote: Axxle

[Eevee]

vote: shraeye

[Axxle]

I cannot believe you people ruined my birthday party.

BMO claim post one?

Vote: pingpongsam

Right, flavor names have zero to do with alignment because of the goo or something. So, yeah, I'm BMO and you continue to ruin my party for completely unsound reasons like not having paid any attention to what is going on around here. You know who doesn't need to pay much attention? scumbags.

Vote: Axxle

I know that.
I think that:
a) You made the soft claim so that other people feel like you have a town role even though it's just the flavor character.
2) You made the soft claim hoping someone will bring up claiming (which people inevitably do) which takes away a huge portion of the start of the game.
iii) You had the scummiest post so far in the game... out of 1!

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.1:

pingpongsam (1): Axxle
Axxle (1): pingpongsam
shraeye (1): Eevee

Not Voting (9): scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mail-mi, yuma, mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kernel, raerae, AndrewisFTTW, shraeye

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on February 26, 2014.

[Axxle]

vote: shraeye

wrong.

[Eevee]

vote: shraeye

wrong.

vote: raerae?

[yuma]

vote: shraeye

wrong.

vote: raerae?

Ohhhhhhh man....! She is going to be mad at you!

[yuma]

so no IC...? too bad. this is a good setup ICs I think.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: Eevee. Praise be to the Helix! Denounce the false prophet!

[pingpongsam]

a) You made the soft claim so that other people feel like you have a town role even though it's just the flavor character.
2) You made the soft claim hoping someone will bring up claiming (which people inevitably do) which takes away a huge portion of the start of the game.
iii) You had the scummiest post so far in the game... out of 1!

a) I think you're just sore about whatever crappy flavor name you got. Also, as scum, you aren't happy that I do, in fact, have a psychological tool there and you calling it out is an attempt to efface it. Trying to paint the use of a psychological tool as being scummy is disingenuous because Town has every reason to use whatever works for them as well.
2) Yes, I propelled the game forward by skipping the BS and going straight to getting some real responses from people, how scummy of me.
iii) Point taken with the exception that it was also the Towniest post of the game.

[shraeye]

i don't follow.  what psychological tool do you have, pps?

[AndrewisFTTW]

vote: shraeye

wrong.

vote: raerae?

vote: Axxle?

[A Drowned Kernel]

i don't follow.  what psychological tool do you have, pps?

People associate claiming with townie-ness, so a flavor claim right off the bat makes PPS seem townie even though there's no logical reason for it to. For the record: I'm Gunter! This gives you zero actual information but it does make me happy because Gunter is hilarious.

[mail-mi]

Vote: Eevee. Praise be to the Helix! Denounce the false prophet!

ALL HAIL THE HELIX FOSSIL!

vote: yuma

[Axxle]

2) Yes, I propelled the game forward by skipping the BS and going straight to getting some real responses from people, how scummy of me.

Go team us!

iii) Point taken with the exception that it was also the Towniest post of the game.

Quite right, how'd I miss that???

so no IC...? too bad. this is a good setup ICs I think.

Vote: yuma
Yep.

[Axxle]

(go dome fossil)

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.2:

Axxle (2): pingpongsam, AndrewisFTTW
raerae (1): Eevee
Eevee (1): A Drowned Kernel
yuma (2): mail-mi, Axxle

Not Voting (6): scott_pilgrim, Robz888, yuma, mcmcsalot, raerae, shraeye

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on February 26, 2014.

[yuma]

so no IC...? too bad. this is a good setup ICs I think.

Vote: yuma
Yep.

Does your vote on me mean you agree with me or disagree with me?

Now... Let's get this out in the open and I still think it is necessary because of ridiculous stuff from previous games lately...

Alright. Don't claim. At least don't claim just because you think it is the correct. If claiming is the right decision we will come to it as a group and then you can do so at your discretion... but don't just claim willy nilly.

Ok? Cool...

I have looked over the setup a bit and I think the only thing that jumps to my mind is in regard to masons... We had this discussion a bit in DWI and came to the conclusion that masons shouldn't claim day1 right off the bat, but should be more or less obvious enough with reads so that we can figure out who a compatriot is if one dies somehow.

New players I haven't played with:

ADK and AndrewisFTTW can you guess tell me what your time zone is (if you are comfortable doing so) and whether you have had previous mafia experience before (RL or forum). Thanks! Welcome to f.ds mafia. Hope you like it!

[A Drowned Kernel]

My time zone is US central, my work schedule is fairly erratic so I'm on at odd times of the day and night anyway though.

I'm currently playing in Super Mario mafia on this forum, that's my first forum mafia game. I've played IRL before but usually at some level of intoxication so it's not something I ever took super seriously before. RL mafia is more about reading people's poker faces anyways I think.

I'm having a blast so far!

[yuma]

I've played IRL before but usually at some level of intoxication so it's not something I ever took super seriously before.

Back in the day raerae and shraeye used to host drunk mafia on these forums. Maybe now that they are back they will do it again?

I never tried it (I don't drink), but I guess I could try it under the guise of sleep-deprived-daddy-ication. I hear it is a hoot and a holler.

[Axxle]

so no IC...? too bad. this is a good setup ICs I think.

Vote: yuma
Yep.

Does your vote on me mean you agree with me or disagree with me?

I neither agree nor disagree that not having an IC is a good thing. I think that you saying it though is more of a scumtell than anything that's happened so far.

ADK and AndrewisFTTW can you guess tell me

What did you type here before you deleted it?

[shraeye]

you should definitely try it with no sleep.  It's basically equivalent.  It's a place for people to be mildly serious and super silly all at once.

[Axxle]

I've played IRL before but usually at some level of intoxication so it's not something I ever took super seriously before.

Back in the day raerae and shraeye used to host drunk mafia on these forums. Maybe now that they are back they will do it again?

I never tried it (I don't drink), but I guess I could try it under the guise of sleep-deprived-daddy-ication. I hear it is a hoot and a holler.

You might be able to mimic drunkenness with sleep deprivation,

[Robz888]

so no IC...?

My role PM says otherwise.

[yuma]

so no IC...? too bad. this is a good setup ICs I think.

Vote: yuma
Yep.

Does your vote on me mean you agree with me or disagree with me?

I neither agree nor disagree that not having an IC is a good thing. I think that you saying it though is more of a scumtell than anything that's happened so far.

oh, right you are the guy that just says something is a scumtell, but never says why it is a scumtell....

ADK and AndrewisFTTW can you guess tell me

What did you type here before you deleted it?

guess is supposed to say guys...

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm on the east coast, EST. This is my first mafia game.

[raerae]

I 2nd the fuzzy one (even though it isn't really a second anymore), vote: shraeye

And, as always, I'm loudly and morally opposed to claiming but I have to cook right now so I'll skip the loud bit and just be moral.

[shraeye]

I 2nd the fuzzy one (even though it isn't really a second anymore), vote: shraeye

And, as always, I'm loudly and morally opposed to claiming but I have to cook right now so I'll skip the loud bit and just be moral.

I cannot confirm that she is actually cooking now.  She could be dancing a scum-dance in her scum-pants.

[yuma]

f.ds is acting really weird.... I just got two e-mail notifications saying that the posts from Robz and AFTTW said the exact same thing as raerae... (cooking and what not...)

[AndrewisFTTW]

I 2nd the fuzzy one (even though it isn't really a second anymore), vote: shraeye

And, as always, I'm loudly and morally opposed to claiming but I have to cook right now so I'll skip the loud bit and just be moral.

I cannot confirm that she is actually cooking now.  She could be dancing a scum-dance in her scum-pants.

Ew.

[Axxle]

I 2nd the fuzzy one (even though it isn't really a second anymore), vote: shraeye

And, as always, I'm loudly and morally opposed to claiming but I have to cook right now so I'll skip the loud bit and just be moral.

I cannot confirm that she is actually cooking now.  She could be dancing a scum-dance in her scum-pants.

Ew.

[raerae]

Ahhhh, new people, shraeye and I have a twin claim and live together.  He's off teaching a scum class right now while I cook very townie foods.

[Eevee]

Why is no one reacting to my genius pressure votes?

[Axxle]

I'm on the east coast, EST. This is my first mafia game.

hmmm....

[Axxle]

Ahhhh, new people, shraeye and I have a twin claim and live together.  He's off teaching a scum class right now while I cook very townie foods.

"Twinclaim" meaning that they know each other in real life, not that they're twins... hopefully 

[A Drowned Kernel]

Why is no one reacting to my genius pressure votes?

What are you talking about? I voted for you!

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm on the east coast, EST. This is my first mafia game.

hmmm....

What's so bad about the mafia anyway? I feel like they get a bad rap.

[Eevee]

Why is no one reacting to my genius pressure votes?

What are you talking about? I voted for you!

Oh! I guess it's my bad for not getting any clarity from that then.

[A Drowned Kernel]

So my vote for Eevee was originally an RVS joke but now I'm starting to think it's serious. He seems weirdly nervous that nobody's responding to his own RVS jokes. Any thoughts?

[Axxle]

oh, right you are the guy that just says something is a scumtell, but never says why it is a scumtell....

No comment.

guess is supposed to say guys...

Sure.

What's so bad about the mafia anyway? I feel like they get a bad rap.

Aww, thanks.  I wish the rest of the town felt the same way.

(this does read town for me btw)

So my vote for Eevee was originally an RVS joke but now I'm starting to think it's serious. He seems weirdly nervous that nobody's responding to his own RVS jokes. Any thoughts?

I can see that, not really convinced.

Vote: shraeye

His posts have been pretty fluff so far.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.3:

Axxle (2): pingpongsam, AndrewisFTTW
raerae (1): Eevee
Eevee (1): A Drowned Kernel
yuma (1): mail-mi
shraeye (2): raerae, Axxle

Not Voting (5): scott_pilgrim, Robz888, yuma, mcmcsalot, shraeye

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on February 26, 2014.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote: shraeye

His posts have been pretty fluff so far.

He asked PPS to clarify what his "psychological tool" was, that's more discussion than some people have posted.

[Eevee]

So my vote for Eevee was originally an RVS joke but now I'm starting to think it's serious. He seems weirdly nervous that nobody's responding to his own RVS jokes. Any thoughts?

Why would scum be nervous no one is responding to his RVS jokes?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Why would town be? Nervousness before the game's actually started seems scummy.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I think town and scum both have reason to be nervous.

[Eevee]

Hold on! I haven't been nervous, I was trying to get someone to engage in a joking banter with me!

[A Drowned Kernel]

That's what I was doing, and then the banter turned serious all of the sudden, which I perceived as nervousness. Maybe one or the other of us misinterpreted the other's post though.

[yuma]

Hold on! I haven't been nervous, I was trying to get someone to engage in a joking banter with me!

Why are you asking that now instead of a few posts above when ADK first said you were nervous?

[Eevee]

Hold on! I haven't been nervous, I was trying to get someone to engage in a joking banter with me!

Why are you asking that now instead of a few posts above when ADK first said you were nervous?

I only realized that now.

[yuma]

Hold on! I haven't been nervous, I was trying to get someone to engage in a joking banter with me!

Why are you asking that now instead of a few posts above when ADK first said you were nervous?

I only realized that now.

So my vote for Eevee was originally an RVS joke but now I'm starting to think it's serious. He seems weirdly nervous that nobody's responding to his own RVS jokes. Any thoughts?

Why would scum be nervous no one is responding to his RVS jokes?

[Eevee]

Well, I was asking for clarification first, to get a read on TDK / to see if his logic holds up. Then after the couple of posts I realized that whether the logic was sound or not, it shouldn't apply to me since I was never nervous.

[scott_pilgrim]

In Eevee's defense, I didn't read him as being nervous, and I also don't think being nervous is really scummy.  I do find it odd though that he would first question whether nervousness is scummy, then say he wasn't nervous.  Actually if he hadn't later said that he wasn't actually nervous, I would think that was scummy, because that demonstrates an unawareness of how he is perceived, but since he did later say that he was never nervous...I'm just confused.  I think Eevee was confused?  I don't really think it's indicative of anything.

[Eevee]

When TDK posed his (very mild) accusation, my initial reaction was to find out if his logic makes sense, if what he described actually is scummy, to find out if he is actually scumhunting or just pretending.

Then, later I realized "hey, whether that logic is sound or not, it doesn't apply here" and decided to point that out as well.

So, the first post was me scumhunting TDK, the second was me defending myself against his scumhunting towards me, if that makes sense.

[Eevee]

Guys! Let's post something!

[Axxle]

Ur town! Yay!

[Eevee]

Ur town! Yay!

Indeed! What about you?

[Axxle]

Ur town! Yay!

Indeed! What about you?

You already know the answer to that mason buddy! *wink*

[Robz888]

I'm sad I didn't get a rise out of anyone for this:

Uh, what's the setup.... (checks setup) .... okay, one of these. Well, we do pretty well at these.

That said, I'm going to be kind of lurky until I have more time.

[Axxle]

I'm sad I didn't get a rise out of anyone for this:

Uh, what's the setup.... (checks setup) .... okay, one of these. Well, we do pretty well at these.

That said, I'm going to be kind of lurky until I have more time.

eh

[Axxle]

It was if a million shoulders shrugged up, and then were still.

[Axxle]

I'm sad I didn't get a rise out of anyone for this:

Uh, what's the setup.... (checks setup) .... okay, one of these. Well, we do pretty well at these.

That said, I'm going to be kind of lurky until I have more time.

in all seriousness what were you expecting scum to react or town to react?

[Eevee]

I'm sad I didn't get a rise out of anyone for this:

Uh, what's the setup.... (checks setup) .... okay, one of these. Well, we do pretty well at these.

That said, I'm going to be kind of lurky until I have more time.

What were you expecting?

Being kind of lurky is not super noteworthy for you in the beginning of the game (and you had a vla announcement to boot). Announcing that's the case is just considerate, scum robz is not some green newcomer who is worried he'll get lynched for lurking, he wouldn't feel the need to apologize for a legit vla (so whatever your alignment, I read your post as checking in and letting people know you are busy). Town has historically done well in these setups, nothing to despute there either.

So, allinall seems like a very null post to me.

[Robz888]

Oh thats' not what I meant to quote, hold on.

[Robz888]

Here it is:

so no IC...?

My role PM says otherwise.

Why no votes for me?

[Axxle]

Here it is:

so no IC...?

My role PM says otherwise.

Why no votes for me?

Obv joke is obv.

[Axxle]

Same question though

[Eevee]

Town read on robz! Seems like he planned to trap scum somehow with that post, I dont really see how but seems like a towny thing to attempt.

[Robz888]

Town read on robz! Seems like he planned to trap scum somehow with that post, I dont really see how but seems like a towny thing to attempt.

No, I didn't. I wanted to make people mad...

[Axxle]

 

[Eevee]

Town read on robz! Seems like he planned to trap scum somehow with that post, I dont really see how but seems like a towny thing to attempt.

No, I didn't. I wanted to make people mad...

So spiteful these days! Has robz grow old and bitter?

[Robz888]

Sadly, yes.

[Axxle]

It's 5 o'clock in the morning. Conversation got boring...

[shraeye]

Town read on robz! Seems like he planned to trap scum somehow with that post, I dont really see how but seems like a towny thing to attempt.

At this point, laying 'scum traps' like that is par for the course, and people should know it gets town cred. Why you playing like thia os some novel only-town-would-think-of-that move?

 (what's moreimportant with forcing reactions is what axzles getting at...do they actually have an idea of how evil-responses and town responses would differ?  Side note to the aide note:  my phone auto corrected scum to evil...phone posting is tough)

[pingpongsam]

I think we should lynch one of the new guys just to help him grow the thick skin he's gonna need moving forward.

Vote: Andrew

[mcmcsalot]

Caught up no idea who's scum, also for newer players me and robz have a two claim as well, he's my older brother.

[Teproc]

Vote Count 1.4:

shraeye (2): raerae, Axxle
Axxle (1): AndrewisFTTW
raerae (1): Eevee
Eevee (1): A Drowned Kernel
yuma (1): mail-mi
AndrewisFTTW (1): pingpongsam

Not Voting (5): scott_pilgrim, Robz888, yuma, mcmcsalot, shraeye

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on February 26, 2014.

[raerae]

Vote: shraeye

His posts have been pretty fluff so far.

He asked PPS to clarify what his "psychological tool" was, that's more discussion than some people have posted.

Defending your partner already, bucko? Isn't it a bit early for that?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Just trying to keep people honest. Also Unvote Eevee made enough sense.

[yuma]

I think we should lynch one of the new guys just to help him grow the thick skin he's gonna need moving forward.

Vote: Andrew

Somewhat of a townread on PPS based off this post. A desire to kill off newbies has often resulted in the vet pushing the townie instead being lynched. As such I don't think scum would risk sticking their neck out like this (even as a joke..., which I think this probably is?)

[A Drowned Kernel]

I feel like jokes are pretty null in general. Town does it to get the game going, scum does it to seem townie. You learn more from people's reactions than from any of the joking.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I think we should lynch one of the new guys just to help him grow the thick skin he's gonna need moving forward.

Vote: Andrew

Thick skin? Yeah I need an online forum game for that, thanks.

Yes I'm new and I could be wrong but I don't see how a post like Robz's post could be considered either townie or scummy. Both town and scum are capable of posting something like that. I guess you guys know the kind of stuff he does during games but he knows that too and can adjust accordingly. PPS's logic is just as good as anyone else's right now, at least in my mind.

That said, everyone knows Axxle better than me so maybe you can clue me in but I feel like he's trying too hard to seem town.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I think PPS's post was a joke, although watching how people react to jokes is a big part of the early game. Getting super-defensive right away isn't exactly super townie.

What exactly did Axxle post that seems like he's "trying too hard"? Not trying to be aggressive, just asking for something specific.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I think PPS's post was a joke, although watching how people react to jokes is a big part of the early game. Getting super-defensive right away isn't exactly super townie.

What exactly did Axxle post that seems like he's "trying too hard"? Not trying to be aggressive, just asking for something specific.

Yeah it's a joke, but it's not the first time I've heard "thick skin" be mentioned in the same breath as mafia and I think it's silly.

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response. Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

[yuma]

I feel like jokes are pretty null in general. Town does it to get the game going, scum does it to seem townie. You learn more from people's reactions than from any of the joking.

My point wasn't that he made a joke, but rather what his joke was about and the historical context of it. Making a joke doesn't really signify anything, but the context of the joke I think can.

[raerae]

Okay, so looking at the players in the game, I have a few questions for the people I don't know.

1.  Eevee - no questions here, he's fuzzy and adorable
2.  scott_pilgrim - I don't know you, can you please give a brief recap of your previous mafia experience whether it be in person or online
3.  Robz888 - no questions
4.  mail-mi - no questions
5.  yuma - no questions
6.  mcmcsalot - no questions
7.  A Drowned Kernel - I think you were showing up as I was leaving but I don't remember much, can I get a recap from you too, please?
8.  pingpongsam - I don't believe our paths ever crossed but I think you were around here before I was.  No questions just yet.
9.  raerae - nada
10. AndrewisFTTW - You are completely new to me, recap please?
11. shraeye - no questions
12. Axxle - no questions

[scott_pilgrim]

2.  scott_pilgrim - I don't know you, can you please give a brief recap of your previous mafia experience whether it be in person or online

This is my third game here (I'm also in Diffusion of Powers and Super Mario Mafia, both of which are still going).  I've also played IRL a few times.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Recap? Hi, I'm Andrew! This is my first mafia game ever and It probably shows. Anything else you would like to know just ask!

[A Drowned Kernel]

I've been on the forums for ages as a semi-lurker, I just started mafia a few weeks ago though. As I mentioned in a previous post, I've played mafia IRL but usually at parties where people are drunk so never in a very serious context. I'm in one other game right now, Super Mario, and that one is my first forum game. Anything else you'd like to know?

[raerae]

Soon, my new friends, soon I will ask more questions...

In the meantime, vets! Who's meta's changed in the last six months?  Is Yuma still unreadable?  Is robz still full of hate and fun and vinegar?  Is Eevee still everybody's buddy?

Scott (do you have different name f.ds people call you?  calling you by a real name feels weird), why are you defending Eevee in this post?  Do you make a habit of defending other players so early or just your partners?

In Eevee's defense, I didn't read him as being nervous, and I also don't think being nervous is really scummy.  I do find it odd though that he would first question whether nervousness is scummy, then say he wasn't nervous.  Actually if he hadn't later said that he wasn't actually nervous, I would think that was scummy, because that demonstrates an unawareness of how he is perceived, but since he did later say that he was never nervous...I'm just confused.  I think Eevee was confused?  I don't really think it's indicative of anything.

[Axxle]

I think PPS's post was a joke, although watching how people react to jokes is a big part of the early game. Getting super-defensive right away isn't exactly super townie.

What exactly did Axxle post that seems like he's "trying too hard"? Not trying to be aggressive, just asking for something specific.

Yeah it's a joke, but it's not the first time I've heard "thick skin" be mentioned in the same breath as mafia and I think it's silly.

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response.

This is just how I post.

Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

I've heard that scum that get suspected early sometimes get a free pass to the endgame. It's hearsay though and I don't know if scum has ever purposefully done it.

shraeye: vote for someone.

[shraeye]

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response. Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

[scott_pilgrim]

Scott (do you have different name f.ds people call you?  calling you by a real name feels weird), why are you defending Eevee in this post?  Do you make a habit of defending other players so early or just your partners?

In Eevee's defense, I didn't read him as being nervous, and I also don't think being nervous is really scummy.  I do find it odd though that he would first question whether nervousness is scummy, then say he wasn't nervous.  Actually if he hadn't later said that he wasn't actually nervous, I would think that was scummy, because that demonstrates an unawareness of how he is perceived, but since he did later say that he was never nervous...I'm just confused.  I think Eevee was confused?  I don't really think it's indicative of anything.

Well, if they are being accused of being scummy when I don't think they've done anything scummy, I'll point that out.  I'm not saying I'm committed to defending Eevee in general, I'm just saying I find what he did there to be null (in contrast to the people who perceived it as scummy).

Scott is not my IRL name, if that makes you feel better?  (Scott Pilgrim vs. the World is an awesome movie that I chose my username after.)  Or you can call me SP, that's not a "normal" name.

[pingpongsam]

Aw naw, you're scotty forever to me now.

[pingpongsam]

I've heard that scum that get suspected early sometimes get a free pass to the endgame. It's hearsay though and I don't know if scum has ever purposefully done it.

I believe it is a general truth and see D1 of the newly completed "Diffusion of Power" where it was purposely done to great effect.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response. Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

I just thought it would be helpful to learn common strategies and things to look for but I guess there are other places I can learn stuff like that.

[A Drowned Kernel]

We'll give you strategies but you have to pinkie promise that you're not mafia.

[AndrewisFTTW]

We'll give you strategies but you have to pinkie promise that you're not mafia.

Really? The game is that easy? 

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.5:

shraeye (2): raerae, Axxle
Axxle (1): AndrewisFTTW
raerae (1): Eevee
yuma (1): mail-mi
AndrewisFTTW (1): pingpongsam

Not Voting (6): scott_pilgrim, Robz888, yuma, mcmcsalot, shraeye, A Drowned Kernel

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on February 26, 2014.

[Axxle]

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response. Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

[Axxle]

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response. Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

btw, this is rhetorical. Shraeye is just trying to make the new player look scummy for asking for scumhunting advice. Both trying to get people to target him and discouraging asking these kinds of questions.
Confirm vote: shraeye

[mail-mi]

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response. Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

btw, this is rhetorical. Shraeye is just trying to make the new player look scummy for asking for scumhunting advice. Both trying to get people to target him and discouraging asking these kinds of questions.
Confirm vote: shraeye

Hm. That's a good point. vote: shraeye

[yuma]

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response. Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

It is an interesting question though... because it is what I would consider a higher thinking sort of question. Not that a new player couldn't have such a higher question (they obviously can and do!) but it is something that has only recently for f.ds mafia become even a point of discussion... so it does make me wonder if it is possible that andrew is partners with someone who mentioned something along the lines in a QT to introduce him to the concept and is now asking for more.

Andrew what made you want to ask the question?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response. Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

It is an interesting question though... because it is what I would consider a higher thinking sort of question. Not that a new player couldn't have such a higher question (they obviously can and do!) but it is something that has only recently for f.ds mafia become even a point of discussion... so it does make me wonder if it is possible that andrew is partners with someone who mentioned something along the lines in a QT to introduce him to the concept and is now asking for more.

Andrew what made you want to ask the question?

I don't think it's higher thinking, it's just something that I thought was a real possibility in this game. I saw Axxle joking about being scum (if my memory is correct) and I thought maybe he's trying to make people overlook him. Not that I think he is scum necessarily, but I just wanted to see if anyone else thought that was a possibility.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Deliberately casting suspicion on yourself seems like the sort of thing that could really easily backfire, though. Both because you might not be able to shake it off and get lynched right away, and later in the game people are probably going to remember the suspicions they had first most clearly. It seems less likely that people are going to be like "Oh, I suspected so-and-so earlier but then we decided that they were actually townie, so let's not consider them again" than "Oh, remember when so-and-so was scummy back at the beginning of the game? Let's lynch them!"

As a deliberate gambit on scum's part it seems pretty risky, and I think most scum would be more likely to want to play it safe. I guess it depends on the scum, though.

[Eevee]

I really like the way Andrew is thinking, but "trying to see if anyone else thought this could be scummy" is definitely a scumtell.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I really like the way Andrew is thinking, but "trying to see if anyone else thought this could be scummy" is definitely a scumtell.

It is?

[Eevee]

I really like the way Andrew is thinking, but "trying to see if anyone else thought this could be scummy" is definitely a scumtell.

It is?

Yes. Looking for validation, or throwing dirt around and waiting to see what sticks until committing to it is natural for mafia, as they want to lynch anyone but one of their own.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I really like the way Andrew is thinking, but "trying to see if anyone else thought this could be scummy" is definitely a scumtell.

It is?

Yes. Looking for validation, or throwing dirt around and waiting to see what sticks until committing to it is natural for mafia, as they want to lynch anyone but one of their own.

I don't remember "throwing dirt around" or "looking for validation". All I did was notice they way Axxle posted and though I should discuss it with other people. I never said "Axxle is scum. Who agrees?". It seems like you're the one doing that. Just because you say something is a scumtell doesn't make it so.

[Eevee]

Sure, others can weigh in on if what I described would be scummy in their eyes. Either way, I think it is. 

Anyways, what you did was obviously a very mild version of it, as you might have noticed I didn't even vote you for it. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything yet and kept an eye out on if whether you continue to do it before "warning you", but my I didn't think it far enough at the time I guess.

[Axxle]

I really like the way Andrew is thinking, but "trying to see if anyone else thought this could be scummy" is definitely a scumtell.

It is?

Yes. Looking for validation, or throwing dirt around and waiting to see what sticks until committing to it is natural for mafia, as they want to lynch anyone but one of their own.

I don't remember "throwing dirt around" or "looking for validation". All I did was notice they way Axxle posted and though I should discuss it with other people. I never said "Axxle is scum. Who agrees?". It seems like you're the one doing that. Just because you say something is a scumtell doesn't make it so.

Eevee's half right. It *is* scummy to not commit by saying "Axxle is scummy" but rather "Axxle did this questionable thing, do people find it scummy" and then being able to react to peoples answers before committing or not.  You didn't really do that since you've already expressed a good amount of suspicion of me (by voting).

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm suspicious of everyone right now, obviously a little more of you than others but not by much. I'm confused as to what you guys are getting at. You want me to commit, which I did through voting, it if I try to discuss my suspicions that's crummy?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm typing from my phone so please excuse typos and auto correct.

[Axxle]

I'm suspicious of everyone right now, obviously a little more of you than others but not by much. I'm confused as to what you guys are getting at. You want me to commit, which I did through voting, it if I try to discuss my suspicions that's crummy?

I think you're not being scummy. I'm saying that some of the actions you took in a different context might have been scummy. Eevee's not taking context into account which is not great but not necessarily scummy either.

I personally like people committing all the time, it prevents scum from doublebacking on reads easily.

[Eevee]

Yeah, Axxle has it right.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm suspicious of everyone right now, obviously a little more of you than others but not by much. I'm confused as to what you guys are getting at. You want me to commit, which I did through voting, it if I try to discuss my suspicions that's crummy?

I think you're not being scummy. I'm saying that some of the actions you took in a different context might have been scummy. Eevee's not taking context into account which is not great but not necessarily scummy either.

I personally like people committing all the time, it prevents scum from doublebacking on reads easily.

I just re-read you previous post. Thank you and sorry for thr misunderstanding. But I'm still not changing my vote though... yet.

[yuma]

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response. Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

It is an interesting question though... because it is what I would consider a higher thinking sort of question. Not that a new player couldn't have such a higher question (they obviously can and do!) but it is something that has only recently for f.ds mafia become even a point of discussion... so it does make me wonder if it is possible that andrew is partners with someone who mentioned something along the lines in a QT to introduce him to the concept and is now asking for more.

Andrew what made you want to ask the question?

I don't think it's higher thinking, it's just something that I thought was a real possibility in this game. I saw Axxle joking about being scum (if my memory is correct) and I thought maybe he's trying to make people overlook him. Not that I think he is scum necessarily, but I just wanted to see if anyone else thought that was a possibility.

I see...

You are right that this isn't higher thinking in and of itself. But what I am wary of is taking it a step further (which it looks like you didn't do) which is the idea (that has been somewhat validated by recent games) that mafia now want to come under fire in early days (but not enough to get lynched) because players that don't come under suspicion on early days are 1. often mafia and 2. often lynched because of it. Unless you had had someone explain that f.ds meta to you I don't know if you would have been very aware of it as a new player.

As for it being a possibility. Yes, it is a possibility. Axxle is kinda the "old grandpa" of the group for us. He is one that introduced mafia to the forum and has played on other sites whereas most of us have not. So with Axxle anything I think is possible... however, I know from experience that he does this sort of thing as any alignment (partially I think to make him a bit harder to read when he does get a scum role).

[Eevee]

I'd say it's more ashersky-esque, to get the game moving. In my experience he stops when the going gets more serious.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I haven't had any communication with anyone about mafia. I've been following Super Mario a little bit and maybe I picked up the concept there. Sorry this got blown out of proportion.

[Eevee]

Don't be! Way better than no conversation.

[pingpongsam]

I really like the way Andrew is thinking, but "trying to see if anyone else thought this could be scummy" is definitely a scumtell.

This quip caught my eye. On the face of it is a simple banter with the new guy. But to me I felt a twinge of either scum!Eevee working a town!Andrew or scum!Eevee dancing with a scum!Andrew.

This twinged again when I saw:

I really like the way Andrew is thinking, but "trying to see if anyone else thought this could be scummy" is definitely a scumtell.

It is?

Yes. Looking for validation, or throwing dirt around and waiting to see what sticks until committing to it is natural for mafia, as they want to lynch anyone but one of their own.

It twinged again. Mild suspicion casting, casual interchange keeps the post count up, appear to be moving thee gam forward banter, hmmm.

And then:

Sure, others can weigh in on if what I described would be scummy in their eyes. Either way, I think it is. 

Anyways, what you did was obviously a very mild version of it, as you might have noticed I didn't even vote you for it. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything yet and kept an eye out on if whether you continue to do it before "warning you", but my I didn't think it far enough at the time I guess.

Actual confirmation of what the twinge was saying.

And finally:

Don't be! Way better than no conversation.

Direct confirmation that this might well be all about appearances.

Vote: Eevee

[Teproc]

Vote Count 1.5:

shraeye (3): raerae, Axxle, mail-mi
Axxle (1): AndrewisFTTW
raerae (1): Eevee
Eevee(1): pingpongsam

Not Voting (6): scott_pilgrim, Robz888, yuma, mcmcsalot, shraeye, A Drowned Kernel

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on February 26, 2014.

[yuma]

Right now the two points that I like the most so far in the game have been brought up by PPS in regard to eevee and by axxle in regard to shraeye

I think I like the point about shraeye more than the point about eevee (the first point in PPS's post resonated, the rest seemed kinda like stretches) and shraeye has more votes...

so vote: shraeye

[Robz888]

I'm like way, way behind. Posting so I don't get prodded.

I'll be back in full force, hopefully tomorrow.

[Robz888]

Tomorrow as in Sunday, not tomorrow as in Day 2.

[A Drowned Kernel]

So we've got a pretty decent wagon on Shraeye, but it seems to have a pretty flimsy basis to me. Axxle originally voted because Shraeye's posts were supposedly just fluff, which isn't isn't that unusual at the beginning of the game, then confirmed it because Shraeye gave a newbie a little bit of a hard time. Then mail-mi and yuma basically jumped on the wagon without a contribution to the discussion beyond "yeah, what Axxle said!" And raerae's vote is a RVS holdover (I'm assuming that was RVS), so I'm just gonna put my vote on her until she changes hers or justifies it.

Vote: raerae

[yuma]

So we've got a pretty decent wagon on Shraeye, but it seems to have a pretty flimsy basis to me. Axxle originally voted because Shraeye's posts were supposedly just fluff, which isn't isn't that unusual at the beginning of the game, then confirmed it because Shraeye gave a newbie a little bit of a hard time. Then mail-mi and yuma basically jumped on the wagon without a contribution to the discussion beyond "yeah, what Axxle said!" And raerae's vote is a RVS holdover (I'm assuming that was RVS), so I'm just gonna put my vote on her until she changes hers or justifies it.

Vote: raerae

I am intrigued here.... what makes you vote for raerae over say me or mail-mi (or axxle for that matter). Now obviously I am not necessarily suggesting you should vote for me (duh!), but why choose raerae over the rest of us?

Do you think that RVS voting is scummy?

It seems to me that here you wanted to vote for someone on the shraeye wagon and then jumped on the person that was the "easiest" to vote for... i.e. you would get the least amount of backlash from it?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I've got my eye on all of you, but raerae's vote is an RVS and I'd really like to avoid a wagon going through with that kind of vote on it.

[yuma]

I've got my eye on all of you, but raerae's vote is an RVS and I'd really like to avoid a wagon going through with that kind of vote on it.

Well I agree with the sentiment... but I don't think the wagon would go through w/o explaining or revoking the vote. I guess my question--or maybe it is more of a statement--is this:

You seem to find the people voting for shraeye to be scummy. But your vote isn't due to scumminess it appears. Instead it is to get a question answered. Votes are used for a myriad of purposes, but in general they are best used to say that you find someone scummy.

So here is my question... Do you find raerae scummy? If not why aren't you voting for someone you do find scummy? If yes, why is she scummy?

[raerae]

Right now the two points that I like the most so far in the game have been brought up by PPS in regard to eevee and by axxle in regard to shraeye

I think I like the point about shraeye more than the point about eevee (the first point in PPS's post resonated, the rest seemed kinda like stretches) and shraeye has more votes...

so vote: shraeye

I'm sorta drunk...what's the point about shraeye?

[raerae]

So we've got a pretty decent wagon on Shraeye, but it seems to have a pretty flimsy basis to me. Axxle originally voted because Shraeye's posts were supposedly just fluff, which isn't isn't that unusual at the beginning of the game, then confirmed it because Shraeye gave a newbie a little bit of a hard time. Then mail-mi and yuma basically jumped on the wagon without a contribution to the discussion beyond "yeah, what Axxle said!" And raerae's vote is a RVS holdover (I'm assuming that was RVS), so I'm just gonna put my vote on her until she changes hers or justifies it.

Vote: raerae

Wait, wait, wait...you're trying to force me to change an RVS vote to...what?  Do we have an actual case on anybody right now?  Not that I've seen so exactly what is my incentive to change my vote?  Just cuz you say so?  raerae don't play that game, sweetie.

[raerae]

Has mcmc posted yet?  I don't think so.  Hey, mcmc, get yourself in here and say hi, darn it all.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm just nervous about a lynch going through before people have had a chance to think things through. I'm pretty ambivalent about most people right now. Yeah we don't really have a case on anybody but that hasn't stopped the wagon on shraeye from getting to L-3, which is raising my hackles.

[AndrewisFTTW]

So you don't think someone should be lynched who we're not 100% on? Fair enough. But how do you propose we become 100% on someone? And what makes your accusation of Raerae any nobler than Yuma's or Axxle's or mail-mi's?

[Axxle]

I'm just nervous about a lynch going through before people have had a chance to think things through. I'm pretty ambivalent about most people right now. Yeah we don't really have a case on anybody but that hasn't stopped the wagon on shraeye from getting to L-3, which is raising my hackles.

L-3 is ridiculously far from a lynch. If shraeye flips scum I'm taking a good long look at you.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Hi. Anybody still playing this game? Scott? Mcmc? Robz? Shraeye? Bueller?

[yuma]

Hi. Anybody still playing this game? Scott? Mcmc? Robz? Shraeye? Bueller?

Bueller hasn't even posted yet! vote: Bueller

But really, games generally lag quite a bit on the weekend and then pick up Sunday night/Monday morning quite a bit.

[ashersky]

While everyone was sitting around the treehouse arguing about who would have to drink the gross goo first, two people appeared at the smashed front door.

A human-sized blue jay walked in, flanked by a tiny raccoon.  They looked around the room, then at each other, then around the room again, then at each other again, then stated in unison:

"Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?"

The blue jay turned to the raccoon and said, "dude, I think we're in the wrong place."  The raccoon replied, "yeah man, definitely NOT the tool shed."

They turned and walked out, shaking their heads in disbelief.

Vote Count 1.6:

shraeye (4): raerae, Axxle, mail-mi, yuma
Axxle (1): AndrewisFTTW
raerae (2): Eevee, ADK
Eevee(1): pingpongsam

Not Voting (4): scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mcmcsalot, shraeye

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on February 26, 2014.

[shraeye]

I'm just nervous about a lynch going through before people have had a chance to think things through. I'm pretty ambivalent about most people right now. Yeah we don't really have a case on anybody but that hasn't stopped the wagon on shraeye from getting to L-3, which is raising my hackles.

L-3 is whatever, but I understand what you're saying here.  There just feels like there hasn't been much substantial yet.  Imma look back at things and see if anything falls out.

[shraeye]

shraeye: vote for someone.

I don't vote on somebody elses schedule; I'll vote for somebody when I'm ready.

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

I'm trying to learn things about people.  Can't learn things unless I ask.

btw, this is rhetorical. Shraeye is just trying to make the new player look scummy for asking for scumhunting advice. Both trying to get people to target him and discouraging asking these kinds of questions.
Confirm vote: shraeye

Sorry dude, you got it wrong.  I ain't trying to make anybody look scummy.  It turns out I asked a question because I wanted it answered.  Novel thought.

[raerae]

i don't follow.  what psychological tool do you have, pps?

People associate claiming with townie-ness, so a flavor claim right off the bat makes PPS seem townie even though there's no logical reason for it to. For the record: I'm Gunter! This gives you zero actual information but it does make me happy because Gunter is hilarious.

(on a reread, sorry this is old)

What people do this?  F.ds has a long standing history of mafia successfully fake-claiming and pushing for claiming while town is hesitant.  Why do you think claiming is townie?

[shraeye]

i don't follow.  what psychological tool do you have, pps?

pps, did you ever answer this?  your post for reference:

a) You made the soft claim so that other people feel like you have a town role even though it's just the flavor character.

a) I think you're just sore about whatever crappy flavor name you got. Also, as scum, you aren't happy that I do, in fact, have a psychological tool there and you calling it out is an attempt to efface it. Trying to paint the use of a psychological tool as being scummy is disingenuous because Town has every reason to use whatever works for them as well.

In Eevee's defense, I didn't read him as being nervous, and I also don't think being nervous is really scummy.  I do find it odd though that he would first question whether nervousness is scummy, then say he wasn't nervous.  Actually if he hadn't later said that he wasn't actually nervous, I would think that was scummy, because that demonstrates an unawareness of how he is perceived, but since he did later say that he was never nervous...I'm just confused.  I think Eevee was confused?  I don't really think it's indicative of anything.

I read it this way too.

I think we should lynch one of the new guys just to help him grow the thick skin he's gonna need moving forward.

Vote: Andrew

Somewhat of a townread on PPS based off this post. A desire to kill off newbies has often resulted in the vet pushing the townie instead being lynched. As such I don't think scum would risk sticking their neck out like this (even as a joke..., which I think this probably is?)

Yeah, I also agree with this.

Okay, so looking at the players in the game, I have a few questions for the people I don't know.

1.  Eevee - no questions here, he's fuzzy and adorable
2.  scott_pilgrim - I don't know you, can you please give a brief recap of your previous mafia experience whether it be in person or online
3.  Robz888 - no questions
4.  mail-mi - no questions
5.  yuma - no questions
6.  mcmcsalot - no questions
7.  A Drowned Kernel - I think you were showing up as I was leaving but I don't remember much, can I get a recap from you too, please?
8.  pingpongsam - I don't believe our paths ever crossed but I think you were around here before I was.  No questions just yet.
9.  raerae - nada
10. AndrewisFTTW - You are completely new to me, recap please?
11. shraeye - no questions
12. Axxle - no questions

It's a bit further in...you got any other thoughts?

[shraeye]

I just re-read you previous post. Thank you and sorry for thr misunderstanding. But I'm still not changing my vote though... yet.

Do you plan on changing your vote?  Is axxle currently the scummiest looking to you?

[raerae]

It's a bit further in...you got any other thoughts?

They're forming.  Nothing to report in just yet though.

[shraeye]

Day 1 ends on Wednesday.  So let's all get crackin'.

[Axxle]

Day 1 ends on Wednesday.  So let's all get crackin'.

I thought days were 10 days long.

[shraeye]

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on February 26, 2014.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I just re-read you previous post. Thank you and sorry for thr misunderstanding. But I'm still not changing my vote though... yet.

Do you plan on changing your vote?  Is axxle currently the scummiest looking to you?

Not really anymore, as Yuma cleared some stuff up for me concerning Axxle's meta. Nothing's really jumping out at me yet, especially considering what one person calls scummy, another person would consider townie. I guess I could benefit from a re-read from the beginning and see what I come up with then.

[Axxle]

The Deadlines:
1.  Days will last 10 consecutive 24-hour periods.
2.  Nights will last two consecutive 24-hour periods.
3.  Adjustments may be made to ensure days do not start or end on a Friday or Saturday. 

Day 1 has begun.

@mod:

[mail-mi]

While everyone was sitting around the treehouse arguing about who would have to drink the gross goo first, two people appeared at the smashed front door.

A human-sized blue jay walked in, flanked by a tiny raccoon.  They looked around the room, then at each other, then around the room again, then at each other again, then stated in unison:

"Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?"

The blue jay turned to the raccoon and said, "dude, I think we're in the wrong place."  The raccoon replied, "yeah man, definitely NOT the tool shed."

They turned and walked out, shaking their heads in disbelief.

Did you just reference Regluar Show? I don't even...ugh

i don't have much to say, nothing really interesting has happened to change my thoughts, specifically on shraeye, so i'll leave my vote there.

[Axxle]

While everyone was sitting around the treehouse arguing about who would have to drink the gross goo first, two people appeared at the smashed front door.

A human-sized blue jay walked in, flanked by a tiny raccoon.  They looked around the room, then at each other, then around the room again, then at each other again, then stated in unison:

"Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?"

The blue jay turned to the raccoon and said, "dude, I think we're in the wrong place."  The raccoon replied, "yeah man, definitely NOT the tool shed."

They turned and walked out, shaking their heads in disbelief.

Did you just reference Regluar Show? I don't even...ugh

i don't have much to say, nothing really interesting has happened to change my thoughts, specifically on shraeye, so i'll leave my vote there.

A recent Adventure Time episode did have a cranky gumball machine...

[raerae]

While everyone was sitting around the treehouse arguing about who would have to drink the gross goo first, two people appeared at the smashed front door.

A human-sized blue jay walked in, flanked by a tiny raccoon.  They looked around the room, then at each other, then around the room again, then at each other again, then stated in unison:

"Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?"

The blue jay turned to the raccoon and said, "dude, I think we're in the wrong place."  The raccoon replied, "yeah man, definitely NOT the tool shed."

They turned and walked out, shaking their heads in disbelief.

Did you just reference Regluar Show? I don't even...ugh

i don't have much to say, nothing really interesting has happened to change my thoughts, specifically on shraeye, so i'll leave my vote there.

In your own words, my sheepy friend, what are your thoughts?

[pingpongsam]

i don't follow.  what psychological tool do you have, pps?

pps, did you ever answer this?

No, I didn't answer because the next poster did and I thought it was patently obvious. My flavor name is BMO. I revealed this implicitly in the very first post of the game. Axxle insinuated I might be using the BMO claim to garner town cred as if only scum would do such a thing. I responded that it is false thinking that Town only has vote power in a game like this and deploying the psychology of my flavor name for Town cred is an equally townie thing to do. Besides, it would be downright stupid thing for me to do if I wasn't actually BMO because any other player could nail me if that were their name. Scum can't counter claim it because if they did drive me to mislynch the flip would spell death for them tomorrow. So, yeah, my flavor name is actually a psychological tool.

[mail-mi]

While everyone was sitting around the treehouse arguing about who would have to drink the gross goo first, two people appeared at the smashed front door.

A human-sized blue jay walked in, flanked by a tiny raccoon.  They looked around the room, then at each other, then around the room again, then at each other again, then stated in unison:

"Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?"

The blue jay turned to the raccoon and said, "dude, I think we're in the wrong place."  The raccoon replied, "yeah man, definitely NOT the tool shed."

They turned and walked out, shaking their heads in disbelief.

Did you just reference Regluar Show? I don't even...ugh

i don't have much to say, nothing really interesting has happened to change my thoughts, specifically on shraeye, so i'll leave my vote there.

In your own words, my sheepy friend, what are your thoughts?

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response. Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

I just really think that Axxle is right that by painting the newbie scummy(ish) for asking about scumhunting is not very townie. And that's the biggest thing I've seen this game so far.

[shraeye]

only problem is that that wasn't what I was up to.  That's what axxle said I was up to.  Go read it; do you think my question at Andrew any different than my question at PPS?

(and now I've got an investigative question at you too, cool)

[mail-mi]

i don't follow.  what psychological tool do you have, pps?

u talkin about this one?

[shraeye]

yes, how is asking pps what psychological tool he thinks he is using different than asking andrew what he hopes to gain with his question?

[mail-mi]

yes, how is asking pps what psychological tool he thinks he is using different than asking andrew what he hopes to gain with his question?

the second one seemed more directed to make andrew seem scummier than the first.

[raerae]

Hey, Andrew, can we get your side of the story on this?  You think shraeye was trying to paint you in an ugly way?

Also, another real name, I'm tweaking a bit...

[mail-mi]

Hey, Andrew, can we get your side of the story on this?  You think shraeye was trying to paint you in an ugly way?

Also, another real name, I'm tweaking a bit...

jsut call him fttw

[shraeye]

Hey, Andrew, can we get your side of the story on this?  You think shraeye was trying to paint you in an ugly way?

Also, another real name, I'm tweaking a bit...

how about your opinion too?  how is andrew's opinion on my intent the one that you're interested in?

[raerae]

Hey, Andrew, can we get your side of the story on this?  You think shraeye was trying to paint you in an ugly way?

Also, another real name, I'm tweaking a bit...

how about your opinion too?  how is andrew's opinion on my intent the one that you're interested in?

I'll answer both those questions after we hear from Andrew.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Sure. I did feel a little pressured and it seemed like the question was posed in an accusatory manner. However, this is the internet and I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I have no facial expression to go on and certain sentences can seem like they're saying more than they actually are. That is to say things can be quite easily misinterpreted and skewed. Ok now I'm rambling.

Sorry for playing devil's advocate but the main thing I felt when I first read that was "why am I being asked this? I thought I was clear what I was trying to learn." It seemed more like prodding and unnecessary interrogation than a serious curiosity. Of course, that's what this game is about right?

[raerae]

Sure. I did feel a little pressured and it seemed like the question was posed in an accusatory manner. However, this is the internet and I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I have no facial expression to go on and certain sentences can seem like they're saying more than they actually are. That is to say things can be quite easily misinterpreted and skewed. Ok now I'm rambling.

Sorry for playing devil's advocate but the main thing I felt when I first read that was "why am I being asked this? I thought I was clear what I was trying to learn." It seemed more like prodding and unnecessary interrogation than a serious curiosity. Of course, that's what this game is about right?

So, is shraeye scum or not?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Sure. I did feel a little pressured and it seemed like the question was posed in an accusatory manner. However, this is the internet and I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I have no facial expression to go on and certain sentences can seem like they're saying more than they actually are. That is to say things can be quite easily misinterpreted and skewed. Ok now I'm rambling.

Sorry for playing devil's advocate but the main thing I felt when I first read that was "why am I being asked this? I thought I was clear what I was trying to learn." It seemed more like prodding and unnecessary interrogation than a serious curiosity. Of course, that's what this game is about right?

So, is shraeye scum or not?

Am I supposed to know the answer to that? Sure.

vote: shraeye

[raerae]

Hey, Andrew, can we get your side of the story on this?  You think shraeye was trying to paint you in an ugly way?

Also, another real name, I'm tweaking a bit...

how about your opinion too?  how is andrew's opinion on my intent the one that you're interested in?

Vote: Andrew

So here's the deal, I wanted that question answered before I finalized this because on the reread I noticed that he sounded both knowledgeable and like a super-newbie.  Ya know, "I don't know what's going on?  Is this a thing?  What about this other complicated thing that isn't normal for a newbie to know about?"  It feels like he was fed info prior to the game but then also told to play up his newbie status.  I wanted to hear what he'd have to say re: shraeye first to see if he'd actually have an opinion when pressed or if he'd just talk around an answer.  Personally, I think the thing on shraeye is nonsense and I'm shocked it gained as much traction as it did.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I have no experience with this game. I have, however, actually sat down and spent time thinking about the mechanics of the game and the possible strategies people could use. I have plenty more newbie questions but I saw what that got me the first time so I haven't asked anything else. Apparently asking questions is a scumtell but hey, whatever. I'm not surprised you're voting for me, I just thought you would've had a little more to go on than that.

[Eevee]

i don't follow.  what psychological tool do you have, pps?

People associate claiming with townie-ness, so a flavor claim right off the bat makes PPS seem townie even though there's no logical reason for it to. For the record: I'm Gunter! This gives you zero actual information but it does make me happy because Gunter is hilarious.

(on a reread, sorry this is old)

What people do this?  F.ds has a long standing history of mafia successfully fake-claiming and pushing for claiming while town is hesitant.  Why do you think claiming is townie?

I do.

[Robz888]

I inherently disbelieve all claims, and claims usually make me more likely to want to lynch a person. Part of this is that I know I will always fake claim as mafia, at least.

[Axxle]

I have no experience with this game. I have, however, actually sat down and spent time thinking about the mechanics of the game and the possible strategies people could use. I have plenty more newbie questions but I saw what that got me the first time so I haven't asked anything else. Apparently asking questions is a scumtell but hey, whatever. I'm not surprised you're voting for me, I just thought you would've had a little more to go on than that.

Ask more questions.

[yuma]

Hey, Andrew, can we get your side of the story on this?  You think shraeye was trying to paint you in an ugly way?

Also, another real name, I'm tweaking a bit...

how about your opinion too?  how is andrew's opinion on my intent the one that you're interested in?

Vote: Andrew

So here's the deal, I wanted that question answered before I finalized this because on the reread I noticed that he sounded both knowledgeable and like a super-newbie.  Ya know, "I don't know what's going on?  Is this a thing?  What about this other complicated thing that isn't normal for a newbie to know about?"  It feels like he was fed info prior to the game but then also told to play up his newbie status.  I wanted to hear what he'd have to say re: shraeye first to see if he'd actually have an opinion when pressed or if he'd just talk around an answer.  Personally, I think the thing on shraeye is nonsense and I'm shocked it gained as much traction as it did.

vote: raerae

Her interaction with Andrew looks like she was setting him up for failure (and for a vote)... something I think I could only see scum doing--well maybe poor town play--either way, I don't like it.

[yuma]

I have no experience with this game. I have, however, actually sat down and spent time thinking about the mechanics of the game and the possible strategies people could use. I have plenty more newbie questions but I saw what that got me the first time so I haven't asked anything else. Apparently asking questions is a scumtell but hey, whatever. I'm not surprised you're voting for me, I just thought you would've had a little more to go on than that.

Ask more questions.

Agreed! It can be a scumtell... but that doesn't mean you shouldn't ask them. A lot depends on what you end up doing with those answers...

[scott_pilgrim]

I have no experience with this game. I have, however, actually sat down and spent time thinking about the mechanics of the game and the possible strategies people could use. I have plenty more newbie questions but I saw what that got me the first time so I haven't asked anything else. Apparently asking questions is a scumtell but hey, whatever. I'm not surprised you're voting for me, I just thought you would've had a little more to go on than that.

Ask more questions.

To expand on this, basically everyone benefits from you asking more questions.  You benefit by learning more about the game, producing content for people to discuss, etc.  Other people benefit by being able to see what kinds of questions you raise.  If you're town, it will probably show by the kinds of questions you ask.  If you're scum, well maybe that would also show by the kinds of questions you ask, but that means if you state (as you just did) that you have questions but are now scared to ask them, people will be more likely to think you're scum, so it's still probably best just to ask and learn.  I would dismiss raerae's vote, unless she actually gets a wagon going on you you should just do what you feel is best for you and best for the game.

[ashersky]

The Deadlines:
1.  Days will last 10 consecutive 24-hour periods.
2.  Nights will last two consecutive 24-hour periods.
3.  Adjustments may be made to ensure days do not start or end on a Friday or Saturday. 

Day 1 has begun.

@mod:

Yeah, I know.  Given recent lulls in activity, I decided on a shorter day (at least day 1).  If there are objections to a 7-day day instead of a 10-day day, PM me.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.7:

shraeye (3): Axxle, mail-mi, AndrewisFTTW
raerae (3): Eevee, ADK, yuma
Eevee(1): pingpongsam
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae

Not Voting (4): scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mcmcsalot, shraeye

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on February 26, 2014.

[yuma]

post count - includes pre-game

1.  Eevee - 24
2.  scott_pilgrim - 5
3.  Robz888 - 13
4.  mail-mi - 9
5.  yuma - 24
6.  mcmcsalot - 3
7.  A Drowned Kernel - 18
8.  pingpongsam - 10
9.  raerae - 20
10. AndrewisFTTW - 29
11. shraeye - 16
12. Axxle - 31

So for people who haven't seen one before, I do post counts to get an idea of where people are at in their posting. Often lurking (or not posting much) is more indicative of scum than town. But I do not believe that just a low post count is enough to lynch someone for, but is instead sometimes part of their narrative.

Things that jump out to me from this are:
1. mcmc has one post that is real in which he says that he is "caught up no idea who is scum." That was four days ago. prod: mcmc
2. I fear we as a group may be somewhat falling for the "people who post more are appearing scummy because they have more posts fallacy" as every player with a vote on them (raerae, shraeye, Eevee and Andrew) are on the upper echelon of posting, shraeye less than the others, but still is on the upper end.

[pingpongsam]

Post counts are extremely easy to manipulate upwards and are impossible to qualitatively assess except to scrutinize the relatively lower posters.

I'm not knocking the use of the post counts, I think they do have value but that value is highly subjective.

I do think it is easier to paint the higher posting members as scum because there is more to work with. That said, good scum play involves controlling the game which requires higher post counts. In my experience, a good scum team has a generalized mix of post frequency, that is, one guy is out front clearly posting the most while another guy rides the middle of the road and the other guy more or less lurks.

What this can mean that is if we have 5 people over 20 posts then maybe one of those guys is scum and we have 4 people with between 10-19 posts maybe one of those guys is scum and then we have 3 people with less than 10 posts maybe one of those guys is scum. So, unless we really scrutinize the bottom 3 guys I'm not seeing how the post count analysis narrows the field too much. And then those 3 guys can easily post up into the middle of the road to obfuscate where they stand.

That said, if a post count analysis prompts more posting then it is a useful tool for the entire game.

...and thus ends the analysis of the post count analysis.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: raerae

What answer could he have given that you would not have replied the same way?
From my perspective you asked him a question and afterwards voted him for a reason unrelated to his answer.

[AndrewisFTTW]

vote: raerae

What answer could he have given that you would not have replied the same way?
From my perspective you asked him a question and afterwards voted him for a reason unrelated to his answer.

Exactly how I feel about it. It can't be a serious vote. I dont get why someone would post out of spite in this game as it really doesn't help anything.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: raerae

What answer could he have given that you would not have replied the same way?
From my perspective you asked him a question and afterwards voted him for a reason unrelated to his answer.

Exactly how I feel about it. It can't be a serious vote. I dont get why someone would post out of spite in this game as it really doesn't help anything.

I want to add raerae is a doesn't one, I can see town raerae thinking Andrew is scum and doing this exact same thing. Remember pirates where she swapped in and went at it with another townie(I was scum and loved being able to pick either side) soo with that unvote off to reread Yuma and see of I get that sense from him

[mcmcsalot]

More remembrance, Yuma and me have discussed the idea of townie "pushing" lynches similarly to the way scum does and Yuma was of the opinion that town shouldn't and would rarely use tactics to make the person they think is scum look scummy so that is consistent with his thoughts in town!raerae not having a reason to do what she did.(correct me if I am misremembering)

[mcmcsalot]

He also mentions the poor town play possibility definitely no scum read there. This makes me want to go back to outing raerae though I think she is not the best day 1 lynch based on contributions.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ok here's a dumb question. I saw this way back and was confused.

Now... Let's get this out in the open and I still think it is necessary because of ridiculous stuff from previous games lately...

Alright. Don't claim. At least don't claim just because you think it is the correct. If claiming is the right decision we will come to it as a group and then you can do so at your discretion... but don't just claim willy nilly.

Ok? Cool...

I have looked over the setup a bit and I think the only thing that jumps to my mind is in regard to masons... We had this discussion a bit in DWI and came to the conclusion that masons shouldn't claim day1 right off the bat, but should be more or less obvious enough with reads so that we can figure out who a compatriot is if one dies somehow.

Is claiming different from voting? And if so why is it a big deal to claim but not to vote?

[scott_pilgrim]

Claiming is when you announce what role you are (VT, cop, doc, etc.).  Obviously if you are scum you won't claim scum, you'll claim something else.

Claiming is a big deal because it is permanent (if you take it back later you'll get lynched because only scum lies), and quite often benefits scum more than town (they gain information on who has good PR's).  So yuma is saying, don't claim just because you think it is best, because you may end up screwing over town; wait for other people to agree that you should claim.  I'm not sure I agree with that, because the person claiming can make a much more informed decision about whether it is good for himself to claim (since he knows his role) than everyone else.

Another point is that yes, even claiming VT can be a big deal.  Imagine if all and only those players who were VT's claimed, then scum would know exactly where to look for PR's (power roles).  Each person who claims VT is one less person for scum to consider night killing.

[mcmcsalot]

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response. Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

btw, this is rhetorical. Shraeye is just trying to make the new player look scummy for asking for scumhunting advice. Both trying to get people to target him and discouraging asking these kinds of questions.
Confirm vote: shraeye

Hm. That's a good point. vote: shraeye

Okay, lots if stuff going on here.
First off the question Andrew asks: I don't fin asking this scummy, we have had discussions about this lately which makes it more likely to come up(maybe he read about it)
Shraeye's question: I think it's fine for shraeye to ask this if Andrew did ask that question because he was coached now he has to lie. I have no clue why people found him scummy for this.
Axxle votes: the fact that axxle votes before Andrew answers cuts out anything potentially helpful. I find axxle very scummy for this.

@andrew, claiming means claiming your role, vanilla townie or power role.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Ok thanks.

[Eevee]

Essentially, the thing about claiming is, scum will be able to utilize the information perfectly as they'll know if you are lying, whereas town still can't believe you without qualms because scum has all the incentive in the world to fakeclaim in order to frame townies or avoid getting lynched.

[Axxle]

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response. Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

btw, this is rhetorical. Shraeye is just trying to make the new player look scummy for asking for scumhunting advice. Both trying to get people to target him and discouraging asking these kinds of questions.
Confirm vote: shraeye

Hm. That's a good point. vote: shraeye

Okay, lots if stuff going on here.
First off the question Andrew asks: I don't fin asking this scummy, we have had discussions about this lately which makes it more likely to come up(maybe he read about it)
Shraeye's question: I think it's fine for shraeye to ask this if Andrew did ask that question because he was coached now he has to lie. I have no clue why people found him scummy for this.
Axxle votes: the fact that axxle votes before Andrew answers cuts out anything potentially helpful. I find axxle very scummy for this.

@andrew, claiming means claiming your role, vanilla townie or power role.

Is this word for word what you meant to say? No typos?

[yuma]

More remembrance, Yuma and me have discussed the idea of townie "pushing" lynches similarly to the way scum does and Yuma was of the opinion that town shouldn't and would rarely use tactics to make the person they think is scum look scummy so that is consistent with his thoughts in town!raerae not having a reason to do what she did.(correct me if I am misremembering)

Well our conversation did occur when I was scum in Mean Girls if I remember correctly, but I have backed off that position a little bit because after we talked about it, I noticed that I was doing it myself. But I think this is a different situation. I think our conversation was that town wouldn't (shouldn't) exaggerate their cases on players and oversell it. But town does do that (I know I have done that) because they aren't just trying to get that player lynched (because they think they are scum) they are trying to convince everyone else that they are right...

But this situation isn't really that. raerae isn't overpushing this or trying to oversell it. Instead it looks like she set up a situation where she could somewhat predict what Andrew was going to do and went into with the mindset of "if he does this, I am going to vote for him." I do find this idea of setting someone up for failure to be at best poor town play and and worst potentially scummy play.

Does that answer your question?

[yuma]

I'm not sure I agree with that, because the person claiming can make a much more informed decision about whether it is good for himself to claim (since he knows his role) than everyone else.

All I am going to say is that people should think long and hard about whether or not they should claim (and veer on the side of caution), especially right out of the gates on day1, or really any other time beside (but sometimes including when at L-1 or when holding a result of some sort) because we have had too far many experiences in the past when someone thought that claiming would be the best move for them and town when in the end it was just best for themselves or no one because they had overlooked a crucial aspect of the setup or game play (something that the town as a whole I think often has a better grasp of than the average player by themselves).

[yuma]

Yeah, I know.  Given recent lulls in activity, I decided on a shorter day (at least day 1).  If there are objections to a 7-day day instead of a 10-day day, PM me.

Regardless can we get an executive decision posted sometime today so we can plan and play accordingly?

[scott_pilgrim]

Yes, I definitely agree that people should be careful and make sure to consider how their claim will benefit town as a whole and not just themselves.  I still feel like it would be very difficult for town to make a decision on whether someone else should claim though, since they don't know the player's role.  Unless you're suggesting they should say something like:

If you're X, claim.
If you're Y, don't claim.
If you're Z, claim.
...

That could potentially work in theory, but if you want to go through every single case "If you're a cop and you targeted X N1, claim; if you're a cop and you targeted Y N1, don't claim; etc." that's just a lot of trouble to go to.  The person who is potentially claiming will know their situation better than anyone else and will have put a lot more thought into it.

Anyway, that has no relevance to the game right now, since I don't think anyone has any immediate plans to claim anyway.

I feel like the way that raerae set up FTTW was intentional, and in the absence of anything scummier than that thus far, vote: raerae.  I think that puts her at L-2.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I've tried to think about how raerae voting for me for no good reason would benefit town but I can't see how it would. So vote: raerae and that's L-1.

[Axxle]

Intent to hammer

[Eevee]

the speed of the wagon worries me more than the way raerae set andrew up comforts me.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Intent to hammer

Do you mean that as an answer to my comment? If so, how would a hammer on me benefit town?

[pingpongsam]

Well, looks like raerae is Town...

[ashersky]

Yeah, I know.  Given recent lulls in activity, I decided on a shorter day (at least day 1).  If there are objections to a 7-day day instead of a 10-day day, PM me.

Regardless can we get an executive decision posted sometime today so we can plan and play accordingly?

I've received no complaints or opinions.  I believe 7 days is optimal.  That said, I advertised 10 days pre-game; an unannounced change in deadlines is akin to a rules change.  Deadline will be 10 days, adjusted to never fall on a weekend.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.8:

shraeye (2): Axxle, mail-mi
raerae (5): Eevee, ADK, yuma, scott_pilgrim, AndrewisFTTW
Eevee(1): pingpongsam
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae

Not Voting (3): Robz888, shraeye, mcmcsalot

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Oh right. L-2.

[pingpongsam]

Never trust the mod. mcmc is voting raerae and it is L-1.

[pingpongsam]

Never trust the mod. mcmc is voting raerae and it is L-1.

Nevermind, I didn't see the unvote. The last vote count appears to be correct.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Never trust the mod. mcmc is voting raerae and it is L-1.

Nevermind, I didn't see the unvote. The last vote count appears to be correct.

Yeah I did thr same thing. All hail the mod.

[Axxle]

Intent to hammer

Do you mean that as an answer to my comment? If so, how would a hammer on me benefit town?

Hammering is being the final vote to lynch someone (in this case it'd be raerae).

[AndrewisFTTW]

Intent to hammer

Do you mean that as an answer to my comment? If so, how would a hammer on me benefit town?

Hammering is being the final vote to lynch someone (in this case it'd be raerae).

Oh so hammer and quickhammer are two different things?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Nevermind. I thought quickhammer meant something else.

[raerae]

ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING ME?

YOU PEOPLE PUT ME AT L-1 WITHOUT GIVING ME A CHANCE TO EXPLAIN MY POSITION?

F that noise.  shraeye gets up to what? L-3, L-4, and everybody pees their pants over a wagon building too quickly.  This is insane. 

So, here's a question, is anybody even going to listen to me or should I just hammer myself now?  There was no sarcasm there.  I'm not going to waste my time if you're not going to listen.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Unvote

That escalated really damn quick. I have more to say but I wanted to get the unvote out right away.

[Axxle]

Vote: raerae

[yuma]

Well this is fun. At the very least we have some good ole' fashioned reactions to what just went down to analyze...

We have scott and Andrew putting her at what they thought was L-2 and L-1 and Axxle saying that he would hammer...

PPS and Eevee quickly chiming in to speak against the wagon...

And of course raerae's reaction itself to the wagon on her...

The two voters I don't really have much issue with... I mean it wasn't like raerae was derphammered or quickhammered. Neither really offered much substance to their votes, but honestly there isn't really a super amount for my vote either (being day1 and all). If anything Andrew's vote is a bit scummier because it came directly on the heels of scott's and didn't say anything new... But neither really speak to raerae's alignment.

Axxle... did you really intend to hammer? (and if so at what point? after raerae had chimed in? after others had spoken their mind?) I guess I was a bi surprised by that intent given your silence on the subject up to that point... Yeah... this is kinda weird Axxle, what gives?

And raerae responded just like I think raerae would respond as either alignment, although perhaps not as necessary as people were incorrect about the vote count.... I want to hear her full response before doing anything else though.

[yuma]

Vote: raerae

really, really weird... So I take it you think raerae is mafia? Why? Original thoughts? Sheeping? Nobody can know cause you ain't gonna say?

[Axxle]

Unvote

Thanks for ruining my fun ADK.

PEdit: I did not intend to hammer at any point.

[mcmcsalot]

ARE YOU F-ING KIDDING ME?

YOU PEOPLE PUT ME AT L-1 WITHOUT GIVING ME A CHANCE TO EXPLAIN MY POSITION?

F that noise.  shraeye gets up to what? L-3, L-4, and everybody pees their pants over a wagon building too quickly.  This is insane. 

So, here's a question, is anybody even going to listen to me or should I just hammer myself now?  There was no sarcasm there.  I'm not going to waste my time if you're not going to listen.

Actually your at L-2 because I unvoted you because town!raerae has been known to latch on to players you think are scum and push hard.

please answer this

vote: raerae

What answer could he have given that you would not have replied the same way?
From my perspective you asked him a question and afterwards voted him for a reason unrelated to his answer.

Exactly how I feel about it. It can't be a serious vote. I dont get why someone would post out of spite in this game as it really doesn't help anything.

I am willing to listen especially with hammer hungry axxle over here.

@scott I guess L-1 is enough to back off but I would refrain from unvoting just because a wagon gets high. stick to your guns and make scum make a scummy hammer if they want to quicklynch. Raerae is now sitting at L-2 still since the scott unvote and axxle vote.

[yuma]

? then what did you intend... I don't get it....

[mcmcsalot]

I meant adk not scott sorry

[mcmcsalot]

? then what did you intend... I don't get it....

woah the axxle unvote is sooo scummy, an L-1 vote and then and unvote when raerae hits L-2??? shes at L-3 now what are you people doing

[Axxle]

? then what did you intend... I don't get it....

I wanted to gauge the reactions of people on the wagon, I didn't get anything out of it since it turns out raerae wasn't actually at L-1.

[Axxle]

? then what did you intend... I don't get it....

woah the axxle unvote is sooo scummy, an L-1 vote and then and unvote when raerae hits L-2??? shes at L-3 now what are you people doing

I wanted to see how raerae reacted to what she thought was a hammer, resignment would have been a huge scumtell. The ADK unvote ruined that though.

[mcmcsalot]

? then what did you intend... I don't get it....

I wanted to gauge the reactions of people on the wagon, I didn't get anything out of it since it turns out raerae wasn't actually at L-1.

You wanted to gauge the reaction of taking her from L-2 to L-1 and when you instead took her from L-3 to L-2 you decided it was unhelpful and unvoted...

ppe1 ohhhhhhhh, you though raerae might think it was the hammer and give away alignment. okay, thats not crazy dumb

[A Drowned Kernel]

The thing is I never thought raerae was acting particularly scummy I was just concerned about the shraeye wagon (which seems good and forgotten for now, but we'll see) and wanted to know what her thoughts were. I'm reading more or less town from her and I'm not about to take chances with a stupid mislynch.

RE Axxle: the fake hammer move seems risky as all hell but that seems more like a gutsy town play than a scum move, he's going to draw a lot of attention to himself for it and I think that's the opposite of what scum wants. I'm that not sorry I ruined it though, and of course I had no idea that's what you were doing. I was catching up, saw people (including her) saying she was at L-1, saw your "intent to hammer", and posted.

Also, to answer raerae's question from way way back: I said that people associate claiming with town because that's the whole point of it, yes scum can fakeclaim but it's risky for them and if claiming didn't give you at least some town cred it wouldn't be a thing.

[raerae]

vote: raerae

What answer could he have given that you would not have replied the same way?
From my perspective you asked him a question and afterwards voted him for a reason unrelated to his answer.

No, I asked him that question to see if he would actually take a stance on something as he'd been pretty wishy-washy for the rest of the game.  I felt my question was pointed and didn't leave room for him to waffle, meaning he would have to give an opinion, a solid thought.  He didn't have one so it's my belief he's waiting for somebody else's reaction before he lays down his own.  It was something I got a hint at on the reread but I wanted to test my hypothesis before trying to throw a nail in that coffin.  It isn't much but it's all I got.  I think he was coached to play up his newbie status and not take strong stances.  He messed that up when he mentioned scum drawing suspicion on themselves early and tried to backpedal out of that.  It very nearly worked when Yuma gave him that "newbie know stuff too!" pass but I'm not buying it.  He was coached, he slipped up, and I'm leaving my vote where it is.

[raerae]

vote: raerae

What answer could he have given that you would not have replied the same way?
From my perspective you asked him a question and afterwards voted him for a reason unrelated to his answer.

Exactly how I feel about it. It can't be a serious vote. I dont get why someone would post out of spite in this game as it really doesn't help anything.

Please don't ever think that.  There was no spite in that vote.  I'm trying to scumhunt with what little information we have D1.  Please don't take this personal as I promise you, it is not.

[raerae]

Well, looks like raerae is Town...

What makes you think this?  Also, wasn't your vote on me at this point or am I, as always, losing track of the vote?

[raerae]

Well, looks like raerae is Town...

What makes you think this?  Also, wasn't your vote on me at this point or am I, as always, losing track of the vote?

Saw the vote count two posts later, ignore the second half but please, answer the first.

[Teproc]

Vote Count 1.7:

raerae (4): Eevee, yuma, scott_pilgrim, AndrewisFTTW
shraeye (1): mail-mi
Eevee(1): pingpongsam
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae

Not Voting (5): Robz888, shraeye, mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kerel, Axxle

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on February 26, 2014.

[Teproc]

Fixing the above, which had the wrong deadline and wrong numbering.

Vote Count 1.9:

raerae (4): Eevee, yuma, scott_pilgrim, AndrewisFTTW
shraeye (1): mail-mi
Eevee(1): pingpongsam
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae

Not Voting (5): Robz888, shraeye, mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kerel, Axxle

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Hey, I'm not stupid. I know looking like a newbie will make people think I'm faking it and thus am scum. It's one of the first thoughts I had before the game started. It's funny that it takes a little more thought to come to the conclusion that I am, in reality, fumbling my way through this game, struggling to explain why I asked a question I legitimately didn't know the answer to.

Anyway, I voted for you because asking me a loaded question as opposed to asking me to elaborate on my thoughts seems scummy to me. Scum, it seems to me, would be less likely to be interested in discussion and giving people chances than setting a trap and stepping away while everyone else fights over it.

[Robz888]

I just re-read really quickly. Now I have to re-re-read to make sense of the wagon that just rose and fell.

[Axxle]

I just read really quickly. Now I have to re-read to make sense of the wagon that just rose and fell.

Probably fixed that for you.

[mail-mi]

Okay, so I think from all this that the wagon, IMO, is a scum wagon run up by scum. Scum who wanted to get their partner,  raerae, up on an early wagon so she wouldn't be suspected later in the game. This is because of how quickly it rose/fell. So, based on this, vote: raerae.

[Axxle]

I was just concerned about the shraeye wagon (which seems good and forgotten for now, but we'll see)

...

Vote: Shraeye

[yuma]

the speed of the wagon worries me more than the way raerae set andrew up comforts me.

Huh... I hadn't noticed that Eevee was voting (and still is) for raerae when he posted this.

[Robz888]

Okay, so processing all that, I guess Axxle's vote is actually pretty townie. I like what he tried to do.

[yuma]

Okay, so processing all that, I guess Axxle's vote is actually pretty townie. I like what he tried to do.

great... but about the real matter at hand... how do you feel about raerae?

[Robz888]

Well, so I liked your initial reason for voting her a lot, but that was kind of a quick wagon.

Although I was glad to have a quick, obviously doomed wagon against me on Day 1 when I was scum in that last game.

I'm probably more keen on looking at the raerae unvoters. ADK?

[yuma]

really what I am not liking from raerae--and it seems from multiple players in this game--is the setting up of "traps" for people to fall into (sorry Robz I just don't think that is a good way to scumhunt and I think when used as town fails and can be a tool used by mafia to manipulate and justify votes and lynches. I have tried it before and it has never worked the way I wanted it to...)

raerae did it with Andrew...

Axxle tried to do it with raerae...

Robz did something similar with his "IC joke"

What happened to town just playing it straight and trying to find mafia without a bunch of gimmicks?

[yuma]

Well, so I liked your initial reason for voting her a lot, but that was kind of a quick wagon.

Although I was glad to have a quick, obviously doomed wagon against me on Day 1 when I was scum in that last game.

I'm probably more keen on looking at the raerae unvoters. ADK?

and mcmc... his vote/unvote was interesting as it appeared to be more of an internal dialogue with himself as there weren't any votes cast for raerae in between or really even much of a conversation about it.

[Robz888]

My "IC joke" was not a trap. I never claimed it was a trap. When someone else said it was a trap, I said no, it wasn't.

[Robz888]

Vote: A Drowned Kernel

[yuma]

My "IC joke" was not a trap. I never claimed it was a trap. When someone else said it was a trap, I said no, it wasn't.

Sorry then, my mistake.

[raerae]

OK, I'm done with this nonsense.  It was never a "trap", it was never a "set-up", it was a damn question to gauge reaction and response.  I responded to mcmc when he asked what wouldn't have made me vote and I thought that was clear.  Do you have questions on that response, yuma?  Or anybody else who thinks I'm just prowling these woods, setting traps, and poaching whatever comes in?

[yuma]

OK, I'm done with this nonsense.  It was never a "trap", it was never a "set-up", it was a damn question to gauge reaction and response.  I responded to mcmc when he asked what wouldn't have made me vote and I thought that was clear.  Do you have questions on that response, yuma?  Or anybody else who thinks I'm just prowling these woods, setting traps, and poaching whatever comes in?

I'll respond in a bit.... My wife and I are going to watch some buffy since the baby is finally asleep.

[raerae]

Okay, so I think from all this that the wagon, IMO, is a scum wagon run up by scum. Scum who wanted to get their partner,  raerae, up on an early wagon so she wouldn't be suspected later in the game. This is because of how quickly it rose/fell. So, based on this, vote: raerae.

So who are my partners, mail-mi?  Because everybody in the damn town was on that wagon with the exception of the two people who didn't happen to log in in that twelve hour time-span.  (And for those of you who need a raerae-translation, there was approximation and exaggeration utilized in that sentence.)  And what actually makes you think I'm scum, let's hear it.

[raerae]

I was just concerned about the shraeye wagon (which seems good and forgotten for now, but we'll see)

...

Vote: Shraeye

Why?  You agree with this?  I don't understand what the quote has to do with your vote.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.10:

raerae (5): Eevee, yuma, scott_pilgrim, AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi
shraeye (1): Axxle
Eevee(1): pingpongsam
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae
A Drowned Kernel (1): Robz888

Not Voting (3): shraeye, mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kernel

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

[Axxle]

I was just concerned about the shraeye wagon (which seems good and forgotten for now, but we'll see)

...

Vote: Shraeye

Why?  You agree with this?  I don't understand what the quote has to do with your vote.

I forgot to revote.

I'm not feeling shraeye too much anymore over Eevee for the quote yuma provided, and yuma himself for not committing to it. I'll say I'll reread both but I'll probably end up not.

[raerae]

I was just concerned about the shraeye wagon (which seems good and forgotten for now, but we'll see)

...

Vote: Shraeye

Why?  You agree with this?  I don't understand what the quote has to do with your vote.

I forgot to revote.

I'm not feeling shraeye too much anymore over Eevee for the quote yuma provided, and yuma himself for not committing to it. I'll say I'll reread both but I'll probably end up not.

Well...I guess I appreciate the honesty.  Still can't say I understand the shraeye thing though.

Eevee, what's deal?  Still think I'm scum just don't like the speed of the wagon?  Or just haven't found a better place to plant your vote? 

[Robz888]

I have to say that I do find Andrew a little scummy... but not nearly scummy enough to overcome my bias against lynching newbies on Day 1.

[mail-mi]

Okay, so I think from all this that the wagon, IMO, is a scum wagon run up by scum. Scum who wanted to get their partner,  raerae, up on an early wagon so she wouldn't be suspected later in the game. This is because of how quickly it rose/fell. So, based on this, vote: raerae.

So who are my partners, mail-mi?  Because everybody in the damn town was on that wagon with the exception of the two people who didn't happen to log in in that twelve hour time-span.  (And for those of you who need a raerae-translation, there was approximation and exaggeration utilized in that sentence.)  And what actually makes you think I'm scum, let's hear it.

Well, if I had to pick a scum team now, id say you/eevee/adk. Definitely not 100 percent confident. And yes, it is the wagon that makes me think ur scum. Its not much, but not much is all we've got on D1

[AndrewisFTTW]

I have to say that I do find Andrew a little scummy... but not nearly scummy enough to overcome my bias against lynching newbies on Day 1.

Well shucks.

[pingpongsam]

PPS and Eevee quickly chiming in to speak against the wagon...

I haven't spoken against it. I generally expect such a fast D1 wagon to be on town, though. I had no fantasy that my comment was going to slow anything down.

[pingpongsam]

So, here's a question, is anybody even going to listen to me or should I just hammer myself now?  There was no sarcasm there.  I'm not going to waste my time if you're not going to listen.

Oh boo hoo, we've got a victim. This is practically always a scumtell and even if it isn't nobody wants someone around who won't play their wincon.

[pingpongsam]

I have to say that I do find Andrew a little scummy... but not nearly scummy enough to overcome my bias against lynching newbies on Day 1.

Agree 100%

[pingpongsam]

So who are my partners, mail-mi?  Because everybody in the damn town was on that wagon with the exception of the two people who didn't happen to log in in that twelve hour time-span.

False, I am Town, I wasn't on the wagon and I was there when it crescendoed.

Discrediting mail-mi for not calling the scumteam on D1 is weak deflection.

This is piss poor play regardless of raerae's alignment.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I have to say that I do find Andrew a little scummy... but not nearly scummy enough to overcome my bias against lynching newbies on Day 1.

Agree 100%

So how do I seem a little scummy?

[yuma]

OK, I'm done with this nonsense.  It was never a "trap", it was never a "set-up", it was a damn question to gauge reaction and response.  I responded to mcmc when he asked what wouldn't have made me vote and I thought that was clear.  Do you have questions on that response, yuma?  Or anybody else who thinks I'm just prowling these woods, setting traps, and poaching whatever comes in?

Ok... maybe trap isn't quite the right wordage to use. But let's look at what you did...

So this quote is at the end of the post that you quoted:

Personally, I think the thing on shraeye is nonsense and I'm shocked it gained as much traction as it did.

So you come into the conversation before questioning Andrew with the idea in mind that the case on shraeye was nonsense... This is your mindset...

With this mindset you form the following questions: (with an answer to the first from Andrew in between)

Hey, Andrew, can we get your side of the story on this?  You think shraeye was trying to paint you in an ugly way?

and

Sure. I did feel a little pressured and it seemed like the question was posed in an accusatory manner. However, this is the internet and I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I have no facial expression to go on and certain sentences can seem like they're saying more than they actually are. That is to say things can be quite easily misinterpreted and skewed. Ok now I'm rambling.

Sorry for playing devil's advocate but the main thing I felt when I first read that was "why am I being asked this? I thought I was clear what I was trying to learn." It seemed more like prodding and unnecessary interrogation than a serious curiosity. Of course, that's what this game is about right?

So, is shraeye scum or not?

You lead Andrew into the conversation about shraeye. You phrase your question so that it makes Andrew think about shraeye in an "ugly" scummy way.

He gives an answer that I felt perfectly answered what you asked... He says that the question was asked in an accusatory manner (giving you the knowledge that there was some scummy inclination on his part) but isn't sure about it... since when is some indecision such a bad thing on day1 from a brand new player??? I mean sure it isn't ideal. But I think it is far better than a player who comes in with the idea that their reads are absolute and 100% accurate and will refuse to budge!

After that you post a question that in and of itself isn't bad. "Is shraeye scummy?" But the way it is phrased makes it look like Andrew was trying to avoid answering that question in his first reply when you never asked him that question directly.


So really what I saw was:
1. you came in with an established idea about the shraeye wagon (and thus shraeye's alignment"
2. you primed Andrew with a question to make him be inclined to find shraeye scummy
3. you seemed to express disappointment that Andrew didn't come out and directly say shraeye was scummy when you never specifically asked him that
4. and then once he does directly answer your question you vote, which seems like it was the whole purpose of it all, that you wanted to get him to vote for shraeye so you could then vote for him.

I don't know... maybe I am seeing something here that isn't really here, but that is what I feel like I saw. And maybe there is a town narrative to what you did (it isn't really my style of trying to out scum)

As for questions... I don't know if I really have any.... I will certainly read any response you write and answer any questions you have...

[yuma]

So, here's a question, is anybody even going to listen to me or should I just hammer myself now?  There was no sarcasm there.  I'm not going to waste my time if you're not going to listen.

Oh boo hoo, we've got a victim. This is practically always a scumtell and even if it isn't nobody wants someone around who won't play their wincon.

What you are dong here is also practically always a scumtell as well...

[yuma]

So I think it is about time for a Voltaire style post:

Basically trying to eliminate players I am not comfortable lynching today so that I can hopefully narrow down on scum:

1.  Eevee
2.  scott_pilgrim
3.  Robz888 - last game gives me more confidence in my ability to read Robz. Which isn't to say that I can currently read him right now as there isn't much to read into... So analyzing him later
4.  mail-mi
5.  yuma - this is me!
6.  mcmcsalot - his on/off vote on raerae read townie to me
7.  A Drowned Kernel
8.  pingpongsam
9.  raerae
10. AndrewisFTTW - There is some stuff here, but as I have said before I think egregious behavior is required to lynch a newbie. I don't see egregious.
11. shraeye
12. Axxle - I don't get his playstyle honestly, but he is active and very engaging. I think that is enough for me for a day1 pass.

Out of who is left: Eevee (kinda a null read), scott (mr. lurker man!), mail-mi (always reads scummy to me. He is like Arch... anytime I want to vote for him he is town, so he is probably town), ADK (Robz why are you voting for him?), PPS (town read has kinda wained a bit, I might lynch here, worth a look at), shraeye (I could lynch here, I don't see why raerae is so confident that the wagon on him was nonsense)

[Robz888]

ADK (Robz why are you voting for him?), PPS (town read has kinda wained a bit, I might lynch here, worth a look at), shraeye (I could lynch here, I don't see why raerae is so confident that the wagon on him was nonsense)

His unvote on raerae, which is an unvote I think scum would make, regardless of whether raerae was scum or not. And he strikes me as overly cautious and polite.

Really, I could lynch anyone in your non-eliminated pool, though.

I do remember back in mafia XIX that raerae and shraeye were apt to defend each other just 'cuz. (In that game, they did happen to both be town). So what's going on here isn't so out of left field.

[A Drowned Kernel]

@ Robz: I unvoted because my initial vote was before the business with AndrewFTTW and was a pressure tactic since I was wary of the shraeye wagon and raerae's vote was a RVS hangover. When a real wagon formed super-quickly and she was in the vicinity of being lynched I unvoted to try and stop a possible mislynch.

My best scum bet right now is mail-mi, who just sort of jumped on not one but two wagons as soon as they got started.

Vote: mail-mi

Yuma you didn't comment on raerae.

[scott_pilgrim]

ADK (Robz why are you voting for him?), PPS (town read has kinda wained a bit, I might lynch here, worth a look at), shraeye (I could lynch here, I don't see why raerae is so confident that the wagon on him was nonsense)

His unvote on raerae, which is an unvote I think scum would make, regardless of whether raerae was scum or not.

Why is this scummy if raerae is town?  (Not saying it's not, just wondering.)  If raerae flipped scum I would definitely look at ADK next, but I don't feel like he's a better lynch than raerae right now.

[Robz888]

ADK (Robz why are you voting for him?), PPS (town read has kinda wained a bit, I might lynch here, worth a look at), shraeye (I could lynch here, I don't see why raerae is so confident that the wagon on him was nonsense)

His unvote on raerae, which is an unvote I think scum would make, regardless of whether raerae was scum or not.

Why is this scummy if raerae is town?  (Not saying it's not, just wondering.)  If raerae flipped scum I would definitely look at ADK next, but I don't feel like he's a better lynch than raerae right now.

The default position scum want to be is not on a wagon that generated a mislynch.

[Eevee]

the speed of the wagon worries me more than the way raerae set andrew up comforts me.

Huh... I hadn't noticed that Eevee was voting (and still is) for raerae when he posted this.

Huh! I had no idea I was.

[Eevee]

Raerae reaching L-1 that fast makes her more likely to be town I think. I would have unvoted her had I realized I was on her.

vote: scott lack of contributions, seems to be playing it too safe.

[Axxle]

Again, I have no experience with what is "scummy" or "townie" but Axxle's erratic posting and constant joking about being scum is obviously to get some sort of response. Would it be scummy to cast early suspicion on yourself so as not to be considered scummy later?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

That question.  By asking it, what information are you trying to learn?  Is it rhetorical?

btw, this is rhetorical. Shraeye is just trying to make the new player look scummy for asking for scumhunting advice. Both trying to get people to target him and discouraging asking these kinds of questions.
Confirm vote: shraeye

Hm. That's a good point. vote: shraeye

Okay, lots if stuff going on here.
First off the question Andrew asks: I don't fin asking this scummy, we have had discussions about this lately which makes it more likely to come up(maybe he read about it)
Shraeye's question: I think it's fine for shraeye to ask this if Andrew did ask that question because he was coached now he has to lie. I have no clue why people found him scummy for this.
Axxle votes: the fact that axxle votes before Andrew answers cuts out anything potentially helpful. I find axxle very scummy for this.

@andrew, claiming means claiming your role, vanilla townie or power role.

Is this word for word what you meant to say? No typos?

Mcmc please answer this

[pingpongsam]

Raerae reaching L-1 that fast makes her more likely to be town I think. I would have unvoted her had I realized I was on her.

vote: scott lack of contributions, seems to be playing it too safe.

The default position scum want to be is not on a wagon that generated a mislynch.

Right, still reading scum in Eevee and do not doubt Andrew is his partner. scotty is playing within his meta.

With the current information at hand I will not lynch raerae. Would lynch ADK.

[pingpongsam]

So, here's a question, is anybody even going to listen to me or should I just hammer myself now?  There was no sarcasm there.  I'm not going to waste my time if you're not going to listen.

Oh boo hoo, we've got a victim. This is practically always a scumtell and even if it isn't nobody wants someone around who won't play their wincon.

What you are dong here is also practically always a scumtell as well...

Interesting, I caught quite a bit of this in Diffusion of Power and guess who was scum there? Playing the why is everyone ganging up on me/tunneling me card is an emotional ploy regardless of alignment. Being a game of logical deduction emotional ploys become smokescreens. Argue the case, make your own or die trying.

[yuma]

Yuma you didn't comment on raerae.

I didn't comment on raerae?

?
?
?

?

[yuma]

Playing the why is everyone ganging up on me/tunneling me card is an emotional ploy regardless of alignment.

It isn't always a ploy though. Perhaps people perceive it as such, but it isn't. I can tell you that I am not so full in control of my emotions that I can use them exclusively as "ploys." Sometimes my emotions come out--regardless of alignment--with no ulterior motive other than me being a human.

I do think that people calling out someone as scummy for having emotion is far and away scummier than someone being emotional. It is too hard to tell if emotions are feigned or real in this setting. And far too often I think they are real.

[mcmcsalot]

@axxle so the answer is no, I didn't mean to do that, now did you want to know because if I did mean to do that it would have made me auto scum in your mind or potentially town? Also your awesome.

[pingpongsam]

Playing the why is everyone ganging up on me/tunneling me card is an emotional ploy regardless of alignment.

It isn't always a ploy though. Perhaps people perceive it as such, but it isn't. I can tell you that I am not so full in control of my emotions that I can use them exclusively as "ploys." Sometimes my emotions come out--regardless of alignment--with no ulterior motive other than me being a human.

I do think that people calling out someone as scummy for having emotion is far and away scummier than someone being emotional. It is too hard to tell if emotions are feigned or real in this setting. And far too often I think they are real.

Maybe ploy was the wrong word. I agree the emotion can and often is real. Its utility to the game is very low, however. I just looked up ploy and it is the wrong word. I mean that the emotional appeal is being used as the argument instead of resorting to logic which is of high utility.

As scum using emotional appeals is a ploy even when the emotion is real. As Town using emotional appeals is a wide open target for scum to strike especially when the emotion is real.

[pingpongsam]

I should note that I am refusing to vote raerae because I do not feel there is a high case on her and the emotional episodes are too messy to read without any other context. While I have implicated that the behavior may be scummy I am certainly not trying to drive a point home or to support her current wagon. Rather, my point was more of a shape up and play the game if you are Town so we aren't flopping around in an emotional cesspool of practically zero utility.

[shraeye]

Okay, so I think from all this that the wagon, IMO, is a scum wagon run up by scum. Scum who wanted to get their partner,  raerae, up on an early wagon so she wouldn't be suspected later in the game. This is because of how quickly it rose/fell. So, based on this, vote: raerae.

Yes, I agree here.

A lot of general rap, quick wagon, quick dissipation.  It all seemed a bit too canned to me. 

Well, so I liked your initial reason for voting her a lot, but that was kind of a quick wagon.

Although I was glad to have a quick, obviously doomed wagon against me on Day 1 when I was scum in that last game.

I'm probably more keen on looking at the raerae unvoters. ADK?

I think Axxle's pressure-vote/unvote is not very indicative of alignment.  It could be a tool; but also seems pretty forced, especially if he knows raerae's meta and how she would react. raerae's interactions with Andrew seem forced, and his vote on her seemed rather "well, I have to be here if her lynch is going down."  I didn't get any direct feel from ADK's stuff...what are you talking about there?

Okay, so I think from all this that the wagon, IMO, is a scum wagon run up by scum. Scum who wanted to get their partner,  raerae, up on an early wagon so she wouldn't be suspected later in the game. This is because of how quickly it rose/fell. So, based on this, vote: raerae.

So who are my partners, mail-mi?  Because everybody in the damn town was on that wagon with the exception of the two people who didn't happen to log in in that twelve hour time-span.  (And for those of you who need a raerae-translation, there was approximation and exaggeration utilized in that sentence.)  And what actually makes you think I'm scum, let's hear it.

Not sure what mail-mi thinks, but if you're scum I bet they were some of the early/reasonless people on your wagon.  I'd be looking at Andrew in particular if you flip scum.

[shraeye]

Playing the why is everyone ganging up on me/tunneling me card is an emotional ploy regardless of alignment.

It isn't always a ploy though. Perhaps people perceive it as such, but it isn't. I can tell you that I am not so full in control of my emotions that I can use them exclusively as "ploys." Sometimes my emotions come out--regardless of alignment--with no ulterior motive other than me being a human.

I do think that people calling out someone as scummy for having emotion is far and away scummier than someone being emotional. It is too hard to tell if emotions are feigned or real in this setting. And far too often I think they are real.

Notice that yuma is simultaneously attacking raerae in his surrounding posts, and in THIS post is give pps a reason to step off of his suspicion of raerae.

vote: yuma

[pingpongsam]

Agree that if raerae flips scum Andrew is likely scum. Feel better about Andrew being scum outside of raerae's alignment. If Andrew is scum then I am feeling strongly that Eevee is scum.

Won't vote raerae today. Won't kill the new guy today. Leaves me with Eevee at this point.

[pingpongsam]

Notice that yuma is simultaneously attacking raerae in his surrounding posts, and in THIS post is give pps a reason to step off of his suspicion of raerae.

I'm not particularly suspicious of raerae. I think she is playing poorly. I had already stated ahead of this post that I wouldn't be voting raerae so I'm not seeing yuma enable me to do something I might otherwise look badly doing because I wasn't doing it to begin with.

[shraeye]

what I see about yuma is that he's worried your comments on raerae will build to something, and is quickly trying to prevent other players from latching onto that.

[shraeye]

This push/pull is a classic mafia tactic, and can be used regardless of raerae's alignment.  I've definitely used it before as a way to give myself an out if popular opinion goes against my case on a towny.

But I did come at this from the perspective of being suspicious of raerae and looking for her partners.  So I think this connection is also of significance.

[AndrewisFTTW]

The person I'm most suspicious of right now is ADK. Flying under the radar until she got off the raerae wagon as soon as Axxle was about to hammer. He seems to be overly cautious and concerned with a mislynch, but only when things get serious.

I'm still suspicious of Axxle and to a lesser extent Eevee. Axxle for consistently having me back so as to avoid suspicion of himself, especially if a mislynch occurs. Eevee didn't know who he voted for? Huh? That's a pretty lame excuse for jumping off a wagon that nobody's into anymore.

[shraeye]

eh, it's happened before, not recalling where your first random vote was.  I don't really find that suspicious.

[pingpongsam]

what I see about yuma is that he's worried your comments on raerae will build to something, and is quickly trying to prevent other players from latching onto that.

Okay, I'll bite. I had a town read on yuma for being within meta but I can read his play as cognitive buddying. He did it early on with my very first posts.

Vote: yuma

[Robz888]

I won't be lynching yuma, and trying to get a wagon going on yuma is almost a scumtell by itself. his makes me want to vote for shraeye and PPS.

I've actually been thinking that the raerae lynch is maybe informational enough to justify it. Yeah, I know that's never like a good way of thinking, but then I can really look at that wagon and see what happened.

[mcmcsalot]

I agree with robz

[shraeye]

I agree with robz

In what regard?  He said two disparate things in his post.

[pingpongsam]

I agree with robz

In what regard?  He said two disparate things in his post.

I took it to mean he was happy to lynch any one of those townies but certainly not his partner.

[shraeye]

I agree with robz

In what regard?  He said two disparate things in his post.

I took it to mean he was happy to lynch any one of those townies but certainly not his partner.

I'm confused by this; who is who's partner?

[pingpongsam]

I agree with robz

In what regard?  He said two disparate things in his post.

I took it to mean he was happy to lynch any one of those townies but certainly not his partner.

I'm confused by this; who is who's partner?

First it was primarily tongue in cheek, second, it depends on which player you are referring to, Robz or mcmc but in either case yuma could be a partner since it was explicitly stated that he was off the lynch table with no good reason why.

[mcmcsalot]

I meant I agree with willingness to lynch raerae, and non willingness to lynch yuma, I thin Yuma is too helpful to lynch day 1

[A Drowned Kernel]

Upon a reread the whole raerae wagon looks like a confused mess to me, not like something that scum would have deliberately set up to get going and then fail, especially with the L-1 confusion. So I would think that's a wagon on town, and that one or more of the people who jumped on it are scum. First and foremost would be mail-mi, who I'm keeping my vote on, since he did kind of the same thing with the shraeye wagon. Other players I'm suspicious of are SP mcmc, who jumped on and then off but kept trying to push it from the sidelines. I'm slightly suspicious of FTTW but he seems more newbie than anything else, and his defensiveness to accusations against are coming off as townie.

@yuma: I said you didn't comment on raerae but I was just looking at the post above mine, I've been trying to reread all this over and over and keep getting confused, sorry about that.

@Robz and FTTW: How cautious is too cautious? I'm just trying to be honest about that fact that I don't have terribly good reads yet, it's still Day One. (Also, FTTW, I am a guy, but good on you for not making assumptions about gender).

[shraeye]

I meant I agree with willingness to lynch raerae, and non willingness to lynch yuma, I thin Yuma is too helpful to lynch day 1

I don't believe any person is "too helpful" to lynch day 1.

[mcmcsalot]

I meant I agree with willingness to lynch raerae, and non willingness to lynch yuma, I thin Yuma is too helpful to lynch day 1

I don't believe any person is "too helpful" to lynch day 1.

true but i also don't think hes been terribly scummy, certaintly not enough to overcome his helpfullness.

[pingpongsam]

The thing with yuma is he can easily be scum hiding in Towny clothes on D1. His meta is to make analysis on reactions almost like a commentator. He makes astute analysis that is useful for consideration and thus is easy to construe as Town behavior. But ultimately his method is impartial and non-committal avoiding getting cornered into any solid position. That, in and of itself, is null regarding his alignment, it's just his meta. But, when I take that meta and look at who it is being applied to the concept arises that I am possibly being psychologically coaxed into a lull.

[Robz888]

The thing with yuma is he is really, really useful to the town, and too dangerous for scum to leave alive, and a good target for investigations and things of that nature. So let's put a pin in that for now.

[pingpongsam]

The thing with yuma is he is really, really useful to the town, and too dangerous for scum to leave alive, and a good target for investigations and things of that nature. So let's put a pin in that for now.

Vote: Eevee

[AndrewisFTTW]

@Robz and FTTW: How cautious is too cautious? I'm just trying to be honest about that fact that I don't have terribly good reads yet, it's still Day One. (Also, FTTW, I am a guy, but good on you for not making assumptions about gender).

I know you're a dude, sorry if I called you "she" somewhere by accident.

It's not about bad reads. It's about committing to something enough to see it through. If you're not ready to lynch then don't feel pressured to vote. Lurking and voting and quickly inviting at the last minute seems scummy.

I agree with Rob in regard to yuma.

[AndrewisFTTW]

@Robz and FTTW: How cautious is too cautious? I'm just trying to be honest about that fact that I don't have terribly good reads yet, it's still Day One. (Also, FTTW, I am a guy, but good on you for not making assumptions about gender).

I know you're a dude, sorry if I called you "she" somewhere by accident.

It's not about bad reads. It's about committing to something enough to see it through. If you're not ready to lynch then don't feel pressured to vote. Lurking and voting and quickly inviting at the last minute seems scummy.

I agree with Rob in regard to yuma.

I did not mean "inviting" but rather "unvoting". Autocorrect is a pain in the ads.

[AndrewisFTTW]

@Robz and FTTW: How cautious is too cautious? I'm just trying to be honest about that fact that I don't have terribly good reads yet, it's still Day One. (Also, FTTW, I am a guy, but good on you for not making assumptions about gender).

I know you're a dude, sorry if I called you "she" somewhere by accident.

It's not about bad reads. It's about committing to something enough to see it through. If you're not ready to lynch then don't feel pressured to vote. Lurking and voting and quickly inviting at the last minute seems scummy.

I agree with Rob in regard to yuma.

I did not mean "inviting" but rather "unvoting". Autocorrect is a pain in the ads.

Autocorrect and typing on a phone are both pains in the ass.

[Teproc]

Vote Count 1.11:

raerae (4): yuma, scott_pilgrim, AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi
yuma (1): shraeye
shraeye (1): Axxle
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae
A Drowned Kernel (1): Robz888
mail-mi (1): A Drowned Kernel
scott_pilgrim (1): Eevee
Eevee(1): pingpongsam

Not Voting (1):  mcmcsalot

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

[shraeye]

The thing with yuma is he is really, really useful to the town, and too dangerous for scum to leave alive, and a good target for investigations and things of that nature. So let's put a pin in that for now.

This is untrue. I'm pretty sure I've purposefully left yuma alive as scum just so I could abuse the fact that people believe this argument.  There was a discussion about this in the Donner Party mafia, and I think it was between you and me, in fact.

yuma's a good player, let's give him credit.  But nobody is so useful for town that in every case, they are too dangerous for scum to leave alive.

[Robz888]

The thing with yuma is he is really, really useful to the town, and too dangerous for scum to leave alive, and a good target for investigations and things of that nature. So let's put a pin in that for now.

This is untrue. I'm pretty sure I've purposefully left yuma alive as scum just so I could abuse the fact that people believe this argument.  There was a discussion about this in the Donner Party mafia, and I think it was between you and me, in fact.

yuma's a good player, let's give him credit.  But nobody is so useful for town that in every case, they are too dangerous for scum to leave alive.

Well, not in every case of course. But the burden of proof to lynch yuma has to be a little higher than others, and it has to be  LOT higher on Day 1.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I think people are painting my unvote the wrong way. I was voting for raerae for reasons that were completely independent of the wagon that formed on her, was away from the game for a little while (it was like a day but that's a while I suppose), came back and unvoted when I saw what was going on.

[shraeye]

I think people are painting my unvote the wrong way. I was voting for raerae for reasons that were completely independent of the wagon that formed on her, was away from the game for a little while (it was like a day but that's a while I suppose), came back and unvoted when I saw what was going on.

I just looked back at your vote and the wagon.  I believe your version of this event.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I think people are painting my unvote the wrong way. I was voting for raerae for reasons that were completely independent of the wagon that formed on her, was away from the game for a little while (it was like a day but that's a while I suppose), came back and unvoted when I saw what was going on.

What was going on that made you want to uncover?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I think people are painting my unvote the wrong way. I was voting for raerae for reasons that were completely independent of the wagon that formed on her, was away from the game for a little while (it was like a day but that's a while I suppose), came back and unvoted when I saw what was going on.

What was going on that made you want to uncover?

Jesus christ this autocorrect is killing me. I meant "unvote".

[A Drowned Kernel]

A wagon formed very quickly on a premise that I didn't find particularly sound. I didn't want a mislynch so I unvoted.

[AndrewisFTTW]

A wagon formed very quickly on a premise that I didn't find particularly sound. I didn't want a mislynch so I unvoted.

You had a vote on raerae which means you suspected she was scum. Why then does it matter what the premise is?

[A Drowned Kernel]

My original vote was not on a strong suspicion of her being scum, it was because she had her vote on shraeye and I was looking for an explanation.

[raerae]

My original vote was not on a strong suspicion of her being scum, it was because she had her vote on shraeye and I was looking for an explanation.

Beyond RVS?  I clearly answered that question, why didn't you unvote when your question was answered.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I was still worried about the shraeye wagon and your vote was still on it. When that discussion was going I didn't think there was any danger of raerae getting lynched. When there was I unvoted.

[yuma]

Playing the why is everyone ganging up on me/tunneling me card is an emotional ploy regardless of alignment.

It isn't always a ploy though. Perhaps people perceive it as such, but it isn't. I can tell you that I am not so full in control of my emotions that I can use them exclusively as "ploys." Sometimes my emotions come out--regardless of alignment--with no ulterior motive other than me being a human.

I do think that people calling out someone as scummy for having emotion is far and away scummier than someone being emotional. It is too hard to tell if emotions are feigned or real in this setting. And far too often I think they are real.

Notice that yuma is simultaneously attacking raerae in his surrounding posts, and in THIS post is give pps a reason to step off of his suspicion of raerae.

vote: yuma

this is absurd... I am not speaking about raerae's alignment at all in those posts--which as I am still voting for her, I still think she is scummy--but instead speaking specifically about emotional reactions and how responding negatively to them is scummy and in my opinion poor play.

To me emotional reactions have far and away been used against players, which is just silly... people are human and have emotions! They are rarely feigned or faked. And someone calling them feigned or fake is 1. scummy because it places suspicion on someone for being human and on something that can't be substantiated at all and 2. just makes the original player more emotional and becomes a distraction from the game!

I don't see how you see me as scum for calling out PPS for finding an emotion in an emotional game to be scummy... regardless of what my feelings about said player are...

[yuma]

what I see about yuma is that he's worried your comments on raerae will build to something, and is quickly trying to prevent other players from latching onto that.

What I am worried about is people putting stock in emotional tells when they lynching because of emotions has proven in the past to be unsubstantiated and led to far too many mislynches and just make people dislike the game of mafia...

[yuma]

This push/pull is a classic mafia tactic, and can be used regardless of raerae's alignment.  I've definitely used it before as a way to give myself an out if popular opinion goes against my case on a towny.

But I did come at this from the perspective of being suspicious of raerae and looking for her partners.  So I think this connection is also of significance.

And now you have changed your mind about what my posts mean now that PPS has commented?

First you say that I am worried that PPS will encourage others to vote for the very player I am voting for...

But now you are saying that I am worried that I won't have a way to get off the wagon?

I don't really understand what you think about me at all at this point... Can you clarify because these posts in succession don't make sense next to each other to me...

[pingpongsam]

A wagon formed very quickly on a premise that I didn't find particularly sound. I didn't want a mislynch so I unvoted.

You had a vote on raerae which means you suspected she was scum. Why then does it matter what the premise is?

Begging the question. Votes do not necessitate suspicion of scum.

[yuma]

I meant I agree with willingness to lynch raerae, and non willingness to lynch yuma, I thin Yuma is too helpful to lynch day 1

I don't believe any person is "too helpful" to lynch day 1.

I agree with this premise and don't understand it for me or for others. Yes there are certain people that I think require an extra level of scumminess to lynch (but in general that is because I feel that I can read them better on later days, not helpfulness) but even that isn't very much. I do think that there is some merit to being a little cautious when considering lynching your highest posters because a game that lags is a game that favors scum, but that should be slight an apply to a handful of people... not just me.

But more importantly I fear that it gives people an opportunity to avoid taking a solid stand on me.... For example look at what a handful of people said: "I won't be lynching yuma because he shouldn't be lynched day1." Not... I think yuma is town or I think yuma is scum.

[Robz888]

I think yuma is town, like a lot. But I don't know if I can explain this feeling with like words.

[Robz888]

I want to random lynch someone.

Vote: Scotty

[Robz888]

Everyone join. Do it now.

[mcmcsalot]

I want to random lynch someone.

Vote: Scotty

why random lynch over raerae?

[yuma]

A wagon formed very quickly on a premise that I didn't find particularly sound. I didn't want a mislynch so I unvoted.

I guess I find this statement somewhat strange partially because I am the one who came up with the premise and I find it to be sound... but it is certainly more sound than your vote on her in the first place.

What makes it unsound would you say?

[Axxle]

Vote: scotty
It's not too random, he hasn't said anything accept "null" "claiming is bad" and "lets hop on raerae and say the incorrect lynch count."

I'd hammer raerae, she reads to me as angry, useless town, I'd rather her not get to Lylo.

[yuma]

But ultimately his method is impartial and non-committal avoiding getting cornered into any solid position.

WHAT? Impartial I try to be... but non-committal? No having a solid position? It is obviously apparent that you have only played one game with me--and apparently payed no attention to my play style that game--for you to have formed this meta on me...

[Axxle]

A wagon formed very quickly on a premise that I didn't find particularly sound. I didn't want a mislynch so I unvoted.

I guess I find this statement somewhat strange partially because I am the one who came up with the premise and I find it to be sound... but it is certainly more sound than your vote on her in the first place.

What makes it unsound would you say?

It's called second guessing yourself.

[yuma]

I want to random lynch someone.

Vote: Scotty

Robz the last time you proposed a random lynch like this we were scum together...

So for me to join you on this lynch in such a random way you are either going to have to show me why I should vote for scotty or show me why I should believe you are town and aren't starting up another random wagon as scum on a townie like in DW2

[scott_pilgrim]

This:

I want to random lynch someone.

Vote: Scotty

why random lynch over raerae?

I'm a lot more okay with Axxle's vote, because he at least gives some reasons why I would be a good lynch.  But the only reason a random lynch makes sense as town is if you have null reads on everyone (or maybe more generally, you have equally scummy reads on a group of people, so you pick whom you vote randomly from that group).  Of course if you're scum, random lynch makes a lot of sense, because if you can't guess PR's, you might as well just pick randomly among those who are known town.  OTOH, if you're just going for a lynch, raerae was right there at L-2 (I think it's L-3 now), so for scum!you to prefer my lynch to hers would imply she is also scum (unless for some reason you think I have a PR and she doesn't).  I also find it odd how readily Axxle jumped in with that, but again, he at least gave some reasons.

Of course that's all speculation, I'm not saying that if you're scum raerae is definitely scum.  It's also possible that you would indirectly use your vote for me as a way of trying to get people to conclude in the way I just did that raerae is scum, when she is actually town, though that would be a really weird way of doing that.  So anyway, I think random voting in general like that without any explanation is scummy, but the fact that you did it on someone that I know is town is enough to make me vote you.

vote: Robz

Also another possibility I just thought of, Robz and raerae are masons.  I still don't really feel like that justifies a random vote though.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.12:

raerae (3): yuma, AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi
yuma (1): shraeye
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae
mail-mi (1): A Drowned Kernel
scott_pilgrim (3): Eevee, Robz888, Axxle
Eevee (1): pingpongsam
Robz888 (1): scott_pilgrim

Not Voting (1): mcmcsalot

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

[Axxle]

I don't see robz as doing anything other than "trying to get a rise out of people" like he did earlier in the game.  Pretty null to me.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I was still worried about the shraeye wagon and your vote was still on it. When that discussion was going I didn't think there was any danger of raerae getting lynched. When there was I unvoted.

So we've got a pretty decent wagon on Shraeye, but it seems to have a pretty flimsy basis to me. Axxle originally voted because Shraeye's posts were supposedly just fluff, which isn't isn't that unusual at the beginning of the game, then confirmed it because Shraeye gave a newbie a little bit of a hard time. Then mail-mi and yuma basically jumped on the wagon without a contribution to the discussion beyond "yeah, what Axxle said!" And raerae's vote is a RVS holdover (I'm assuming that was RVS), so I'm just gonna put my vote on her until she changes hers or justifies it.

Vote: raerae

Wait, wait, wait...you're trying to force me to change an RVS vote to...what?  Do we have an actual case on anybody right now?  Not that I've seen so exactly what is my incentive to change my vote?  Just cuz you say so?  raerae don't play that game, sweetie.

So your vote was to pressure raerae into changing her vote... why? You thought everyone's vote was nonsense (Axxle, mail-mi, yuma, raerae) and then vote for raerae for even less of a reason as everyone else did for shraeye. Then you back off because you're not impressed with anyone's reasons for voting for raerae. This is my impression of it.

[Robz888]

I want to random lynch someone.

Vote: Scotty

Robz the last time you proposed a random lynch like this we were scum together...

So for me to join you on this lynch in such a random way you are either going to have to show me why I should vote for scotty or show me why I should believe you are town and aren't starting up another random wagon as scum on a townie like in DW2

Yeah, that's fair. I don't really have a reason to go with Scotty though... he's just a true null person.

I do find his OMGUS interesting though.

[A Drowned Kernel]

What makes it unsound would you say?

I guess I would say your vote was understandable from the position that her "trap" was automatically scummy, but it never seemed to me like something that a town wouldn't do. I was (and am) more concerned with the fact that people jumped on the wagon so quickly (or at least I got that impression, it all happened in between two log-ins for me), and my unvote was certainly an emotional response to what I thought was an imminent lynching and what was quite possibly a mislynch. I realize my original vote was a somewhat clumsy tactic but it was based on what was going on in the game at the time.

@ FTTW My pressure vote on raerae was for a similar reason for my quick unvote later, I disliked that a wagon was forming quickly and for reasons that I thought weren't very justified. I didn't like people who were honestly voting for shraeye's reasons, but raerae wasn't honestly voting for him, she was sitting on a RVS vote, so I decided to vote for her and explicitly say I was doing it to get a response for her in the post that she quotes. Maybe using my vote as a pressure tactic wasn't the smartest move but it's what I did, and then when an honest wagon formed on her I pulled it.

[Robz888]

I'm also okay with raerae getting lynched. Shraeye or PPS would be okay, too.

[AndrewisFTTW]

What makes it unsound would you say?

I guess I would say your vote was understandable from the position that her "trap" was automatically scummy, but it never seemed to me like something that a town wouldn't do. I was (and am) more concerned with the fact that people jumped on the wagon so quickly (or at least I got that impression, it all happened in between two log-ins for me), and my unvote was certainly an emotional response to what I thought was an imminent lynching and what was quite possibly a mislynch. I realize my original vote was a somewhat clumsy tactic but it was based on what was going on in the game at the time.

@ FTTW My pressure vote on raerae was for a similar reason for my quick unvote later, I disliked that a wagon was forming quickly and for reasons that I thought weren't very justified. I didn't like people who were honestly voting for shraeye's reasons, but raerae wasn't honestly voting for him, she was sitting on a RVS vote, so I decided to vote for her and explicitly say I was doing it to get a response for her in the post that she quotes. Maybe using my vote as a pressure tactic wasn't the smartest move but it's what I did, and then when an honest wagon formed on her I pulled it.

Cool thanks. One more thing:

My best scum bet right now is mail-mi, who just sort of jumped on not one but two wagons as soon as they got started.

Vote: mail-mi

Just FYI mail-mi only voted for raerae after you and Axxle unvoted.

[A Drowned Kernel]

You're right, I was very much misremembering that. Looking back his reasoning is also more substantial than I remembered. I am suspicious of his lurking though.

[pingpongsam]

The scotty vote is not random as Robz suggests.

First off it was supported by Eevee so it's not even original. Secondly, it's Robz proposed not random.

Here's a random vote for you:

Players:
1.  Eevee
2.  scott_pilgrim
3.  Robz888
4.  mail-mi
5.  yuma
6.  mcmcsalot
7.  A Drowned Kernel
8.  pingpongsam
9.  raerae
10. AndrewisFTTW
11. shraeye
12. Axxle

Rolled 1d12 : 2, total 2

[pingpongsam]

The fact that the random roll fell on scotty is hilarious

[pingpongsam]

So anyway, I think random voting in general like that without any explanation is scummy, but the fact that you did it on someone that I know is town is enough to make me vote you.

I dig you on the scum factor because as I just illustrated it wasn't verifiably random. However, presuming it was indeed random then the "fact" that it fell on town only supports the probabilistic likelihood that a Town result would be chosen and would be completely unrelated to the circumstances surrounding the method of selection.

I can't tell if you conflating the two is deliberately misleading or just an otherwise candid read clouded with emotion.

[mail-mi]

You're right, I was very much misremembering that. Looking back his reasoning is also more substantial than I remembered. I am suspicious of his lurking though.

Check the vla thread.

@randolynch: ummmm no and I would vote for he who started it, but hes Robz snd raerae is better anyhow.

[scott_pilgrim]

So anyway, I think random voting in general like that without any explanation is scummy, but the fact that you did it on someone that I know is town is enough to make me vote you.

I dig you on the scum factor because as I just illustrated it wasn't verifiably random. However, presuming it was indeed random then the "fact" that it fell on town only supports the probabilistic likelihood that a Town result would be chosen and would be completely unrelated to the circumstances surrounding the method of selection.

I can't tell if you conflating the two is deliberately misleading or just an otherwise candid read clouded with emotion.

What?  I assumed that because Robz said it was random, it was random.  I mean, is there a reason town would say they are voting for someone randomly when they actually have reasons?  And my point was that why would town prefer a random lynch over a lynch on someone they suspect is scummy, it makes no sense.  And Robz still hasn't answered that either.  Seriously, am I the only one who thinks it looks really scummy to just say "Let's pick someone random to lynch, come on everyone let's start a wagon on this guy for literally no reason."  I would be voting for Robz even if he had picked someone other than me, though the fact that he picked me might make me a little biased.  I mean yeah he didn't publicly roll a die to determine who to lynch, because you can't do that as scum in case it lands on your partner.  (You could, but it's easier not to worry about that.)

[Robz888]

I didn't use true random to pick Scotty, no. I chose someone among the less scrutinized players who I thought could be scum but had no wagon. Scotty.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I don't think Robz actually expected anyone else to jump on a wagon on scott just because he "randomly" voted for him. Why Robz decided to do it in the first place, however, is beyond me.

[Robz888]

I don't think Robz actually expected anyone else to jump on a wagon on scott just because he "randomly" voted for him. Why Robz decided to do it in the first place, however, is beyond me.

Reasons.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I don't think Robz actually expected anyone else to jump on a wagon on scott just because he "randomly" voted for him. Why Robz decided to do it in the first place, however, is beyond me.

Reasons.

Such as?

[Robz888]

Well I want to see who follows me and why.

[raerae]

Hey, mail-mi, why do you believe Robz when he said he wasn't setting a trap with his IC comment but you don't believe me?

[mail-mi]

Hey, mail-mi, why do you believe Robz when he said he wasn't setting a trap with his IC comment but you don't believe me?

I never said I did or didn't

[raerae]

Hey, mail-mi, why do you believe Robz when he said he wasn't setting a trap with his IC comment but you don't believe me?

I never said I did or didn't

But that's why you're voting for me, correct?

[Eevee]

I got a "this wagon on me is totally for the wrong reasons!" vibe from scott's reaction to robz's idea. I'm okay with my vote there (see, at least I know who I'm voting for now).

[mail-mi]

Hey, mail-mi, why do you believe Robz when he said he wasn't setting a trap with his IC comment but you don't believe me?

I never said I did or didn't

But that's why you're voting for me, correct?

um no my reason is the wagon speed. see this post:

[Robz888]

I got a "this wagon on me is totally for the wrong reasons!" vibe from scott's reaction to robz's idea. I'm okay with my vote there (see, at least I know who I'm voting for now).

Agreed.

[scott_pilgrim]

I got a "this wagon on me is totally for the wrong reasons!" vibe from scott's reaction to robz's idea. I'm okay with my vote there (see, at least I know who I'm voting for now).

Well yeah, because "no reason" is very clearly the wrong reason to start a wagon on someone.  If a wagon on me existed for some reasons that someone stated, maybe I would try to argue against those reasons and have a rational discussion as to why someone should or shouldn't vote for me.  It's impossible to argue against "vote for someone for no reason".

And now that I've said that I feel obligated to at least acknowledge this:

Vote: scotty
It's not too random, he hasn't said anything accept "null" "claiming is bad" and "lets hop on raerae and say the incorrect lynch count."

In general I have trouble with D1, you basically just wait for someone to do something scummy and if no one does, you lynch randomly.  If you lurk too much people say it looks scummy, so you have to participate some, but there's really no other reason to other than to identify someone else's scummy actions.  If a bunch of perfectly rational people played mafia D1 would just involve everyone choosing a lynch target randomly and hopping on and off wagons until one caught on and rode to the lynch.  So I like to pretend I and the other people here are perfectly rational, so I play D1 like that.  Things change as people claim which is what makes mafia an interesting game, it would be awful if every day was like D1.  Okay I feel like I went on a really long tangent there but my point is just that I never have any idea what I'm supposed to say on D1, I feel obligated to post things because people say it looks scummy not to, so I tend to mostly just post theory talk and wait until a reasonable case can be made against someone.

[shraeye]

I got a "this wagon on me is totally for the wrong reasons!" vibe from scott's reaction to robz's idea. I'm okay with my vote there (see, at least I know who I'm voting for now).

I got a town vibe from his response

[mcmcsalot]

I got a "this wagon on me is totally for the wrong reasons!" vibe from scott's reaction to robz's idea. I'm okay with my vote there (see, at least I know who I'm voting for now).

Well yeah, because "no reason" is very clearly the wrong reason to start a wagon on someone.

this right here is enough to make me vote eevee

[yuma]

I want to random lynch someone.

Vote: Scotty

Robz the last time you proposed a random lynch like this we were scum together...

So for me to join you on this lynch in such a random way you are either going to have to show me why I should vote for scotty or show me why I should believe you are town and aren't starting up another random wagon as scum on a townie like in DW2

Yeah, that's fair. I don't really have a reason to go with Scotty though... he's just a true null person.

I do find his OMGUS interesting though.

I guess... but it is the sort of reaction that I think anyone would give if they were suddenly a lynch candidate for no other reason than "Robz said so," especially as I don't think scotty knows the history of this style of random lynch and its occasional success

[yuma]

I'm also okay with raerae getting lynched. Shraeye or PPS would be okay, too.

Then why not vote for them instead of scott?

I too think I could vote for either of them. I don't know if I would prefer one or the other or either over raerae...

[Eevee]

I think Scott's post had a hint of a "those reasons for voting me are bad" instead of "voting for me is bad". Generally, I think town shrugs stupid votes off but scum gets more worked up because "I worked so hard to not appear scummy and I succeeded, yet they are voting for me this is so unfair!".

[Robz888]

I'm also okay with raerae getting lynched. Shraeye or PPS would be okay, too.

Then why not vote for them instead of scott?

I too think I could vote for either of them. I don't know if I would prefer one or the other or either over raerae...

I mean... I don't know... I will pobably...

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.13:

raerae (3): yuma, AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi
yuma (1): shraeye
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae
mail-mi (1): A Drowned Kernel
scott_pilgrim (3): Eevee, Robz888, Axxle
Eevee (1): pingpongsam
Robz888 (1): scott_pilgrim

Not Voting (1): mcmcsalot

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I feel like Robz and Eevee are trying to make something out of nothing with scott and I don't get it. That said, I think Eevee's theory of scum generally reacting differently is valid.

PPE: Just saw that Axxle has a vote on scott too. I'll re-read that now.

[Robz888]

I think Eevee's theory might actually be generally wrong, but I don't know. It's different for every person probably.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Axxle's vote for scott:

Vote: scotty
It's not too random, he hasn't said anything accept "null" "claiming is bad" and "lets hop on raerae and say the incorrect lynch count."

Which is part is because of scott's vote for raerae:

I feel like the way that raerae set up FTTW was intentional, and in the absence of anything scummier than that thus far, vote: raerae.  I think that puts her at L-2.

Which is kinda consistent with his argument here:

If a bunch of perfectly rational people played mafia D1 would just involve everyone choosing a lynch target randomly and hopping on and off wagons until one caught on and rode to the lynch.  So I like to pretend I and the other people here are perfectly rational, so I play D1 like that.

Scott's vote on raerae wasn't exactly random, but here he says he doesn't have a problem with a random lynch on D1... unless it's him of course.

[scott_pilgrim]

Scott's vote on raerae wasn't exactly random, but here he says he doesn't have a problem with a random lynch on D1... unless it's him of course.

Well yes in theory, but in practice people do make mistakes, and they do things that make them look scummy.  In order to actually be justified in voting randomly among all people, you have to have completely null reads on everyone.  If that's what Robz is actually saying, then I am okay with him voting for me (though null reads on everyone is generally considered to be scummy, but I don't have much of a problem with it D1), but I was under the impression that that's not where he was coming from.

[raerae]

Hey, mail-mi, why do you believe Robz when he said he wasn't setting a trap with his IC comment but you don't believe me?

I never said I did or didn't

But that's why you're voting for me, correct?

um no my reason is the wagon speed. see this post:

I forgot we've already gone 'round on this.  Thanks for the requote.  You still think this is "all" we've got today?  What do you think of everybody else?

[A Drowned Kernel]

I think Robz's "random lynch" thing was mostly to try and get reactions on people. SP's reaction was pretty predictable, and probably not what he was actually spending a lot of time looking at. Beyond that I couldn't say, because I'm not Robz.

FTTW, do you still like your vote on raerae?

[yuma]

I forgot we've already gone 'round on this.  Thanks for the requote.  You still think this is "all" we've got today?  What do you think of everybody else?

What do you think of everybody else? I know you generally don't make "reads lists" but really the only person I feel you have been vocal about as being town or scum is Andrew.

[Robz888]

I have like zero worthwhile thoughts about this game. When do we have to lynch? I'll lynch whoever.

[yuma]

I have like zero worthwhile thoughts about this game. When do we have to lynch? I'll lynch whoever.

We still have a while, although getting a lynch before the weekend is probably better than trying to get one over the weekend...

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

Maybe a nice re-read might jar your thoughts to find something worthwhile? Want to focus on shraeye and PPS? I have been wanting to, but haven't been able to find the time now that I am back on at work...

[Robz888]

So much work though....................

[AndrewisFTTW]

FTTW, do you still like your vote on raerae?

Yeah, it's all I got right now.

[shraeye]

I have like zero worthwhile thoughts about this game. When do we have to lynch? I'll lynch whoever.

We still have a while, although getting a lynch before the weekend is probably better than trying to get one over the weekend...

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

Maybe a nice re-read might jar your thoughts to find something worthwhile? Want to focus on shraeye and PPS? I have been wanting to, but haven't been able to find the time now that I am back on at work...

Continuing to publicly state that "raerae is scum" with his vote, while simultaneously steering other voters towards different options.

[mcmcsalot]

I've got some worthwhile thought.

Won't lynch; axxle, shraeye, Scott, Yuma, robz, mail-mi
Would lynch; pps, Andrew, ADK
Want to lynch; eevee, raerae

With that vote: raerae

[mail-mi]

Hey, mail-mi, why do you believe Robz when he said he wasn't setting a trap with his IC comment but you don't believe me?

I never said I did or didn't

But that's why you're voting for me, correct?

um no my reason is the wagon speed. see this post:

I forgot we've already gone 'round on this.  Thanks for the requote.  You still think this is "all" we've got today?  What do you think of everybody else?

Well lets see... Scott lynch and yuma lynch are unappealing because yumas helpful and scotty judt isnt that scummy. I could vote for eevee, but I prefer you or shraeye.

[Eevee]

why is not scotty not scummy/why am I?

[mail-mi]

why is not scotty not scummy/why am I?

Youre not scummy for anything specific, just thati wouldn't oppose your lynch.  Scotty is more of a town feeling.

[AndrewisFTTW]

why is not scotty not scummy/why am I?

Youre not scummy for anything specific, just thati wouldn't oppose your lynch.  Scotty is more of a town feeling.

Is that just because Eevee has been more active? I've heard arguments saying both being active and inactive are scummy.

[shraeye]

yeah, in general I don't think activity level is very indicative of alignment.  Sometimes the argument can be made that somebody was 'strategically gone' during a crucial portion of debate.  But sometimes people are just IRL-busy then, and it's a baseless argument.

[pingpongsam]

Activity has been relatively high across the board considering how slow some other games have moved. The only person who sticks out as lurking to me is Axxle.

[pingpongsam]

And then I checked and even Axxle is posting fairly regularly.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.14:

raerae (4): yuma, AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi, mcmcsalot
yuma (1): shraeye
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae
mail-mi (1): A Drowned Kernel
scott_pilgrim (3): Eevee, Robz888, Axxle
Eevee (1): pingpongsam
Robz888 (1): scott_pilgrim

Not Voting (0):

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

[pingpongsam]

Traveling home for double baby showers so will be VLA from 2/28-5/3

then

Traveling out of state for work and will be VLA 5/5-5/7.

Will be keeping up with the goings on in my game but will likely have drastically reduced capacity to contribute although I hope to be able to at least post once a day or more.

[Robz888]

We are all over the place.

[Axxle]

Traveling home for double baby showers so will be VLA from 2/28-5/3

then

Traveling out of state for work and will be VLA 5/5-5/7.

Will be keeping up with the goings on in my game but will likely have drastically reduced capacity to contribute although I hope to be able to at least post once a day or more.

Till May? Is that right?

[pingpongsam]

Haha, no, I'm losing my mind. That would be more like 2/28-3/3 then 3/5-3/7.

[yuma]

I have like zero worthwhile thoughts about this game. When do we have to lynch? I'll lynch whoever.

We still have a while, although getting a lynch before the weekend is probably better than trying to get one over the weekend...

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

Maybe a nice re-read might jar your thoughts to find something worthwhile? Want to focus on shraeye and PPS? I have been wanting to, but haven't been able to find the time now that I am back on at work...

Continuing to publicly state that "raerae is scum" with his vote, while simultaneously steering other voters towards different options.

you are ridiculous. I encourage others to play the game and you vote for me. You do nothing but make snide comments about me encouraging others to scum hunt that do nothing but discredit me and discourage people from scum hunting

vote: shraeye

Robz vote for shraeye

[yuma]

For crying out loud, you never even responded to my comments on what you said about me initially? Did you read it? Did you have thoughts about it? Or is your whole goal to just dissuade people from trusting me and my reads?

[ashersky]

While the party-goers and evil-doers kept trying to sort out the good from the bad, a boy and a girl walked up to the smashed in door.  The boy had on a cool blue and white trucker hat with a pine tree on it; the girl wore a technicolor sweater that actually lit up.  They looked at each other with confusion.

The girl said to the boy, "uhhhh...was this in that book you found?"  The boy replied with a shake of his head.  "Definitely not."

They quietly backed out of the tree house the way they entered, no one the wiser.

Vote Count 1.15:

raerae (3): AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi, mcmcsalot
yuma (1): shraeye
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae
mail-mi (1): A Drowned Kernel
scott_pilgrim (3): Eevee, Robz888, Axxle
Eevee (1): pingpongsam
Robz888 (1): scott_pilgrim
shraeye (1): yuma

Not Voting (0):

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

[Robz888]

Vote: shraeye

[Axxle]

Is it safe to DAMA?

DAMA

[Axxle]

Hey Axxle, what are your thoughts on yuma this game?

[Axxle]

Well Axxle, I'm glad you asked.  Yuma is being loud and all over the place.  As someone else mentioned who I don't remember at the moment he does seem to be avoiding the raerae wagon. If raerae flips scum it's a very real possibility that yuma's her partner. That said I don't think raerae's scum and yuma's just trying to avoid being on the mislynch wagon.

wait...

Vote: yuma

That seems most likely.

[Axxle]

Thanks for your quick response Axxle, I was worried that you would have stopped your DAMA since to one else posited questions.

[Axxle]

No problem Axxle, I might stop taking questions now though since passing out seems like a more fun thing to do at the moment.

[Axxle]

No worries, no more questions from me.

[pingpongsam]

Well Axxle, I'm glad you asked.  Yuma is being loud and all over the place.  As someone else mentioned who I don't remember at the moment he does seem to be avoiding the raerae wagon. If raerae flips scum it's a very real possibility that yuma's her partner. That said I don't think raerae's scum and yuma's just trying to avoid being on the mislynch wagon.

wait...

Vote: yuma

That seems most likely.

If that is the case and it does seem likely then it naturally follows that Robz is yuma's partner.

Vote: yuma

[AndrewisFTTW]

Well Axxle, I'm glad you asked.  Yuma is being loud and all over the place.  As someone else mentioned who I don't remember at the moment he does seem to be avoiding the raerae wagon. If raerae flips scum it's a very real possibility that yuma's her partner. That said I don't think raerae's scum and yuma's just trying to avoid being on the mislynch wagon.

wait...

Vote: yuma

That seems most likely.

If that is the case and it does seem likely then it naturally follows that Robz is yuma's partner.

Vote: yuma

I had that thought but eh.... seems too obvious.

[pingpongsam]

Well Axxle, I'm glad you asked.  Yuma is being loud and all over the place.  As someone else mentioned who I don't remember at the moment he does seem to be avoiding the raerae wagon. If raerae flips scum it's a very real possibility that yuma's her partner. That said I don't think raerae's scum and yuma's just trying to avoid being on the mislynch wagon.

wait...

Vote: yuma

That seems most likely.

If that is the case and it does seem likely then it naturally follows that Robz is yuma's partner.

Vote: yuma

I had that thought but eh.... seems too obvious.

There are those games where it was too obvious until it was too late.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Well Axxle, I'm glad you asked.  Yuma is being loud and all over the place.  As someone else mentioned who I don't remember at the moment he does seem to be avoiding the raerae wagon. If raerae flips scum it's a very real possibility that yuma's her partner. That said I don't think raerae's scum and yuma's just trying to avoid being on the mislynch wagon.

wait...

Vote: yuma

That seems most likely.

If that is the case and it does seem likely then it naturally follows that Robz is yuma's partner.

Vote: yuma

I had that thought but eh.... seems too obvious.

There are those games where it was too obvious until it was too late.

Yeah... let me do a re-read of yuma.

[Robz888]

Yuma is not scum (probably) and he's a bad lynch (obviously).

[Axxle]

Well Axxle, I'm glad you asked.  Yuma is being loud and all over the place.  As someone else mentioned who I don't remember at the moment he does seem to be avoiding the raerae wagon. If raerae flips scum it's a very real possibility that yuma's her partner. That said I don't think raerae's scum and yuma's just trying to avoid being on the mislynch wagon.

wait...

Vote: yuma

That seems most likely.

If that is the case and it does seem likely then it naturally follows that Robz is yuma's partner.

No it does not.

[pingpongsam]

Well Axxle, I'm glad you asked.  Yuma is being loud and all over the place.  As someone else mentioned who I don't remember at the moment he does seem to be avoiding the raerae wagon. If raerae flips scum it's a very real possibility that yuma's her partner. That said I don't think raerae's scum and yuma's just trying to avoid being on the mislynch wagon.

wait...

Vote: yuma

That seems most likely.

If that is the case and it does seem likely then it naturally follows that Robz is yuma's partner.

No it does not.

Why not? I see evidence of clear teaming.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Why do you guys have votes on shraeye anyway?

[shraeye]

I see teaming too, but mostly I think it's because Robz is sure yuma is town.  I think Robz is wrong.

[mcmcsalot]

Aww I missed the DAMA, axxle do you watch a lot of adventure time?

[Robz888]

I see teaming too, but mostly I think it's because Robz is sure yuma is town.  I think Robz is wrong.

Well, ask me again tomorrow.

I don't know what DAMA means, by the way.

[mcmcsalot]

I see teaming too, but mostly I think it's because Robz is sure yuma is town.  I think Robz is wrong.

I think Yuma has been loud regardless of alignment recently, there is that whole thing called baby stress that I'm guessing has caused us too see an ever so slightly less calm and collected Yuma(no offense meant) so I think it's not indicative of his alignment.

Ppe: drunk ask me anything.

[mcmcsalot]

Anyone wanna make a case for pps to be town I get hugely summy vibes from his overall lack of sense making(to me)

[Axxle]

Aww I missed the DAMA, axxle do you watch a lot of adventure time?

I have seen every episode.

This is my absolute favorite cosplay that I've seen (it was at SDCC)

[Axxle]

Aww I missed the DAMA, axxle do you watch a lot of adventure time?

I have seen every episode.

I've only read one of the comics though, I should find more.

[mcmcsalot]

Darn you have got rid of my town read, you nullified a prior post that I thought made you town.

[Axxle]

Darn you have got rid of my town read, you nullified a prior post that I thought made you town.

You thought I wasn't familiar with Adventure Time?  Did you miss this post?

A recent Adventure Time episode did have a cranky gumball machine...

[mcmcsalot]

Darn you have got rid of my town read, you nullified a prior post that I thought made you town.

You thought I wasn't familiar with Adventure Time?  Did you miss this post?

A recent Adventure Time episode did have a cranky gumball machine...

Yes I missed that.

[raerae]

I've got some worthwhile thought.

Won't lynch; axxle, shraeye, Scott, Yuma, robz, mail-mi
Would lynch; pps, Andrew, ADK
Want to lynch; eevee, raerae

With that vote: raerae

Why not the fluff master?

[raerae]

I forgot we've already gone 'round on this.  Thanks for the requote.  You still think this is "all" we've got today?  What do you think of everybody else?

What do you think of everybody else? I know you generally don't make "reads lists" but really the only person I feel you have been vocal about as being town or scum is Andrew.

Wrong. I usually save them for the end of the day but I don't anticipate being super active this weekend so now is as good a time as any.

1.  Eevee - not much that I recall from the fluffy one except that he left his vote on me that one time after saying he didn't think I was scum, seems sloppy if he's a bad dude so default to townish?
2.  scott_pilgrim - don't remember anything other than other people voting for him
3.  Robz888 - feels like town robz, I feel like scum robz would be louder and more direction-y
4.  mail-mi - seems different than I remember, less sheepy, more forward, not sure if that's scum mail-mi or just more experienced mail-mi
5.  yuma - same as shraeye, the longer he's around the more dangerous he is to the opposite team
6.  mcmcsalot - it's been awhile but I see town mcmc here
7.  A Drowned Kernel - seems sort of flip-floppy so some suspicion but nothing vote-worthy
8.  pingpongsam - he's talked a lot but not said anything, I could see scum here
9.  raerae - town to the max
10. AndrewisFTTW - I still say he's been coached, my vote isn't moving
11. shraeye - can't read him but the longer he's alive the less I trust him
12. Axxle - been active and somewhat pushing conversation along, sort of townie

[Axxle]

10. AndrewisFTTW - I still say he's been coached, my vote isn't moving

How many players in the history of f.ds have been coached like how you're saying he was?

[AndrewisFTTW]

Even if I was "coached" (which I wasn't), what does that have to do with me being scum? I somewhat (not really) follow along with Super Mario mafia and asked a couple questions in the speccy QT that have nothing to do with what had been covered here so far. Yuma can attest to that, for what it's worth.

Anyway, likewise my vote isn't going anywhere for right now. Raerae seems the scummiest out of everyone right now and most people agree, even if they aren't showing it with their vote.

[raerae]

10. AndrewisFTTW - I still say he's been coached, my vote isn't moving

How many players in the history of f.ds have been coached like how you're saying he was?

That's a stupid and unanswerable question and you know it.  What do you hope to gain from that?  You want a number?  You want me to go back through all the 30+ scum QTs and see if scum ever gave their partners tips on how to act and how to respond to thing? 

[raerae]

Even if I was "coached" (which I wasn't), what does that have to do with me being scum? I somewhat (not really) follow along with Super Mario mafia and asked a couple questions in the speccy QT that have nothing to do with what had been covered here so far. Yuma can attest to that, for what it's worth.

Anyway, likewise my vote isn't going anywhere for right now. Raerae seems the scummiest out of everyone right now and most people agree, even if they aren't showing it with their vote.

Who's going to tell you to play up the newbie thing if you aren't scum?  That's what it has to do with you being scum.  And, can you remind me, why I am scum other than the fact that I think you're scum?

(Also, on-going game rule, you probably don't want to say too much more on that even if you're just in the speccy.)

[Axxle]

10. AndrewisFTTW - I still say he's been coached, my vote isn't moving

How many players in the history of f.ds have been coached like how you're saying he was?

That's a stupid and unanswerable question and you know it.  What do you hope to gain from that?  You want a number?  You want me to go back through all the 30+ scum QTs and see if scum ever gave their partners tips on how to act and how to respond to thing?

I just want a number greater than zero.  I just don't think this is something scum does.

[AndrewisFTTW]

quote author=raerae link=topic=10187.msg349348#msg349348 date=1393633108]

Even if I was "coached" (which I wasn't), what does that have to do with me being scum? I somewhat (not really) follow along with Super Mario mafia and asked a couple questions in the speccy QT that have nothing to do with what had been covered here so far. Yuma can attest to that, for what it's worth.

Anyway, likewise my vote isn't going anywhere for right now. Raerae seems the scummiest out of everyone right now and most people agree, even if they aren't showing it with their vote.

Who's going to tell you to play up the newbie thing if you aren't scum?  That's what it has to do with you being scum.  And, can you remind me, why I am scum other than the fact that I think you're scum?

(Also, on-going game rule, you probably don't want to say too much more on that even if you're just in the speccy.)
[/quote]

Ok first of all I'm not playing anything up. I don't think i've even said anything newbie-ish in quite a while. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

What's scummy about you is how you asked a loaded question and had your mind made up on how you would vote despite the answer. I don't care that you voted for me. I was actually one of last people to vote for you.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm sorry, typing on my phone is not ideal but it's what I'm working with for a while.

[yuma]

Well Axxle, I'm glad you asked.  Yuma is being loud and all over the place.  As someone else mentioned who I don't remember at the moment he does seem to be avoiding the raerae wagon. If raerae flips scum it's a very real possibility that yuma's her partner. That said I don't think raerae's scum and yuma's just trying to avoid being on the mislynch wagon.

wait...

Vote: yuma

That seems most likely.

Avoiding the raerae wagon?

You mean the wagon that I basically built the case on that for some bizarre reason has completely stalled and is going no where?

Maybe you should go back and pay more attention before you vote for someone. I don't care if you are drunk when you do.

But more importantly is that I am seeing that shraeye himself didn't contradict Axxle on this false premise (as it was shraeye putting forward the supposition about me that Axxle erroneously attributed his vote to). This indicates to me that shraeye doesn't care why people vote for me as long as they do... Something I think scum would think far more than town as scum only wants to get someone lynched that they know to be town. Town is looking for scum, make sure who they are voting for is in fact scum and wants to figure out the alignment of others at the same time...

[yuma]

Yeah... let me do a re-read of yuma.

Did you ever do this?

[yuma]

I think Yuma has been loud regardless of alignment recently, there is that whole thing called baby stress that I'm guessing has caused us too see an ever so slightly less calm and collected Yuma(no offense meant) so I think it's not indicative of his alignment.

No offense taken. I think it has more to do with the fact that I just have less time to be online in these games, so when I am online I am very direct and forward in my questions and probing.

I expect people to respond to my queries (in a timely manner of course) and if they don't I am going to get after them because it might be another 24 hours until I get back online...

speaking of which... shraeye you have pretty much ignored everything I have asked you to elaborate on...

[yuma]

Anyone wanna make a case for pps to be town I get hugely summy vibes from his overall lack of sense making(to me)

You won't get one from me. I agree with his lack of sense, opportunistic voting and for apparently calling out scum teams day1? (the last part isn't so much a scumtell as town does it all the time, but an annoyance tell because town does it to their detriment all the time)

[yuma]

I forgot we've already gone 'round on this.  Thanks for the requote.  You still think this is "all" we've got today?  What do you think of everybody else?

What do you think of everybody else? I know you generally don't make "reads lists" but really the only person I feel you have been vocal about as being town or scum is Andrew.

Wrong. I usually save them for the end of the day but I don't anticipate being super active this weekend so now is as good a time as any.

Yes. Sorry, I intended my statement to read "generally don't make "reads lists" until the end of day. As it is getting to the end of day I thought it might be good for you to provide one since you were asking it of other players...

As to your reads you seem to have 2 scum reads: Andrew (who by the way isn't getting lynch. Sorry friend... he just isn't. Too many people don't consider what you are seeing to be worthwhile enough to lynch a new, meta-lacking player. So if are town and if you want your vote to be helpful today I strongly suggest you move it...) and PPS.

That is kinda low in terms of scum reads, don't you think?

[yuma]

10. AndrewisFTTW - I still say he's been coached, my vote isn't moving

How many players in the history of f.ds have been coached like how you're saying he was?

I will say that having just come from a game with a new player as scum (DW2) there was a fair amount of "coaching" going on. Robz and I were Ichimaru's partners. And as a result there were some inconsistencies in his play... Nothing noticeable until late in the game, but I certainly noticed them as his partner.

For example: we encouraged him to ask questions as a way to up his posting... as a result he asked for definitions on stuff and then a few posts later used definitions to other more complex mafia terms...

So I am not saying that what raerae is calling out is going on here, but coaching I think does happen and could be something worth looking into once we have more data to analyze and a better idea of what Andrew's meta actually is.

[AndrewisFTTW]

10. AndrewisFTTW - I still say he's been coached, my vote isn't moving

How many players in the history of f.ds have been coached like how you're saying he was?

I will say that having just come from a game with a new player as scum (DW2) there was a fair amount of "coaching" going on. Robz and I were Ichimaru's partners. And as a result there were some inconsistencies in his play... Nothing noticeable until late in the game, but I certainly noticed them as his partner.

For example: we encouraged him to ask questions as a way to up his posting... as a result he asked for definitions on stuff and then a few posts later used definitions to other more complex mafia terms...

So I am not saying that what raerae is calling out is going on here, but coaching I think does happen and could be something worth looking into once we have more data to analyze and a better idea of what Andrew's meta actually is.

Word. I'm looking up a lot of stuff on wiki.mafiascum.net which might be why I'm not really asking a lot of questions anymore, and it's probably what I should've been doing in the first place.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Yeah... let me do a re-read of yuma.

Did you ever do this?

Nope, thanks for reminding me!

[raerae]

I forgot we've already gone 'round on this.  Thanks for the requote.  You still think this is "all" we've got today?  What do you think of everybody else?

What do you think of everybody else? I know you generally don't make "reads lists" but really the only person I feel you have been vocal about as being town or scum is Andrew.

Wrong. I usually save them for the end of the day but I don't anticipate being super active this weekend so now is as good a time as any.

Yes. Sorry, I intended my statement to read "generally don't make "reads lists" until the end of day. As it is getting to the end of day I thought it might be good for you to provide one since you were asking it of other players...

As to your reads you seem to have 2 scum reads: Andrew (who by the way isn't getting lynch. Sorry friend... he just isn't. Too many people don't consider what you are seeing to be worthwhile enough to lynch a new, meta-lacking player. So if are town and if you want your vote to be helpful today I strongly suggest you move it...) and PPS.

That is kinda low in terms of scum reads, don't you think?

Oh, you're right.  I should probably just hope on whatever bandwagon forms next and plunk my vote there. 

And no, I don't think it's low.  There's plenty of suspicious characters floating around but those are the two most obvious picks.  I'm not writing anything in stone on D1.

[shraeye]

But more importantly is that I am seeing that shraeye himself didn't contradict Axxle on this false premise (as it was shraeye putting forward the supposition about me that Axxle erroneously attributed his vote to). This indicates to me that shraeye doesn't care why people vote for me as long as they do...

Something I think scum would think far more than town as scum only wants to get someone lynched that they know to be town. Town is looking for scum, make sure who they are voting for is in fact scum and wants to figure out the alignment of others at the same time...

I'm fine with Axxle voting for scum for false premise.  I've got no need to correct him.  In fact, the reason I'm voting for you is that you felt the need to correct false info that PPS was saying about raerae, which may have caused people to vote raerae, despite the fact that you "say" that raerae is scum and that you have no idea why her wagon is bizarrely fizzling.

This just reinforced my vote on you. Axxle called you out on false premises; if I correct him, I'm hypocritical.  If I don't correct him, you try to peg me for scum because "scum would do that more often than town, because they're just looking for a lynch." A classic no-win scenario, as you've painted it.  However, the second case has a false conclusion, and people who know my meta should understand that.  This is definitely something town-shraeye does.  I'm a self-acknowledged case-inflater.  If I think somebody is scum, I will do absolutely everything I can to get them lynched.  And if somebody is voting for scum for the wrong pretenses, I'm absolutely fine with that.

[raerae]

What's scummy about you is how you asked a loaded question and had your mind made up on how you would vote despite the answer. I don't care that you voted for me. I was actually one of last people to vote for you.

Since everybody seems to have forgotten what actually happened.  Here's my reasoning and explanation after mcmc questioned what wouldn't have caused a vote.   Bolding is new.

Vote: Andrew

So here's the deal, I wanted that question answered before I finalized this because on the reread I noticed that he sounded both knowledgeable and like a super-newbie.  Ya know, "I don't know what's going on?  Is this a thing?  What about this other complicated thing that isn't normal for a newbie to know about?"  It feels like he was fed info prior to the game but then also told to play up his newbie status.  I wanted to hear what he'd have to say re: shraeye first to see if he'd actually have an opinion when pressed or if he'd just talk around an answer.  Personally, I think the thing on shraeye is nonsense and I'm shocked it gained as much traction as it did.

vote: raerae

What answer could he have given that you would not have replied the same way?
From my perspective you asked him a question and afterwards voted him for a reason unrelated to his answer.

No, I asked him that question to see if he would actually take a stance on something as he'd been pretty wishy-washy for the rest of the game.  I felt my question was pointed and didn't leave room for him to waffle, meaning he would have to give an opinion, a solid thought.  He didn't have one so it's my belief he's waiting for somebody else's reaction before he lays down his own.  It was something I got a hint at on the reread but I wanted to test my hypothesis before trying to throw a nail in that coffin.  It isn't much but it's all I got.  I think he was coached to play up his newbie status and not take strong stances.  He messed that up when he mentioned scum drawing suspicion on themselves early and tried to backpedal out of that.  It very nearly worked when Yuma gave him that "newbie know stuff too!" pass but I'm not buying it.  He was coached, he slipped up, and I'm leaving my vote where it is.

And here's FTTW's response for reference.

Sure. I did feel a little pressured and it seemed like the question was posed in an accusatory manner. However, this is the internet and I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I have no facial expression to go on and certain sentences can seem like they're saying more than they actually are. That is to say things can be quite easily misinterpreted and skewed. Ok now I'm rambling.

Sorry for playing devil's advocate but the main thing I felt when I first read that was "why am I being asked this? I thought I was clear what I was trying to learn." It seemed more like prodding and unnecessary interrogation than a serious curiosity. Of course, that's what this game is about right?

[shraeye]

speaking of which... shraeye you have pretty much ignored everything I have asked you to elaborate on...

I looked at what you were "confused" about (or at least one post where you claimed to be confused).  It still looks pretty straightforward to me.  I'll elaborate when I feel I need to.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Sure. I did feel a little pressured and it seemed like the question was posed in an accusatory manner. However, this is the internet and I tend to give people the benefit of the doubt. I have no facial expression to go on and certain sentences can seem like they're saying more than they actually are. That is to say things can be quite easily misinterpreted and skewed. Ok now I'm rambling.

Sorry for playing devil's advocate but the main thing I felt when I first read that was "why am I being asked this? I thought I was clear what I was trying to learn." It seemed more like prodding and unnecessary interrogation than a serious curiosity. Of course, that's what this game is about right?

So, is shraeye scum or not?

Am I supposed to know the answer to that? Sure.

vote: shraeye

Oh and don't forget this part.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Notice that you didn't vote for me until you asked me if shraeye was scum or not. I gave you a newbie indirect answer and a more firm direct answer and it didn't matter anyway. I also don't like the way you handled almost being lynched and this clear stretching the truth of what actually happy isn't so great either.

[AndrewisFTTW]

"What actually happened" is what I meant, of course.

[AndrewisFTTW]

Well Axxle, I'm glad you asked.  Yuma is being loud and all over the place.  As someone else mentioned who I don't remember at the moment he does seem to be avoiding the raerae wagon. If raerae flips scum it's a very real possibility that yuma's her partner. That said I don't think raerae's scum and yuma's just trying to avoid being on the mislynch wagon.

wait...

Vote: yuma

That seems most likely.

Avoiding the raerae wagon?

You mean the wagon that I basically built the case on that for some bizarre reason has completely stalled and is going no where?

Maybe you should go back and pay more attention before you vote for someone. I don't care if you are drunk when you do.

But more importantly is that I am seeing that shraeye himself didn't contradict Axxle on this false premise (as it was shraeye putting forward the supposition about me that Axxle erroneously attributed his vote to). This indicates to me that shraeye doesn't care why people vote for me as long as they do... Something I think scum would think far more than town as scum only wants to get someone lynched that they know to be town. Town is looking for scum, make sure who they are voting for is in fact scum and wants to figure out the alignment of others at the same time...

Yes.

[Axxle]

We have 2 days

[yuma]

Oh, you're right.  I should probably just hope on whatever bandwagon forms next and plunk my vote there. 

Yep that is exactly what I said...

Now that we have gotten our passive aggressive sarcasm out of the way.... Seriously though. Look at it this way. There are 3 mafia to 10 town. It takes 7 to lynch. If you are town and if you are just keeping your vote on Andrew then town has one less vote to utilize in finding scum. I know you think that Andrew is scum. He might be, he might not be. But the fact of the matter is that he isn't getting lynched today... So your vote is in effect "not voting" for purposes of finding a lynch. This is all stuff you already know, so I dont' even know why I am saying it.... but I will say it anyways... And no I am not saying just plunk your vote down onto a wagon. But analyze the wagons see who you find the most likely to be scum and usefully and effectively place your vote on someone. I am pretty sure you already knew that I was effectively saying this above, but here it is again spelled out for you.

[yuma]

I'm fine with Axxle voting for scum for false premise.  I've got no need to correct him.  In fact, the reason I'm voting for you is that you felt the need to correct false info that PPS was saying about raerae, which may have caused people to vote raerae, despite the fact that you "say" that raerae is scum and that you have no idea why her wagon is bizarrely fizzling.

This just reinforced my vote on you. Axxle called you out on false premises; if I correct him, I'm hypocritical.  If I don't correct him, you try to peg me for scum because "scum would do that more often than town, because they're just looking for a lynch." A classic no-win scenario, as you've painted it.  However, the second case has a false conclusion, and people who know my meta should understand that.  This is definitely something town-shraeye does.  I'm a self-acknowledged case-inflater.  If I think somebody is scum, I will do absolutely everything I can to get them lynched.  And if somebody is voting for scum for the wrong pretenses, I'm absolutely fine with that.

Then it appears that you are voting for me for playing a different style then you.... I will obviously say that it is a superior style for town. Making sure I am on the right--or as right as you can get with limited information--wagon, probing players to get reads out and doing re-reads arguing against bad reasoning or anything else. Whereas it appears you just want to get me lynched to the detriment of town. But hey I am biased...

[yuma]

speaking of which... shraeye you have pretty much ignored everything I have asked you to elaborate on...

I looked at what you were "confused" about (or at least one post where you claimed to be confused).  It still looks pretty straightforward to me.  I'll elaborate when I feel I need to.

Thanks for being so helpful, considerate and nice to play with.

(I guess I wasn't done with the passive aggressive sarcasm after all)

[Axxle]

unvote

[yuma]

We have 2 days

Yep....

7.  Players may request a prod after 24 hours without a post.

Prod Request on: Eevee, scott, Robz, ADK, PPS, mail-mi and mcmc all haven't posted in the last 24 hours. Some are at or above 48 hours...

[yuma]

although both PPS and Eevee have announced VLA so nevermind there

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm here, I'll do a reread and give a reads list before I go to bed tonight.

[Eevee]

fwiw I've been reading and like where my vote is.

[scott_pilgrim]

I'm here.  I think I like the raerae lynch (I'm assuming no one else wants to vote Robz yet since no one has done so for several days).  I don't like the way she's been acting but I also think we get some information from her flip.  vote: raerae I think that's L-3 but I was wrong about that last time so someone else should check before getting close to a lynch.

[Eevee]

I oppose the raerae lynch.

[Robz888]

I oppose the raerae lynch.

Why do you oppose the raerae lynch?

[A Drowned Kernel]

All right, this is what I got from a reread:

eevee- Town? Ish? Wouldn't vote for him right now. I don't see scum in the vote-forgetting, I think scum is more careful than that.
scott- Scummy. I don't like how he jumped on raerae wagon and I'm seeing his reaction to the randomlynch as scummy, town would be more likely to just shrug it off as joke I think.
robz- Random lynch thing seems scummy but also believable from what I know of Robz. Null.
mail-mi- VLA means he hasn't posted much. He did kind of jump of the shraeye wagon though. Don't have a good guess on him.
yuma- Town-ish. Makes a lot of good analysis but he could be active scum trying to control the flow of the game. Wait and see I guess.
mc- Generally scummy as well as lurky. He votes for raerae, unvotes, then criticizes/calls other people scummy for unvoting. There's this whole "trying to push a mislynch without actually voting on it" thing that I'm reading. I know I'm new at this but is that a thing scum does?
pps- Buddying with shraeye? Maybe they're masons. Null I guess.
raerae- Her interaction with FTTW still looks like scumhunting town to me, as well as her response.
fttw- Mostly just a newbie townie vibe, trying to figure out what's going on.
shraeye- Buddying with pps, again not too sure on alignment. Tunneling on yuma a little.
axxle- Switches votes a lot early on but seems like he's scumhunting. Slight town I guess.

At this point I guess I'd vote for mc or scott. I dislike the idea of jumping on a wagon that started with Robz saying "let's vote someone random" but I do feel he's scummy, and I suppose I should resign myself to not perfectly agreeing with everyone's vote.

Vote: Scott

[mcmcsalot]

I;m here dunno what you want from me

[Teproc]

Vote Count 1.16:

raerae (3): AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi, mcmcsalot
yuma (2): shraeye, pingpongsam
shraeye (2): yuma, Robz888
scott_pilgrim (2): Eevee, A Drowned Kernel
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae
Robz888 (1): scott_pilgrim

Not Voting (0):

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

[Teproc]

Vote Count 1.16b:

raerae (3): AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi, mcmcsalot
yuma (2): shraeye, pingpongsam
shraeye (2): yuma, Robz888
scott_pilgrim (2): Eevee, A Drowned Kernel
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae
Robz888 (1): scott_pilgrim

Not Voting (1): Axxle

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

[mail-mi]

We have 2 days

Yep....

7.  Players may request a prod after 24 hours without a post.

Prod Request on: Eevee, scott, Robz, ADK, PPS, mail-mi and mcmc all haven't posted in the last 24 hours. Some are at or above 48 hours...

Vla. Sprry, been busy.

[pingpongsam]

Caught up early yesterday and again today. Will likely be gone all day but so far still standing firm on my vote. Not seeing anything new to convince me otherwise. Quite surprised there hasn't been a push for a wagon on me to date. I was kind of provoking one to see who would join it. While I have some suspicions about who may be scum I am largely null on everyone. Probably the only actual townish read I have is Axxle and I tend to doubly suspect my D1 Town reads.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.17:

raerae (3): AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi, mcmcsalot
yuma (2): shraeye, pingpongsam
shraeye (2): yuma, Robz888
scott_pilgrim (2): Eevee, A Drowned Kernel
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae
Robz888 (1): scott_pilgrim

Not Voting (1): Axxle

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

That is in 24 hours.

[scott_pilgrim]

I'm here.  I think I like the raerae lynch (I'm assuming no one else wants to vote Robz yet since no one has done so for several days).  I don't like the way she's been acting but I also think we get some information from her flip.  vote: raerae I think that's L-3 but I was wrong about that last time so someone else should check before getting close to a lynch.

Did this not count for some reason?  Sorry if the vote was hard to see.

vote: raerae

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.18:

raerae (4): AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, scott_pilgrim
yuma (2): shraeye, pingpongsam
shraeye (2): yuma, Robz888
scott_pilgrim (2): Eevee, A Drowned Kernel
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae

Not Voting (1): Axxle

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

That is in less than 24 hours.

[raerae]

Notice that you didn't vote for me until you asked me if shraeye was scum or not. I gave you a newbie indirect answer and a more firm direct answer and it didn't matter anyway. I also don't like the way you handled almost being lynched and this clear stretching the truth of what actually happy isn't so great either.

You're trying to tell me you're shraeye vote wasn't sarcastic?  Really?

[raerae]

Notice that you didn't vote for me until you asked me if shraeye was scum or not. I gave you a newbie indirect answer and a more firm direct answer and it didn't matter anyway. I also don't like the way you handled almost being lynched and this clear stretching the truth of what actually happy isn't so great either.

Sorry, forgot to address the rest of this in that last post.  What do you mean you didn't lie how I "handled" that near lynch?  And how I am I stretching the truth?  I quoted everything I'm referring to, what is being stretched?

[raerae]

Oh, you're right.  I should probably just hope on whatever bandwagon forms next and plunk my vote there. 

Yep that is exactly what I said...

Now that we have gotten our passive aggressive sarcasm out of the way.... Seriously though. Look at it this way. There are 3 mafia to 10 town. It takes 7 to lynch. If you are town and if you are just keeping your vote on Andrew then town has one less vote to utilize in finding scum. I know you think that Andrew is scum. He might be, he might not be. But the fact of the matter is that he isn't getting lynched today... So your vote is in effect "not voting" for purposes of finding a lynch. This is all stuff you already know, so I dont' even know why I am saying it.... but I will say it anyways... And no I am not saying just plunk your vote down onto a wagon. But analyze the wagons see who you find the most likely to be scum and usefully and effectively place your vote on someone. I am pretty sure you already knew that I was effectively saying this above, but here it is again spelled out for you.

And I'm pretty sure you know me and you know I won't and don't change my vote just because somebody tells me my preferred lynch isn't going through.  I've given my list of reads and will only vote for the people I think are scum. 

[shraeye]

sooo, like...just andrew?

[raerae]

I'm here.  I think I like the raerae lynch (I'm assuming no one else wants to vote Robz yet since no one has done so for several days).  I don't like the way she's been acting but I also think we get some information from her flip.  vote: raerae I think that's L-3 but I was wrong about that last time so someone else should check before getting close to a lynch.

What does this mean?  You think I'm scum or you just don't like playing with me so you want me out of the way?  If you oppose my style but don't actually think I'm scum, that's a real bad town move, bucko.

[raerae]

sooo, like...just andrew?

Or PPS, you need me to post that reads list for you again?

[scott_pilgrim]

I'm here.  I think I like the raerae lynch (I'm assuming no one else wants to vote Robz yet since no one has done so for several days).  I don't like the way she's been acting but I also think we get some information from her flip.  vote: raerae I think that's L-3 but I was wrong about that last time so someone else should check before getting close to a lynch.

What does this mean?  You think I'm scum or you just don't like playing with me so you want me out of the way?  If you oppose my style but don't actually think I'm scum, that's a real bad town move, bucko.

Yes of course I am aware of that.  When I say I don't like the way you've been acting I'm saying I don't think it's beneficial for town.  That is, you're either acting like scum, or like bad town that might get us to mislynch.  Specifically, the way you've been going after FTTW when he very clearly seems to be acting exactly how I would expect him to as town.  (Which isn't to say he is necessarily town, but if he is scum he has been doing a very good job of acting like he is town, considering it is his first game.)

[AndrewisFTTW]

Notice that you didn't vote for me until you asked me if shraeye was scum or not. I gave you a newbie indirect answer and a more firm direct answer and it didn't matter anyway. I also don't like the way you handled almost being lynched and this clear stretching the truth of what actually happy isn't so great either.

You're trying to tell me you're shraeye vote wasn't sarcastic?  Really?

No, that was a serious vote. And I should belatedly thank you for making me think it through.

Notice that you didn't vote for me until you asked me if shraeye was scum or not. I gave you a newbie indirect answer and a more firm direct answer and it didn't matter anyway. I also don't like the way you handled almost being lynched and this clear stretching the truth of what actually happy isn't so great either.

Sorry, forgot to address the rest of this in that last post.  What do you mean you didn't lie how I "handled" that near lynch?  And how I am I stretching the truth?  I quoted everything I'm referring to, what is being stretched?

I didn't like how instead of defending yourself, you accuse everyone else of not giving you a chance to defend yourself. You've had chances and you still have chances, you're just not using them. Please, at least try to convince me you're not scum for once this whole game.

You're stretching the truth by only addressing what you want to address instead of what needs to be addressed. For example, nowhere in your argument did you mention this:

So, is shraeye scum or not?

and you still haven't.

[yuma]

So are we going to get a lynch through today? The lack of progress and people showing saying "I am here, but have nothing to say" is not helping at all... I don't buy it for a second that you have nothing to say or add when there has been 2-3 days of content that you haven't talked about.

PS: i won't be online for the lynch deadline due to work. I'll try super hard to get on before I leave to catch the bus and makes sure my vote is where I want it.

[yuma]

So I was thinking about votes this game and decided to go back and see how many people had received low amounts of votes this game. Given the current meta of f.ds I would suspect that scum players would want to vote for each other to create those fabricated interactions, thus a lack of votes may indicate a lack of being scum...

here is what I found (note that I didn't include high votes because those were harder to count given the amount of quotes and such and arent' really the focal point of what I am trying to accomplish here)

3.  Robz888 - only 1 vote all game
4.  mail-mi - only 1 vote all game
6.  mcmcsalot - 0 votes all game
7.  A Drowned Kernel - 1 vote all game
8.  pingpongsam - 1 vote all game
10. AndrewisFTTW - 2 votes all game
12. Axxle - 2 votes all game

So biggest point from this is that mcmc is very townie to me. Either he is town or he is scum who has had zero votes from partners all game (possible, but given the f.ds meta of "how to play scum" unlikely I think). There are quite a few players with only 1 vote as well. And Axxle and Andrew with 2.

For context here are the players with more than 2 votes, most have received quite a few (like 6+): yuma, shraeye, eevee, scott, raerae

So I think the four above (myself excluded for my purposes) are probably where we should be focusing... and to an extent we are. Of course this isn't definitive statistics, but is worthwhile I believe and something I woudl be interested in tracking at some point over the course of games... (although once you start studying something you begin to change how people respond)

I am frustrated that the shraeye lynch that I am promoting is being more or less ignored. Maybe that means I am wrong and people don't see anything to it... So... ok moving on. raerae I could still vote for, but I don't really see it as being a wagon that is going to get to the lynch given how it has more or less stalled with multiple people saying they weren't going to support it (eevee, robz, axxle)

So... eevee and scott? I could vote for scott (added benefit that he has 2 votes on him already). Eevee... really the only thing that I know about eevee from this game is that he has opposed the raerae lynch. Other than that, kinda drawing a blank. Eevee why shouldn't I vote for you? (other than the fact that I am now gunshy from voting you after the last game?)

Looking at the two votes on scott I more or less agree with eevee's and ADK's points about playing it safe and a somewhat scummy reaction to the Robz random vote thing (OMGUS)

vote: scott

[shraeye]

If nobody else is behind a yuma lynch, then I want raerae.

Vote: raerae

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.19iPad:

raerae (5): AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, scott_pilgrim, shraeye
yuma (1): pingpongsam
shraeye (1): Robz888
scott_pilgrim (3): Eevee, A Drowned Kernel, Yuma
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae

Not Voting (1): Axxle

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

That is in less than 24 hours.

[yuma]

If nobody else is behind a yuma lynch, then I want raerae.

Vote: raerae

Or maybe it can happen? I don't like voting behind shraeye, but my read on raerae remains scummy regardless...

vote: raerae

This is L-1

[yuma]

No... unvote.

I don't like being behind shraeye... Are we sure we don't want to lynch him?

back to vote: scott unless we can lynch shraeye, I am more sure about him than I am about raerae

[mcmcsalot]

No... unvote.

I don't like being behind shraeye... Are we sure we don't want to lynch him?

back to vote: scott unless we can lynch shraeye, I am more sure about him than I am about raerae

you think scott reacted more scummy to robz than raerae acted toward andrew?

[Eevee]

shraeye probably has my support, especially if the situation seems to be that it's him or nolynch. I'll reread him, but need a couple of hours.

[yuma]

No... unvote.

I don't like being behind shraeye... Are we sure we don't want to lynch him?

back to vote: scott unless we can lynch shraeye, I am more sure about him than I am about raerae

you think scott reacted more scummy to robz than raerae acted toward andrew?

Sorry... that sentence is confusing my bad.

I am more sure about (shraeye) than I am about raerae... but no one wants to vote for him. Eevee saying he might gives me hope.... but probably not enough to move it.

raerae and scott are pretty close in terms of my reads on them (both in the scummier areas...). raerae has lessened somewhat because of shraeye voting for her but also her reaction to my continued pressure for her to move her vote somewhere more useful. Her reaction to that felt like sassy!town!raerae. Of course it just might be sassy!scum!raerae, but I don't have any memory (aside from some foggy memory of being the mod in CLUE) of raerae as scum to base that off

So really I feel like I do in Diffusion of Power with the lynch choices going into the end of day. I am pretty much ok with all of the ones we are considering (except for myself obviously). Now I would be worried about that except that we almost had ahoppy there, so maybe there is hope here.

what I am worried about is the complete lack of everyone posting.... but I am hopeful people will be posting while I am gone cause I need to catch the bus!

[mail-mi]

In order of scumminess:
Raerae
Shraeye
Eevee
Yuma
Scott

I'll join shraeye if it doesn't look like raerae will happen.

Also, probably wont be on for deadline because thats during school, in fact,  this may be my last post.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay thanks Yuma you answered perfectly, I think mafia has hit a slow point across the board so I don't think it's too indicative of the wagons or alignment.

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'll join shraeye if it doesn't look like raerae will happen.

I guess I could do this too. I don't think a shraeye lynch today is likely though.

[Robz888]

Vote: Scott

[AndrewisFTTW]

Well we got about two and a half hours. Anybody else got anything to say? It's looking like a no-lynch today. Raerae is at L-2 and scott is L-3... right?

[shraeye]

No... unvote.

I don't like being behind shraeye... Are we sure we don't want to lynch him?

back to vote: scott unless we can lynch shraeye, I am more sure about him than I am about raerae

And here it is.  He claimed to want to vote for raerae and still has raerae as a scum read, but chooses not to put her to L-1.  you know that if you voted for her, somebody would hammer that.  You're the deciding vote, and you're deciding not to lynch her...DESPITE your read on her.  That's shenanigans.  Raerae being sassy is not indicative of her being town, It's indicative of her being raerae.  And you should know that.  You're just grabbing at flimsy reasons not to Lynch your partner.  I'm calling it here and now.

Raerae and yuma are partners, 200%.

[shraeye]

I dare people to lynch her and prove me wrong.

[Eevee]

I mean I greatly prefer scotty, but starts to be about time for someone to hit l-1?

[Axxle]

What's the argument on scott again? Because I don't want to lynch raerae just for being raerae.

No... unvote.

I don't like being behind shraeye... Are we sure we don't want to lynch him?

back to vote: scott unless we can lynch shraeye, I am more sure about him than I am about raerae

And here it is.  He claimed to want to vote for raerae and still has raerae as a scum read, but chooses not to put her to L-1.  you know that if you voted for her, somebody would hammer that.  You're the deciding vote, and you're deciding not to lynch her...DESPITE your read on her.  That's shenanigans.  Raerae being sassy is not indicative of her being town, It's indicative of her being raerae.  And you should know that.  You're just grabbing at flimsy reasons not to Lynch your partner.  I'm calling it here and now.

Raerae and yuma are partners, 200%.

I'm pretty sure yuma townslipped earlier though...

[Robz888]

I dare people to lynch her and prove me wrong.

Okay. Vote: Raerae

[ashersky]

Vote Count 1.20iPad:

raerae (6): AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, scott_pilgrim, shraeye, robz888
yuma (1): pingpongsam
scott_pilgrim (3): Eevee, A Drowned Kernel, Yuma
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae

Not Voting (1): Axxle

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

That is in less than 2 hours.

[Robz888]

Someone hammer, please.

[Axxle]

Intent to hammer at 1pm PST.

[Axxle]

Someone hammer, please.

Has she claimed?

[Robz888]

Someone hammer, please.

Has she claimed?

No. I think she said she wouldn't, and already got to L-1, but let's check.

[Robz888]

I guess she was technically never L-1, and didn't say she wouldn't claim. Let's let her, obviously.

[shraeye]

Someone hammer, please.

Has she claimed?

No, but raerae doesn't claim.

What's the argument on scott again? Because I don't want to lynch raerae just for being raerae.

No... unvote.

I don't like being behind shraeye... Are we sure we don't want to lynch him?

back to vote: scott unless we can lynch shraeye, I am more sure about him than I am about raerae

And here it is.  He claimed to want to vote for raerae and still has raerae as a scum read, but chooses not to put her to L-1.  you know that if you voted for her, somebody would hammer that.  You're the deciding vote, and you're deciding not to lynch her...DESPITE your read on her.  That's shenanigans.  Raerae being sassy is not indicative of her being town, It's indicative of her being raerae.  And you should know that.  You're just grabbing at flimsy reasons not to Lynch your partner.  I'm calling it here and now.

Raerae and yuma are partners, 200%.

I'm pretty sure yuma townslipped earlier though...

Where and how?  I see scum all over his treatment of raerae.

[shraeye]

I guess she was technically never L-1, and didn't say she wouldn't claim. Let's let her, obviously.

I think we have to forego that, considering that rae doesn't claim, deadline is at 430, and that's basically right when she gets off work.

[Robz888]

I guess she was technically never L-1, and didn't say she wouldn't claim. Let's let her, obviously.

I think we have to forego that, considering that rae doesn't claim, deadline is at 430, and that's basically right when she gets off work.

Okay then. Well, you get your wish.

[Axxle]

Someone hammer, please.

Has she claimed?

No, but raerae doesn't claim.

I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt.

As for the slip:

Oh, you're right.  I should probably just hope on whatever bandwagon forms next and plunk my vote there. 

Yep that is exactly what I said...

Now that we have gotten our passive aggressive sarcasm out of the way.... Seriously though. Look at it this way. There are 3 mafia to 10 town. It takes 7 to lynch. If you are town and if you are just keeping your vote on Andrew then town has one less vote to utilize in finding scum. I know you think that Andrew is scum. He might be, he might not be. But the fact of the matter is that he isn't getting lynched today... So your vote is in effect "not voting" for purposes of finding a lynch. This is all stuff you already know, so I dont' even know why I am saying it.... but I will say it anyways... And no I am not saying just plunk your vote down onto a wagon. But analyze the wagons see who you find the most likely to be scum and usefully and effectively place your vote on someone. I am pretty sure you already knew that I was effectively saying this above, but here it is again spelled out for you.

"3 mafia to 10 town" - I doubt scum would make this mistake.
This whole post feels pretty town to me, treating raerae as town even if she's a scum read. I don't think scum would do that with their partner. From his posts since 324 I see a natural strong scumread progress to a weak enough read to want to pursue others. His lack of tunneling is pretty town.

[shraeye]

3 mafia to 10 town...thats a mistake?

Also, I think that scum yuma had a fake shady-read on raerae, therefore 'treating her as town' is in fact a mistake that showed his true thoughts were different from his 'reads'

[Robz888]

Someone hammer, please.

Has she claimed?

No, but raerae doesn't claim.

I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt.

As for the slip:

Oh, you're right.  I should probably just hope on whatever bandwagon forms next and plunk my vote there. 

Yep that is exactly what I said...

Now that we have gotten our passive aggressive sarcasm out of the way.... Seriously though. Look at it this way. There are 3 mafia to 10 town. It takes 7 to lynch. If you are town and if you are just keeping your vote on Andrew then town has one less vote to utilize in finding scum. I know you think that Andrew is scum. He might be, he might not be. But the fact of the matter is that he isn't getting lynched today... So your vote is in effect "not voting" for purposes of finding a lynch. This is all stuff you already know, so I dont' even know why I am saying it.... but I will say it anyways... And no I am not saying just plunk your vote down onto a wagon. But analyze the wagons see who you find the most likely to be scum and usefully and effectively place your vote on someone. I am pretty sure you already knew that I was effectively saying this above, but here it is again spelled out for you.

"3 mafia to 10 town" - I doubt scum would make this mistake.
This whole post feels pretty town to me, treating raerae as town even if she's a scum read. I don't think scum would do that with their partner. From his posts since 324 I see a natural strong scumread progress to a weak enough read to want to pursue others. His lack of tunneling is pretty town.

I agree, Axxle.

[Axxle]

3 mafia to 10 town...thats a mistake?

12 player game. Proof is left as an exercise to the reader.

[pingpongsam]

Available by phone to deadline trying to analyze the raerae wagon now.

[pingpongsam]

Why is yuma not voting raerae?

[pingpongsam]

Still reading raerae as town and could nitpick the wagoneers but mostly see a misled town see more scum in yuma, eevee and ADK, agree it does feel similar to DoP.

[pingpongsam]

If I had to pick scum off the raerae wagon :

Robz: way out of meta with so many votes inclined to read this as willing town though since scum Robz wouldn't be so active.

Mcmc: agree with some earlier reads on him, he has felt relatively scummy all game to me but iinm I have no meta on him.

Scott could be the Ahoppy of this game.

Shraye is way too enthusiastic about the wagon but the limb this puts him on is not made for scum

[pingpongsam]

Why is Axxle not voting?

[Axxle]

Also, I think that scum yuma had a fake shady-read on raerae, therefore 'treating her as town' is in fact a mistake that showed his true thoughts were different from his 'reads'

If this is true that means yuma is far more likely to be scum than raerae.

Why is Axxle not voting?

Please read my posts.

[shraeye]

That's why yuma is my #1.  But his lynch wasn't happening.

[pingpongsam]

Why is Axxle not voting?

Please read my posts.

So, because you're waiting on a claim that will be useless when you are forced to hammer in 30 minutes? I can see why you didn't want to type that nonsense out yourself. So, what is the real reason?

[Axxle]

Why is Axxle not voting?

Please read my posts.

So, because you're waiting on a claim that will be useless when you are forced to hammer in 30 minutes? I can see why you didn't want to type that nonsense out yourself. So, what is the real reason?

Because I'm really null on raerae and I'd like as much information as possible before ending the day.
What other reason would I have?

[Axxle]

Vote: raerae

[ashersky]

Final Day 1 Vote Count:

raerae (7): AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, scott_pilgrim, shraeye, robz888, Axxle
yuma (1): pingpongsam
scott_pilgrim (3): Eevee, A Drowned Kernel, Yuma
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae

Not Voting (0):

With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

[ashersky]

The group sitting around the tree house and finally come to a decision.

"You did all of this, Ice King!  You have to drink the brown goo first!"  Finn yelled, pointing at the blue old man.

"Uhhhh...look, Finn, buddy, you know I wouldn't ever really hurt anyone, right?  And since the magic switcheroo gas thing, I've felt really happy lately.  Don't make me drink the brown goo, Finn!"

"Sorry Ice King, we decided as a group.  You have to.  Here."  Finn handed the vial to the Ice King.

"Oh fine.  But you'll pay for this some day!"

The Ice King took a sip of brown goo, making a funny face at the horrible flavor.  "Oh....oh...this isn't good at all..."  The Ice King mumbled some more, then fell over, fast asleep.

raerae, inhabiting the body of The Ice King, has been sent to sleepy town!  She was the Mafia Strongman!

[ashersky]

Thread is locked and Night 1 has begun.  All night actions, as well as confirmation PMs from everyone, are due in 24 hours.  Day 2 will begin in 48 hours.

[ashersky]

The night action submission has passed.  No further actions may be submitted or changed.

[ashersky]

Everyone went to sleep happy that night, knowing that one of the evil attackers had been banished to sleepy town. They had dragged the Ice King's body out the door and into the super secret hidden dungeon at the base of the treehouse to make sure he wouldn't wake up and hurt anyone.

Everyone found a place to sleep somewhere, either on a couch or a bed or the floor. Marceline just floated in the air. It was a pretty quiet night for everyone.

When the sun came up, there was a loud knocking on the window. It was the Earl of Lemongrab! He started waving frantically when he saw people waking up.

"Hey Earl! What are you doing there?" Finn asked.

"Yeah, and why didn't you just come in through the broken down door?" Jake chimed in.

After scratching his head a minute, the Earl walked in the door. "Look quickly, down at the ground! There's a body there! I noticed him as I was talking my morning walk with my Lemon Children. I thought you should know."

"Well...thanks Earl, but get back to Lemongrab! You know you can't be here anymore!" Finn yelled.

As the Earl left, the rest of the group peered out the window. At the bottom of the tree, encased in pink foam, was the sleeping body of The Goliad! It looked like he was definitely stuck there, and wouldn't be coming back to the party any time soon...

AndrewisFTTW, inhabiting the body of The Goliad, was removed from the party at night! He was a Vanilla Townie!

[ashersky]

Day 2 has begun, and ends in 10 days.

[Robz888]

Hooray!!! Okay this game should be pretty winnable. I didn't actually do any rereading or analyzing, because I thought it sort of likely I would be the one who died. I will get to that now, though.

Basically, we should look for people were working* to defuse the raerae wagon the first time, but bused when it came up again, I think.

*By working, I mean in actual deed, not in word. Her partners would have voiced support for the lynch without actually contributing toward it (early on).

[Robz888]

Town read on yuma completely revoked, of course.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.0:

Not Voting (10): Eevee, scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mail-mi, yuma, mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kernel, pingpongsam, shraeye, Axxle

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:45 p.m. on March 14, 2014.

[Robz888]

Nothing to say, mcmc? I see you are quite active on the forums right now.

[scott_pilgrim]

Wow, I'm a little surprised FTTW got night killed, I was going to comment on the plausibility of it being a set-up between him and raerae.

Okay, so yuma and ADK:

Yuma talking about raerae's scumminess and continuing to not vote for her just looks really bad now.  I'm not sure what to think of it though, because I think if he were scum he would have realized the raerae lynch was nearly inevitable by the end of the day, so his jumping onto and immediately jumping off of that wagon seems strange.  I still think he looks really bad though.  He keeps talking about how raerae is a good lynch, but he never puts his money where his mouth is.  Like he wants people to know he thinks she's scum, because the lynch will probably go through, but he doesn't want to contribute to it going through on the off-chance he can get another lynch to happen.

I think it's worth looking into ADK as well, because he is the one who jumped off of the earlier raerae wagon.  He's probably going to (maybe justifiably) hate me for bringing this up, because his town narrative makes sense and there's not much he can add in his own defense.  He says he just didn't want to lynch that early in the day, and that's reasonable.  But it makes so much sense from a scum perspective as well: He tries to get raerae some early attention, so that hopefully people back off on her the rest of the game (like AHoppy in Diffusion of Powers); when she gets to L-1 he realizes it's getting dangerous and jumps off.  Later he votes for me, the next most popular wagon, hoping that he can lynch me rather than his scum partner.

[pingpongsam]

I thought Robz looked iffy for his final wagon entry. I am more inclined to look off wagon though. Just landed for a bit of a layover so maybe can get another post in once I deplane.

[Axxle]

Vote: scott_pilgrim

raerae not jumping on him when she could is pretty telling.

[yuma]

Town read on yuma completely revoked, of course.

well isn't that convenient for you...

[Robz888]

Town read on yuma completely revoked, of course.

well isn't that convenient for you...

It's actually inconvenient. I would much rather keep playing the game confident that you are town. Alas, I no longer have that luxury.

[yuma]

Okay, so yuma and ADK:

Yuma talking about raerae's scumminess and continuing to not vote for her just looks really bad now.  I'm not sure what to think of it though, because I think if he were scum he would have realized the raerae lynch was nearly inevitable by the end of the day, so his jumping onto and immediately jumping off of that wagon seems strange.  I still think he looks really bad though.  He keeps talking about how raerae is a good lynch, but he never puts his money where his mouth is.  Like he wants people to know he thinks she's scum, because the lynch will probably go through, but he doesn't want to contribute to it going through on the off-chance he can get another lynch to happen.
[/quote]

Honestly when I first left the raerae wagon it was because I thought it wasn't going to go through and we needed to look elsewhere. The second time I left it it was 100% because of shraeye. I don't know what to think about him anymore... but I will say that if he is town his play was extremely frustrating for me. His tunneling of me throughout day1 left me feeling very uneasy about him to the extent that I was uncomfortable being on the same wagon as him (right or wrong) as I no longer trusted him at all. Basically I let his tunneling of me affect my playstyle and my reads. That is obviously not ideal.

[yuma]

I thought Robz looked iffy for his final wagon entry. I am more inclined to look off wagon though.

I do agree about the look off wagon part. I am less sure about the Robz part.

[Axxle]

Vote: scott_pilgrim

raerae not jumping on him when she could is pretty telling.

Also yuck:

Wow, I'm a little surprised FTTW got night killed

[Eevee]

It's hard to concentrate on two games coming back from night at once, but I actually reread this entire game on a plane ride so I have a decent graps on what's up.

First of all, I'm very surprised Andrew got killed. I guess
many people thought he was a slam dunk to be town,
but it wasn't the impression I got.

yuma, it seems uncharacteristically poor town play from you to let shraeye's tunnel affect you like that. the wagon behavior certainly implicates you. not dying is less scummy than usual here though, because after playing a legitimately scummy day, you wouldn't make much sense as a kill.

i think ADK is where I'd put my suspicions first here.
I'll reread him specifically to explain this when I open a
computer. mcmc seems towny.

[yuma]

yuma, it seems uncharacteristically poor town play from you to let shraeye's tunnel affect you like that. the wagon behavior certainly implicates you. not dying is less scummy than usual here though, because after playing a legitimately scummy day, you wouldn't make much sense as a kill.

To an extent I will agree. But as of late all of my play has resulted in "poor town play from me" as of late. I am not trying to be "woe is me" guy and get any pity, but I really, really am in a deep, deep slump (I have said this elsewhere but I haven't won a game or been right about a lynch since DWI--that is like 5 or 6 games and a whole lot of wagons...) and that has me questioning how I play as I previously thought I was playing really good games and then getting slammed with results

So really I am trying anything at this point to see if I can get back on track and this includes going back to my gut instincts. If I had held true to my gut instincts about Robz in Diffusion that game might have gone a lot differently. Didn't turn out so great here... although it still might as raerae's flip obviously doesn't give any information regarding shraeye himself....

[Axxle]

It's hard to concentrate on two games coming back from night at once, but I actually reread this entire game on a plane ride so I have a decent graps on what's up.

First of all, I'm very surprised Andrew got killed. I guess
many people thought he was a slam dunk to be town,
but it wasn't the impression I got.

yuma, it seems uncharacteristically poor town play from you to let shraeye's tunnel affect you like that. the wagon behavior certainly implicates you. not dying is less scummy than usual here though, because after playing a legitimately scummy day, you wouldn't make much sense as a kill.

i think ADK is where I'd put my suspicions first here.
I'll reread him specifically to explain this when I open a
computer. mcmc seems towny.

Posts look like haikus
Unfortunately they're not
Why, fuzzy, oh why?

[shraeye]

Town read on yuma completely revoked, of course.

Glad you're coming around to it.

vote: yuma

[Eevee]

It's hard to concentrate on two games coming back from night at once, but I actually reread this entire game on a plane ride so I have a decent graps on what's up.

First of all, I'm very surprised Andrew got killed. I guess
many people thought he was a slam dunk to be town,
but it wasn't the impression I got.

yuma, it seems uncharacteristically poor town play from you to let shraeye's tunnel affect you like that. the wagon behavior certainly implicates you. not dying is less scummy than usual here though, because after playing a legitimately scummy day, you wouldn't make much sense as a kill.

i think ADK is where I'd put my suspicions first here.
I'll reread him specifically to explain this when I open a
computer. mcmc seems towny.

Posts look like haikus
Unfortunately they're not
Why, fuzzy, oh why?

Phone posting,
enter key or space bar,
often click the wrong button.

[shraeye]

Yuma talking about raerae's scumminess and continuing to not vote for her just looks really bad now.  I'm not sure what to think of it though, because I think if he were scum he would have realized the raerae lynch was nearly inevitable by the end of the day, so his jumping onto and immediately jumping off of that wagon seems strange.  I still think he looks really bad though.  He keeps talking about how raerae is a good lynch, but he never puts his money where his mouth is.  Like he wants people to know he thinks she's scum, because the lynch will probably go through, but he doesn't want to contribute to it going through on the off-chance he can get another lynch to happen.

Yeah, yuma's handing of raerae implicated them both really hardcore.  Right now, I'm basically looking for their other partner.

Honestly when I first left the raerae wagon it was because I thought it wasn't going to go through and we needed to look elsewhere. The second time I left it it was 100% because of shraeye. I don't know what to think about him anymore... but I will say that if he is town his play was extremely frustrating for me. His tunneling of me throughout day1 left me feeling very uneasy about him to the extent that I was uncomfortable being on the same wagon as him (right or wrong) as I no longer trusted him at all. Basically I let his tunneling of me affect my playstyle and my reads. That is obviously not ideal.

Yuma, you're a more level-headed town player than that and unfortunately everybody knows that.  Townyuma wouldn't let me tunneling him prevent him from lynching somebody who you had previously wanted to lynch.

yuma, it seems uncharacteristically poor town play from you to let shraeye's tunnel affect you like that. the wagon behavior certainly implicates you.

agree

[shraeye]

Vote: scott_pilgrim

raerae not jumping on him when she could is pretty telling.

Also yuck:

Wow, I'm a little surprised FTTW got night killed

What do you mean, yuck?  I'm also surprised that FTTW got killed.  This is such an outdated scumtell, use better ones.

[Eevee]

One thing that stuck out to me when rereading this game, Axxle and PPS have such unique playing styles, I find them both extremely hard to read just because they are so different.

[yuma]

Yuma, you're a more level-headed town player than that and unfortunately everybody knows that.  Townyuma wouldn't let me tunneling him prevent him from lynching somebody who you had previously wanted to lynch.

Well thanks for the compliment I guess...

But doesn't this whole argument work the other way? I generally consider myself to be a better mafia player than town player for starters, but what you are describing me doing as mafia isn't level-headed and is "uncharacteristically poor" as Eevee said.

So am I only smart and good at mafia when I am town, but when I am mafia I play crappy and obviously?

I am not perfect as town (look back at the last 5 games and see for yourself) and I think it is ridiculous that anytime I mislynch someone or am not on a mafia lynch wagon I am automatically deemed super scummy (not just this game obviously, but just in general f.ds metawise... I mean it doesn't make the game fun and puts undue pressure on me to be perfect which might just explain why I have been playing so crappy lately)

[shraeye]

Yuma, you're a more level-headed town player than that and unfortunately everybody knows that.  Townyuma wouldn't let me tunneling him prevent him from lynching somebody who you had previously wanted to lynch.

Well thanks for the compliment I guess...

But doesn't this whole argument work the other way? I generally consider myself to be a better mafia player than town player for starters, but what you are describing me doing as mafia isn't level-headed and is "uncharacteristically poor" as Eevee said.

So am I only smart and good at mafia when I am town, but when I am mafia I play crappy and obviously?

I am not perfect as town (look back at the last 5 games and see for yourself) and I think it is ridiculous that anytime I mislynch someone or am not on a mafia lynch wagon I am automatically deemed super scummy (not just this game obviously, but just in general f.ds metawise... I mean it doesn't make the game fun and puts undue pressure on me to be perfect which might just explain why I have been playing so crappy lately)

Slipping up and protecting your partner too much is a much easier mistake to make than to change your entire persona, and get too blinded by a tunnelling person.  One is a strategic error (the first, and what you did).  The second is a change in personality and rarely happens without concerted effort towards change (and this isn't the sorta style you'd want to change into).

[yuma]

One is a strategic error (the first, and what you did).  The second is a change in personality and rarely happens without concerted effort towards change (and this isn't the sorta style you'd want to change into).

Only if I am mafia is it a strategic error. Otherwise it is an emotional error, which I am perfectly capable of having especially when I am questioning my playing personality as it is obviously completely and totally ineffective at finding scum and winning this bloody game.

[Eevee]

Yuma, you're a more level-headed town player than that and unfortunately everybody knows that.  Townyuma wouldn't let me tunneling him prevent him from lynching somebody who you had previously wanted to lynch.

Well thanks for the compliment I guess...

But doesn't this whole argument work the other way? I generally consider myself to be a better mafia player than town player for starters, but what you are describing me doing as mafia isn't level-headed and is "uncharacteristically poor" as Eevee said.

So am I only smart and good at mafia when I am town, but when I am mafia I play crappy and obviously?

I am not perfect as town (look back at the last 5 games and see for yourself) and I think it is ridiculous that anytime I mislynch someone or am not on a mafia lynch wagon I am automatically deemed super scummy (not just this game obviously, but just in general f.ds metawise... I mean it doesn't make the game fun and puts undue pressure on me to be perfect which might just explain why I have been playing so crappy lately)

Well, if you are scum you had a lot of incentive to avoid having raerae lynched, obviously. It didn't pan out for you, but you might have deemed it worth the risk.

[yuma]

Yuma, you're a more level-headed town player than that and unfortunately everybody knows that.  Townyuma wouldn't let me tunneling him prevent him from lynching somebody who you had previously wanted to lynch.

Well thanks for the compliment I guess...

But doesn't this whole argument work the other way? I generally consider myself to be a better mafia player than town player for starters, but what you are describing me doing as mafia isn't level-headed and is "uncharacteristically poor" as Eevee said.

So am I only smart and good at mafia when I am town, but when I am mafia I play crappy and obviously?

I am not perfect as town (look back at the last 5 games and see for yourself) and I think it is ridiculous that anytime I mislynch someone or am not on a mafia lynch wagon I am automatically deemed super scummy (not just this game obviously, but just in general f.ds metawise... I mean it doesn't make the game fun and puts undue pressure on me to be perfect which might just explain why I have been playing so crappy lately)

Well, if you are scum you had a lot of incentive to avoid having raerae lynched, obviously. It didn't pan out for you, but you might have deemed it worth the risk.

If I were mafia I would have stuck on her and bussed hard to salvage anything. What I would not have done is what shareye is accusing me of doing... waffling and going back and forth. I am perfectly capable of bussing hard (MXIX for example) as mafia and will do so. So for shraeye who should know this to come in and insist that I am mafia is well... frustrating... that he doesn't seem to be considering the narrative where I am town.

[shraeye]

Yuma, you're a more level-headed town player than that and unfortunately everybody knows that.  Townyuma wouldn't let me tunneling him prevent him from lynching somebody who you had previously wanted to lynch.

Well thanks for the compliment I guess...

But doesn't this whole argument work the other way? I generally consider myself to be a better mafia player than town player for starters, but what you are describing me doing as mafia isn't level-headed and is "uncharacteristically poor" as Eevee said.

So am I only smart and good at mafia when I am town, but when I am mafia I play crappy and obviously?

I am not perfect as town (look back at the last 5 games and see for yourself) and I think it is ridiculous that anytime I mislynch someone or am not on a mafia lynch wagon I am automatically deemed super scummy (not just this game obviously, but just in general f.ds metawise... I mean it doesn't make the game fun and puts undue pressure on me to be perfect which might just explain why I have been playing so crappy lately)

Well, if you are scum you had a lot of incentive to avoid having raerae lynched, obviously. It didn't pan out for you, but you might have deemed it worth the risk.

If I were mafia I would have stuck on her and bussed hard to salvage anything. What I would not have done is what shareye is accusing me of doing... waffling and going back and forth. I am perfectly capable of bussing hard (MXIX for example) as mafia and will do so. So for shraeye who should know this to come in and insist that I am mafia is well... frustrating... that he doesn't seem to be considering the narrative where I am town.

Yeah, but the initial time when you were pulling away from the raerae lynch it wasn't obvious at all.  It wasn't that you were visibly waffling.  It was a scenario where your public agenda and private agenda got crossed up, and I'm not sure if you even realized it until I pointed it out.

[pingpongsam]

Looking at the final D1 wagon and the resulting NK here are my initial reads in order of scummiest to towniest:

--------Would Lynch Reads:
Eevee
A Drowned Kernel
Yuma
--------Scummy Reads:
scott_pilgrim
Robz888
mcmcsalot
---------Null Reads:
mail-mi
shraeye
---------Town Reads:
Axxle
=========IC Reads:
pingpongsam

Note, this is strictly wagon analysis based on a possibly vague recollection of yesterday's events and how the wagons shaped up. I still have to find the time to reread with the new information. As it is, I need to get decent sleep for a huge day tomorrow then fly back home so it will probably be Friday night or Saturday morning before I can commit to anything.

[Axxle]

Yuma's got some pretty weak reasons for not being on raerae, but I feel like he'd try a bit harder to find better ones if he was scum.

To those that are surprised by Andrew's death: why?

[Axxle]

Yuma's got some pretty weak reasons for not being on raerae, but I feel like he'd try a bit harder to find better ones if he was scum.

Eh. i should stop Wifoming myself.

Vote: Yuma

[pingpongsam]

Not surprised by FTTW's death. More surprised he flipped Vanilla because I think scum was hunting a PR more than a strong angle to work in D2.

[mcmcsalot]

Nothing to say, mcmc? I see you are quite active on the forums right now.

sry you posted this at almost 6, I got off work(sitting at a desk) at 5 then i started doing things, ill focus on this tomorow.

[A Drowned Kernel]

So there's a lot of suspicion on me right now, which is pretty understandable. I guess you either believe me when you say I was just trying to avoid a mislynch, or you don't.

Scum read on Scott pretty much revoked, I think he was on the wagon too early and too consistently to be bussing scum. The only voters I would believe as bussing scum right now are Robz or Shraeye, and those are very tentative. I'd rather vote off-wagon.

Between PPS, Eevee, and Yuma... Yuma obviously seems scummier now, but I think he'd have to be fairly incompetent scum to do what he did, and I guess that isn't likely. But maybe that's whole point of what he did? WIFOM etc. Eevee's hardline stance against the raerae wagon seems a little townier. PPS, hmm.

Caught up early yesterday and again today. Will likely be gone all day but so far still standing firm on my vote. Not seeing anything new to convince me otherwise. Quite surprised there hasn't been a push for a wagon on me to date. I was kind of provoking one to see who would join it. While I have some suspicions about who may be scum I am largely null on everyone. Probably the only actual townish read I have is Axxle and I tend to doubly suspect my D1 Town reads.

(bold added)

Found this while I was rereading his posts, the unprovoked questioning of why no one is suspicious of him strikes me as someone who knows that people should have reason to be suspicious of them. Kind of like what I was reading from Eevee at the very beginning of the game, I thought I was misreading that but maybe I wasn't.

No vote yet, still have to wait and see I think.

[mail-mi]

I don't like shraeye's way of tunneling yuma, but he does look pretty scummy from yesterday (yuma does) so I'm going to go ahead and jump on the vote: yuma bandwagon.

[shraeye]

What's the difference between tunneling and strongly believing that I'm correct?

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.1:

yuma (3): shraeye, Axxle, mail-mi

Not Voting (7): Eevee, scott_pilgrim, Robz888, yuma, mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kernel, pingpongsam

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:45 p.m. on March 14, 2014.

[mail-mi]

What's the difference between tunneling and strongly believing that I'm correct?

tunneling--focusing only on 1 person.

believing you're correct: yuma has a high possibility of being scum.

And I don't "strongly" believe you are correct, i just think that he has a higher chance of being scum and it's a good place to have my vote for the beginning of the day,.

[Robz888]

Here are all the votes cast against raerae, in order:

vote: shraeye

wrong.

vote: raerae?

^This is a nothing vote. It tells us nothing.

So we've got a pretty decent wagon on Shraeye, but it seems to have a pretty flimsy basis to me. Axxle originally voted because Shraeye's posts were supposedly just fluff, which isn't isn't that unusual at the beginning of the game, then confirmed it because Shraeye gave a newbie a little bit of a hard time. Then mail-mi and yuma basically jumped on the wagon without a contribution to the discussion beyond "yeah, what Axxle said!" And raerae's vote is a RVS holdover (I'm assuming that was RVS), so I'm just gonna put my vote on her until she changes hers or justifies it.

Vote: raerae

^This vote would tend ADK toward town, I think, because it puts raerae in danger. That first wagon against shraeye was never going anywhere, but a new, secondary wagon might.

Hey, Andrew, can we get your side of the story on this?  You think shraeye was trying to paint you in an ugly way?

Also, another real name, I'm tweaking a bit...

how about your opinion too?  how is andrew's opinion on my intent the one that you're interested in?

Vote: Andrew

So here's the deal, I wanted that question answered before I finalized this because on the reread I noticed that he sounded both knowledgeable and like a super-newbie.  Ya know, "I don't know what's going on?  Is this a thing?  What about this other complicated thing that isn't normal for a newbie to know about?"  It feels like he was fed info prior to the game but then also told to play up his newbie status.  I wanted to hear what he'd have to say re: shraeye first to see if he'd actually have an opinion when pressed or if he'd just talk around an answer.  Personally, I think the thing on shraeye is nonsense and I'm shocked it gained as much traction as it did.

vote: raerae

Her interaction with Andrew looks like she was setting him up for failure (and for a vote)... something I think I could only see scum doing--well maybe poor town play--either way, I don't like it.

^This was a point I agreed with at the time, I think it makes sense from town perspective. Of course, piling onto the wagon at this point might be a good way to ensure it doesn't ultimately succeed, since we recoil in horror at quickly forming wagons.

vote: raerae

What answer could he have given that you would not have replied the same way?
From my perspective you asked him a question and afterwards voted him for a reason unrelated to his answer.

^Same.

Yes, I definitely agree that people should be careful and make sure to consider how their claim will benefit town as a whole and not just themselves.  I still feel like it would be very difficult for town to make a decision on whether someone else should claim though, since they don't know the player's role.  Unless you're suggesting they should say something like:

If you're X, claim.
If you're Y, don't claim.
If you're Z, claim.
...

That could potentially work in theory, but if you want to go through every single case "If you're a cop and you targeted X N1, claim; if you're a cop and you targeted Y N1, don't claim; etc." that's just a lot of trouble to go to.  The person who is potentially claiming will know their situation better than anyone else and will have put a lot more thought into it.

Anyway, that has no relevance to the game right now, since I don't think anyone has any immediate plans to claim anyway.

I feel like the way that raerae set up FTTW was intentional, and in the absence of anything scummier than that thus far, vote: raerae.  I think that puts her at L-2.

^Either a townie vote, or vote from scum ready to bus. Busing is the pro-move, but a dangerous one. Would Scotty do it? I tend to say no.

I've tried to think about how raerae voting for me for no good reason would benefit town but I can't see how it would. So vote: raerae and that's L-1.

^Andrew is town.

Vote: raerae

^There's actually a lot of ways you can read this vote. One, is that this was a crazy thing to do unless you knew raerae was flipping scum, which is something scum Axxle would know and could smartly do for cred. Two, is that his explanation actually makes sense and makes him very townie. I actually read town on Axxle for other reasons, so.

Okay, so I think from all this that the wagon, IMO, is a scum wagon run up by scum. Scum who wanted to get their partner,  raerae, up on an early wagon so she wouldn't be suspected later in the game. This is because of how quickly it rose/fell. So, based on this, vote: raerae.

^Raerae is down to 4 votes now, and mail-mi tries to get things going again. The interesting thing is that his analysis is probably spot on here, so I tend to acquit him. I guess it could be spot on because he is scum, though.

I've got some worthwhile thought.

Won't lynch; axxle, shraeye, Scott, Yuma, robz, mail-mi
Would lynch; pps, Andrew, ADK
Want to lynch; eevee, raerae

With that vote: raerae

^Well... is that a vote to bus, or not? That's the question. I could see it either way.

I'm here.  I think I like the raerae lynch (I'm assuming no one else wants to vote Robz yet since no one has done so for several days).  I don't like the way she's been acting but I also think we get some information from her flip.  vote: raerae I think that's L-3 but I was wrong about that last time so someone else should check before getting close to a lynch.

^She's actually down into safer territory now, so this vote, well, yeah, you can see it either way.

Next, Eevee says he opposes the raerae lynch and doesn't explain why when I press him. Next next, ADK tries to get the Scott lynch going. And yua is interested in that alternative wagon. Any alternative wagon, basically.

If nobody else is behind a yuma lynch, then I want raerae.

Vote: raerae

^Yuma casts the vote that essentially makes raerae the lynch.

If nobody else is behind a yuma lynch, then I want raerae.

Vote: raerae

Or maybe it can happen? I don't like voting behind shraeye, but my read on raerae remains scummy regardless...

vote: raerae

This is L-1

Yuma joins, but then quickly unvotes. Tihs feels strained to me, like he wants to like he's genuinely willing to lynch raerae, but is actually not wanting to do it.

I dare people to lynch her and prove me wrong.

Okay. Vote: Raerae

^Innocent Child.

Vote: raerae

^Axxle hammers, for real this time.

[Robz888]

Well, that wasn't as elucidating as I had hoped. Yuma is manifestly the scummiest off of that, no surprise there.

I think mcmc, Scotty, and ADK all have some points toward town and toward scum.

Shraeye and Axxle look quite townie.

[Robz888]

And then of course PPS and Eevee are scummy off-wagoners.

Mail-mi is a question mark as usual, though kind of townie, ultimately.

[Robz888]

Vote: Yuma, because that's the only sane vote at this time.

[Robz888]

Here were raerae's liar reads:

I forgot we've already gone 'round on this.  Thanks for the requote.  You still think this is "all" we've got today?  What do you think of everybody else?

What do you think of everybody else? I know you generally don't make "reads lists" but really the only person I feel you have been vocal about as being town or scum is Andrew.

Wrong. I usually save them for the end of the day but I don't anticipate being super active this weekend so now is as good a time as any.

1.  Eevee - not much that I recall from the fluffy one except that he left his vote on me that one time after saying he didn't think I was scum, seems sloppy if he's a bad dude so default to townish?
2.  scott_pilgrim - don't remember anything other than other people voting for him
3.  Robz888 - feels like town robz, I feel like scum robz would be louder and more direction-y
4.  mail-mi - seems different than I remember, less sheepy, more forward, not sure if that's scum mail-mi or just more experienced mail-mi
5.  yuma - same as shraeye, the longer he's around the more dangerous he is to the opposite team
6.  mcmcsalot - it's been awhile but I see town mcmc here
7.  A Drowned Kernel - seems sort of flip-floppy so some suspicion but nothing vote-worthy
8.  pingpongsam - he's talked a lot but not said anything, I could see scum here
9.  raerae - town to the max
10. AndrewisFTTW - I still say he's been coached, my vote isn't moving
11. shraeye - can't read him but the longer he's alive the less I trust him
12. Axxle - been active and somewhat pushing conversation along, sort of townie

The thing she said about Scott would indicate to me that he is town, since usually you want to say something about your teammates. What she said about PPS looks scummiest to me.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.2:

yuma (4): shraeye, Axxle, mail-mi, Robz888

Not Voting (6): Eevee, scott_pilgrim, yuma, mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kernel, pingpongsam

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:45 p.m. on March 14, 2014.

[pingpongsam]

I can conceive that there is at least 1 scum on wagon. It shaped up early that no other lynch was happening. I believe that there is at least 1 and more likely 2 scum off-wagon. I know I am not among them but because I am I A) expected to survive the night and B) expected to catch the majority of the heat today.

That yuma is catching it so hard is a conundrum. either Town is coasting to victory this game or yuma is the easier mislynch and Robz and ADK who I suspect they may be.

For now, while I do agree with points made on yuma I refuse to vote on such a quickly moving D2 wagon on yuma. I reserve the right to vote him later with new information. I still owe myself and the game a reread but my crazy day begins about now.

[yuma]

Yeah, but the initial time when you were pulling away from the raerae lynch it wasn't obvious at all.  It wasn't that you were visibly waffling.  It was a scenario where your public agenda and private agenda got crossed up, and I'm not sure if you even realized it until I pointed it out.

And this gets back to the whole meat of the issue that you disagree with how I approach the game... apparently you way is better as you hit scum while I flailed back and forth like an idiot, but that doesn't make me scum.

I don't see how you find someone scummy for saying "X is scum, but hey PPS that read of yours is complete bull and based off logic that has been refuted before."

you ask further down what is the difference between tunneling and strongly believing... tunneling is when you take any case, any evidence, any post and manipulate it so that it looks scummy in your eyes (what apparently you wanted me to do...) strongly believing is when you can look at evidence objectively regardless of what you believe and try to make accurate decisions based off that. I strongly believed raerae was scum, but I ended up tunneling you. That is the difference. And I feel like you voted me because I wasn't tunneling which is just a horrible attitude to take if you ask me because tunneling rarely produces anything positive.

[yuma]

Yuma's got some pretty weak reasons for not being on raerae

I can't help if the reasons are weak! They are what they are!

This feels like Toy Story where I was instantly deemed scummy by everyone for hammering faust and nobody liked how I was trying to justify what I did because I was just being honest and trying to explain why I did what I did and why it made sense at the time... Except here I don't think you guys are going to listen to me, whereas there I avoided being a mislynch...

[mcmcsalot]

Okay, it's been long enough.

Pretty strong town read on Yuma, I've been following scum Yuma relatively closely(modding helps a lot) scum Yuma at least in recent games has used ate in his defense like a lot and Yuma here is combating posts pretty logically and with a cool disposition(coolly looks dumb) so I read town on him.

[mcmcsalot]

I want to look at the wagons other than raerae that formed and see who formed them, no way scum lets raerae be the only wagon of the day.

[mcmcsalot]

I loaded the entire thread on my phone, prepare yourselves for lots of awkwardly formatted quotes and awesome scum hunting!

[mcmcsalot]

ash would we have been told if raerae was 1-shot?

[mail-mi]

I think that scotty is probably town because that's the alternate raerae wagon yesterday. I was also going to say FTTW was pretty townie, but then I remembered he was dead, oops

[mcmcsalot]

Oh okay not that it matters because ash is a setup ninja, no way claims help us for a loooooong time.

[mcmcsalot]

I cannot believe you people ruined my birthday party.

BMO claim post one?

Vote: pingpongsam

This is actually still really scummy.

[mcmcsalot]

I cannot believe you people ruined my birthday party.

BMO claim post one?

Vote: pingpongsam

Right, flavor names have zero to do with alignment because of the goo or something. So, yeah, I'm BMO and you continue to ruin my party for completely unsound reasons like not having paid any attention to what is going on around here. You know who doesn't need to pay much attention? scumbags.

Vote: Axxle

Yup really scummy.

[mcmcsalot]

Why is no one reacting to my genius pressure votes?

This sounds towny to me. It feels genuine.

[mcmcsalot]

Town read on robz! Seems like he planned to trap scum somehow with that post, I dont really see how but seems like a towny thing to attempt.

Ooh less of a town read, this refers to the ic thingy, scum or town robz would do that, so I don't see it as a reason to have a town read.

[mcmcsalot]

I think we should lynch one of the new guys just to help him grow the thick skin he's gonna need moving forward.

Vote: Andrew

Aha! And then Andrew dies, what was that about suspicion early means they wot get lynched later?

Pps and Yuma/robz remaining scum?(they are the huge omg early suspicions makes you invicible)

[mcmcsalot]

I think we should lynch one of the new guys just to help him grow the thick skin he's gonna need moving forward.

Vote: Andrew

Somewhat of a townread on PPS based off this post. A desire to kill off newbies has often resulted in the vet pushing the townie instead being lynched. As such I don't think scum would risk sticking their neck out like this (even as a joke..., which I think this probably is?)

So Yuma pps, not robz...

[mcmcsalot]

Oh and before some guts all in a fuss I understand I was all like yuma's town, yuma's sccum! It's pre reread and during reread, I'll give some more concise thoughts post reread, I just like rereading this way because I feel like it's genuine and y'all can follow along, at it makes it less boring.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay, so looking at the players in the game, I have a few questions for the people I don't know.

1.  Eevee - no questions here, he's fuzzy and adorable
2.  scott_pilgrim - I don't know you, can you please give a brief recap of your previous mafia experience whether it be in person or online
3.  Robz888 - no questions
4.  mail-mi - no questions
5.  yuma - no questions
6.  mcmcsalot - no questions
7.  A Drowned Kernel - I think you were showing up as I was leaving but I don't remember much, can I get a recap from you too, please?
8.  pingpongsam - I don't believe our paths ever crossed but I think you were around here before I was.  No questions just yet.
9.  raerae - nada
10. AndrewisFTTW - You are completely new to me, recap please?
11. shraeye - no questions
12. Axxle - no questions

She asks all newbies questions, no bets questions and has a very specific response to pps, is this what we would expect from scum? I'm not sure I actually feel like scum wants to puts at least one partner in the largest grouping(at least that's how I think as scum) so that if se flips scum we have a small chance of guessing the partner. So I would guess a partner in the no question group but idk, take out the weird thing with pps and this is literally a null "get newbie info" post.

[mcmcsalot]

Not quoting but next post raerae calls out robz/yuma/eevee about metas, I am thinking this is null as well, these are just the most outspoken metas we have I think. She calls Scott out for having a real name(she later does this with andrew) slight town read on Scott for this.

[mcmcsalot]

I really like the way Andrew is thinking, but "trying to see if anyone else thought this could be scummy" is definitely a scumtell.

This quip caught my eye. On the face of it is a simple banter with the new guy. But to me I felt a twinge of either scum!Eevee working a town!Andrew or scum!Eevee dancing with a scum!Andrew.

This twinged again when I saw:

I really like the way Andrew is thinking, but "trying to see if anyone else thought this could be scummy" is definitely a scumtell.

It is?

Yes. Looking for validation, or throwing dirt around and waiting to see what sticks until committing to it is natural for mafia, as they want to lynch anyone but one of their own.

It twinged again. Mild suspicion casting, casual interchange keeps the post count up, appear to be moving thee gam forward banter, hmmm.

And then:

Sure, others can weigh in on if what I described would be scummy in their eyes. Either way, I think it is. 

Anyways, what you did was obviously a very mild version of it, as you might have noticed I didn't even vote you for it. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything yet and kept an eye out on if whether you continue to do it before "warning you", but my I didn't think it far enough at the time I guess.

Actual confirmation of what the twinge was saying.

And finally:

Don't be! Way better than no conversation.

Direct confirmation that this might well be all about appearances.

Vote: Eevee

vote: pps strong town read I eevee.

[mcmcsalot]

Right now the two points that I like the most so far in the game have been brought up by PPS in regard to eevee and by axxle in regard to shraeye

I think I like the point about shraeye more than the point about eevee (the first point in PPS's post resonated, the rest seemed kinda like stretches) and shraeye has more votes...

so vote: shraeye

This is the fourth vote on shraeye, town read in shraeye, scum read on Yuma.

[mcmcsalot]

Oh they killed Andrew because after what raerae did and flipped scum he was obvi town...

[mcmcsalot]

Well, looks like raerae is Town...

Oh...my...scum...

[mcmcsalot]

Okay, so I think from all this that the wagon, IMO, is a scum wagon run up by scum. Scum who wanted to get their partner,  raerae, up on an early wagon so she wouldn't be suspected later in the game. This is because of how quickly it rose/fell. So, based on this, vote: raerae.

Pretty scummy in my opinion, I thin the raerae wagon was run up by town, this is mail-mi possibly bussing and wanting us to look at the wrong part of the wagon for sccum.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay, so I think from all this that the wagon, IMO, is a scum wagon run up by scum. Scum who wanted to get their partner,  raerae, up on an early wagon so she wouldn't be suspected later in the game. This is because of how quickly it rose/fell. So, based on this, vote: raerae.

So who are my partners, mail-mi?  Because everybody in the damn town was on that wagon with the exception of the two people who didn't happen to log in in that twelve hour time-span.  (And for those of you who need a raerae-translation, there was approximation and exaggeration utilized in that sentence.)  And what actually makes you think I'm scum, let's hear it.

Relevant, similar to her big post though I'm not sure if this is for or against mail-mi being scum.

[mcmcsalot]

So, here's a question, is anybody even going to listen to me or should I just hammer myself now?  There was no sarcasm there.  I'm not going to waste my time if you're not going to listen.

Oh boo hoo, we've got a victim. This is practically always a scumtell and even if it isn't nobody wants someone around who won't play their wincon.

Aaaand the non-voting bus.

[mcmcsalot]

Raerae reaching L-1 that fast makes her more likely to be town I think. I would have unvoted her had I realized I was on her.

vote: scott lack of contributions, seems to be playing it too safe.

Seems like a big deflection, slightly scummy.

[mcmcsalot]

Raerae reaching L-1 that fast makes her more likely to be town I think. I would have unvoted her had I realized I was on her.

vote: scott lack of contributions, seems to be playing it too safe.

The default position scum want to be is not on a wagon that generated a mislynch.

Right, still reading scum in Eevee and do not doubt Andrew is his partner. scotty is playing within his meta.

With the current information at hand I will not lynch raerae. Would lynch ADK.

This brings me back to town on eevee.

[mcmcsalot]

Stopping here, gotta get to work.
Scummy>townie
Scum: pps
Slight scum: mail-mi,  Adk, shraeye, Yuma
Slight town: axxle, robz, Scott, eevee

I think that's everybody, note the slight are pretty slight like a lot slight. Well the towns are a bit less slight.

[Axxle]

I think that scotty is probably town because that's the alternate raerae wagon yesterday. I was also going to say FTTW was pretty townie, but then I remembered he was dead, oops

But raerae didn't even glance in his direction.  There's a decent chance he's scum.

[Axxle]

Well, looks like raerae is Town...

Oh...my...scum...

Haha, I could do pps.

[mcmcsalot]

Well, looks like raerae is Town...

Oh...my...scum...

Haha, I could do pps.

baring night action confirmation, I will be voting pps today, and i really hope people see how scummy he is

[Robz888]

PPS is also very scummy.

[mcmcsalot]

PPS is also very scummy.

also?

[Axxle]

Vote: pps

I like this vote better. He's scummy for both his interactions with raerae and raerae's interactions with him. Yuma's only got his interactions with raerae.

[Axxle]

PPS is also very scummy.

also?

"Yuma is very scummy, PPS is also very scummy"

[mcmcsalot]

PPS is also very scummy.

also?

"Yuma is very scummy, PPS is also very scummy"

thanks

[shraeye]

yuma's better than pps.

[shraeye]

you ask further down what is the difference between tunneling and strongly believing... tunneling is when you take any case, any evidence, any post and manipulate it so that it looks scummy in your eyes (what apparently you wanted me to do...) strongly believing is when you can look at evidence objectively regardless of what you believe and try to make accurate decisions based off that. I strongly believed raerae was scum, but I ended up tunneling you. That is the difference. And I feel like you voted me because I wasn't tunneling which is just a horrible attitude to take if you ask me because tunneling rarely produces anything positive.

This isn't relevant.  I'm not saying that town yuma would manipulate whatever was available into saying raerae was scummy.  I'm saying townyuma wouldn't have been simultaneously reading scum on raerae, and giving people so many opportunities to look elsewhere.  Your idea of why I was voting you is not correct, but whatever makes it sound like I'm unreasonable, right?

[ashersky]

ash would we have been told if raerae was 1-shot?

All roles will flip as assigned.

[yuma]

Your idea of why I was voting you is not correct, but whatever makes it sound like I'm unreasonable, right?

HEY! I asked you to clarify yesterday and you refused and took a "holier than thou" approach instead so excuse me for not understanding it correctly according to you Mr. "I am too good to explain things to those who are so far beneath me superior mafia playing."

You want me to understand... you should answer my questions... not that expect you will... you aren't exactly known for your helpfulness...

[yuma]

I cannot believe you people ruined my birthday party.

BMO claim post one?

Vote: pingpongsam

This is actually still really scummy.

mcmc from what you said here and what you said after it looks like you got a scum read and then as you read everything that PPS you construed as scummy predicated on this initial read.

PPS is off wagon, so certainly worth looking at--and obviously far superior lynch to me--but I feel like you approached him with a set bias as you reread

[mcmcsalot]

I cannot believe you people ruined my birthday party.

BMO claim post one?

Vote: pingpongsam

This is actually still really scummy.

mcmc from what you said here and what you said after it looks like you got a scum read and then as you read everything that PPS you construed as scummy predicated on this initial read.

PPS is off wagon, so certainly worth looking at--and obviously far superior lynch to me--but I feel like you approached him with a set bias as you reread

I really don't think this was the case, if you look at my reread i flip flopped on lots of people, it just so happens pps has no redeeming town posts and lots of scummy posts.

[pingpongsam]

My flip flopping is scum bait. It's the Town meta I'm trying on this game. mcmc and robz seem to be taking it.

From earlier:

--------Would Lynch Reads:
Eevee
A Drowned Kernel
Yuma
--------Scummy Reads:
scott_pilgrim
Robz888
mcmcsalot
---------Null Reads:
mail-mi
shraeye
---------Town Reads:
Axxle
=========IC Reads:
pingpongsam

Revised:

--------Would Lynch Reads:
mcmcsalot
Robz888
Yuma
---------Null Reads:
A Drowned Kernel
scott_pilgrim
Eevee
mail-mi
---------Town Reads:
shraeye - demanded the raerae lynch in a very non-bussing sort of way
Axxle
=========IC Reads:
pingpongsam

Will be able to reread for a full post tonight because my ever loving flight got cancelled. Have to do the early morning hustle to get on a plane at 8am, though...

[Robz888]

I'm fine to lynch PPS or yuma. I'll pretty much want to lynch the other one tomorrow, regardless.

[pingpongsam]

I'm fine to lynch PPS or yuma. I'll pretty much want to lynch the other one tomorrow, regardless.

Total scum comment. Regardless of any new information you've zeroed in on who you are sure you can railroad into a mislynch.

[Robz888]

I'm fine to lynch PPS or yuma. I'll pretty much want to lynch the other one tomorrow, regardless.

Total scum comment. Regardless of any new information you've zeroed in on who you are sure you can railroad into a mislynch.

If town, please keep hyperbole in check so I can better evaluate you. If scum, stay the course.

[Eevee]

What Robz just said resonates with me very well.

PPS admitted himself he is trying a "flip flop strategy" in this game. Well, town doesn't lie, so if he is town, he has indeed decided that, but it makes him damn hard to read, when I have to be second-guessing myself at all times "is he doing that to be confusing, to be harder to read or does he actually think that". Axxle with often proclaiming things without posting his reasons is the same way for me.

So, I absolutely see how PPS is scummy, but a lot of it seems intentional and I struggle with that.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.3:

yuma (3): shraeye, mail-mi, Robz888
PPS (2): mcmcsalot, Axxle

Not Voting (5): Eevee, scott_pilgrim, yuma, A Drowned Kernel, pingpongsam

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:45 p.m. on March 14, 2014.

[Eevee]

This is where I stand:

Closest to wanting to lynch:
ADK, PPS, yuma, Axxle

Don't wan't to lynch right now:
Robz, mcmcsalot, scott, mail-mi, shraeye


I just reread ADK, and voting behavor wise he does make sense for raerae's partner. He has also been playing it very safe, asking questions, poking holes into some theories without really making many waves. I know I was voting for scott most of yesterday, but that's mostly because I thought raerae couldn't be scum when everyone was suspecting her, and now that we know she was scum, I actually think scott is likelier to be town, so ADK deflecting (..helping me to deflect..) away from raerae towards scott in post #515) is scummy towards me.(Axxle gets scum points for this same thing).

[shraeye]

I'm fine to lynch PPS or yuma. I'll pretty much want to lynch the other one tomorrow, regardless.

Total scum comment. Regardless of any new information you've zeroed in on who you are sure you can railroad into a mislynch.

No, I'm getting consistent townread on Robz.  It might be my towniest read.  Him, scotty, and PPS.  towniest reads right there.

[shraeye]

This is where I stand:

Closest to wanting to lynch:
ADK, PPS, yuma, Axxle

Don't wan't to lynch right now:
Robz, mcmcsalot, scott, mail-mi, shraeye


I just reread ADK, and voting behavor wise he does make sense for raerae's partner. He has also been playing it very safe, asking questions, poking holes into some theories without really making many waves.

Yueah, This almost nearly matches my list.

Absolute scum; no question: yuma
likely scum: ADK, Axxle
eh, scum?:mcmcsalot
eh, town?: mailmi, Eevee
Town peeps: Robz, scotty, PPS

[Robz888]

This is where I stand:

Closest to wanting to lynch:
ADK, PPS, yuma, Axxle

Don't wan't to lynch right now:
Robz, mcmcsalot, scott, mail-mi, shraeye


I just reread ADK, and voting behavor wise he does make sense for raerae's partner. He has also been playing it very safe, asking questions, poking holes into some theories without really making many waves.

Yueah, This almost nearly matches my list.

Absolute scum; no question: yuma
likely scum: ADK, Axxle
eh, scum?:mcmcsalot
eh, town?: mailmi, Eevee
Town peeps: Robz, scotty, PPS

Switch PPS and Axxle, and I agree.

[yuma]

My flip flopping is scum bait. It's the Town meta I'm trying on this game. mcmc and robz seem to be taking it.

Yuck? Why? Like what purpose is this supposed to serve? How does it help anyone but yourself?

[yuma]

Absolute scum; no question: yuma

Do you have a result you want to make up and share with the rest of us? Because I absolutely have a question about this. You might think you are sure, but you are not absolutely sure, so don't say that you are.

[Robz888]

Absolute scum; no question: yuma

Do you have a result you want to make up and share with the rest of us? Because I absolutely have a question about this. You might think you are sure, but you are not absolutely sure, so don't say that you are.

Shraeye, don't answer that question.

[yuma]

Absolute scum; no question: yuma

Do you have a result you want to make up and share with the rest of us? Because I absolutely have a question about this. You might think you are sure, but you are not absolutely sure, so don't say that you are.

Shraeye, don't answer that question.

I didn't expect him to answer obviously. But the problem remains of people overstating (100% sure, absolute scum, no question, etc, etc) their reads with no concrete, mod given information to back it up and that is a problem and has been a problem and will probably continue to be a problem until people learn to actually think for a second that they could possibly be wrong about something...

Or maybe that is the secret to winning at mafia? Cause if so that would explain why I have been losing so much... trying to be open and not bullheaded about my reads? Well either way, shraeye is wrong here, so it obviously isn't going to be successful here

[mcmcsalot]

yea i strongly dislike the fact that shraeye has my highest scum read as a town read and someone i am not confident on either way as absolute scum...

[pingpongsam]

My flip flopping is scum bait. It's the Town meta I'm trying on this game. mcmc and robz seem to be taking it.

Yuck? Why? Like what purpose is this supposed to serve? How does it help anyone but yourself?

I don't see how it helps me because it certainly puts me in great danger of a mislynch. The question has to be asked, though, what scum down to 2 on D2 is going to put themselves in great danger of a lynch?

I could state the truest purpose but it would defeat that purpose.

[pingpongsam]

yea i strongly dislike the fact that shraeye has my highest scum read as a town read and someone i am not confident on either way as absolute scum...

There's no way shraeye is scum. so, why do you dislike this so strongly? That seems scummy to me as if your agenda is being threatened. I don't see why Town should feel committed to any wagon or theory right now.

[yuma]

I don't see how it helps me because it certainly puts me in great danger of a mislynch. The question has to be asked, though, what scum down to 2 on D2 is going to put themselves in great danger of a lynch?

I could state the truest purpose but it would defeat that purpose.

Of course it helps you!

If you are scum then it helps sow confusion about your alignment. Note that you only brought up your new, edgy playstyle once you had received some heat regarding your flip flopping. This obviously only helps you and your team.

If you are town it only helps you as only you know your alignment and know that what you are doing. The rest of us have to, as Eevee says, "second guess ourselves at all time" regarding you. You say that you are doing this to see if people will take the bait. How do you know that the players taking the bait are scum? Why would scum or town react any different to you when you are in fact doing something scummy? Town wants to lynch scum, scum wants to get town to lynch scummy people.

So yes, the question should be asked about scum down a scum day2. That is a valid question, but again I mention that you only brought this up as an excuse for the behavior that people were calling you out on.

So, yeah the game is up. I think you had better tell us what your ultimate purpose was in totality because I think the purpose is already defeated and was defeated from the start.

[pingpongsam]

yuma is fishing

[pingpongsam]

I'm halfway through my full re-read and ADK looks more scummy, mcmc looks less scummy, Axxle is less Towny and Robz is WAY more towny. Robz is playing a similar game to me in that it's more about eliciting a reaction.

[yuma]

yuma is fishing

That is ridiculous. I don't role fish. I have never role fished and never will role fish.

I am not interested in what ever you are talking about in terms of your role. What I am talking about is that you are running a gambit

My flip flopping is scum bait. It's the Town meta I'm trying on this game. mcmc and robz seem to be taking it.

that as far as I can tell is being done regardless of your role (not alignment... role) or lack of role.

What it looks like you are doing is...

1. being called out for flip flopping
2. justifying your flipping via some sort of baiting process
3. getting called out for baiting
4. trying to flip the suspicion to me for calling you out on it by saying that I am role fishing

vote: PPS

[pingpongsam]

Well the play is all about obscuring where the PR is. yuma appears to be voting me because he thinks he found a PR because I mentioned fishing which is what he was doing.

[pingpongsam]

yuma sees it as me or him today. gotta make it me, right?

[yuma]

Well the play is all about obscuring where the PR is. yuma appears to be voting me because he thinks he found a PR because I mentioned fishing which is what he was doing.

What the hell are you talking about?

I never said anything about PRs... you are purposely obfuscating whatever it is you are doing which does benefits to no one and have been consistently doing it after being called out my someone for doing something scummy.

You are being scummy and then trying to either justify that scumminess or deflecting the scumminess away.

[yuma]

yuma sees it as me or him today. gotta make it me, right?

I don't see it that way at all! Do you?

You versus me conversations are never beneficial to town. Right now I see it as you are better than everyone else

[pingpongsam]

--------Would Lynch Reads:
ADK - scum written all over him on the reread.
Yuma - only slight chance in my mind yuma is not scum but the notion is there
---------Scum Reads:
Axxle - quite scummy D1, especially with the vote shuffling towards the end, i think he is playing a great scum game if he is scum
---------Null Reads:
mcmcsalot - overall scummy but the way he voted raerae just doesn't look like scum
scott_pilgrim -true null
Eevee - true null
mail-mi - null leaning town, very absent
---------Town Reads:
Robz - Totally townRobz on reread
shraeye - demanded the raerae lynch in a very non-bussing sort of way
=========IC Reads:
pingpongsam

I see I am strongly in agreement with shraeye, here.

[pingpongsam]

Well the play is all about obscuring where the PR is. yuma appears to be voting me because he thinks he found a PR because I mentioned fishing which is what he was doing.

What the hell are you talking about?

I never said anything about PRs... you are purposely obfuscating whatever it is you are doing which does benefits to no one and have been consistently doing it after being called out my someone for doing something scummy.

You are being scummy and then trying to either justify that scumminess or deflecting the scumminess away.

I think there is place between Towny and scummy and that is where I am. I understand the idea that scummy is anything not towny but today I reject that idea. I am not being scummy at all. I'm not being particularly towny either. Scum has to have an angle to work and needs people to buy their ideas or a bad idea they can buy into themselves.

Nobody is buying what I'm selling and I'm not buying anything anyone else is selling so I'm definitively not scum. I am not deflecting. I am entirely owning my behavior. My behavior is explicitly designed to elicit reactions and fishing both of which you have exhibited.

I do see it as yuma or somebody and I think you do to. I am the easiest somebody to select and you were weak to have selected me.

[Axxle]

You're both ridiculous

[pingpongsam]

You're both ridiculous

Vote: ADK

[yuma]

Well the play is all about obscuring where the PR is. yuma appears to be voting me because he thinks he found a PR because I mentioned fishing which is what he was doing.

What the hell are you talking about?

I never said anything about PRs... you are purposely obfuscating whatever it is you are doing which does benefits to no one and have been consistently doing it after being called out my someone for doing something scummy.

You are being scummy and then trying to either justify that scumminess or deflecting the scumminess away.

I think there is place between Towny and scummy and that is where I am. I understand the idea that scummy is anything not towny but today I reject that idea. I am not being scummy at all. I'm not being particularly towny either. Scum has to have an angle to work and needs people to buy their ideas or a bad idea they can buy into themselves.

Nobody is buying what I'm selling and I'm not buying anything anyone else is selling so I'm definitively not scum. I am not deflecting. I am entirely owning my behavior. My behavior is explicitly designed to elicit reactions and fishing both of which you have exhibited.

I do see it as yuma or somebody and I think you do to. I am the easiest somebody to select and you were weak to have selected me.

In the words of Jim the Duck...


WHAT THE HELL?

[yuma]

I give up. I am going on vacation and I won't be back until Monday. Lynch me, NK me, what ever, let me live until tomorrow... I don't know if I really care anymore.

Maybe when I get back I'll care, but I sure as hell don't right now.

[scott_pilgrim]

PPS, you have to agree that if you were looking at this from an outside perspective, it just looks bad to defend your play by saying "I can't tell you why I did it".  That would be such an easy excuse to give as scum, because it requires zero explanation.  And I can't think of a situation where you would say that as town.  And then you try to flip it on yuma as "fishing".  I still think yuma is scummy, but his points are still legitimate.  You can't expect us to trust everything you say, if you just say "I have reasons I can't share" of course we're going to question.  I don't think it is ever to town's advantage to say something like that, because saying that makes people assume you're scum, and if you're actually not scum, then it is more likely to cause a mislynch, which is bad for town.

So I guess I'll just say, if you are town and you actually believe that it is best for you to not explain yourself, even taking into account the fact that it increases our chances of lynching you, then you can go ahead and keep doing that.  But at least don't act surprised when people pressure you for that.

[pingpongsam]

I guess I'm confused about the part where I stated what I was doing.

Let me do it again.

The purpose of the behavior was to elicit a scum inquisition into the possibility I am a PR which ultimately obfuscates where a PR is because the only sure fire way to get the information is to drive for my lynch. AFAICT it worked.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.4:

yuma (3): shraeye, mail-mi, Robz888
PPS (3): mcmcsalot, Axxle, yuma
A Drowned Kernel (1): pingpongsam

Not Voting (3): Eevee, scott_pilgrim, A Drowned Kernel

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:45 p.m. on March 14, 2014.

[shraeye]

You are being scummy and then trying to either justify that scumminess or deflecting the scumminess away.

PPS, you have to agree that if you were looking at this from an outside perspective, it just looks bad to defend your play by saying "I can't tell you why I did it".  That would be such an easy excuse to give as scum, because it requires zero explanation.  And I can't think of a situation where you would say that as town.  And then you try to flip it on yuma as "fishing".  I still think yuma is scummy, but his points are still legitimate.  You can't expect us to trust everything you say, if you just say "I have reasons I can't share" of course we're going to question.  I don't think it is ever to town's advantage to say something like that, because saying that makes people assume you're scum, and if you're actually not scum, then it is more likely to cause a mislynch, which is bad for town.

So I guess I'll just say, if you are town and you actually believe that it is best for you to not explain yourself, even taking into account the fact that it increases our chances of lynching you, then you can go ahead and keep doing that.  But at least don't act surprised when people pressure you for that.

Everybody be doing scummy things from time to time.  I think that scum is actually more likely to cook up an 'explanation' that they deliver calmly and sounds really rational, and that town is more likely to go "yeah, i can't explain that, it's just what I did but don't vote for me."  It's like when there are competing claims, and scum's is neat and in a package with a bow, and all their night-actions make sense.  And town is just a stumble-fest of unreasonableness.

PPSs all-over-the-place-ness and self-reflection ("I thought I would catch more flak for that") is definitely one thing that's giving me the town read on him.

[Robz888]

I think a longer day will just diminish my clarity of purpose. We are lynching yuma. We are lynching PPS tomorrow, irrespective of yuma's flip, unless new evidence (read: night actions) acquits him for some reason. I've had quite enough of not being heeded after I'm dead (read: Chocoloate Factory!!!!), so if I don't make it to tomorrow, well, there you go.

Please, other members of the town, vote for Yuma at this time.

-----
And yuma, I am truly sorry you are frustrated. I totally, totally believe that you are frustrated, regardless of your alignment. You have a rough couple of games mostly because of bad luck, and if you are scum, you are losing here almost entirely because of bad luck (that we actually latched onto--and then powered through--a Day 1 scum lynch).

In fact, I think this is the most likely explanation for what's triggering your frustration, so, furhter evidence. Sorry about that!

If you're town, though, cheer up man. Town is in a pretty good position and can easily survive your mislynch (and basically has to lynch you at some point, based off your raerae interactions alone).

[mcmcsalot]

I give up. I am going on vacation and I won't be back until Monday. Lynch me, NK me, what ever, let me live until tomorrow... I don't know if I really care anymore.

Maybe when I get back I'll care, but I sure as hell don't right now.

Woah this sounds like scum Yuma, just sayin.

[mcmcsalot]

@robz why not pps first we already have 3 votes on him I believe and he is so so so so scummy

[Robz888]

Because we have 3 votes on yuma, too. And I say yuma first. Yuma is scummier.

[mcmcsalot]

Because we have 3 votes on yuma, too. And I say yuma first. Yuma is scummier.

Bleh I dunno, I have a hard time thinking we got all 3 scum day 2 and I really think pps is scum, I guess it's silly to think that way though.

[Robz888]

Because we have 3 votes on yuma, too. And I say yuma first. Yuma is scummier.

Bleh I dunno, I have a hard time thinking we got all 3 scum day 2 and I really think pps is scum, I guess it's silly to think that way though.

I think he's scum too but yuma is definitely scum.

Vote, please.

[Eevee]

how many votes someone has shouldn't matter at all, we have plenty of time and people to lynch anyone.

I honestly think ADK might be the scummiest, I'm trying to avoid reading towniness to yuma's frustration but can't help it. also, what he did WAS kind I clumsy for scum and so many people jumped onto it so fast.

PPS is weird, weird is not always scummy. robz is definitely a town read though.

vote: adk

[Robz888]

I don't want to hear anything more about yuma not being scum. I'm literally sticking my fingers in my ears when I read anything of that sort. It's not helpful, sorry, because it's never going to overcome the overwhelming notion I have that he is scum. And I know there's another scum out there--maybe PPS, maybe someone else--who essentially NEEDS to convince me not to lynch yuma today.

Don't be that person's advocate (if you're not that person).

Furthermore, I think yuma's frustration is much, much, much more likely to be coming from scum. Because his position is more frustrating for him if he's scum than if he's town. if he's town it's annoying but whatever, he should understand we have to lynch him and we will still be in fine shape.

[Eevee]

vote: yuma

[Robz888]

Thanks.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.5:

yuma (4): shraeye, mail-mi, Robz888, Eevee
PPS (3): mcmcsalot, Axxle, yuma
A Drowned Kernel (1): pingpongsam

Not Voting (2): scott_pilgrim, A Drowned Kernel

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:45 p.m. on March 14, 2014.

[Axxle]

Vote: yuma

[Axxle]

L-1

[Eevee]

Yuma, if you are still reading, will you be claiming?

[ashersky]

Vote Count 2.6:

yuma (5): shraeye, mail-mi, Robz888, Eevee, Axxle
PPS (2): mcmcsalot, yuma
A Drowned Kernel (1): pingpongsam

Not Voting (2): scott_pilgrim, A Drowned Kernel

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch.

Day 2 ends at 4:45 p.m. on March 14, 2014.

[Axxle]

Pps if you could hammer, that'd be great /meme

[A Drowned Kernel]

It's very tempting to hammer, as I do find Yuma fairly scummy and I think his flip would be informative. I also feel like I'm the worst person for it, given everyone's level of suspicion on me. But can anyone give me a reason why it would be bad for town in general, and not just for me? Otherwise intent to hammer

[Axxle]

Do it! I promise to not lynch you*.

*Promise not guaranteed.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'll give it 'til tomorrow morning, see if anything comes up.

[Axxle]

Adk, where do you live anyway?

[Axxle]

(Wondering your time zone)

[Eevee]

yuma should be given time to possibly claim role/results before hammering.

[pingpongsam]

Let me get this straight : hammer yuma because Robz said so then kill me because Robz said so. If yuma is town we get royally fucked by this plan.

Intent to hammer though

[pingpongsam]

I don't see what information a claim gives us the flip doesn't and if yuma must be scum it will be a lie anyhow. I have a plane to board, Vote : yuma

[A Drowned Kernel]

Axxle, US central for future reference.

[mcmcsalot]

I don't see what information a claim gives us the flip doesn't and if yuma must be scum it will be a lie anyhow. I have a plane to board, Vote : yuma

Well we had plenty of time to wait for Yuma to get back. To give reads as well, I don't like that we rushed this.

[mail-mi]

Well that was eventful. Not sure if I liked the yuma lynch before PPS, but whatevs, he was very scummty from rearea interactions yesterday.

[pingpongsam]

If yuma flips town I'm the obvious lynch tomorrow which will be terrible. If he flips scum I obviously prefer to live but am fine with taking one for the team since we will be in Super shape for a mislynch. Can anyone describe the utility in hearing a claim from yuma today?

[pingpongsam]

Also ADK's reluctant ITH looks scummy to me regardless how yuma might flip.

[Axxle]

Why would you guys listen to drunk axxle?

[scott_pilgrim]

Can anyone describe the utility in hearing a claim from yuma today?

Well, you know, if he actually is a cop or whatever, it would be nice to hear any results.  It's pretty unlikely but I don't think we needed to hammer that fast...

[Robz888]

I should say I think I (and maybe shraeye) are most likely to die tonight, and any Doctors should plan accordingly.

[mcmcsalot]

I should say I think I (and maybe shraeye) are most likely to die tonight, and any Doctors should plan accordingly.

This is unhelpful.

[Robz888]

I should say I think I (and maybe shraeye) are most likely to die tonight, and any Doctors should plan accordingly.

This is unhelpful.

Because it makes it harder for you to shoot me tonight?

[mcmcsalot]

I should say I think I (and maybe shraeye) are most likely to die tonight, and any Doctors should plan accordingly.

This is unhelpful.

Because it makes it harder for you to shoot me tonight?

No because it makes it harder for everyone to decide everything except you, and since your not confirmed town it's unhelpful.

[Eevee]

If yuma flips town I'm the obvious lynch tomorrow which will be terrible. If he flips scum I obviously prefer to live but am fine with taking one for the team since we will be in Super shape for a mislynch. Can anyone describe the utility in hearing a claim from yuma today?

Well, if he is a tracker his results would be kind of useful don't you think?

[A Drowned Kernel]

There's no possibility for Tracker in this setup. The only PR with a result to report is Cop, and if he was a cop and had gotten a guilty result he probably would have said so earlier.

[Robz888]

There's no possibility for Tracker in this setup. The only PR with a result to report is Cop, and if he was a cop and had gotten a guilty result he probably would have said so earlier.

Good point. That means Eevee committed a townslip. Hooray, Eevee! Welcome to the good guys team.

[mcmcsalot]

There's no possibility for Tracker in this setup. The only PR with a result to report is Cop, and if he was a cop and had gotten a guilty result he probably would have said so earlier.

Good point. That means Eevee committed a townslip. Hooray, Eevee! Welcome to the good guys team.

Yay!

[mcmcsalot]

Though not surprising, hopefully pps and Yuma are the last scum.

[scott_pilgrim]

Really?  That's super easy for scum to fake.  I think Eevee's townslip is pretty much null for me...

[Robz888]

Can I get a thread lock in here? We hammered, didn't we? Enough muddying the end of day waters.

[Robz888]

Yuma = Lynched scum
PPS = Partner, hopefully
Mcmc = Suspicious

Shraeye = Obvtown (as long as yuma flips scum)
Robz88 = Innocent Child (If you are the Doctor, protect him)

[mcmcsalot]

Yuma = Lynched scum
PPS = Partner, hopefully
Mcmc = Suspicious

Shraeye = Obvtown (as long as yuma flips scum)
Robz88 = Innocent Child (If you are the Doctor, protect him)

Why am I suspicious? Just wondering.

[Robz888]

You have flailed wildly today. You tried to subtly shift the lynch away from yuma. You spoke out against me several times.

[Robz888]

^And those are all things scum needed to attempt today.

[mcmcsalot]

^And those are all things scum needed to attempt today.

Hold on are you factoring pps being town into your thoughts of me being suspicious, because then I get it. But if you think pps is scum you should not find me suspicious because I have a stronger scum read of pps then Yuma...

[mcmcsalot]

Also that's all the scum...I feel like your just muddying me up which is bad if your town and a goal if your scum(since that would mean pps is town and I'm going to look scummy all day)

[Robz888]

If PPS isn't scum, I think it's you, correct.

[Robz888]

But really I don't want have this conversation right now. Or any other. Flip please?

[pingpongsam]

^And those are all things scum needed to attempt today.

Thus I am obvscum how?

[pingpongsam]

That yuma hasn't posted is a great sign.

[Robz888]

It is a great sign. You aren't obvscum but you are definitely the leading scum candidate, and if yuma IS scum we can afford like a million mislynches, starting with you, then mcmc, etc.

[Axxle]

But really I don't want have this conversation right now. Or any other. Flip please?

Isn't ash one of those Australian blokes? Probably just getting up.

[ashersky]

Thread locked.

[ashersky]

Day 2 Final Vote Count:

yuma (6): shraeye, mail-mi, Robz888, Eevee, Axxle, pingpongsam
PPS (2): mcmcsalot, yuma

Not Voting (2): scott_pilgrim, A Drowned Kernel

With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

[ashersky]

Everyone was sooooo sure of themselves, now that they had figured out the way to solve this terrible mystery.  After all, the Ice King had been evil, and they kicked him out of the party right away!  So there was little discussion today.

"It's her!  That big, long horse girl!  She was just a little too nice to the Ice King," someone yelled.

They were talking about Lady Rainicorn.  She looked at them sideways, a bit upset and huffy to be pointed at like that.  "Well I never!  What a horrible thing to say.  You know, I don't even want to be at your party anymore, Finn!  I have to go to visit my friend the Princess of VLAnd anyway.  You won't hear from me for days!"  Lady Rainicorn was headed for the door.

"Oh no you don't!  You are drinking this first!"  Finn rushed at Lady Rainicorn and made her drink the brown goo...

yuma, inhabiting the body of Lady Rainicorn, has been sent to sleepy town!  He was the Mafia Godfather!

[ashersky]

Night 2 has begun.  Night actions are due in 24 hours.  Day Three will begin 24 hours (or so) after that.

[ashersky]

Night action submission deadline has passed.  Day 3 in 24 hours.

[ashersky]

It was another nice night of sleep in the treehouse, what with one more bad guy removed from the party.  Everyone was feeling pretty great about things when the sun came up.

Everyone, that is, except The Lich.

Thing is, he was gone.  The Lich is pretty big, so his body not being immediately noticed was somewhat odd.  Jake and Finn took a look at the door, and saw Smudge standing there.

"He's ours now, man.  This dude knows just a little too much about...apples."

Eevee, inhabiting the body of The Lich, was removed from the party at night!  He was a Cop!

[ashersky]

Day 3 has begun.  It ends in 10 days.

[pingpongsam]

Son of Balls!. We needed the cop so effing bad and I am almost certain he copped me last night which was exactly the plan to get some ICs on board for the win. Now we just have a disheveled mess.

I'm not 100% Robz isn't scum. His early play looks awfully Towny but his must lynch PPS position has me on edge. I would not put it past Robz to bus both his partners D1 and D2 but at this point I won't lynch him because I think there are way better possibilities.

The only good news from the Eevee flip is that he was one of the remaining players I was really on the fence about. scotty is the other one.

Vote: ADK

I feel he is practically certain to be scum.

Really bummed our copped got sniped because his results today were going to win this game for us.

[pingpongsam]

I had prepared a rebuttal to Robz' lynch PPS position but had become certain we were gonna get cop results today and I was certain I'd get copped and no way Mafia would NK me because I am the easy mislynch today.

I will work on repositing my reasons why autolynching me is not a good idea because I am clearly not the one behaving as scum, just erratically.

Also, I will reiterate a clear case on ADK, I know it began with looking off-wagon D1 and an earlier re-read pushed him to the top of my list. I remember Eevee was interested in an ADK lynch and I think that might be why he was chosen for the NK.

[Axxle]

Vote: PPS

Robz is confirmed

robz is definitely a town read though.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: PPS

Robz is confirmed

robz is definitely a town read though.

Good pick up on Eevee's Robz result. That doesn't mean I am for sure scum, though. Show me the outright, condemning scum has to do what PPS did here behavior. AFAIK it doesn't exist. Yes, I've been erratic and the point was to get copped and to also get a full read on yuma one of which succeeded.

Firing up the wagon on me at this point doesn't draw scum out, hell that scum can easily stay off the wagon as easy as I can be lynched today. So flipping me just loses the flawless win there is no information to be gained.

[pingpongsam]

Okay, I reread ADK and with the informationw e have from the current flips he's the final scum, there is no doubt. His negotaition of the D1 raerae wagon has scum wirtten all over it. His reads list cover his partners. His reluctance to hammer yuma was a disheartened recognition that he might have to do it for the cred and pray he can make the rest of the game alone.

My negotiation of yuma yesterday makes ZERO SENSE for me to do as his scum partner. Sure, the final hammer for cred but the whole antagonizing thing I did?! No way yuma's remaining scum partner plays that way. Robz appears to be copped by Eevee so I'm saying he has tunnel goggles on. I want to see some damn good explanation for how Town thinks I am yuma's partner after yesterday's display.

If you just have to see my flip then please, for god's sakes, kill ADK tomorrow.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.1:

ADK (1): pingpongsam
PPS (1): Axxle

Not Voting (6): scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kernel, shraeye

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends at 5:20 p.m. on Wednesday, March 19.

[shraeye]

Vote: PPS

Robz is confirmed

robz is definitely a town read though.

why vote PPS?

[Axxle]

Isn't that what we talked about yesterday?

I might reread scott though.

[mcmcsalot]

Vote: PPS

Robz is confirmed

robz is definitely a town read though.

why vote PPS?

Yesss, vote: pps

[mcmcsalot]

Re quoting my whole case on pps from yesterday.

I cannot believe you people ruined my birthday party.

BMO claim post one?

Vote: pingpongsam

Right, flavor names have zero to do with alignment because of the goo or something. So, yeah, I'm BMO and you continue to ruin my party for completely unsound reasons like not having paid any attention to what is going on around here. You know who doesn't need to pay much attention? scumbags.

Vote: Axxle

Yup really scummy.

I think we should lynch one of the new guys just to help him grow the thick skin he's gonna need moving forward.

Vote: Andrew

Aha! And then Andrew dies, what was that about suspicion early means they wot get lynched later?

Pps and Yuma/robz remaining scum?(they are the huge omg early suspicions makes you invicible)

I think we should lynch one of the new guys just to help him grow the thick skin he's gonna need moving forward.

Vote: Andrew

Somewhat of a townread on PPS based off this post. A desire to kill off newbies has often resulted in the vet pushing the townie instead being lynched. As such I don't think scum would risk sticking their neck out like this (even as a joke..., which I think this probably is?)

So Yuma pps, not robz...

I really like the way Andrew is thinking, but "trying to see if anyone else thought this could be scummy" is definitely a scumtell.

This quip caught my eye. On the face of it is a simple banter with the new guy. But to me I felt a twinge of either scum!Eevee working a town!Andrew or scum!Eevee dancing with a scum!Andrew.

This twinged again when I saw:

I really like the way Andrew is thinking, but "trying to see if anyone else thought this could be scummy" is definitely a scumtell.

It is?

Yes. Looking for validation, or throwing dirt around and waiting to see what sticks until committing to it is natural for mafia, as they want to lynch anyone but one of their own.

It twinged again. Mild suspicion casting, casual interchange keeps the post count up, appear to be moving thee gam forward banter, hmmm.

And then:

Sure, others can weigh in on if what I described would be scummy in their eyes. Either way, I think it is. 

Anyways, what you did was obviously a very mild version of it, as you might have noticed I didn't even vote you for it. Maybe I shouldn't have said anything yet and kept an eye out on if whether you continue to do it before "warning you", but my I didn't think it far enough at the time I guess.

Actual confirmation of what the twinge was saying.

And finally:

Don't be! Way better than no conversation.

Direct confirmation that this might well be all about appearances.

Vote: Eevee

vote: pps strong town read I eevee.

Well, looks like raerae is Town...

Oh...my...scum...

So, here's a question, is anybody even going to listen to me or should I just hammer myself now?  There was no sarcasm there.  I'm not going to waste my time if you're not going to listen.

Oh boo hoo, we've got a victim. This is practically always a scumtell and even if it isn't nobody wants someone around who won't play their wincon.

Aaaand the non-voting bus.

Raerae reaching L-1 that fast makes her more likely to be town I think. I would have unvoted her had I realized I was on her.

vote: scott lack of contributions, seems to be playing it too safe.

The default position scum want to be is not on a wagon that generated a mislynch.

Right, still reading scum in Eevee and do not doubt Andrew is his partner. scotty is playing within his meta.

With the current information at hand I will not lynch raerae. Would lynch ADK.

This brings me back to town on eevee.

I was positive pps was scum yesterday, still positive.

[shraeye]

I was not positive yesterday.  Still not positive.  Axxle, what's the reason?

[Robz888]

Excellent, all excellent. I think we pretty much can't lose now.

Vote: PPS

If PPS flips town, I definitely think mcmc is the next choice for scum. After that, I would give some consideration to PPS's case on ADK, I suppose.

[scott_pilgrim]

I could see PPS as scum but I think it's much more likely ADK, he's played the whole game safe until the very end of yesterday where he intends to hammer yuma, but I think at that point he realizes he has to for town cred.  Again, his D1 RVS vote for raerae and then quickly jumping off the wagon when it hits L-1 still looks bad, nothing has happened to change that.  But then D2 when people bring it up, he basically says "either you believe me or you don't", which isn't how I would expect town to respond (I would expect more frustration, but maybe that's just how I would be in that position).  His intent to hammer yuma is totally what I would expect from scum, that's not to say town couldn't do it too, but the fact that he does it even acknowledging that it would look bad if he hammers and yuma flips town makes me think he was really going for town cred.

vote: A Drowned Kernel

[Robz888]

I guess, one thing to consider with PPS... he was super, super, super willing to bus when he was scum in Diffusion of Power. Even on Day 1. If he's scum here, he was NOT willing to bus on Day 1.

[pingpongsam]

Excellent, all excellent. I think we pretty much can't lose now.

Vote: PPS

If PPS flips town, I definitely think mcmc is the next choice for scum. After that, I would give some consideration to PPS's case on ADK, I suppose.

I can see this working out. Can we please try ADK first, though?

Can anyone postulate why Eevee was the NK? I think it points to ADK since he was the only other one truly looking into the ADK lynch yesterday.

[pingpongsam]

I have to admit that I am tunneling ADK about as hard as the rest of the game is tunneling me. Robz, can you post your points on mcmc and why you prioritize him over ADK?

[Robz888]

I don't think the Eevee kill is super, super surprising. Either scum correctly guessed he was Cop (possibly off of the thing Axxle mentioned), or just knew, well, they needed the kill to go through, and he was one of the people not likely to be protected, but also not likely to be a huge suspect.

[Robz888]

I'll try to post my case on mcmc a little later tonight, but if you look back you can basically see everything I have to say about it. I think mcmc was trying to distract from the yuma lynch most aggressively, while nominally supporting it.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.2:

ADK (2): pingpongsam, scott_pilgrim
PPS (3): Axxle, mcmcsalot, Robz888

Not Voting (3): mail-mi, A Drowned Kernel, shraeye

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends at 5:20 p.m. on Wednesday, March 19.

[pingpongsam]

I'll try to post my case on mcmc a little later tonight, but if you look back you can basically see everything I have to say about it. I think mcmc was trying to distract from the yuma lynch most aggressively, while nominally supporting it.

I'll add that he is the most fervent supporter of my lynch as well. Although, that ADK is so far absent (which may just be him not visiting the thread yet) strikes me as more telling. The scum who pushes for my lynch knowing I flip Town is going to get it later so it behooves them to let town do the dirty work for a couple days.

Robz, why are you prioritizing me ahead of the other guys? Yeah, my play has been highly erratic, but where was it downright scummy?

I'll be responding to mcmc's case tomorrow afternoon, I've had a lot going on this weekend. Please don't lynch me until I have A) responded to mcmc and B) had a chance to do an L-1 claim. At L-2 I already feel L-1 because another Town vote and scum can hammer me (ahem, ADK).

[Axxle]

I was not positive yesterday.  Still not positive.  Axxle, what's the reason?

On autopilot right now, I know I wanted to lynch him yesterday and that's good enough.

Been thinking about a massclaim but that probably won't work since there's still a roleblocker?

[shraeye]

Excellent, all excellent. I think we pretty much can't lose now.

Vote: PPS

If PPS flips town, I definitely think mcmc is the next choice for scum. After that, I would give some consideration to PPS's case on ADK, I suppose.

I can see this working out. Can we please try ADK first, though?

Can anyone postulate why Eevee was the NK? I think it points to ADK since he was the only other one truly looking into the ADK lynch yesterday.

I think there wasn't any controversy around eevee like there is around other players.  Additionally, there were many players that seemed obvtown to one person or another, so perhaps mafia was trying to kill the most non-descript person assuming that PRs would want to hang out in that area.

[shraeye]

I was not positive yesterday.  Still not positive.  Axxle, what's the reason?

On autopilot right now, I know I wanted to lynch him yesterday and that's good enough.

Been thinking about a massclaim but that probably won't work since there's still a roleblocker?

there's a roleblocker??

Vote: axxle

[pingpongsam]

Okay, i looked over mcmc's case on me. It's piecemeal and disregards the additional context of my overall strategy which, btw, has been quite effective in exposing scum despite making me look insane. all it confirms is he has tunnel vision.

I think his hard press on me is a slight town tell. Scum knows I'm flipping town. I think both Robz and mcmc will be voting one another once I flip. Who is avoiding the spotlight in this fallout...

[mail-mi]

I was not positive yesterday.  Still not positive.  Axxle, what's the reason?

On autopilot right now, I know I wanted to lynch him yesterday and that's good enough.

Been thinking about a massclaim but that probably won't work since there's still a roleblocker?

there's a roleblocker??

Vote: axxle

um yeah look at the setup. If there's a strongman, there's a roleblocker. Don't vote axxle for reading the setup, plz.

[mail-mi]

i think that, because wagons, ADK fits the bill of newbie scum perfectly.

PPS's constant fighting with yuma doesn't make him townie, but makes him less scummy, so I think I'm going to go with vote: adk

[A Drowned Kernel]

Been thinking about a massclaim but that probably won't work since there's still a roleblocker?

If I understand the rules correctly the roleblocker can't use their power and make the night kill in the same night so there isn't much danger, right?

I'm perfectly fine to vote for PPS. His whole "I was actually lying to set a trap for scum" thing seems shady to me, his hammer of Yuma looks like scum making a desperation move, and his references to Eevee read to me like he knew getting me lynched today was his only hope of survival, so he killed a person that was voicing suspicion of me so he could set up that argument.

Vote: PPS

@Scott I don't feel like people are generally swayed by emotional arguments in these things so I try not to make them. I acknowledge that my unvote on Day One looks scummy, and my explanation for them now is the same one that I made then, which was my wariness of a quickly forming wagon. That wariness showed through again with my intent to hammer yesterday. Given the results of this game I'm obviously re-evaluating my stance on that.

[A Drowned Kernel]

That's L-1 sorry forgot to say.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.3:

ADK (3): pingpongsam, scott_pilgrim, mail-mi
PPS (4): Axxle, mcmcsalot, Robz888, A Drowned Kernel
Axxle (1): shraeye

Not Voting (0):

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends at 5:20 p.m. on Wednesday, March 19.

[Robz888]

Actually, Unvote.

[Robz888]

I'm unvoting so there's no mistakes here.

PPS is still my choice for lynch, but I want him to have a chance to claim. And none of this, "I'm not claiming" nonsense. If you don't claim, you die for sure.

[Robz888]

So, time to claim, PPS.

No more votes in the mean time. Thanks, everyone.

[Axxle]

I was not positive yesterday.  Still not positive.  Axxle, what's the reason?

On autopilot right now, I know I wanted to lynch him yesterday and that's good enough.

Been thinking about a massclaim but that probably won't work since there's still a roleblocker?

there's a roleblocker??

Vote: axxle

[pingpongsam]

Well, looks like it is up to shraye, really. If I am wrong about ADK I am the obvious lynch so I really do not understand why I should have to go first. Also, ADK is at L -1 but no one is demanding he claim. I am plain old VT and I am BMO as already said. So who does ADK claim to be and why is it necessary to kill me first when I am the obvious next lynch if ADK flips town? It's not like I have left myself an out, which scumpps absolutely would do as anyone who has played with me knows. That said the ones voting ADK are those people except Robz who has only seen me play scum as his partner.

[pingpongsam]

That ADK could not make any contributions other than a weak defense he has already made and to take the only vote viable to scum just confirms to me that he is scum. If I were scum I would be chasing a 3rd wagon here.

[mcmcsalot]

Okay, i looked over mcmc's case on me. It's piecemeal and disregards the additional context of my overall strategy which, btw, has been quite effective in exposing scum despite making me look insane. all it confirms is he has tunnel vision.

I think his hard press on me is a slight town tell. Scum knows I'm flipping town. I think both Robz and mcmc will be voting one another once I flip. Who is avoiding the spotlight in this fallout...

another reason he is scum for making no sense, tobz is pretty much ic btween the eevee thing and the wonderful job of lynching yuma. I have an extremely solid town read on him.

He may vote for me, and I guess I see why in the event pps is town. But I want to make sure I was not trying to distract from the yuma lynch I simply wanted pps/yuma(at the time I thought robz could be scum in the event yuma was town) and robz wanted yuma/pps so that was why I was questioning the yuma lynch. Yesterday I saw a possibility of a pps/robz team pushing town yuma. Now I am sure robz is town, and still think pps is.

[mcmcsalot]

also way to respond to my page long case with "meh its bad"

[mcmcsalot]

Final Day 1 Vote Count:

raerae (7): AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, scott_pilgrim, shraeye, robz888, Axxle
yuma (1): pingpongsam
scott_pilgrim (3): Eevee, A Drowned Kernel, Yuma
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae

Not Voting (0):

With 12 alive, it took 7 to lynch.

Day 2 Final Vote Count:

yuma (6): shraeye, mail-mi, Robz888, Eevee, Axxle, pingpongsam
PPS (2): mcmcsalot, yuma

Not Voting (2): scott_pilgrim, A Drowned Kernel

With 10 alive, it took 6 to lynch.

PPS only actual response to my case was how i neglected to point out how he has helped catch scum...how have you done that pps? you distracted from the raerae lynch and did nothing but bus the hammer on yuma

[pingpongsam]

Catching scum means getting scum to out themselves. I did this directly with yuma. While the rest of the game was convinced he was scum I wasn't positive until I baited him into full reaction mode. Staying off the raerae wagon was a twofold indirect method. First it encouraged scum to buy into direction from conftown thus preventing a far more confusing bus condition. Secondly I could see raerae was going to happen which told me two things she was likely town and I would be demonized for not helping the lynch happen and/or scum had to have some rocks to hide behind if she was a partner. I chose to be off wagon where the rest of scum was because I knew they would have to make me a target for being off wagon and thus I directly reduced the unknowns in the off wagon pool. I have played a solid game of isolating and discovering scum. Alive my play is not very beneficial to anyone but me and is thus hard to see. Dead my reads spell doom for scum. All I ask is we flip ADK before we flip me. My flip D4 will be far more informative than D3 because I have stood fast on ADK. If I am wrong me flipping town narrows the pool to still winnable proportions. Just lynch ADK first please. If he is town we do lose the flawless victory but we lose that lynching me for sure. Why not lynch ADK first? It is not like I am asking for infinite reprieve. Apologies for the wall of text phone post.

[pingpongsam]

also way to respond to my page long case with "meh its bad"

It's not that it is so bad as there simply isn't a narrative with the any continuity. ADK's games presents a continuous narrative of scum with nothing towny to it.

Describe to me how my antagonizing yuma yesterday makes any sense at all for me to have done as his partner. My biggest fear was he would flip town and second to that was the cop would get NK since he flipped Godfather. Eevee most certainly investigated me last night and had he lived we'd have 3ICs right now which was part of the crazy towny plan.

[Robz888]

I should note a couple things. I haven't been paying attention to the setup, but... keep in mind that there is a Universal Backup. My understanding is that this person inherits the PR of the first townie PR to die. Which means we have a townie who took over Eevee's Cop status.

Also, we know the mafia team has a Godfather (yuma) and a Strongman (raerae). This means that last scum is a Roleblocker. Possibly a 1-shot BP one. Ash: Can the mafia roleblocker shoot AND kill? No, right?

This means that we are dealing with the TT, T, or zero T setup. Which also means we should have a lot of town PRs. These are all good things, and point to us winning regardless of how we lynch at this point.

If we do have Town Vigilantes, I will recommend at this point that they start shooting. I would like Vigs to shoot mcmcsalot, and Cops to investigate ADK.

Other townies, please review to see if I have made any erroneous assumptions. After that, I am set to lynch PPS.

[shraeye]

Well, looks like it is up to shraye, really. If I am wrong about ADK I am the obvious lynch so I really do not understand why I should have to go first. Also, ADK is at L -1 but no one is demanding he claim. I am plain old VT and I am BMO as already said. So who does ADK claim to be and why is it necessary to kill me first when I am the obvious next lynch if ADK flips town? It's not like I have left myself an out, which scumpps absolutely would do as anyone who has played with me knows. That said the ones voting ADK are those people except Robz who has only seen me play scum as his partner.

I think it's really bad to make it PPS vs. ADK.  Very possible that scum is not in that pair at all.  I've had a thought about scum vis-a-vis wagons, but it's forming slow, and being in Cayman is holding me up. 

[Teproc]

Vote Count 3.3:

A Drowned Kernel (3): pingpongsam, scott_pilgrim, mail-mi
pingpongsam (3): Axxle, mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kernel
Axxle (1): shraeye

Not Voting (1): Robz888

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends at 5:20 p.m. on Wednesday, March 19.

[Robz888]

And Doctors should protect me, obvs.

[shraeye]

I should note a couple things. I haven't been paying attention to the setup, but... keep in mind that there is a Universal Backup. My understanding is that this person inherits the PR of the first townie PR to die. Which means we have a townie who took over Eevee's Cop status.

Also, we know the mafia team has a Godfather (yuma) and a Strongman (raerae). This means that last scum is a Roleblocker. Possibly a 1-shot BP one. Ash: Can the mafia roleblocker shoot AND kill? No, right?

This means that we are dealing with the TT, T, or zero T setup. Which also means we should have a lot of town PRs. These are all good things, and point to us winning regardless of how we lynch at this point.

If we do have Town Vigilantes, I will recommend at this point that they start shooting. I would like Vigs to shoot mcmcsalot, and Cops to investigate ADK.

Other townies, please review to see if I have made any erroneous assumptions. After that, I am set to lynch PPS.

I think not giving any attention to mail-mi or Axxle is a disastrous mistake.

[Robz888]

Ugh. Okay. Well I think Axxle is like absolutely town, and mail-mi very very townie. But even if you're right, what of it? We have so many free lynches at this point and a bunch of town PRs.

[shraeye]

Ugh. Okay. Well I think Axxle is like absolutely town, and mail-mi very very townie. But even if you're right, what of it? We have so many free lynches at this point and a bunch of town PRs.

But like, you're advocating using the "free lynches" and PRs on people like mcmcsalot, who I'm not worried at all about.  And I still don't like PPS lynch, he's another guy I'm confident in my townread on. 

Axxle, for example, was the raerae hammer in a super-formulaic way.  I feel like scum, much more often than town, does the "countdown hammer" and sticks to their promise.  Town hammerers are more spastic, "oh what the heck"-like.

Also, mail-mi/Axxle/Eevee were three people that looked the scummiest on the yuma lynch.  I pegged yuma hard on Day 2 for his interactions with raerae, and I feel like the 3rd partner would have been sure to be aboard that lynch.  I'm really not concerned about  people like mcmc/scott who were not on the yuma lynch.  If there are two back to back scum lynches, the final scum doesn't want to be caught defending his falling partners, you bet they'll be stepping right in line with the "town" way of thinking, and playing the leaf-in-the-wind game much harder than the direct-people-towards-the-wrong place game.

[shraeye]

Obviously Eevee is cop, so it's nice that mafia narrowed that choice down, but that's a big reason why I think mail-mi and Axxle need much more attention than they're getting.

[shraeye]

Also, my bad on the setup-based vote, I didn't see the full set of mafia options.  But now that my votes on Axxle, I actually feel good about that.

[Robz888]

Also, mail-mi/Axxle/Eevee were three people that looked the scummiest on the yuma lynch.  I pegged yuma hard on Day 2 for his interactions with raerae, and I feel like the 3rd partner would have been sure to be aboard that lynch.  I'm really not concerned about  people like mcmc/scott who were not on the yuma lynch.  If there are two back to back scum lynches, the final scum doesn't want to be caught defending his falling partners, you bet they'll be stepping right in line with the "town" way of thinking, and playing the leaf-in-the-wind game much harder than the direct-people-towards-the-wrong place game.

That's just a losing strategy though. If the final scum doesn't try to stop his other 2 partners from getting lynched, he's losing anyway.

[mail-mi]

Obviously Eevee is cop, so it's nice that mafia narrowed that choice down, but that's a big reason why I think mail-mi and Axxle need much more attention than they're getting.

Well, I'm not scum (duh) and Axxle is also very towny.

I don't think it's PPS. Why? Because, on D1, if he was raerae's partner, he does NOT redirect the scum lynch to another scum lynch. It's got to be ADK.

[pingpongsam]

I did not pick up on Eevee's soft-result on Robz until Axxle pointed it out.

Now, it is possible it was just a turn of phrase and not a soft-result at all. At any rate, the fact that Axxle pointed it out indicates Axxle is working for Town because scum would not try to IC anybody they didn't have to.

While I read Robz as Towny before and I agree it appears to be asoft-result a huge fear right now is that Robz is the final scum and he will coast to victory on a lucky turn of phrase, especially if a Doctor is protecting a scumRobz leaving all our own men defenseless at night.

Just a nagging thought that I have had. That Robz tunnels me so hard keeps fertilizing that thought.

[shraeye]

I think you should drop that line of thought on Robz; robz is town town.

I disagree that Axxle pointing it out makes him town.

[ashersky]

Ash: Can the mafia roleblocker shoot AND kill? No, right?

Shooting and killing are the same thing.

If you mean to ask if a mafia power role can opt to use its power and also perform the factional kill on the same night, the answer is yes.

[Robz888]

Ash: Can the mafia roleblocker shoot AND kill? No, right?

Shooting and killing are the same thing.

If you mean to ask if a mafia power role can opt to use its power and also perform the factional kill on the same night, the answer is yes.

That IS what I meant to ask. Booooooo.

[pingpongsam]

I think you should drop that line of thought on Robz; robz is town town.

I disagree that Axxle pointing it out makes him town.

Yeah, when I reread that bit I agree. Robz is town, if not he deserves the win. done with that.

I didn't say it made Axxle town just that it was an indicator.

In the discussions surrounding who to lynch today that indicator tends to remove him from my would lynch list for the day. I agree more attention needs to be going around so I'm not trying to quell any debate but actually to start it. Generically stating the obvious that it doesn't make him town seems antithetical to spreading the attention out.

[Robz888]

PPS is flailing, but it almost strikes me as townie flailing, kind of. I have to re-read him, and ADK, and mcmc. Then I will let everyone know who which person I want us to lynch. Do not lynch before that.

[Robz888]

All things being equal, though, PPS's VT claim makes him a better lynch.

[Axxle]

Unvote

I should reread, there might be a better lynch for today.

[pingpongsam]

All things being equal, though, PPS's VT claim makes him a better lynch.

Right, because ADK never claimed, nobody demanded he claim and now he can claim PR to make sure we mislynch. Pure genius.

[A Drowned Kernel]

PPS, at no point was I ever at L-1.

[Robz888]

I don't have any intention of asking ADK to claim at this point, so that's fine.

[pingpongsam]

PPS, at no point was I ever at L-1.

Point taken, for some reason I thought we needed 4 to lynch and we were both L-1 at the same time.

[shraeye]

All things being equal, though, PPS's VT claim makes him a better lynch.

Right, because ADK never claimed, nobody demanded he claim and now he can claim PR to make sure we mislynch. Pure genius.

I don't think we're in a "lynch PPS cuz he's VT" situation; so let's focus on making the right lynch.  I'm not voting for you today.

[mcmcsalot]

Ugh why are we not lunging pps, he's so scummy. But whatever Adk is kinda scummy too? Actually I have no clue. Lynch me right? We can afford like a billion mislynches oh wait isn't that what pps said yesterday right he stuck to that.

[shraeye]

what?

[pingpongsam]

I find mcmc scummy but I see straight up Mafia in ADK.

I have reason to believe Axxle is town and I've not seen any convincing cases that he isn't.

I have good reasons to believe shraeye is town and I am beyond debating Robz' alignment.

scott and mail-mi haven't raised any suspicions but I've not seen them garner too much attention at all. I get confirmation bias from both of them. I'll reread both of them but IIRC scotty has come off towny while mail-mi has been null all around.

So, prior to a reread on scott and mail-mi my list is as follows:

Lynch ASAP FTW: ADK
Runner-up for scummiest of the scummies: mcmcsalot
/dev/null: scott-pilgrim, mail-mi
Ordered from Lukewarm Townishnish to Rainbows of Towny spewing from every orifice: Axxle, shraeye, Robz, PPS (ok, not so towny to anybody but himself)

[pingpongsam]

Re-read scott_pilgrim and see no scum there. L-3'd raerae and stayed there. While I definitely get confirmation bias from having him echo where I am I think it is a solid position that scum would be waffling on already to make the mislynch happen. I know my alignment to be Town so when he indicates that my play is easy to misconstrue but that he is not going to misconstrue it I feel a Towny kinshep feeling in my belly. Most of his play has been theory talk. This is scott's 3rd game and the meta I got from DoP is that he is fairly lurky and more of an observer with fairly committed reads. I don't know what other game he was in nor his alignment but from my little exposure this looks like town!scott.

The only detraction I see is that he was off-wagon and not voting alongside ADK for the yuma lynch. I am currently reading this as both his normal slow play style (aka lurkish) and possibly an abstention to such a fast lynch.

Modified Reads:

Lynch ASAP FTW: ADK
Runner-up for scummiest of the scummies: mcmcsalot
/dev/null: mail-mi
Ordered from Lukewarm Townishnish to Rainbows of Towny spewing from every orifice: Axxle, shraeye/scott-pilgrim, Robz, PPS (ok, not so towny to anybody but himself)

off to re-read mail-mi, now.

[Teproc]

Vote Count 3.4:

A Drowned Kernel (3): pingpongsam, scott_pilgrim, mail-mi
pingpongsam (2): mcmcsalot, A Drowned Kernel
Axxle (1): shraeye

Not Voting (2): Robz888, Axxle

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends at 5:20 p.m. on Wednesday, March 19.

[pingpongsam]

Re-read of mail-mi indicates he was early onto raerae and called it spot on as a semi-early bus that got away from scum's ability to leverage for cred later. He aslo felt a scum vibe on ADK early on and, like me, suspected Eevee early on as well. He also disliked the wagon speed on raerae just as I did. Reads scotty as town as well, also avoided the D1 yuma lynch because raerae he perceived as better and yuma was quite helpful then. As an aside, my display yesterday was to show that once cornered helpful yuma completely evaporated and that was the tell the confirmed him scum to me. Early voted on the yuma wagon, no way he was yuma's partner and this play just about wraps up a now strong town read on mail-mi. From that point on it's pretty much the same confirmation bias I get from scotty.

So final reads list:

Lynch ASAP FTW: ADK
Runner-up for scummiest of the scummies: mcmcsalot
Ordered from Lukewarm Townishnish to Rainbows of Towny spewing from every orifice: Axxle, shraeye/scott-pilgrim, mail-mi Robz, PPS (ok, not so towny to anybody but himself)

As far as I am concerned the lynch pool is narrowed to only 2 contenders. All I ask is we lynch ADK first because I think it guarantees us the win. If I am wrong I gladly go to the gallows knowing mcmc will die shortly thereafter and we win anyway.

[pingpongsam]

I'm in the mood to actually post a play by play narrative of ADK's scumminess:

RVS'd Eevee, now RVS is RVS but I do note he did not RVS scum here.

Shortly afterwards he states his RVS isn't so RVS anymore, bear in mind this is our Cop. Decides to unvote when really pressed on this.

Plays the joke reaction angle to cast suspicion on FTTW who is now conftown. Sets up the WIFOM that the new scum guy would likely not cast suspicion on himself.

Here comes the fun: Says there appears to be good momentum on shraeye so we should consider an alternative wagon and votes raerae, remember guys we all agreed the raerae wagon was a scum plan that got out of their hands. this vote garners an immediate interaction from yuma, known scum partner to raerae. this is classic scum preplanning in action. He even calls the spade a spade here. AFAICT the whole scum team starts bantering over the new raerae vote right here. ADK solidifies his position that the raerae vote is just to deflect from the too quickly moving shraeye vote.

Axxle comes in about this point and says he is taking a long hard look at ADK if shraeye flips scum because he doesn't think L-3 is very close to lynch on D1 to which I agree, scum would have done well to allow more momentum on shraeye's wagon before going for the early suspicion cred bus. why is Axxle unwilling to take that long hard look now?

Well, raerae goes to L-1 relatively quickly and guess who unvotes? ADK. Axxle resets it right back which speaks volumes to Axxle's alignment.

Known scum yuma steps in and says we are getting some good old fashioned material to work with, obviously trying to identify an alterntive angle to get off the spiraling raerae wagon. ADK uses this lull to reiterate there used to be a wagon shraeye (hint hint guise!) but we know the damage is already done. mial-mi gains town cred here for relighting the fire on the raerae wagon, he wasn't fooled. Robz sees the bullshit going and votes ADK, why is this not worthy of a vote today?

yuma and raerae are desperately backpedaling. ADK does what he has been trying to do, place a vote that will deflect from raerae and he votes mail-mi, another strong Town read. Unfortunately the tide shifts onto yuma with shraeye and then me placing votes.

ADK chimes in to say there are no goods reads and echoes my scum-baited sentiment that the raerae wagon is just too confusing. Robz makes the comment yuma is worht keeping and I agree not only because yuma is good Town when he's town but he's easy scum to out which I do the next day. I go back to what looks like an ADK driven agenda, Eevee. yuma is still, inexplicably, tied to the raerae wagon which I think was a fatal mistake as we soon see.

ADK tries again to dissuade people from believing he unvoted raerae to protect a partner but instead to prevent a mislynch which we know now was not a mislynch at all. this prompts another scumteam banter where they all 3 try to neogotaite how we must all be misinterpreting what they are trying to do here (save raerae's neck).

robz derails the whole thing with his random lynch thing, which btw, I think was a super town or scum play either way. The rareare wagon dies to only 3 votes with yuma obviously hanging in there for what they mist now perceive to be the successfully implemented pkan for the early suspicion cred bus meme. ADK uses this opportunity to get FTTW to question his vote on raerae. mcmc does the towniest thing he does the whole game and reignites the wagon with a raerae vote, not he also reserved an out to vote Eevee so I find it fascinating he wants to paint me scum today for having similar suspicions about Eevee then too.

yuma jumps finally, voting shraeye because he is the only hope D1 for a mislynch wagon at this point to which Robz agrees with a followup vote. Me and Axxle both see what yuma just did and vote him in quick sucession. raerae goes to deflect onto the never gonna happen eevee vote. yuma, raerae and FTTW alljockey around the maypole a bit about what these shifts actually represent. ADK and others notably absent, when prodded ADK promises a reads list.

The ADK reads list is some fun stuff, here it is:

All right, this is what I got from a reread:

eevee- Town? Ish? Wouldn't vote for him right now. I don't see scum in the vote-forgetting, I think scum is more careful than that.
scott- Scummy. I don't like how he jumped on raerae wagon and I'm seeing his reaction to the randomlynch as scummy, town would be more likely to just shrug it off as joke I think.
robz- Random lynch thing seems scummy but also believable from what I know of Robz. Null.
mail-mi- VLA means he hasn't posted much. He did kind of jump of the shraeye wagon though. Don't have a good guess on him.
yuma- Town-ish. Makes a lot of good analysis but he could be active scum trying to control the flow of the game. Wait and see I guess.
mc- Generally scummy as well as lurky. He votes for raerae, unvotes, then criticizes/calls other people scummy for unvoting. There's this whole "trying to push a mislynch without actually voting on it" thing that I'm reading. I know I'm new at this but is that a thing scum does?
pps- Buddying with shraeye? Maybe they're masons. Null I guess.
raerae- Her interaction with FTTW still looks like scumhunting town to me, as well as her response.
fttw- Mostly just a newbie townie vibe, trying to figure out what's going on.
shraeye- Buddying with pps, again not too sure on alignment. Tunneling on yuma a little.
axxle- Switches votes a lot early on but seems like he's scumhunting. Slight town I guess.

At this point I guess I'd vote for mc or scott. I dislike the idea of jumping on a wagon that started with Robz saying "let's vote someone random" but I do feel he's scummy, and I suppose I should resign myself to not perfectly agreeing with everyone's vote.

Vote: Scott

raerae and yuma are his top Town reads, impressive that. and guess who sheeps the scott vote? yuma.

oh oh, the raerae wagon heats up since the clock is ticking and yuma supposes he's gotta get back in there where he was gonna get that cred he committed to realizing, wait, no bad idea, maybe the scott thing can happen or they can stave off the raerae lynch. huge gaff, here. ADK and yuma bow out for the final countdown.




D@, admits he and yuma look scummy. when the inevitable happens to yuma which he couldn't defend and couldn't start because it was his partner and because he can hope someone else does something scummy enough to get the heat he realizes the only cred salvaging opportunity he has is to intent to hammer. We all know what happened and we all agree ADK's reluctance here looks scummy.

D3 it's him or me because Eevee got offed and I know fluffy investigated me. Almost makes me think the Mafia PR is Rolecop.

So, I see a consistent scum narrative throughout. Last time I say this, can we please lynch ADK first if it has to be between me and him?

[Robz888]

D3 it's him or me because Eevee got offed and I know fluffy investigated me. Almost makes me think the Mafia PR is Rolecop.

False, we know for a certainty the last PR is Roleblocker. Check the setup.

[Robz888]

That said, you're kind of convincing me.

[mcmcsalot]

Is t talking about how muh you want to be copped or that a cop result will clear you almos always a scum trait?

[Robz888]

Is t talking about how muh you want to be copped or that a cop result will clear you almos always a scum trait?

Well, yes. That part is scummy. But in every other way, he has not reacted like I would expect him to as scum. Remember, I just played alongside him as scum in Diffusion of Power.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'll admit that I haven't been very active game, and that's on me. What's also on me is my terrible reads on day one. Was the scum teams reactions that PPS is talking about deliberately set up to give town a mislynch later, or is it just incidental stuff that's screwing me over now? I don't know. I truly did have a scum read on Yuma yesterday, my reluctance to vote was based on the two thoughts of, "lynching two scum in a row sounds too good to be true", and "on the off chance yuma is town then i'm set up for a mislynch tomorrow". It's what I get for being slightly sheepy, but there you go.

PPS omits the fact on D-2, I admit that I, yuma, Eevee and him are the ones who look scummy. Here's my post:

So there's a lot of suspicion on me right now, which is pretty understandable. I guess you either believe me when you say I was just trying to avoid a mislynch, or you don't.

Scum read on Scott pretty much revoked, I think he was on the wagon too early and too consistently to be bussing scum. The only voters I would believe as bussing scum right now are Robz or Shraeye, and those are very tentative. I'd rather vote off-wagon.

Between PPS, Eevee, and Yuma... Yuma obviously seems scummier now, but I think he'd have to be fairly incompetent scum to do what he did, and I guess that isn't likely. But maybe that's whole point of what he did? WIFOM etc. Eevee's hardline stance against the raerae wagon seems a little townier. PPS, hmm.

Caught up early yesterday and again today. Will likely be gone all day but so far still standing firm on my vote. Not seeing anything new to convince me otherwise. Quite surprised there hasn't been a push for a wagon on me to date. I was kind of provoking one to see who would join it. While I have some suspicions about who may be scum I am largely null on everyone. Probably the only actual townish read I have is Axxle and I tend to doubly suspect my D1 Town reads.

(bold added)

Found this while I was rereading his posts, the unprovoked questioning of why no one is suspicious of him strikes me as someone who knows that people should have reason to be suspicious of them. Kind of like what I was reading from Eevee at the very beginning of the game, I thought I was misreading that but maybe I wasn't.

No vote yet, still have to wait and see I think.

PPS is still my strongest scum read. He's been bouncing around a lot, and the whole "putting on an act to draw out scum" thing doesn't sit well with me. If you've told us once that you've been lying, then why should we believe the new version? His behavior today looks likes he's tunneling on the only person he thinks he can get lynched over him, and that's me.

That said, I am open to hear who else people think could be lynched today. People I wouldn't lynch, though: Robz, Scott, mail-mi, probably not shraeye.

[shraeye]

i think you both are focusing too much on eachother, which takes things dangerously close to a "me or him" situation.  And I don't have a scum read on either of you.

[pingpongsam]

PPS omits the fact on D-2, I admit that I, yuma, Eevee and him are the ones who look scummy.

No, I did not omit that part at all.

If you've told us once that you've been lying, then why should we believe the new version?

At no point have I lied nor told you that I lied. Where did this even come from? I did say I have intentionally flip-flopped I have intentionally posted with scum-baited posts that have worked extremely well for their purposes.

[mail-mi]

Again, I will say: Scum!PPS does not redirect a D1 scum partner lynch to another partner lynch.

His narrative of ADK makes a whole lot of sense. Let's do this and lynch ADK

[Robz888]

Yeah, I'm coming around.

Okay, ADK. We want your claim, now.

Tonight, I want Vigs to shoot mcmcsalot and Cops to investigate PPS. Doctors, protect me.

[mcmcsalot]

Yeah, I'm coming around.

Okay, ADK. We want your claim, now.

Tonight, I want Vigs to shoot mcmcsalot and Cops to investigate PPS. Doctors, protect me.

fine vote: adk

also i'm a vt vigs can go ahead and shoot me, I do not feel like defending myself if i'm alive tomorrow. I still think pps is scum.

[mcmcsalot]

also before anyone freaks out, scum would never have shot me in a million years(im scummy, easy to mislynch me and the ic told vigs to shoot me) so I am not taking a possible pr off the table. Also It's better I die and save all your time than get mislynched and waste a day, also if there are vigs, I wouldn't want them shooting a possible pr.

[Robz888]

Mcmc is absolutely correct.

But vigs, don't think "oh that makes him town." Shoot him anyway, please.

[mcmcsalot]

Mcmc is absolutely correct.

But vigs, don't think "oh that makes him town." Shoot him anyway, please.

I mean it does, but yea it's still for the best.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Claim: Universal Backup/Cop

[Robz888]

Everyone unvote ADK immediately, please. This is not a claim he can fake. He is an IC now.

[mcmcsalot]

unvote

[mcmcsalot]

Sooo lynch pps, docs protect Adk, Adk investigate someone non me/robz, vigs target me?

[pingpongsam]

So where does this go when I flip town because I am sure as hell flipping town.

Also, how is it he can't fake that? I'm not arguing, I'm genuinely confused.

[Robz888]

If I am reading the setup correctly, the Universal Backup turns into a Mason if a single M is rolled, and the UB is not told he was originally a UB, is that correct ash?

So under that edge case, ADK coukld be faking (of course, he wouldn't know that was the case--so it would be a huge huge gamble, although possibly one he has no choice but to make.)

[mcmcsalot]

So where does this go when I flip town because I am sure as hell flipping town.

Also, how is it he can't fake that? I'm not arguing, I'm genuinely confused.

The actual universal backup/cop would counter.

[Robz888]

So where does this go when I flip town because I am sure as hell flipping town.

Also, how is it he can't fake that? I'm not arguing, I'm genuinely confused.

Read the setup. There is guaranteed to be a Universal Backup. I mean, if someone else is the UB, please counterclaim, but I'm assuming that's not the case because claiming something that will be countered generates an automatic loss for scum at this point.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I didn't want to have to claim, it's frustrating that my poor play led to this, but I think that we're doing very well regardless.

PPE: Robz, should we ask for a mason claim at this point? Scum would have no one to back them up so it would give them more IC's.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Us, not them.

[Robz888]

I didn't want to have to claim, it's frustrating that my poor play led to this, but I think that we're doing very well regardless.

PPE: Robz, should we ask for a mason claim at this point? Scum would have no one to back them up so it would give them more IC's.

It's fine, this might actually be better, having your claim out in the open. It's really good that you are the UB... it ICizes a top suspect. Probably means this is my last day alive though.

[Robz888]

Ash: Does someone get a role PM that says "You are/were the UB" 100% of the time in this game? Or am I reading the setup correctly, that if just one "M" is rolled, the UB becomes the second Mason before even receiving role PM?

I'm trying to understand if it's possible your claim is fake, if there was never a UB.

[shraeye]

Yeah, I'm coming around.

Okay, ADK. We want your claim, now.

Tonight, I want Vigs to shoot mcmcsalot and Cops to investigate PPS. Doctors, protect me.

No, vigs please shoot somebody who was on the yuma lynch, and I think that mail-mi/Axxle are much better targets.

[shraeye]

Ah, ADK claims.  I believe him.

also,

So where does this go when I flip town because I am sure as hell flipping town.

Also, how is it he can't fake that? I'm not arguing, I'm genuinely confused.

Also, this from PPS is genuinely town.  I'm not going to lynch either of them today.

[Robz888]

I need to hear from ash before I can set a definite plan.

I think I want to lynch mcmc, now.

[pingpongsam]

Just so we are clear on what we are going into this night:

PPS - VT
mcmc - VT
ADK - UB/Cop
Robz - ?
shraeye - ?
mail-mi - ?
Axxle - ?
scott - ?

One of the ?'s is definitely a scum roleblocker ( so you all say). I keep looking at the setup rules and it makes my head hurt. I'm not even able to deduce that there must be a scum roleblocker because it looks to me like the remaining scum could be a Goon.

I'm just wanting us to not create a situation where scum can prevent us from using the mislynch/NK information to locate him tomorrow.

[mail-mi]

Well okay then.

we already have half of the claims out in the open--should we just mass claim?

and unvote

[mail-mi]

Well okay then.

we already have half of the claims out in the open--should we just mass claim?

and unvote

well, not half, but half minus 1

[Robz888]

One of the ?'s is definitely a scum roleblocker ( so you all say). I keep looking at the setup rules and it makes my head hurt. I'm not even able to deduce that there must be a scum roleblocker because it looks to me like the remaining scum could be a Goon.

Because in all scenarios where there is a Godfather and a Strongman, there is a Roleblocker. The 0T, T, and TT scenarios.

[scott_pilgrim]

unvote

PPS the scum roleblocker must exist because we already saw a strongman, and there's no option which has strongman but not roleblocker.

[shraeye]

actually, why not start a full-claim?  Robz, wanna do that?

[shraeye]

ah, i see that mail-mi already reached the same conclusion.  And that Robz is possibly cooking something similar.

[Robz888]

I need to hear from ash whether ADK is a total IC, or an almost but quite IC. If he is a total IC, we should proceed in lynching mcmcsalot. I believe ADK should investigate PPS, but I guess it's up to him. Doctors should protect ADK. Vigs should... I don't know. Probably just not shoot.

If ADK is an almost but not quite IC, then we will probably ask for a Mason claim. If there are no Masons, he is an IC.

If there are Masons, then maybe we'll just finish off the massclaim and go from there.

[pingpongsam]

In light of the fact I have tunneled myself to blindness I will most likely just sheep Robz, especially so if shraeye agrees with Robz.

[pingpongsam]

and Unvote

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm not sure that the doctor shouldn't still protect Robz (if we don't massclaim), I'm not likely to get any useful results considering the last scum is the roleblocker.

[mail-mi]

Vigs should... I don't know. Probably just not shoot.

Vigs should use their own judgement in whether to shoot or not, and then who to shoot. We've got to trust them, and we have nearly unlimited mislynches, so it really doesn't hurt all that much if they hit a townie.

[Axxle]

I'm not sure that the doctor shouldn't still protect Robz (if we don't massclaim), I'm not likely to get any useful results considering the last scum is the roleblocker.

The doc should protect randomly.

I'm glad I delayed a reread...

[Robz888]

I'm not sure that the doctor shouldn't still protect Robz (if we don't massclaim), I'm not likely to get any useful results considering the last scum is the roleblocker.

Oh, good point. Doctor should probably role a dice and protect me 65% of the time and ADK 35% of the time, to maximize our survival chances.

[Robz888]

Vigs should... I don't know. Probably just not shoot.

Vigs should use their own judgement in whether to shoot or not, and then who to shoot. We've got to trust them, and we have nearly unlimited mislynches, so it really doesn't hurt all that much if they hit a townie.

Sort of, but we might have Masons, so I would rather not have the Vigs shooting among like you, Axxle and shraeye, unless we do end up massclaiming. But let's see what ash says.

[Axxle]

I'm not sure that the doctor shouldn't still protect Robz (if we don't massclaim), I'm not likely to get any useful results considering the last scum is the roleblocker.

Oh, good point. Doctor should probably role a dice and protect me 65% of the time and ADK 35% of the time, to maximize our survival chances.

d20 then?

[Axxle]

Why is there a question about ADK's claim? It's obviously true.

[ashersky]

In asher9++, all set ups include a Town Universal Backup and Mafia Godfather before random rolls are used to determine power role distribution.

If a single M is rolled, the UB becomes a Mason.  That player is not told of this conversion.

After the setup is determined, if the single M was not rolled, the Universal Backup is informed of their role pre-game, just like any other role.

[Axxle]

We either have a Universal Backup or a single Mason. A single Mason obviously know if he's the only Mason so knows ADK's claim is false if he exists.

[Robz888]

Basically, if a single M was rolled, the UB became a Mason without ever knowing he was the UB.

In this situation, ADK could claim UB, and would not be counterclaimed, because the real UB doesn't know he was actually a UB.

This is an unlikely situation, because scum!ADK wouldn't know that the real UB never learned he was the real UB. SO it was like a ridiculously risky move. Although scum are in such terrible shape it may have been necessary. Make sense?

[Robz888]

We either have a Universal Backup or a single Mason. A single Mason obviously know if he's the only Mason so knows ADK's claim is false if he exists.

You are reading this wrong. If the setup generated a single Mason, the UB is turned into a Mason to go along with the other guy, and is not told he was first a UB.

[Axxle]

Basically, if a single M was rolled, the UB became a Mason without ever knowing he was the UB.

In this situation, ADK could claim UB, and would not be counterclaimed, because the real UB doesn't know he was actually a UB.

This is an unlikely situation, because scum!ADK wouldn't know that the real UB never learned he was the real UB. SO it was like a ridiculously risky move. Although scum are in such terrible shape it may have been necessary. Make sense?

A SINGLE MASON OBVIOUSLY KNOWS HE IS A SINGLE MASON. HE IS A MASON WITHOUT BUDDIES!

[Axxle]

@mod: The Universal Roleblocker could be a Mason and not know it. Accurate?

[Robz888]

Basically, if a single M was rolled, the UB became a Mason without ever knowing he was the UB.

In this situation, ADK could claim UB, and would not be counterclaimed, because the real UB doesn't know he was actually a UB.

This is an unlikely situation, because scum!ADK wouldn't know that the real UB never learned he was the real UB. SO it was like a ridiculously risky move. Although scum are in such terrible shape it may have been necessary. Make sense?

A SINGLE MASON OBVIOUSLY KNOWS HE IS A SINGLE MASON. HE IS A MASON WITHOUT BUDDIES!

A SINGLE MASON GETS THE UB AS HIS BUDDY WIHTOUT EITHER EVER KNOWING HE STARTED LIFE AS A UB.

[Axxle]

I'm an idiot. carry on.

[Robz888]

So, we need to know if there are Masons. If there are no Masons, ADK is an IC, because his UB claim is true--no UB was converted to a Mason if there are no Masons.

Everyone who hasn't claimed must claim Mason/Not Mason.

I am not a Mason.

We need shraeye, Axxle, and mail-mi to claim Mason/Not Mason as well.

[Axxle]

I am not a Mason.

[mail-mi]

i am not a mason.

[Robz888]

Okay, well shraeye can't even be a Mason then, there's noone for him to be Masons with. ADK is an IC.

I really think it's either PPS or mcmc, and more likely mcmc.

We should lynch mcmcsalot. ADK probably won't actually get off a successful investigation, but oh well. Vigs, shoot PPS, or no one.

[Robz888]

WAIT I forgot Scotty. They could be Masons, let's hold on.

[pingpongsam]

Could not the mason already be dead?

Also would not the UB inherit prior results?

[mail-mi]

Could not the mason already be dead?

No, otherwise we would have had a flip that said someone was a mason.

Also would not the UB inherit prior results?

Probably not.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I didn't get any message saying so and I assume that I wasn't supposed to.

[shraeye]

not a mason.  Also, with 8 players, we can only afford 2 mislynches barring night actions.  So let's not get really cavalier/risky with our lynches while saying "we've got millions of mislynches!!!"

I'm not sold on the mcmcs lynch, but not staunchly against.  I'll have to do some reading on him.

[pingpongsam]

Scott voted ADK so likely not his mason.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I'm not a mason, and there apparently aren't any. I'm the universal backup, which means I convert to whichever town PR dies first. There's a chance that this conversion happens before the game, in which case I would have become a mason, but it didn't, so now I'm a cop because I inherited Eevee's role.

[Robz888]

I'm not a mason, and there apparently aren't any. I'm the universal backup, which means I convert to whichever town PR dies first. There's a chance that this conversion happens before the game, in which case I would have become a mason, but it didn't, so now I'm a cop because I inherited Eevee's role.

I got that, but there's a chance you were lying if there is a pair of Masons among the town. But there isn't, so you're not.

[Robz888]

Scott voted ADK so likely not his mason.

That wouldn't have mattered, ADK is not a Mason because, he claimed UB. If he's lying, he's scum.

[Robz888]

Everyone seems very confused about stuff, but I'm not, so I guess that's fine... I just don't want to wake up dead and read about you guys getting it wrong. Is everyone on the same page now?

[scott_pilgrim]

I don't understand what's going on, but I'm not a mason.  Does that make ADK and IC?

[scott_pilgrim]

I don't understand what's going on, but I'm not a mason.  Does that make ADK and IC?

*an

[Robz888]

I don't understand what's going on, but I'm not a mason.  Does that make ADK and IC?

Yes.

[Robz888]

I have to leave for a couple hours. When I come back, we'll all lynch mcmcsalot.

[A Drowned Kernel]

@ Robz I was replying to PPS, who seems very confused about how the setup works. Does that give him towncred? I don't know.

[mcmcsalot]

cool...whatever

[pingpongsam]

I have a birthing class to drive to and attend; I will check once more when I get there but as it is,

Vote: mcmcsalot

[mail-mi]

scott is on but not posting.

vote: scott

[Teproc]

Vote Count 3.5:

pingpongsam (1): A Drowned Kernel
Axxle (1): shraeye
mcmcsalot (1): pingpongsam
scott_pilgrim (1): mail-mi

Not Voting (4): Robz888, Axxle, mcmcsalot, scott_pilgrim

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends at 5:20 p.m. on Wednesday, March 19.

[Axxle]

vote: scott

I still feel he's pretty scum with his interactions with raerae, and the last scum has a good chance of being a lurker since the other two were loud.

[mcmcsalot]

vote: scott its not me

[scott_pilgrim]

I agree that I've been pretty lurky this game.  I'm not sure what you mean by my interactions with raerae being scummy?  Can you give examples?  Also, why does having two loud scum mean the last one is more likely lurky?  I don't see why that would be the case, unless you're committing the fallacy of "flipping two heads makes the next more likely tails" but I assume you know better than that.

[Axxle]

I agree that I've been pretty lurky this game.  I'm not sure what you mean by my interactions with raerae being scummy?  Can you give examples?  Also, why does having two loud scum mean the last one is more likely lurky?  I don't see why that would be the case, unless you're committing the fallacy of "flipping two heads makes the next more likely tails" but I assume you know better than that.

The biggest thing about you and raerae is that she decided to selfdestruct instead of trying to help lynch you.

The 2 loud and 1 quiet is something that the mafia does pretty often.  There's a few different reasons for it: 'don't put all our eggs in one basket', 'try different strategies and we all won't get caught', 'X died doing Y so I should be doing Z instead'.

[scott_pilgrim]

Oh right, you mentioned that before.  Yeah, I can't explain why raerae didn't vote for me, other than that she apparently likes to stick to her vote and doesn't move it under pressure.  I mean I guess it could also be WIFOM, she thinks if she doesn't vote me people will think I'm scum and they get a mislynch that way after she dies, but that's a stretch; the payoff isn't worth what she loses from it.  I know I'm town, I agree it is odd that she didn't vote for me, I would have voted for me in her position even if she was town, lynching someone whose alignment you don't know is almost always better than getting lynched.

[A Drowned Kernel]

unvote PPS seems a little too genuinely confused to be scum.

Who does that leave us with? Scott and mc? Someone said something about axxle. I'll have to do a reread I guess.

[shraeye]

I have to leave for a couple hours. When I come back, we'll all lynch mcmcsalot.

Give me a chance to read things.  We have a whole week, and I'm on vacation now.

[shraeye]

unvote PPS seems a little too genuinely confused to be scum.

Who does that leave us with? Scott and mc? Someone said something about axxle. I'll have to do a reread I guess.

I keep saying look at Axxle or mail-mi.  I will do this when more time presents itself.

[Axxle]

Eh no need to look, see:

I have a cop innocent on Axxle

That's a totally, completely, 100% spurious quote from this game.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Oh we have a week, not until tomorrow, I thought that was a short deadline. Okay I'm going to put off my reread a little bit, activity's going to be low for me today and tomorrow.

I did get far enough in my reread to be reminded of Axxle's fakehammer on raerae, that's a point in his favor I think.

[mail-mi]

To me, the candidates are mcmc, shraeye, and scott.

Not Robz or Axxle because they're super duper townie.

Not ADK because cop claim

Not PPS because reasons stated before

Not mail-mi because that's me.

[pingpongsam]

Teproc missed my Unvote and my mcmc vote. Really glad there is at least consideration being given to other possibilities.

Unvote

[Axxle]

Teproc missed my Unvote and my mcmc vote. Really glad there is at least consideration being given to other possibilities.

Unvote

mcmcsalot (1): pingpongsam

[Teproc]

Vote Count 3.6:

scott_pilgrim (3): mail-mi, Axxle, mcmcsalot
Axxle (1): shraeye

Not Voting (4): Robz888, scott_pilgrim, A Drowned Kernel, pingpongsam

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends at 5:20 p.m. on Wednesday, March 19.

[pingpongsam]

I think I got some phone weirdness, there because I double checked before I posted, apologies.

[Robz888]

Okay, I just re-read Day 1. Good news, friends. The last scum is mcmcsalot. It's much, much clearer on re-read. Like overwhelmingly clear. He's scummy in his own right, and by process of elimination.

The gist is this: He consistently votes for raerae at times when she is not in danger, and then is not voting for her--but saying she's scummy and that he will vote for her--at times when she is in more danger. Comapared side-by-side with Scotty, mcmcsalot's behavior toward raerae is strictly scummier than Scotty's.

Here's him, when the raerae wagon is building:

vote: raerae

What answer could he have given that you would not have replied the same way?
From my perspective you asked him a question and afterwards voted him for a reason unrelated to his answer.

Then I think he realizes this vote is more dangerous than he realized, and unvotes:

vote: raerae

What answer could he have given that you would not have replied the same way?
From my perspective you asked him a question and afterwards voted him for a reason unrelated to his answer.

Exactly how I feel about it. It can't be a serious vote. I dont get why someone would post out of spite in this game as it really doesn't help anything.

I want to add raerae is a doesn't one, I can see town raerae thinking Andrew is scum and doing this exact same thing. Remember pirates where she swapped in and went at it with another townie(I was scum and loved being able to pick either side) soo with that unvote off to reread Yuma and see of I get that sense from him

Justification:

More remembrance, Yuma and me have discussed the idea of townie "pushing" lynches similarly to the way scum does and Yuma was of the opinion that town shouldn't and would rarely use tactics to make the person they think is scum look scummy so that is consistent with his thoughts in town!raerae not having a reason to do what she did.(correct me if I am misremembering)

Followed by the giveaway:

He also mentions the poor town play possibility definitely no scum read there. This makes me want to go back to outing raerae though I think she is not the best day 1 lynch based on contributions.

"This makes me want to go back to [lynching] raerae."  But he doesn't. Not then, at least. Not until the wagon builds up to L-2, Axxle does that fake out thing, and then it goes back down.

Then mcmc votes for raerae. Historically speaking, this is a safe time to vote for your scum partner; they just survived an early Day 1 wagon, and will likely not actually be revisited.

But then... we stall out, votes fly everywhere, and we actually come back to raerae. Note who casts the next vote for her, after mcmc:

Vote Count 1.18:

raerae (4): AndrewisFTTW, mail-mi, mcmcsalot, scott_pilgrim
yuma (2): shraeye, pingpongsam
shraeye (2): yuma, Robz888
scott_pilgrim (2): Eevee, A Drowned Kernel
AndrewisFTTW (1): raerae

Not Voting (1): Axxle

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 4:30 p.m. on March 3, 2014.

That is in less than 24 hours.

Scotty's vote is more likely to get raerae killed than mcmc's, herego, mcmc is more likely scum.

Interesting things--things I forgot about--happen after that. I start a mini wagon on Scotty. I do think Scotty reacted pretty scummy to it, but... Yuma clearly preferred it as the alternative to raerae. His best last effort to achieve a lynch on a non-mafia was to pivot toward Scotty. Note that this wasn't an entirely desperate thing. He had a good shot at achieving it. It was my idea, I trusted yuma, Scotty was kind of scummy, we had Eevee on board for it.

Scotty is very, very unlikely to be scum, based on Day 1. Whereas mcmc did exactly what scum would have done, especially in comparison to Scotty.

[Robz888]

If not mcmc, I honestly think shraeye, Axxle, and mail-mi are all more likely than Scotty, based solely on Day 1.

I mean, mail-mi is also pretty unlikely. He was doggedly committed to the raerae lynch at all times--that was just so self-destructive, if he was scum.

My town!read on Axxle is pure gut.

I don't really have a town read on shraeye anymore, after reading Day 1. I think his yuma feuding could have been scripted, although it's not the MOST likely thing.

People voting for Scott, stop that. That's stupid.

[Robz888]

Vote: Mcmcsalot You should all join me.

[Axxle]

Interesting things--things I forgot about--happen after that. I start a mini wagon on Scotty. I do think Scotty reacted pretty scummy to it, but... Yuma clearly preferred it as the alternative to raerae. His best last effort to achieve a lynch on a non-mafia was to pivot toward Scotty. Note that this wasn't an entirely desperate thing. He had a good shot at achieving it. It was my idea, I trusted yuma, Scotty was kind of scummy, we had Eevee on board for it.

Scotty is very, very unlikely to be scum, based on Day 1. Whereas mcmc did exactly what scum would have done, especially in comparison to Scotty.

And if it had gone through, how good he and raerae would have looked. It also explains why yuma was so frustrated Day 2. I'm liking scott more and more.

[Robz888]

Interesting things--things I forgot about--happen after that. I start a mini wagon on Scotty. I do think Scotty reacted pretty scummy to it, but... Yuma clearly preferred it as the alternative to raerae. His best last effort to achieve a lynch on a non-mafia was to pivot toward Scotty. Note that this wasn't an entirely desperate thing. He had a good shot at achieving it. It was my idea, I trusted yuma, Scotty was kind of scummy, we had Eevee on board for it.

Scotty is very, very unlikely to be scum, based on Day 1. Whereas mcmc did exactly what scum would have done, especially in comparison to Scotty.

And if it had gone through, how good he and raerae would have looked. It also explains why yuma was so frustrated Day 2. I'm liking scott more and more.

No way. If it had gone through, he still would have been down a partner. Scum teams that lose people on Day 1 go on to lose the game, with rare exception. Busing rarely works, and yuma knows that.

Look man, I'm telling you it's highly improbable.

[Robz888]

You are just wrong to prefer the Scotty lynch to the mcmc. Absolutely, completely wrong.

[Robz888]

I mean, we know yuma didn't want to bus, because he didn't bus. He tossed out the L-2 vote for raerae and then took it back in a move of desperation to get some other lynch.

[pingpongsam]

I'm in total agreement that mcmc is the other scum. I felt ADK was the overwhelmingly best choice until his claim but consistently found mcmc to be the only viable alternative. I felt his response to the notion that vigs should shoot him could be a concealed knowledge that he has a decent chance of roleblocking the vig and that his reaction to the idea we would lynch him today was concealed resignation that his already slim chances of actually making it to a win were finally just ended without protracting it any further. Speaking of reaction reads, when ADK was apologizing for his bad play immediately prior to his claim I felt it seemed fairly sincere even though I was still certain he was the scum. It just didn't feel like scum throwing in the towel but really more like town owning bad play. I guess, I'm saying lal that because when it comes down to it I play a pretty terrible solve the setup game or a logical deduction game ala xeiron but I play an extremely good psychological/emotional game and these are my reads in that department and thus I do support a

Vote: mcmcsalot

[mcmcsalot]

okay waste your time lynching me. I am really not in the mood to defend myself at all. I am however town, do what you want with it. My guess for the last scum is still PPS, but who knows, I got nothing past that.

[mcmcsalot]

okay waste your time lynching me. I am really not in the mood to defend myself at all. I am however town, do what you want with it. My guess for the last scum is still PPS, but who knows, I got nothing past that.

I don't think mail-mi is scummy, axxle could be, scott could be, who else is there?

[pingpongsam]

Unvote until I see where shraeye stands on mcmcsalot. I know he is interested in at least looking at some of the other guys. Out of scotty, mail-mi and Axxle I would have to pick Axxle. He did some things that I just don't think scum would do but are not completely outside the bounds of what scum colud do. I think mail-mi and scotty both operated outside the parameters of anything self-serving scum would do. I'm open to reading anyone's analysis on anyone, though, because I am surely still tunneled from where I was earlier.

[mail-mi]

So yeah mcmc's voting history looks bad, but I mean it has to be either him or scotty. It has to. And I'm fine with lynching either one first.

[mcmcsalot]

So yeah mcmc's voting history looks bad, but I mean it has to be either him or scotty. It has to. And I'm fine with lynching either one first.

My voting history looks bad, I wanted to lynch raerae, I want to lynch pps, why do people think he's town now?

[scott_pilgrim]

I like Robz's case, vote: mcmcsalot

[Axxle]

I like Robz's case, vote: mcmcsalot

"It's not me"

[pingpongsam]

I have to go back and read shraeye. I know I picked up an obvtown move he made and assigned him town status from that point forward. I don't recall what that thing was and I'm interested to see if it sticks out again.

[Axxle]

I have to go back and read shraeye. I know I picked up an obvtown move he made and assigned him town status from that point forward. I don't recall what that thing was and I'm interested to see if it sticks out again.

He's either town or super-bussing.

[pingpongsam]

First thing that sticks out is raerae and yuma get a decent bus on shraeye very early in the game.

He ends up voting yuma while successfully defending himself without looking scummy doing it. He didn't waver from the yuma lynch when Robz started talking against it.

He goes on to roughly read town where we now know there is town. This, in and of itself, can certainly be a scumtell. He seems really committed to a yuma lynch which may come off as a cred move later.

Oh, he sees yuma isn't going anywhere and puts raerae to L-2. When yuma does his vote waffling shraeye states it as the obvious scum activity it was, he doesn't leave an out at all. He dares the raerae lynch which Robz agrees to. He insistently maintainins a vote on raerae and calling out yuma as a partner even saying he wants yuma's head D2. I really don't think scum would be this brazen on D1 and if shraeye is the other partner then raerae and yuma hate his guts right now.

D2 he goes straight to yuma. the PPS thing starts getting geared up and he flat out prefers yuma over PPS which, for me, is a pretty big towntell. He townreads me, Robz and scotty. He will not back off yuma.

Today he has encouraged us out of the PPS/ADK tunnel consistently well ahead of ADK's claim.

From that I maintain a very strong town read on shraeye. There is the possibility that he outright raped his partners back to back D1/D2 and thinks he can leverage that for the win through the multiple days to follow. If that were the case I think he would not be such a dissenting voice when it was clearly going to be easy to lynch either PPS or ADK.

[Robz888]

The argument that like Scotty is scum who was busing I think applies much better to shraeye. Shraeye's dedication to lynching raerae and Yuma as so strident, so accurate... It was almost uncanny.  Town is rarely on top of things that well.

That said, it's probably a losing strategy, and mcmc is manifestly scummier.

[pingpongsam]

Well, only guy I haven't explicitly re-read with the exception of Robz who we are all gonna die anyway if he's scum is Axxle.

Axxle voted me right off the bat for the BMO claim. But he was quick to move onto yuma. then jumps towards shraeye, seems to be well-paced quasi-RVS with intent to gauge reactions so far.

Hints he was masons with Eevee, was this possible?

Announced intent to hammer on raerae and put her back at L-1 when ADK unvoted her but then unvoted himself when yuma pressured him, hmmmmm. Explains it all away and goes back to shraeye vote.

Flirts with other wagons; votes scotty but indicates he would still hammer raerae, this does looks like the hammer cred game. Gets dfrunk and joins shraeye as the second vote on yuma, wow this does look fishy. I join this yuma vote and he begins to spin me as scum.

yuma argues with shraeye's vote on him and Axxle responds by unvoting yuma. shortly he says yuma "townslipped". Axxle hammers raerae, for cred? It is not at all clear, let's go look at D2.

Goes straight for a scotty vote as a raerae wagon analysis. Defends yuma's D1 behavior which was so scummy it dripped scum and then sees the stupidity of that and votes yuma. Still contends scotty may be a decent lynch due to raerae leaving him alone D1.

The seed has sprouted time to start the lynch-PPS campaign. vote PPS because he is the easy mislynch. Seems bemused by my antagonizing of yuma, maintains we are both scummy.

When the going gets tough on yuma he decides to put him at L-1. I have to say this move really does look towny. yuma or me could have easily been axed and while yuma was sure to happen there was no need to force it to happen for the cred when there was some possibility it could be deflected onto me. He even asks me to hammer which actually looks pretty cred-grabby to me now. Encourages ADK to hammer as well. hmmmmm

D3 he goes straight to the PPS. I give him town cred for pointing out that Robz was soft-resulted by Eevee.

He admits he was autopilot for the PPS lynch, unvotes and says he will reread. The ADK claim comes out and all the rules have since changed. Back to a scott vote after we sort out the setup implications.


wow, so I have to put Axxle firmly into the null to scummy category from that reread.

[pingpongsam]

Okay, I just reread my own reread and I would dial Axxle back to just plain old NULL. Inscrutably null. The tough sell on anyone other than mcmcsalot is that all the other possibilities had to have double bussed back to back which while not entirely outside the bounds of reason doesn't apply to mcmcsalot thus making him the more likely culprit.

Intent to vote mcmcsalot pending any new information or perspective.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.7:

scott_pilgrim (3): mail-mi, Axxle, mcmcsalot
Axxle (1): shraeye
mcmcsalot (2): Robz888, scott_pilgrim

Not Voting (2): A Drowned Kernel, pingpongsam

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends at 5:20 p.m. on Wednesday, March 19.

[Axxle]

Vote: mcmc

I'd prefer scott but can't get anything done without robz approval apparently.

[shraeye]

Vote: mcmc

I'd prefer scott but can't get anything done without robz approval apparently.

seriously?

vote: axxle

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.8:

scott_pilgrim (2): mail-mi, mcmcsalot
Axxle (1): shraeye
mcmcsalot (3): Robz888, scott_pilgrim, Axxle

Not Voting (2): A Drowned Kernel, pingpongsam

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends at 5:20 p.m. on Wednesday, March 19.

[Axxle]

Vote: mcmc

I'd prefer scott but can't get anything done without robz approval apparently.

seriously?

vote: axxle

Revoting me, A+

[Axxle]

Vote: mcmc

I'd prefer scott but can't get anything done without robz approval apparently.

seriously?

vote: axxle

Revoting me, A+

Sorry, that was a bit too grouchy. I signed a civility pledge.

Why is what I said scummy? Why am I scummy in general?

[Robz888]

Well, I'm an IC and you're not. Everyone should pretty much sheep me and ADK, yes.

That said, I am quite capable of changing my mind--I was deadset on lynching PPS earlier today. I can still change my mind, if you show me why my overwhelming case for why mcmc is scummier than Scott is wrong.

[Robz888]

Speaking of which, I would love if ADK would get in here and respond to my case.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I've read through most of day one and I think your case on mc is pretty solid, and that scotty is most likely town. I'm going to take a look at day two and make up my mind whether it should be mc or if we should reconsider pps.

[Robz888]

I've read through most of day one and I think your case on mc is pretty solid, and that scotty is most likely town. I'm going to take a look at day two and make up my mind whether it should be mc or if we should reconsider pps.

Terrific! Thank you very much. I should look at Day 2 as well.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Okay, so mcmc voices half-hearted support for the Yuma lynch but never commits to it and tries to get a bunch of other lynches going. That with his D-1 one behavior, as Robz laid out, make him seem like scum to me. PPS gets into it with Yuma and even though I still don't like the whole "I was scum-baiting!" thing I'm willing to pass him over for lynching for now.

Vote: mc

That's L-1.

[A Drowned Kernel]

Hints he was masons with Eevee, was this possible?

Not really relevant, but seriously?

[Axxle]

Well, I'm an IC and you're not. Everyone should pretty much sheep me and ADK, yes.

Wait is this what you're referring to shraeye? Of course I know Robz is town, that doesn't mean he's right.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 3.9:

scott_pilgrim (2): mail-mi, mcmcsalot
Axxle (1): shraeye
mcmcsalot (4): Robz888, scott_pilgrim, Axxle, ADK

Not Voting (1): pingpongsam

With 8 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 3 ends at 5:20 p.m. on Wednesday, March 19.

[mail-mi]

Has mcmc claimed?

[Robz888]

Has mcmc claimed?

Yeah, VT. You can hammer.

[pingpongsam]

Has mcmc claimed?

Yeah, VT. You can hammer.

Vote :mcmcsalot

[Teproc]

Final Day 2 Vote Count:

mcmcsalot (5): Robz888, scott_pilgrim, Axxle, A Drowned Kernel, pingpongsam
scott_pilgrim (2): mail-mi, mcmcsalot
Axxle (1): shraeye

Not Voting (0):

With 8 alive, it took 5 to lynch.

[Teproc]

The thread is not locked. Ashersky will lock and flip when he gets there.

[pingpongsam]

Ashersky is usually posting around this time...  Although here we just started DST so maybe soon?

[ashersky]

There was a lot of finger pointing going on, plus a crazy game of Card Wars!

Everyone wanted some apple pie from Tree Trunks, so she offered to bake some if the group finished up.  They were pretty much decided that anyone who floats all the time was more likely to turn evil.

Marceline shrugged.  "I guess I'll drink that goo, but really, I'm not bad!" she said.  She took a tiny sip, then turned paler than usual.  "Ewwww, gross!"  Marceline flew out of the house!

Mcmcsalot, inhabiting the body of Marceline, was lynched!  He was a Vanilla Townie.

Night has begun.

[ashersky]

24 hour action submission deadline and 48 hour night both apply.

[ashersky]

Everyone was a bit sad that night, and didn't sleep well.  When they woke up, they noticed someone else was missing...

A Drowned Kernel, inhabiting the body of Gunter the Penguin, has been removed from the party!  He was a Town Cop.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.0:

Not Voting (6):  scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mail-mi, pingpongsam, shraeye, Axxle

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on March 25 at 8:00 a.m.

[pingpongsam]

Safe to say we had no Doctor or somehow the Doctor got roleblocked. I actually expected Robz to get Nk'd and ADK to get roleblocked. As such, I am still fostering a suspicion on Robz but after my rereads yesterday am most willing to vote Axxle. I am withholding the actual vote until we get some discussion going though.

[pingpongsam]

I will say the mcmcsalot mislynch was worthwhile because he refused to defend himself or even try to make a case besides the PPS case. Considering the case against him and the VT claim I don't know that there were any better options yesterday.

[Axxle]

Safe to say we had no Doctor or somehow the Doctor got roleblocked.

Why assume this?

[pingpongsam]

Safe to say we had no Doctor or somehow the Doctor got roleblocked.

Why assume this?

Because it would be idiotic to not Doctor the Cop.

[Axxle]

Safe to say we had no Doctor or somehow the Doctor got roleblocked.

Why assume this?

Because it would be idiotic to not Doctor the Cop.

The cop who's a newbie and can get roleblocked all day ery day?

[Robz888]

Bummed to have been wrong but relieved to be alive. ADK was never going to successfully investigate, so oh well to that.

[pingpongsam]

Safe to say we had no Doctor or somehow the Doctor got roleblocked.

Why assume this?

Because it would be idiotic to not Doctor the Cop.

The cop who's a newbie and can get roleblocked all day ery day?

Point taken. If I were the Doctor I would have doctored ADK. Sure his investigation fails but we keep an IC. I think it through it makes perfects sense to have NK'd ADK but I say it was risky. I suppose the smart scum move was to NK and roleblock ADK in the same night to edge case the doctor.

[Robz888]

Well, I have some thoughts, but I think it would be more helpful if other people went ahead and said what they were thinking, first.

[pingpongsam]

Here are my thoughts in no particular order:

If I go by my reads yesterday I pick Axxle.

I could still be a viable lynch today. I don't know if scum wants to go there today or not. ADK came around yesterday but mcmc wasn't coming off a PPS lynch so it may look like I did a fine job of offing my detractors if you think I am scum.

I was willing to drop the notion that Robz might be scum yesterday and I don't think it is totally worth pursuing today but if we go through another mislynch cycle and he's still alive and I'm still alive tomorrow I would be forced to take it into serious consideration. All we have is Eevee is saying something that certainly looks a soft-claim but might not be. That this concerned me earlier makes it feel like one of those gut things. Eevee is either groaning that an obvious soft-claim isn't being accepted or he's groaning that he inadvertently made what amounts to an obvious soft-claim. The closer we get to LYLO the more credence I give the possibility that Eevee was misinterpreted.

IIRC, all remaining players would have had to double bus their partner except for me and scotty. I did not vote for raerae D1 and scotty did not vote for yuma D2. Axxle and Robz I can see dancing the double bus, especially Robz. Shraeye, I dunno. mail-mi, no way.

That's about all I have at all, nothing held back. Prefer Axxle, still considering Robz. Would certainly entertain cases on anyone. Expect someone to reignite a PPS witchhunt but not so sure scum would do that today but definitely tomorrow.

[Axxle]

I want to lynch anyone with doubts about Robz, because that's just going to be absolutely terrible to keep them around in LYLO.

It should be pretty easy to win this, we have a ridiculous number of chances.

Actually would a No Lynch be helpful right now?

[pingpongsam]

I want to lynch anyone with doubts about Robz, because that's just going to be absolutely terrible to keep them around in LYLO.

It should be pretty easy to win this, we have a ridiculous number of chances.

Actually would a No Lynch be helpful right now?

See this is the scummy thing. Lynch the guy playing the game but don't bother to play it yourself.

Why are you 100% sold on Robz being town? How can you be so perfectly certain? I say there is some room for doubt and you scream for my blood. You maintain that there is no room for doubt as if one single piece of a sentence cannot possibly be taken out of context.

Assume for one hypothetical moment that Robz is scum. Does any of his behavior represent scummy behavior? I think so. His declaration that mcmcsalot was absolutely certain to be the final scum yesterday strikes me as super scummy. In fact, it is the damned declarations of such certainty I find so scummy. why so certain?

Maybe it's because I'd rather lynch you first?

[pingpongsam]

Actually would a No Lynch be helpful right now?

Practically always a scum suggestion.

Yesterday was a perfectly useless day. We already knew ADK was Town Cop so his NK flip gave us no information. mcmcsalot refused to defend himself and he wouldn't make a case on anyone but me so his flip was basically uninformative as well because no one can be faulted for voting him and I have no reason to believe scum even helped lynch him. If we had flipped me yesterday we'd be flipping him today.

Who do you think gets NK'd if we No Lynch today? If you have answers to that question then you've sufficiently narrowed your lynch pool to take No Lynch off the table IMHO. In my case I think we either lose Robz if he is indeed Town or we lose me. Of course, I was already out of my own lynch pool.

I think trying to make a case for No Lynch is the safe scum gambit for avoiding making a case on anyone.

[Axxle]

I want to lynch anyone with doubts about Robz, because that's just going to be absolutely terrible to keep them around in LYLO.

It should be pretty easy to win this, we have a ridiculous number of chances.

Actually would a No Lynch be helpful right now?

See this is the scummy thing. Lynch the guy playing the game but don't bother to play it yourself.

Why are you 100% sold on Robz being town? How can you be so perfectly certain? I say there is some room for doubt and you scream for my blood. You maintain that there is no room for doubt as if one single piece of a sentence cannot possibly be taken out of context.

Assume for one hypothetical moment that Robz is scum. Does any of his behavior represent scummy behavior? I think so. His declaration that mcmcsalot was absolutely certain to be the final scum yesterday strikes me as super scummy. In fact, it is the damned declarations of such certainty I find so scummy. why so certain?

Maybe it's because I'd rather lynch you first?

I feel like he's acting really town and the Eevee thing solidifies it. Cops should be trusted to breadcrumb.

[Axxle]

Actually would a No Lynch be helpful right now?

Practically always a scum suggestion.

Yesterday was a perfectly useless day. We already knew ADK was Town Cop so his NK flip gave us no information. mcmcsalot refused to defend himself and he wouldn't make a case on anyone but me so his flip was basically uninformative as well because no one can be faulted for voting him and I have no reason to believe scum even helped lynch him. If we had flipped me yesterday we'd be flipping him today.

Who do you think gets NK'd if we No Lynch today? If you have answers to that question then you've sufficiently narrowed your lynch pool to take No Lynch off the table IMHO. In my case I think we either lose Robz if he is indeed Town or we lose me. Of course, I was already out of my own lynch pool.

I think trying to make a case for No Lynch is the safe scum gambit for avoiding making a case on anyone.

I just wanted to remind people it's an option. I think chances are that today is bad for it, but tomorrow it's absolutely the right choice (only 2 town have to be right instead of 3). If I die today or tonight I want people to realize that.

[Axxle]

Actually would a No Lynch be helpful right now?

Practically always a scum suggestion.

Yesterday was a perfectly useless day. We already knew ADK was Town Cop so his NK flip gave us no information. mcmcsalot refused to defend himself and he wouldn't make a case on anyone but me so his flip was basically uninformative as well because no one can be faulted for voting him and I have no reason to believe scum even helped lynch him. If we had flipped me yesterday we'd be flipping him today.

Who do you think gets NK'd if we No Lynch today? If you have answers to that question then you've sufficiently narrowed your lynch pool to take No Lynch off the table IMHO. In my case I think we either lose Robz if he is indeed Town or we lose me. Of course, I was already out of my own lynch pool.

I think trying to make a case for No Lynch is the safe scum gambit for avoiding making a case on anyone.

I just wanted to remind people it's an option. I think chances are that today is bad for it, but tomorrow it's absolutely the right choice (only 2 town have to be right instead of 3). If I die today or tonight I want people to realize that.

Actually now that I think about this more I might be wrong.

[Robz888]

Axxle, you are correct. We will absolutely lynch today. Tomorrow, if the game continues, the correct move is absolutely No Lynch.

[shraeye]

It should be pretty easy to win this, we have a ridiculous number of chances.

This is manifestly untrue.  We have 2 chances, without beneficial night results.

[mail-mi]

I want to lynch anyone with doubts about Robz, because that's just going to be absolutely terrible to keep them around in LYLO.

It should be pretty easy to win this, we have a ridiculous number of chances.

Actually would a No Lynch be helpful right now?

I wouldn't go so far as to say "Lynch he who doubts Robz without question!" But Robz is town.

[shraeye]

I want to lynch anyone with doubts about Robz, because that's just going to be absolutely terrible to keep them around in LYLO.

It should be pretty easy to win this, we have a ridiculous number of chances.

Actually would a No Lynch be helpful right now?

I wouldn't go so far as to say "Lynch he who doubts Robz without question!" But Robz is town.

I agree with this.

[shraeye]

on both counts.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.1:

Not Voting (6):  scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mail-mi, pingpongsam, shraeye, Axxle

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on March 25 at 8:00 a.m.

[Axxle]

It should be pretty easy to win this, we have a ridiculous number of chances.

This is manifestly untrue.  We have 2 chances, without beneficial night results.

We have no vig and no masons, we'll probably have beneficial night results.

[Robz888]

^I don't know about that, but there's no reason to speculate.

[Axxle]

^I don't know about that, but there's no reason to speculate.

"We have no vig and no masons, we'll probably have beneficial night results."
Sounds like a reason to speculate.

It's NOT a reason to out anyone prematurely though.

[Robz888]

Speculation today will only help scum tonight. Tomorrow is full-claim day, regardless.

[Axxle]

Speculation today will only help scum tonight. Tomorrow is full-claim day, regardless.

I don't mean open speculation, I mean we each individually should think about what's possible this game.

[pingpongsam]

prod: scotty

[ashersky]

prod: scotty

Sent.

[mail-mi]

So, according to my D1 theory, Scotty is the only not conf!town on the raerae wagon #1 so vote: scotty

[pingpongsam]

Can you post some of the more cogent points of this theory?

[shraeye]

Indeed, mailmi; I'm not sure why scotty comes off the scummiest of people on raerae's wagon.


I'm still most suspicious of Axxle's voting history.

He was the "I'll hammer in exactly 30 mins"-*hammers in exactly 30 mins* sort of vote that feels mostly like scum being extra careful not to be accused of ending discussion, or swooping in for credit.  I don't think town does this so by the book, when it was clear that raerae was being lynched and that she wasn't going to claim anything.

Then on day 1, he jumped immediately at scotty, for his interaction with raerae.  Then said

Yuma's got some pretty weak reasons for not being on raerae, but I feel like he'd try a bit harder to find better ones if he was scum.

Really weak accuse/not-accuse on yuma.  He voted yuma, realizing that this is exactly what lead me to pair yuma/raerae together.

However, as soon as steam picked up on PPS, Axxle was on that like white on rice.  He then switched back to yuma once Robz jumped in and declared yuma the D2 lynch.  At that point yuma's lynch was inevitable.

He was on both wagons, but he only joined in the final lynches of his partners when they were absolutely inevitable.

[shraeye]

vote: axxle

[mail-mi]

Can you post some of the more cogent points of this theory?

Well my theory was that the initial raerae wagon was started up on scum to give her a day 1 wagon, then use that as a way to get her not lynched in the following days. Well, Scotty is the only one not scum on that wagon. I think that scotty would probably bus, because I have a bit of a hard time believing that it was all town on a scum wagon.

[pingpongsam]

Can you post some of the more cogent points of this theory?

Well my theory was that the initial raerae wagon was started up on scum to give her a day 1 wagon, then use that as a way to get her not lynched in the following days. Well, Scotty is the only one not scum on that wagon. I think that scotty would probably bus, because I have a bit of a hard time believing that it was all town on a scum wagon.

Well, we already know that yuma was bussing raerae so it's beyond theory that raerae was to get bussed D1 although apparently not to death just hopefully for cred. I don't parse your second sentence at all. If scotty is not scum why are you voting him? We have already established that if the final scum isn't me nor Robz then it must be someone who bussed both D1 and D2. Your analysis stops short of D2, BTW. What behavior besides the bus did scotty exhibit that you think ranks him above the rest of the players for lynch today?

[mail-mi]

Can you post some of the more cogent points of this theory?

Well my theory was that the initial raerae wagon was started up on scum to give her a day 1 wagon, then use that as a way to get her not lynched in the following days. Well, Scotty is the only one not scum on that wagon. I think that scotty would probably bus, because I have a bit of a hard time believing that it was all town on a scum wagon.

Well, we already know that yuma was bussing raerae so it's beyond theory that raerae was to get bussed D1 although apparently not to death just hopefully for cred. I don't parse your second sentence at all. If scotty is not scum why are you voting him? We have already established that if the final scum isn't me nor Robz then it must be someone who bussed both D1 and D2. Your analysis stops short of D2, BTW. What behavior besides the bus did scotty exhibit that you think ranks him above the rest of the players for lynch today?

Well there's also POE.
It's not you.
It's not robz.
Pretty sure it's not shraeye
Also pretty sure it's not axxle
So it has to be scotty.

[pingpongsam]

Why not Axxle?

[Teproc]

Vote Count 4.2:

Axxle (1) : shraeye

Not Voting (5):  scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mail-mi, pingpongsam, Axxle

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on March 25 at 8:00 a.m.

[pingpongsam]

I was wrong. D2, scotty was not voting when yuma got lynched.

[pingpongsam]

I picked this up in my read of him yesterday but forgot it along the way.

Still want to hear mail-mi's reason for placing scotty ahead of Axxle.

[mail-mi]

I picked this up in my read of him yesterday but forgot it along the way.

Still want to hear mail-mi's reason for placing scotty ahead of Axxle.

Because Axxle is townier.

[Axxle]

Indeed, mailmi; I'm not sure why scotty comes off the scummiest of people on raerae's wagon.


I'm still most suspicious of Axxle's voting history.

He was the "I'll hammer in exactly 30 mins"-*hammers in exactly 30 mins* sort of vote that feels mostly like scum being extra careful not to be accused of ending discussion, or swooping in for credit.  I don't think town does this so by the book, when it was clear that raerae was being lynched and that she wasn't going to claim anything.

Then on day 1, he jumped immediately at scotty, for his interaction with raerae.  Then said

Yuma's got some pretty weak reasons for not being on raerae, but I feel like he'd try a bit harder to find better ones if he was scum.

Really weak accuse/not-accuse on yuma.  He voted yuma, realizing that this is exactly what lead me to pair yuma/raerae together.

However, as soon as steam picked up on PPS, Axxle was on that like white on rice.  He then switched back to yuma once Robz jumped in and declared yuma the D2 lynch.  At that point yuma's lynch was inevitable.

He was on both wagons, but he only joined in the final lynches of his partners when they were absolutely inevitable.

Oh the straws! They should file a restraining order against you for how much you're grasping them.

Re: the raerae vote, I did a similar thing in Mario mafia but completely failed to be around for the deadline.  I made sure I was here this time.

The yuma thing I can explain, but I'd rather wait till tomorrow.

[scott_pilgrim]

Posting since I have been prodded, sorry I've been busy recently and was traveling yesterday.  I'll post something of content soon.

[pingpongsam]

I picked this up in my read of him yesterday but forgot it along the way.

Still want to hear mail-mi's reason for placing scotty ahead of Axxle.

Because Axxle is townier.

Can you enunciate how? Without a look into your thought process I am having trouble coming around to your thinking. I have posted reads on Axxle and Scotty and can clearly delineate why I currently find Axxle scummier. I am wide open to new perspective but "X is townier than Y" isn't sufficient perspective for me.

[scott_pilgrim]

mail-mi, your case on me is not really helpful.  I mean, it's fine if you want to vote for me because you think everyone else if townier, but if you don't explain why everyone else is townier then you can't expect others to follow.

Axxle: I don't see how shraeye is grasping at straws?  Those all seem like reasonable points, though I could see how you would disagree with the hammer thing.  You said you would talk about the yuma thing tomorrow (I assume you mean in-game tomorrow), okay, but if that's a contributing factor in why people vote for you, you shouldn't expect to get away with "I have an explanation for it, just wait until tomorrow".

Has anyone considered the possibility of mail-mi being scum?  Just wondering because it seems like everyone else who's alive except Robz (who is pretty much an IC) has been brought to attention, and I don't remember almost anything about mail-mi this game.

I think I want to re-read this game at some point but I will be busy for the next few days at least.

Also, just a note: I had fully intended to vote for yuma D2, but I didn't do it right away, and then didn't feel like I wanted to let the day end as early as it did, so I just never ended up voting him.  I know that's not really helpful since I could still say that as scum, but I just thought I would bring it up since people have been talking about how I wasn't on the yuma wagon.

[Axxle]

mail-mi, your case on me is not really helpful.  I mean, it's fine if you want to vote for me because you think everyone else if townier, but if you don't explain why everyone else is townier then you can't expect others to follow.

Axxle: I don't see how shraeye is grasping at straws?  Those all seem like reasonable points, though I could see how you would disagree with the hammer thing.  You said you would talk about the yuma thing tomorrow (I assume you mean in-game tomorrow), okay, but if that's a contributing factor in why people vote for you, you shouldn't expect to get away with "I have an explanation for it, just wait until tomorrow".

Has anyone considered the possibility of mail-mi being scum?  Just wondering because it seems like everyone else who's alive except Robz (who is pretty much an IC) has been brought to attention, and I don't remember almost anything about mail-mi this game.

I think I want to re-read this game at some point but I will be busy for the next few days at least.

Also, just a note: I had fully intended to vote for yuma D2, but I didn't do it right away, and then didn't feel like I wanted to let the day end as early as it did, so I just never ended up voting him.  I know that's not really helpful since I could still say that as scum, but I just thought I would bring it up since people have been talking about how I wasn't on the yuma wagon.

They seem like silly reasons from my pov, obv, bbq.

I'm willing to explain it (ingame) today but if I don't need to I won't.

I haven't considered it to hard, he seems pretty town but I can't think of specifics, it's more like he has not done anything scummy all game but still keeps a presence.

[pingpongsam]

Has anyone considered the possibility of mail-mi being scum?  Just wondering because it seems like everyone else who's alive except Robz (who is pretty much an IC) has been brought to attention, and I don't remember almost anything about mail-mi this game.

There's my mail-mi read from D3.

If shraeye is towny then mail-mi is townier because shraeye's level of bussing if he were scum comes off far more intentional than would mail-mi's were he scum.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.3:

Axxle (1) : shraeye

Not Voting (5):  scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mail-mi, pingpongsam, Axxle

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on March 25 at 8:00 a.m.

[scott_pilgrim]

They seem like silly reasons from my pov, obv, bbq.

I'm willing to explain it (ingame) today but if I don't need to I won't.

That's totally reasonable, I was just saying don't be surprised if people hold that against you (or vote you with the intention of making you explain).

I haven't considered it to hard, he seems pretty town but I can't think of specifics, it's more like he has not done anything scummy all game but still keeps a presence.

This is roughly how I feel about mail-mi as well, which is why I wanted to bring him up, just because that's exactly where I would want to be as scum.

[Robz888]

Well, here's where I am: Nowhere, really. My confidence is pretty shaken in the wake of mcmc's flip.

That said, my best guess is... PPS. If he's scum, it means there was zero busing of raerae. This... would not surprise me, actually. Losing a scum partner Day 1 is TERRIBLE, and busing doesn't even get you much because it's not like you are declared an IC or anything. Far, far better is to just not have your partner lynched, which is absolutely what yuma was trying to accomplish on Day 1. If the third person bused, that person really undermined yuma's stridently anti-lynch-raerae agenda.

The complicating factor is that PPS showed up just before Axxle hammered raerae, and said a bunch of nonsense.

Available by phone to deadline trying to analyze the raerae wagon now.

Why is yuma not voting raerae?

Still reading raerae as town and could nitpick the wagoneers but mostly see a misled town see more scum in yuma, eevee and ADK, agree it does feel similar to DoP.

If I had to pick scum off the raerae wagon :

Robz: way out of meta with so many votes inclined to read this as willing town though since scum Robz wouldn't be so active.

Mcmc: agree with some earlier reads on him, he has felt relatively scummy all game to me but iinm I have no meta on him.

Scott could be the Ahoppy of this game.

Shraye is way too enthusiastic about the wagon but the limb this puts him on is not made for scum

Why is Axxle not voting?

Why is Axxle not voting?

Please read my posts.

So, because you're waiting on a claim that will be useless when you are forced to hammer in 30 minutes? I can see why you didn't want to type that nonsense out yourself. So, what is the real reason?

It's very hard to make sense of all this, from a town or scum perspective. If my theory is right, this is PPS saying stuff before his partner goes down. What was the purpose of all this? I think I read it as scum trying too hard, really. Look, he knows he can either hammer raerae himself, but won't like very townie for doing it because it's a foregone conclusion that she's being lynched. In fact, stealing the hammer from Axxle might itself look scummy, like he wanted the fake towncred. So he's essentially shut out of being on the wagon at this point. So, he has to post a bunch of stuff and make it look genuine, like he doesn't know what the flip is going to be. I guess that's a way to read all this that I can live with.

[Robz888]

I think Scott is very unlikely based on what I said yesterday. Of course, it could just be the case that he happened to play the *perfect* town way and now just looks unreasonably townie. He was a very lucky newbie scum to stumble into that, if that's what happened. Would be an unfortunate end to all of this.

Interestingly enoug,h mail-mi is usually very scummy and often mislynched. I think it this game mail-mi has been completely NOT scummy, which maybe should be telling me something.

Axxle... Axxle has done a couple things that I really, really think scum would not do. Namely, granting--and pushing--my IC status. That has to be a terrible move for scum in his position. Contrast with PPS, who tries to undermine the fact that I am town in subtle, irksome ways.

Shraeye, I really haven't had a good read on, but have been thinking he is town because others think that.

It seems PPS is the best obvious choice.

[Robz888]

Does anyone disagree? Other than, let's see, shraeye?

[Robz888]

And I must say, I'm frustrated. Not at anyone, everyone is doing a great job and staying pretty active, and I appreciate it. I really, really wish we had just gone along with lynching PPS yesterday. I let myself buy into what he was saying and turned he lynch onto ADK. If that hadn't happened, it's like that our Cop would have wrapped up the game for us last night. I got talked out of the lynch that probably would have either killed scum outright or eliminate a suspect while protecting our cop and providing another investigation result. Instead, after a nearly unprecedented successful Days 1 and 2, we could very easily lose this. I blame myself.

[mail-mi]

And I must say, I'm frustrated. Not at anyone, everyone is doing a great job and staying pretty active, and I appreciate it. I really, really wish we had just gone along with lynching PPS yesterday. I let myself buy into what he was saying and turned he lynch onto ADK. If that hadn't happened, it's like that our Cop would have wrapped up the game for us last night. I got talked out of the lynch that probably would have either killed scum outright or eliminate a suspect while protecting our cop and providing another investigation result. Instead, after a nearly unprecedented successful Days 1 and 2, we could very easily lose this. I blame myself.

...it was PPS that redirected us to ADK and mcmc, wasn't it? And trying to undermine you... But his D1 behavior of redirecting to yuma... ugh.

[Robz888]

And I must say, I'm frustrated. Not at anyone, everyone is doing a great job and staying pretty active, and I appreciate it. I really, really wish we had just gone along with lynching PPS yesterday. I let myself buy into what he was saying and turned he lynch onto ADK. If that hadn't happened, it's like that our Cop would have wrapped up the game for us last night. I got talked out of the lynch that probably would have either killed scum outright or eliminate a suspect while protecting our cop and providing another investigation result. Instead, after a nearly unprecedented successful Days 1 and 2, we could very easily lose this. I blame myself.

...it was PPS that redirected us to ADK and mcmc, wasn't it? And trying to undermine you... But his D1 behavior of redirecting to yuma... ugh.

Yes, manifestly. Well, he was furiously trying to redirect to ADK, and then after the ADK reveal, I proposed mcmc, and he seized upon it with certainty.

His Day 1 behavior of redirecting to yuma...what do you mean? He never put yuma in any danger whatsoever, so I don't see how this is acquitting.

[mail-mi]

And I must say, I'm frustrated. Not at anyone, everyone is doing a great job and staying pretty active, and I appreciate it. I really, really wish we had just gone along with lynching PPS yesterday. I let myself buy into what he was saying and turned he lynch onto ADK. If that hadn't happened, it's like that our Cop would have wrapped up the game for us last night. I got talked out of the lynch that probably would have either killed scum outright or eliminate a suspect while protecting our cop and providing another investigation result. Instead, after a nearly unprecedented successful Days 1 and 2, we could very easily lose this. I blame myself.

...it was PPS that redirected us to ADK and mcmc, wasn't it? And trying to undermine you... But his D1 behavior of redirecting to yuma... ugh.

Yes, manifestly. Well, he was furiously trying to redirect to ADK, and then after the ADK reveal, I proposed mcmc, and he seized upon it with certainty.

His Day 1 behavior of redirecting to yuma...what do you mean? He never put yuma in any danger whatsoever, so I don't see how this is acquitting.

At the end, he was trying to get us on yuma instead of raerae. But,  yeah yuma wasn't in much danger D1 was he? Now I'm really doubting my town read ON PPS

[Axxle]

Gut:
vote: Scott

[Robz888]

Gut:
vote: Scott

Something that you--and other people--keep doing that really annoys me is waiting for me to make a case on someone, ignoring it, and voting for someone else. Why don't you explain your vote for Scott?

[Axxle]

Never.

Honestly I know pps is the lynch today and I'm fine with it but I can still have my fun, right?

[Robz888]

 

[Axxle]

All according to plan.

[Axxle]

All according to plan.

[shraeye]

axxle, quit trying to set up scott as the next "everybody thinks he's scummy so we should lynch him after [insert current lynch du jour name]"

Robz, Axxle pulled the Eevee quote, but somebody was bound to find it.  The fact that he did it first doesn't give him as much town cred as you're giving him.

Also, PPS pushing against you being IC is wrong.  And it's not going to get you lynched.  Nobody is going to get behind it ever.  So it may irk you, but it CERTAINLY is not furthering a scum game at all.

Axxle's poking at scotty is doing exactly that.

[pingpongsam]

Where do we go once I am lynched? I thought about the fact Axxle was so quick to indicate Eevee's result, I mean right after Eevee was NK'd. I find it plausible that scum Axxle discovered the breadcrumb, offed the cop, and propagated the breadcrumb for cred. Whoever the last scum is they are doing extremely well for the current gamestate and I will not be surprised if they win.

[Robz888]

Also, PPS pushing against you being IC is wrong.  And it's not going to get you lynched.  Nobody is going to get behind it ever.  So it may irk you, but it CERTAINLY is not furthering a scum game at all.

I know it's not going to get me lynched, I'm not afraid of it. What I mean is that when I was scum, I used to have the habit of arguing with the IC, and arguing with the virtual ICs. It was a bad habit that got me caught, and I had to work hard to stop doing it. That's why I think it may be scummy.

[Robz888]

I don't think Scotty should be one of our two remaining lynches. I really, really don't.

I think it's going to be PPS. If not PPS, well then it's up to the rest of you to decide tomorrow (Not Scotty!). I guess I would lean toward Axxle at that point. Although I really have to re-read shraeye.

[shraeye]

Do Axxle first.  Just do it.  I haven't led you astray all game.  And I'm tired of posting scummy stuff about Axxle, just to have people go "oh, him?  I have a gut townread on him.  And I'm never ever ever gonna change."

[Robz888]

I hear you. Let me re-read you first. If I'm satisfied that there's no way you're scum... then it's basically I just want us to lynch Axxle and PPS in some order.

[scott_pilgrim]

So right now, I'm guessing Axxle has some kind of "plan" with his vote for me, which is maybe supposed to elicit a similar response from me as Robz's "random" vote D1.  I'm not really sure what the point of that would be, I already responded frustratedly to that kind of vote once this game and I still think it's frustrating to have someone drop a vote on you with no explanation, but Axxle has also already given reasons (or maybe just one reason?) for voting me, which is that raerae didn't jump on my wagon D1.  Again, there's nothing I can do to defend myself there, I don't know why raerae did that.

I'm not really sure where I stand at this point, Axxle and PPS both stand out as saying the most memorable things, which I would naturally associate as scummy, but scum probably doesn't want to be jumping out at people so that means mail-mi and shraeye are still worth considering, and I totally need to re-read them because I feel like I don't remember anything about them this game.  So I still plan to try to do a re-read at some point.  But at this point I'm still leaning toward Axxle or PPS.

[pingpongsam]

Vote: Axxle

[Axxle]

Where do we go once I am lynched? I thought about the fact Axxle was so quick to indicate Eevee's result, I mean right after Eevee was NK'd. I find it plausible that scum Axxle discovered the breadcrumb, offed the cop, and propagated the breadcrumb for cred. Whoever the last scum is they are doing extremely well for the current gamestate and I will not be surprised if they win.

what cop breadcrumb? And it was super easy to scan all of eevees day 2 posts like shraeye said.

[pingpongsam]

what cop breadcrumb? And it was super easy to scan all of eevees day 2 posts like shraeye said.

I'm not sure how you can ask the 1st question followed by the second sentence. I don't know how to respond to that. You posted it so surely you know "what cop breadcrumb". I would ask an equally rhetorical question, "What makes you think Robz is town?"; the answer to my question serves to answer your question.

[Axxle]

I'm a 1-shot cop. Investigated Yuma night 1 and it came up town. That's why I was hesitant to vote him but godfather was still a thing so I stopped worrying about it.

[Axxle]

what cop breadcrumb? And it was super easy to scan all of eevees day 2 posts like shraeye said.

I'm not sure how you can ask the 1st question followed by the second sentence. I don't know how to respond to that. You posted it so surely you know "what cop breadcrumb". I would ask an equally rhetorical question, "What makes you think Robz is town?"; the answer to my question serves to answer your question.

how is saying someone is a toe read a breadcrumb? It's only obvious when he flips.

[Axxle]

*town read

[Axxle]

vote: pps

[pingpongsam]

Unvote

Can people who understand the setup confirm the plausibility of Axxle's claim? I'm sure it's either A) plausible because it is true or B) plausible because scum Axxle already worked out the possibilities.

I will go try to figure it out myself but have no faith in getting a correct outcome.

[pingpongsam]

what cop breadcrumb? And it was super easy to scan all of eevees day 2 posts like shraeye said.

I'm not sure how you can ask the 1st question followed by the second sentence. I don't know how to respond to that. You posted it so surely you know "what cop breadcrumb". I would ask an equally rhetorical question, "What makes you think Robz is town?"; the answer to my question serves to answer your question.

how is saying someone is a toe read a breadcrumb? It's only obvious when he flips.

You brought it up after he flipped, that's why.

[Robz888]

Unvote

Can people who understand the setup confirm the plausibility of Axxle's claim? I'm sure it's either A) plausible because it is true or B) plausible because scum Axxle already worked out the possibilities.

I will go try to figure it out myself but have no faith in getting a correct outcome.

Not only is a 1-shot Cop plausible, there must be at least one 1-shot Cop.

[Robz888]

Because all setups that generate a Cop generate at least one 1-shot Cop.

If no one else is a 1-shot Cop, Axxle's claim is certainly true.

[pingpongsam]

Right, but it also appears to me that two 1-shpt cops are a possible scenario.

[Robz888]

Right, but it also appears to me that two 1-shpt cops are a possible scenario.

Correct.

[pingpongsam]

This could be a clever scheme to out the 2nd 1-shot cop if there were one. Only if we had 2 other 1-shot cops amongst us would we be ale to identify him as scum on this claim.

[pingpongsam]

This could be a clever scheme to out the 2nd 1-shot cop if there were one. Only if we had 2 other 1-shot cops amongst us would we be ale to identify him as scum on this claim.

and even then the only certainty would be there is a liar among the 3.

[Robz888]

It's not a clever scheme to out anyone. If he's scum, he knows it was a safe claim regardless.

Hang on though...

[pingpongsam]

This puts me in a tough position. Before it was clearly shaping up as me or Axxle. Regardless of my alignment I have to vote Axxle. However, if I choose to believe Axxle's claim I cannot in good conscience vote him. Obviously I won't be voting myself either. This means I have to make a case on someone not Axxle or choose to disbelieve his claim.

[Robz888]

I want everyone to claim one of the following things:

I am a 1-shot Cop, OR

I am not a 1-shot Cop

---
PPS: Not
Robz888: Not
Axxle: Yes
Shraeye:
Mail-mi:
Scotty:

[pingpongsam]

It's not a clever scheme to out anyone. If he's scum, he knows it was a safe claim regardless.

Hang on though...

Hmmm. I do suppose flipping the real 1-shot cop at night would reveal his true colors for the lynch next day.

[pingpongsam]

Axxle, if you shot your power on yuma N1 why are you just now bringing it up? It seemed appropriate at several instances to have already brought up. Namely, D2 despite the Godfather thing. D3 seemed appropriate as well when we were discovering the setup and when I and others posted reads on you indicating scum behavior surrounding yuma.

[pingpongsam]

I'm not sure I buy that the 1-shot cop expended his power on N1 when we flipped scum D1. I think I would likely hold it for a more complex use.

[Axxle]

I'm not going to out the prs if I don't need to.

I use my pr quickly all the time.

Stop the Massclaim, robz misread the setup with how Es work.

[pingpongsam]

I'm not going to out the prs if I don't need to.

You are no longer a PR if you have shot your power nor does your claim force anyone else to claim, so that argument doesn't hold water here. There were good reasons to divulge your role once you fired but you waited until now to reveal this information.

[pingpongsam]

I don't know that we rolled any Es, I'm thinking we rolled Cs.

[Robz888]

I see what you are saying Axxle, I did miss the E's.

However, I think we should just massclaim at this point. Keeping PRs safe doesn't help us, because tomorrow scum can lie with impunity.

[Axxle]

I'm not going to out the prs if I don't need to.

You are no longer a PR if you have shot your power nor does your claim force anyone else to claim, so that argument doesn't hold water here. There were good reasons to divulge your role once you fired but you waited until now to reveal this information.

It lets scum narrow things down a bit, without giving any information to the town (and would have been negative information in this case)

I don't know that we rolled any Es, I'm thinking we rolled Cs.

CCCCEE would have 4 1-shot cops.

PEdit:

I see what you are saying Axxle, I did miss the E's.

However, I think we should just massclaim at this point. Keeping PRs safe doesn't help us, because tomorrow scum can lie with impunity.

I have to think about that more.

[Robz888]

Today, we have time to massclaim, count up the letters and consider possible game state scenarios. We can lynch base don that in addition to our reads. Hopefully, if we are wrong, it makes the correct thing obvious enough to lynch successfully tomorrow.

If we delay until tomorrow, it's already too late to do that. We have to start now if we want a double check day tomorrow.

[Axxle]

unvote

[Robz888]

So, I just want to hear from everyone their thoughts on this. The biggest counter argument I can see is Vigilante. If we do have a Vigilante, we would want him kept secret and shooting tonight. Out in the open, he can be blocked.

However, I still think this woud be worth it. Odds of a Vig are smaller and smaller, now that I better understand how these Setup Letters work.

[Robz888]

There aren't any Masons, there can't really be more Cops. Now, if we had TWO of something still around, like a Vig AND a Doctor, we would come out ahead in this masslcaim.

Well I guess RB would help us too, if kept secret.

Ashersky: What takes precedence, scum RB or town RB? LEt's say scum RB targets town RB and shoots someone else, and town RB targets scum RB. Does the kill shot get fired?

[pingpongsam]

The possibility that shraeye is the scum keeps entering my mind. If Axxle is town and we flip him today I am almost certainly dead tomorrow. Shraeye is pretty fanatical about lynching Axxle today although not without sound reason (just as I had sound reason on ADK prior to his claim). If we mislynch today and scum succeeds in a NK tonight and then we mislynch me tomorrow scum is one successful NK away from the win. This line of reasoning makes Shraeye's tunnel on Axxle seem somewhat suspect.

BTW, if I were the scum working such an angle my NK tonight would have to be mail-mi.

[Robz888]

Hey, Scotty's on. Let me hear your thoughts, Scotty.

[Robz888]

Shraeye's here, too. WHat do you think, shraeye?

[shraeye]

Because all setups that generate a Cop generate at least one 1-shot Cop.

If no one else is a 1-shot Cop, Axxle's claim is certainly true.

??

What about exactly 2 C-s?

[Robz888]

Because all setups that generate a Cop generate at least one 1-shot Cop.

If no one else is a 1-shot Cop, Axxle's claim is certainly true.

??

What about exactly 2 C-s?

Yeah, my thinking was wrong. But I still think we should massclaim now, so we can try to piece together the setup.

[pingpongsam]

Gotta run to make a counselor's appointment then birthing classes so will be touch and go for the next few hours.

[shraeye]

Axxle, if you shot your power on yuma N1 why are you just now bringing it up? It seemed appropriate at several instances to have already brought up. Namely, D2 despite the Godfather thing. D3 seemed appropriate as well when we were discovering the setup and when I and others posted reads on you indicating scum behavior surrounding yuma.

Indeed, very fishy.  Especially with these 2 early day2 posts by Axxle.

Yuma's got some pretty weak reasons for not being on raerae, but I feel like he'd try a bit harder to find better ones if he was scum.

To those that are surprised by Andrew's death: why?

Yuma's got some pretty weak reasons for not being on raerae, but I feel like he'd try a bit harder to find better ones if he was scum.

Eh. i should stop Wifoming myself.

Vote: Yuma

[scott_pilgrim]

I was going to try to do some probability because I was thinking it was really unlikely to have a cop and a 1-shot cop, but now I realize we could have rolled CC and E, or EEE and C, so it's not as easy as I was thinking.  I still need to look at the set-up some more to know what to think about Axxle's claim and whether full claim is good at this point.

[scott_pilgrim]

But I do agree that if I were Axxle and had used my shot on yuma I would have brought it up at some point D2.

[Robz888]

Concerning Axxle's claim, I mean, he would know htat of the two scum, one is a Godfather, so if I were him I would have put like zero faith in my town result, anyway.

[Robz888]

But I do agree that if I were Axxle and had used my shot on yuma I would have brought it up at some point D2.

That's true, too.

Axxle, why didn't you bring this up?

[Axxle]

I forgot I made that second one. 'Wifoming' is the wrong word but I was hinting that I got a town result.

PEdit: But you're not me though.

PEdit2: Because it's useless info? I guess percentage wise he becomes less likely to be scum but it's not impossible.

If I was scum I would've fakeclaimed right away. There'd be no consequence.

[Robz888]

I forgot I made that second one. 'Wifoming' is the wrong word but I was hinting that I got a town result.

PEdit: But you're not me though.

PEdit2: Because it's useless info? I guess percentage wise he becomes less likely to be scum but it's not impossible.

If I was scum I would've fakeclaimed right away. There'd be no consequence.

Right away, as in when?

But why had that information, is what I am saying. You didn't need to protect your PR status. It was already used up.

[Axxle]

I forgot I made that second one. 'Wifoming' is the wrong word but I was hinting that I got a town result.

PEdit: But you're not me though.

PEdit2: Because it's useless info? I guess percentage wise he becomes less likely to be scum but it's not impossible.

If I was scum I would've fakeclaimed right away. There'd be no consequence.

Right away, as in when?

But why had that information, is what I am saying. You didn't need to protect your PR status. It was already used up.

I'd rather keep scum sweating as to what the town PRs could be rather than come up with next to useless info.

[Axxle]

Right away as to save yuma.

[shraeye]

Shraeye's here, too. WHat do you think, shraeye?

I think a massclaim right now could help things, but I'm still hot on Axxle.  If you call an order for claims to come in, I'm down with it.  I think Axxle's claim sounds exactly like scum trying to buy time with an investigative claim that is incongruous with their actual behavior on the specified day.


Why'd he claim anyway?  Before waiting to see what Robz's specified order to PPS was?  Suppose PPS were scum and PPS was picked first.  Town wins.  Suppose some third person were scum and PPS was picked first.  Then Axxle can gain plenty of info based on who's super-excited to support that plan. 

Suppose Axxle is picked first, THEN he could have PR claimed; putting us essentially in this situation.  It's just better play to pick up those possible reactions first, and that line of play was precluded by this early claim.

[scott_pilgrim]

I think probability tells us roughly nothing about Axxle's claim, I get about 3.3% chance of rolling CC and 2% chance of rolling EEE.*  Since we know that a cop exists, it's probably going to come out somewhere in the 30-70% range as to whether we do or don't have the 1-shot cop as well.  That's not really what I was looking for, if it had been like <10% or >90% it would have been worth noting but it looks like it's not so extreme.  As always with math it's possible I made mistakes so someone can check but I don't think the set-up is going to tell us anything there.  If we do a mass claim it could, so that's still a consideration.


*I didn't take into account that we know we have at most 2 T's or that we know we don't have any M's because that would have made it super messy but it shouldn't affect it too much.

[Robz888]

Well, since I already have Axxle and PPS's claims, (1-shot Cop and VT), I would like shraeye to full claim next, followed by mail-mi, followed by Scotty.

[shraeye]

1-shot Doc.

[Robz888]

Thanks. Mail-mi, you are up.

[ashersky]

Ashersky: What takes precedence, scum RB or town RB?

In all cases, if they exist, a mafia roleblocker's action is processed before a town roleblocker's action in the resolution list.

[Robz888]

Thank you, that's what I thought.

[Robz888]

Mail-mi! I see that you are online. You are needed to claim, please.

[pingpongsam]

I'm back in for an hour before bed.

[mail-mi]

Thanks. Mail-mi, you are up.

I am a Roleblocker. N1, I targeted Shraeye, and the kill still happened. Taht's why I have a townread on him. N2 i missed the submission deadline...oops...heheheh.... and N3 targeted Robz because I really wanted to be sure that he was town. The kill still went through, however, he could have roleblocked me, but that's pretty much out of my mind.

[Robz888]

Thanks. Mail-mi, you are up.

I am a Roleblocker. N1, I targeted Shraeye, and the kill still happened. Taht's why I have a townread on him. N2 i missed the submission deadline...oops...heheheh.... and N3 targeted Robz because I really wanted to be sure that he was town. The kill still went through, however, he could have roleblocked me, but that's pretty much out of my mind.

OH MY GOD.

[Robz888]

Do you realize how huge a mistake you made? If you had blocked anyone else--literally, anyone else--we would probably be winning for sure?

[Robz888]

Day vig: Mail-mi

[Robz888]

And you forgot to shoot night 2? You could have cleared two of the remaining people by now.

[scott_pilgrim]

I am a VT

[Robz888]

I guess there's no use getting mad, but man am I demoralized now...

[mail-mi]

Do you realize how huge a mistake you made? If you had blocked anyone else--literally, anyone else--we would probably be winning for sure?

I wanted to be sure that we weren't putting literally all of our faith and trust into the remaining scum!

[mail-mi]

And you forgot to shoot night 2? You could have cleared two of the remaining people by now.

Yes. I did. I missed the deadline because of a no-electronics rule enforced by my parents that I broke. Several times. I'm soooooooooooooooooo sorry. -_-

[Robz888]

Yeah. It's just that, I mean, you should have bet against me being scum and just rolled with that, because the chance was so small. You guarded against they very unlikely thing, at the cost of making it significantly harder to win from my perspective. Oh well.

[Robz888]

I mean, I guess, I do absolutely believe you, so that's something positive.

[Robz888]

So...

Welcome to MXXXIX: Adventure Time! Mafia!

Players:
1.  Eevee - inhabiting the body of The Lich, was a Town Cop, removed from the party on Night 2.
2.  scott_pilgrim -- Claimed VT
3.  Robz888 -- VT
4.  mail-mi -- Claimed Town Roleblocker
5.  yuma - inhabiting the body of Lady Rainicorn, was the Mafia Godfather, sent to sleepy town on Day 2.
6.  mcmcsalot - inhabiting the body of Marceline, was a Vanilla Townie, got really sick from brown goo on D3.
7.  A Drowned Kernel - inhabiting the body of Gunter the Penguin, was a Town Cop, removed from the party on Night 3.
8.  pingpongsam -- Claimed VT.
9.  raerae - inhabiting the body of The Ice King, was the Mafia Strongman, sent to sleepy town on Day 1.
10. AndrewisFTTW - inhabiting the body of The Goliad, was a Vanilla Townie, removed from the party on Night 1.
11. shraeye -- Claimed 1-shot Doc.
12. Axxle -- Claimed 1-shot Cop.

[mail-mi]

Yeah. It's just that, I mean, you should have bet against me being scum and just rolled with that, because the chance was so small. You guarded against they very unlikely thing, at the cost of making it significantly harder to win from my perspective. Oh well.

and there's still teh chance that u, as scum, roleblocked me and killed ADK, but it's so small that I'm squishing it and ignoring it.

[mail-mi]

wait...

11. shraeye -- Claimed 1-shot Doc.

[/quote]
who did you protect and what night? why did you not protect our claimed cop N3?

[Robz888]

wait...

11. shraeye -- Claimed 1-shot Doc.

who did you protect and what night? why did you not protect our claimed cop N3?
[/quote]

Shraeye, don't answer that.

[mail-mi]

wait...

11. shraeye -- Claimed 1-shot Doc.

who did you protect and what night? why did you not protect our claimed cop N3?

Shraeye, don't answer that.

why shouldn't he?

[Axxle]

Shraeye, don't answer that.

If he protected Andrew N1 it'll confirm mail-mi as town.

[Robz888]

He might still have the shot, and we would rather keep secret whether he does or not.

[Robz888]

In that rare circumstance, you're correct.

Shraeye, I guess just tell us if you Doctored Andrew on Night 1.

[Axxle]

Or it just confirms him as scum roleblocker... silly me.

[Robz888]

Man, do I wish one of you was theorel right now.

Okay, so here's what I am doing... I am elimianting all the setup scenarios that impossible, since everyone has claimed. For instance, I eliminated, all the rolls that generate a Doctor, since we don't have any full Doctors. Same for all the Vig and Mason scenarios.

[Robz888]

Myself, mcmc, and Andrew are VTs for certain. That means three of the six dice rolls were in the VT category. That leaves three dice rolls to generate the rest of the setup.

[mail-mi]

Myself, mcmc, and Andrew are VTs for certain. That means three of the six dice rolls were in the VT category. That leaves three dice rolls to generate the rest of the setup.

um, no it doesn't. It means that you were 3 of the VT's that were filled in after the 6 dice rolls happened.

[Robz888]

Gar. This isn't going to work.

Damn you ashersky. Damn you and your ireducible setup.

[Robz888]

Well, anyway, here's what I have left. 6 dice rolles produced this.

E Roles*
E = 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop
EE = 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop x2
EEE = Doctor OR Cop; 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop
EEEE = Doctor OR Cop; 1-Shot Doctor OR 1-Shot Cop x2

C Roles
C = 1-Shot Cop
CC = Cop
CCC = Cop; 1-Shot Cop


Blocker Roles
B = Roleblocker


Scum Roles (In addition to the Godfather)
TT = Strongman; Roleblocker
T = Strongman; Roleblocker
0 Ts = Strongman; Roleblocker; 1-Shot Bulletproof****

[Axxle]

If everyone is telling the truth: EEECBT and ECCCBT work.

If mailmi is lying: EEECTT and ECCCTT work.

If shraeye is lying: CCCBTT and EEEBTT work.

If I'm lying: ECCBTT works.

There's probably more scenarios that I didn't see immediately, but the game isn't solvable this way.

[Robz888]

Wait, scratch that, I messed up.

[Robz888]

Yeah. I think I really may have led us astray trying to do this sort of analysis. Sorry guys.

[shraeye]

sooo, we still lynching Axxle and winning this?

[pingpongsam]

I do feel that Axxle's claim is the most incongruous. I feel that if it were true he would have said something before now. While I was curious about shraeye's claims I A) find them believable enough to not press and B) find Axxle's question quite fishingy.

I find mail-mi's claim the most believable and am willing to consider him town based on it. It explains his position on Robz and I think the role itself is the harder one to select from the possibilities unlike shraeye's 1-shot doc claim.

I'm not so sure mass claiming was a great idea but I do think it gives Town information we did not have to work with before and I feel we were really shooting in the dark before. It is likely scum's chances of succeeding were increased in a much smaller proportion than our chances of success were increased with the claims.

As it stands, I am a bit suspicious of shraeye and am currently unwilling to lynch Axxle as long as he is the only champion of that flip.

My lynch preference is ordered by preference:

Axxle
Shraeye
scotty
mail-mi
PPS
Robz

I put myself ahead of Robz because I think my flipping Town would be better than losing an IC. I am choosing believe mail-mi's claim and it confirms Robz as the IC everyone believes him to be. If scum!Robz wins this game, though, I reserve a big fat "I Told You So" to everyone.

[shraeye]

mail-mi's claim is unfortunate, but 100% believable.  I would expect scum to fake claim here, and wouldn't be disappointed at all if people were picking between me and Axxle.  PPS remains towny, and scotty remains null-towny.  So my list is axxle>scotty>PPS>Robz=mailmi=shraeye.  I really only want Axxle here.

[Robz888]

Well, but look, you give good reason for me to insist on PPS today, because you will still be around to lynch Axxle tomorrow. Whereas if I am right, and we lynch Axxle, and I die, you will do something stupid like lynch Scotty.

[Robz888]

My preference is PPS > Axxle > shraeye ................................. > Scotty

Mail-mi is confirmed town as far as I am concern, don't even consider it.

[Axxle]

Show me one place I should have claimed and I'll tell you why I didn't. Just because you think a play is wrong doesn't make it so.

[shraeye]

My preference is PPS > Axxle > shraeye ................................. > Scotty

Mail-mi is confirmed town as far as I am concern, don't even consider it.

Scotty is really far from me wanted to lynch too.  I think PPS is townier, but neither is obv-conf-OMG town like you and mail-mi.  I have exactly 1 scum read right now.

[pingpongsam]

I have exactly 1 scum read right now.

Yeah, Axxle is the only person I can actually say I have a scum read on. Everyone else I must speculate and stretch on. That said, I had a massive scum read on mcmcsalot, so...

[Axxle]

I'm becoming partial to a shraeye lynch just so I don't get mislynched tomorrow.

[Axxle]

I'm debating how much my own lynch would help, actually. Let me think about that for a bit.

[shraeye]

A lot.  For one, the game would be over.  Let's do it.

[pingpongsam]

A lot.  For one, the game would be over.  Let's do it.

Certainty is blinding. I don't even find it necessarily scummy.
Robz was certain on mcmc and he wasn't scum.
I was damned certain about ADK and then he turned out to be one of our best PRs ripe for NK because he was forced to claim; and I'm not scum.

Hell, now that I type this out I'm starting to think that it's the less certain players who may be more likely to be scum... I think I just WIFOM'd myself.

[Robz888]

I need to re-read shraeye. If I'm satisfied he's town, I want to lynch PPS, with the understanding that Axxle will be tomorrow's lynch.

[shraeye]

I'm debating how much my own lynch would help, actually. Let me think about that for a bit.

So who do you think should be lynched?

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.4:

Axxle (1) : shraeye
PPS (1): Axxle

Not Voting (4):  scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mail-mi, PPS

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on March 25 at 8:00 a.m.

[Axxle]

I'm debating how much my own lynch would help, actually. Let me think about that for a bit.

So who do you think should be lynched?

Vote Count 4.4:

Axxle (1) : shraeye
PPS (1): Axxle

Not Voting (4):  scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mail-mi, PPS

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on March 25 at 8:00 a.m.

[Axxle]

I'm debating how much my own lynch would help, actually. Let me think about that for a bit.

So who do you think should be lynched?

If you mean whether I should lynch myself or not the jury's still out.  I'll consult with Axxle2 later tonight.

[shraeye]

This is nonsense; who is scummy in your eyes?  simple question.

[Axxle]

PPS and scott.

I've had bad feelings about you all game but I attribute that to you tunneling me.

[shraeye]

ok.  So you're saying that outside of you, and obv-ICs Robz/Mail-mi, everybody looks scummy.  And you're even CONSIDERING the option that lynching yourself would work from a Axxle-is-town perspective?  That's double-nonsense.

Pure facade.

[Axxle]

ok.  So you're saying that outside of you, and obv-ICs Robz/Mail-mi, everybody looks scummy.  And you're even CONSIDERING the option that lynching yourself would work from a Axxle-is-town perspective?  That's double-nonsense.

Pure facade.

If I 100% am getting mislynched tomorrow, being mislynched today instead might be a valid option.

[mail-mi]

Note, I RB shraeye N1 and the kill still went through, so he should be less suspicious.

My list before reread: PPS>Scotty>Axxle>Shraeye>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mail-mi/robz

[Robz888]

Note, I RB shraeye N1 and the kill still went through, so he should be less suspicious.

My list before reread: PPS>Scotty>Axxle>Shraeye>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>mail-mi/robz

That is true. Makes me feel better about the lynch PPS and then Axxle plan

[scott_pilgrim]

I just finished rereading D1 and these two posts stuck out to me:

What's the argument on scott again? Because I don't want to lynch raerae just for being raerae.

No... unvote.

I don't like being behind shraeye... Are we sure we don't want to lynch him?

back to vote: scott unless we can lynch shraeye, I am more sure about him than I am about raerae

And here it is.  He claimed to want to vote for raerae and still has raerae as a scum read, but chooses not to put her to L-1.  you know that if you voted for her, somebody would hammer that.  You're the deciding vote, and you're deciding not to lynch her...DESPITE your read on her.  That's shenanigans.  Raerae being sassy is not indicative of her being town, It's indicative of her being raerae.  And you should know that.  You're just grabbing at flimsy reasons not to Lynch your partner.  I'm calling it here and now.

Raerae and yuma are partners, 200%.

I'm pretty sure yuma townslipped earlier though...

Someone hammer, please.

Has she claimed?

No, but raerae doesn't claim.

I'm going to give her the benefit of the doubt.

As for the slip:

Oh, you're right.  I should probably just hope on whatever bandwagon forms next and plunk my vote there. 

Yep that is exactly what I said...

Now that we have gotten our passive aggressive sarcasm out of the way.... Seriously though. Look at it this way. There are 3 mafia to 10 town. It takes 7 to lynch. If you are town and if you are just keeping your vote on Andrew then town has one less vote to utilize in finding scum. I know you think that Andrew is scum. He might be, he might not be. But the fact of the matter is that he isn't getting lynched today... So your vote is in effect "not voting" for purposes of finding a lynch. This is all stuff you already know, so I dont' even know why I am saying it.... but I will say it anyways... And no I am not saying just plunk your vote down onto a wagon. But analyze the wagons see who you find the most likely to be scum and usefully and effectively place your vote on someone. I am pretty sure you already knew that I was effectively saying this above, but here it is again spelled out for you.

"3 mafia to 10 town" - I doubt scum would make this mistake.
This whole post feels pretty town to me, treating raerae as town even if she's a scum read. I don't think scum would do that with their partner. From his posts since 324 I see a natural strong scumread progress to a weak enough read to want to pursue others. His lack of tunneling is pretty town.

Now that we know yuma was scum his townslip is interesting.  Either he really did forget the set-up, or he faked it for towncred.  Axxle pointing it out isn't necessarily scummy, but if he is scum he certainly wouldn't want to let that one get away (regardless of whether it was intentional or not).  So it's something to consider.

Right now I'm at:

Axxle>PPS>>>Shraeye>>>>>>>>>>>>mail-mi>>Robz>me

I think as long as we lynch both Axxle and PPS we will win.

[pingpongsam]

Well, here we are back to that Axxle or PPS dichotomy that leaves me with no other thing to do than Vote: Axxle.

Flip me if you want, I don't see that there is anything left to this game if it just flip one guy then the other. If Axxle is also town then kudos to the remaining scum and if it's Robz then shame on everybody except Robz.

[Axxle]

Well, here we are back to that Axxle or PPS dichotomy that leaves me with no other thing to do than Vote: Axxle.

Flip me if you want, I don't see that there is anything left to this game if it just flip one guy then the other. If Axxle is also town then kudos to the remaining scum and if it's Robz then shame on everybody except Robz.

Can you stop it with the Robz.  He was roleblocked last night.

[pingpongsam]

Unless the RB was RB'd...

[Axxle]

I see it all now. Shraeye being hypersensitive to his partners scum tells decides that he has to bus them or be super obvious about it. Then he tunnels on the most mislynched player in all of f.ds (not an exaggeration), sets up a doc claim, no kills tonight, and coasts to victory. Lynch me today if you want but lynch shraeye, not pps. He's town.

vote:shraeye

[Axxle]

I was planning on going to lylo with Scott and voting the other guy but now I don't need to.

[Robz888]

I have started re-reading AGAIN, please don't do anything rash.

I hate the feeling that the speccies are just watching me obliterate what seemed like a guaranteed win two short days ago.

[Axxle]

Thanks robz, appreciate it. I know I don't put that much effort into the game.

Ib4: look how buddy buddy axxles being!

[pingpongsam]

Unvote

[shraeye]

I see it all now. Shraeye being hypersensitive to his partners scum tells decides that he has to bus them or be super obvious about it. Then he tunnels on the most mislynched player in all of f.ds (not an exaggeration), sets up a doc claim, no kills tonight, and coasts to victory. Lynch me today if you want but lynch shraeye, not pps. He's town.

vote:shraeye

Ok, so we lynch you, and if there are no kills tonight, everybody is allowed to be ultra suspicious of me.  In this case, there would still be able to lynch you, me, AND PPS.  So everybody is happy.  Everybody except you, yuma, and raerae.

[shraeye]

I invite everybody to read Axxle's interactions with the raerae on day1.  There's nothing.  He threatens the fake-hammer for 'reactions', he doubts her claim that Andrew is being coached, says he doesn't want to lynch raerae for being raerae and in the very same post tells me that yuma town-slipped, and then his very next post is his formulaic intent to hammer.

And speaking about that town-slip that Axxle claims yuma made.  So Yuma is the person who Axxle is convinced is town is SOMEHOW still the very same person that Axxle chooses to use his 1-shot cop on to investigate that night, gets town result for, and STILL votes for yuma the next day with talk about "wifoming himself".  That just sounds exactly like a "oh shit, shraeye zinged yuma for half-heartedly bussing raerae day1; I had better vote for yuma if it ever comes up"

It is suspicious as all getup.

[shraeye]

Also, a return to Axxle's "wifom" on yuma.

Axxle, if you shot your power on yuma N1 why are you just now bringing it up? It seemed appropriate at several instances to have already brought up. Namely, D2 despite the Godfather thing. D3 seemed appropriate as well when we were discovering the setup and when I and others posted reads on you indicating scum behavior surrounding yuma.

Indeed, very fishy.  Especially with these 2 early day2 posts by Axxle.

Yuma's got some pretty weak reasons for not being on raerae, but I feel like he'd try a bit harder to find better ones if he was scum.

To those that are surprised by Andrew's death: why?

Yuma's got some pretty weak reasons for not being on raerae, but I feel like he'd try a bit harder to find better ones if he was scum.

Eh. i should stop Wifoming myself.

Vote: Yuma

I forgot I made that second one. 'Wifoming' is the wrong word but I was hinting that I got a town result.

PEdit: But you're not me though.

PEdit2: Because it's useless info? I guess percentage wise he becomes less likely to be scum but it's not impossible.

If I was scum I would've fakeclaimed right away. There'd be no consequence.

How in the flippin' way does anybody use the phrase "I should stop wifoming myself" to hint that there was a town result on Yuma?  Real cops make hints like eevee did for Robz, so that if the cop dies, then the result is manifestly clear.  Not some
"ooooh, yuma's got weak reasoning, but maybe scum-yuma would have more solid arguments...I don't knoooow...wifoooom...." 
followed by
"oh, I meant that I had a town result on yuma, that's why I said 'wifom'"

[pingpongsam]

Ok, so we lynch you, and if there are no kills tonight, everybody is allowed to be ultra suspicious of me.  In this case, there would still be able to lynch you, me, AND PPS.  So everybody is happy.  Everybody except you, yuma, and raerae.

Good point. I know Axxle reads scummy, I don't need to re-read him. I feel shraeye is worth re-reading again before I resume voting Axxle.

[pingpongsam]

So I re-read shraeye and the only manifestly scumym thing about his play is how eerily on-point it is. Basically, in order to be playing so on-point he has foreknowledge of who is and is not scum. That said, when I've played this way I have leveraged the fact that my play was on point to convince people to vote my direction. IMO, shraeye's D3-D4 play is quite towny in that he remains within the meta of pressing for the vote he believes in and not being manipulative about getting others to follow it, just outspoken.

I think Axxle made a fine point about shraeye's possible fake-claim to be a doctor since a forfeited nightkill would garner town status. However, since we can either direct the doctor to a person or to not fire at all or maybe get him to tell us whether he still has a shot in twilight, well, I think we can disarm that particular threat.

Axxle's claim is especially scummy as is his D1-D3 play. Some of his behavior D4 appears towny I must say, though.

[Robz888]

I am about half way through my re-read. The sad reality is that any of you--other than mail-mi--could be scum.

In an odd sort of way, I am thankful that mail-mi RBed shraeye on Night 1, even though that was not a very good choice I think. It has to be extremely acquiting--there is no way yuma does the kill instead of his partner, and I think the odds of mail-mi being roleblocked by scum on Night 1 are very low.

Just a clarification: Ashersky: A scum Roleblocker can roleblock AND shoot, even if he is not the only living member of his team, right? In some setups, the scum Roleblocker is only allowed to do both if all his partners are dead.

[Robz888]

The point people are making that shraeye's reads actually too good that they smack of scum knowledge is totally a fair point. And if not for mail-mi's RBing, it might indeed tip me in that direction.

But, since we have mail-mi RBing him, I have to think he's town.

[ashersky]

A mafia roleblocker may perform the factional kill and a roleblock on the same night, any night.

[Axxle]

In an odd sort of way, I am thankful that mail-mi RBed shraeye on Night 1, even though that was not a very good choice I think. It has to be extremely acquiting--there is no way yuma does the kill instead of his partner, and I think the odds of mail-mi being roleblocked by scum on Night 1 are very low.

unvote

[Robz888]

Which brings me to Scott, Axxle, and PPS.

Scott, unfortunately, is going to win if he's scum. Which is terrible. In a lot of ways, he's classically scummy. He's opportunistic. He lurks. His reaction to "random" vote on him Day 1 was TERRIBLE (He OMGUSed me, like newbie scum, sad). But I STILL don't think he's scum. I am going to continue re-reading, so we will see if that changes.

Axxle has done some scummy things, and has generally bee kind of zany. All of shraeye's points on him ring true, especially if I am trusting shraeye.

PPS though... PPS, if you are town, you assisted me in screwing us up BIG TIME. You should have gone to your grave yesterday without another peep. You convinced me--oh, my shame--to refocus on ADK. If we had not done that, ADK would likely have survived the night with a useful result. And we would be winning now. Contrast your behavior with mcmc's. He didn't bother defending himself! He went down, knowing it was for the best. You convinced me to spare you and decreased our win chances significantly, do you realize that?

I'm not trying to like blame you (if you are town), because it was my blunder, too. I'm trying to say that it was a scum tactic.

[Robz888]

I'm going to continue re-reading now. I have to remember that this just a game. I am feeling so terrible. Eevee, ADK, I'm sorry! I hope I don't let us down with my eventual choice! And I know I really blew it with the claiming. I thought that at worst mass claiming would help me understand the setup, I should have realized that was a terrible strategy here. I'm sorry!

[Axxle]

In an odd sort of way, I am thankful that mail-mi RBed shraeye on Night 1, even though that was not a very good choice I think. It has to be extremely acquiting--there is no way yuma does the kill instead of his partner, and I think the odds of mail-mi being roleblocked by scum on Night 1 are very low.

unvote

Wait, I guess there's a chance mailmi was roleblocked?

[Robz888]

In an odd sort of way, I am thankful that mail-mi RBed shraeye on Night 1, even though that was not a very good choice I think. It has to be extremely acquiting--there is no way yuma does the kill instead of his partner, and I think the odds of mail-mi being roleblocked by scum on Night 1 are very low.

unvote

Wait, I guess there's a chance mailmi was roleblocked?

But it's such a small chance. Why would they RB mail-mi? Even with hindsight, this seems like a bad idea. No offense mail-mi, but he's not super fearsome, I mean, he even forgot to submit actions one night. On the other two nights, he made a bad choice (although it might end up being really good), and an unbelievably bad choice.

Wouldn't they be roleblocking like Eevee, or me, or something? Of course, we know they didn't block Eevee on Night 1 (since he breadcrumbed investigation of me).

[Axxle]

In an odd sort of way, I am thankful that mail-mi RBed shraeye on Night 1, even though that was not a very good choice I think. It has to be extremely acquiting--there is no way yuma does the kill instead of his partner, and I think the odds of mail-mi being roleblocked by scum on Night 1 are very low.

unvote

Wait, I guess there's a chance mailmi was roleblocked?

But it's such a small chance. Why would they RB mail-mi? Even with hindsight, this seems like a bad idea. No offense mail-mi, but he's not super fearsome, I mean, he even forgot to submit actions one night. On the other two nights, he made a bad choice (although it might end up being really good), and an unbelievably bad choice.

Wouldn't they be roleblocking like Eevee, or me, or something? Of course, we know they didn't block Eevee on Night 1 (since he breadcrumbed investigation of me).

I just reread and I agree there wasn't much reason. Mailmi didn't really hint at having a PR at all, and didn't even really express too much suspicion on shraeye to indicate that he might roleblock him.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.5:

Axxle (1) : shraeye

Not Voting (5):  scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mail-mi, PPS, Axxle

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on March 25 at 8:00 a.m.

[pingpongsam]

PPS though... PPS, if you are town, you assisted me in screwing us up BIG TIME. You should have gone to your grave yesterday without another peep. You convinced me--oh, my shame--to refocus on ADK. If we had not done that, ADK would likely have survived the night with a useful result. And we would be winning now. Contrast your behavior with mcmc's. He didn't bother defending himself! He went down, knowing it was for the best. You convinced me to spare you and decreased our win chances significantly, do you realize that?

I'm not trying to like blame you (if you are town), because it was my blunder, too. I'm trying to say that it was a scum tactic.

Well, I agree that we got screwed by having our backup cop be forced to claim. But the fact is ADK played quite terribly and appeared to be scumball number 1. So, in that sense ADK screwed us. I contend that mcmc should have fought back and he definitely should have at least made an effort to look outside a PPS lynch and I believe that his final play was equally crappy and so in that sense, mcmc screwed us. Do not forget you were the one certain that mcmc was the final scum. I was just as certain on ADK before he claimed. I am certainty shy at this point. If mcmc had stepped up and fought back we would have maybe lynched me or maybe we would have not lynched me, ADK, or him and thus possibly won the game but certainly be in a different place today. While it was originally spoken with regards to scum, it is equally true for town; you get lynched because you let Town lynch you. Note, ADK didn't get lynched. I have yet to get lynched. Going quietly to your grave as Town is terrible play and I won't be shamed for not doing it. Staying alive is not a tactic reserved solely for scum.

[Robz888]

Okay, I didn't end up re-reading Day 3, but I DID re-read Day 2 for the first time, and man... it's PPS! I forgot how and why I was so certain it was PPS until I re-read, but it just has to be.

At the time, we were all saying it was yuma and PPS and they were done done done for, and that was the source of yuma's frustration. And they had no idea how to react to each toher at that point. It's extremely awkward. Eventually yuma starts lashing out at PPS in this totally non genuine way, and PPS tries to hammer yuma and somehow proclaim that he isn't mafia and he doesn't know what yuma will flip. Also... he doesn't let yuma claim! I think that may have been a scumslip. Wouldn't you let the guy claim, if you had actual reservations that he was scum, as PPS pretended to?

Lots of the dead people really thought it was him at that point too, including mcmcsalot and Eevee.

So we should lynch PPS, which is something we should have done yesterday.

In the event that PPS is town... Mail-mi, listen to shraeye, and lynch Axxle with him. We have to basically just trust your Night 1 RB, I think. It'll be kind of hilarious how badly your power screwed us over if shraeye is scum, but oh well.

Vote: Pingpongsam

[mail-mi]

I need to reread...but I have a history test tomorrow. I"ll reread tomorrow and see if I want to lych PPs with you,

[Robz888]

Oh, and mail-mi, Good Lord, do NOT block shraeye tonight. If shraeye is scum, he is blocking you anyway and your blocking does no good. If he's town, and he still has his Doc shot left, the scum can't stop you AND shraeye. So block Axxle or scotty. I suggest Axxle, unless shraeye can come up with some reason to block Scotty.

[Robz888]

I need to reread...but I have a history test tomorrow. I"ll reread tomorrow and see if I want to lych PPs with you,

If you are pressed for time, I really recommend just re-reading Day 2. It's short, and things are very clear. Pay attention to the frustration that yuma and PPS are feeling, knowing they are tagged together (sort of randomly, but I think in hindsight obviously accurately).

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.6:

Axxle (1): shraeye
PPS (1): Robz888

Not Voting (4): scott_pilgrim, mail-mi, PPS, Axxle

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on March 25 at 8:00 a.m.

[Axxle]

Vote: PPS

Okay, I didn't end up re-reading Day 3, but I DID re-read Day 2 for the first time, and man... it's PPS! I forgot how and why I was so certain it was PPS until I re-read, but it just has to be.

At the time, we were all saying it was yuma and PPS and they were done done done for, and that was the source of yuma's frustration. And they had no idea how to react to each toher at that point. It's extremely awkward. Eventually yuma starts lashing out at PPS in this totally non genuine way, and PPS tries to hammer yuma and somehow proclaim that he isn't mafia and he doesn't know what yuma will flip. Also... he doesn't let yuma claim! I think that may have been a scumslip. Wouldn't you let the guy claim, if you had actual reservations that he was scum, as PPS pretended to?

Lots of the dead people really thought it was him at that point too, including mcmcsalot and Eevee.

So we should lynch PPS, which is something we should have done yesterday.

In the event that PPS is town... Mail-mi, listen to shraeyeAxxle, and lynch Axxle scott with him. We have to basically just trust your Night 1 RB, I think. It'll be kind of hilarious how badly your power screwed us over if shraeye is scum, but oh well.

Vote: Pingpongsam

FTFY

[shraeye]

Arrrg, Robz.  Can't we let it be Axxle first?

[shraeye]

what sticks out about PPS's Day2 play? I'm reading it now, and I haven't found your smoking gun yet. 

On the other hand, none of Axxle's claimed night-actions support any of his play, his day1 treatment of raerae was absolutely non-committal until he hammered, he had expressed absolutely no suspicion of raerae up until that point.  His day2 treatment of yuma was ultra suspicious.  So there are obvious reasons to tie him to BOTH of the flipped scum.

[pingpongsam]

Well, I was thinking it over in the shower this morning and it boils down to either scotty or Axxle for me. I'm not lynching Robz, mail-mi or shraeye today. I agree with Robz' assessment that scotty could be classic newbie scum coasting to victory. If Axxle flips town then I would have to strongly consider scotty. But as it stands I have to

Vote: Axxle

I don't see my vote changing anymore today. I can only say we are making a grievous error to flip me today and there are good voices of reason saying we shouldn't. If Axxle is the next obvious flip after me then please flip Axxle today.

[pingpongsam]

Scott, mail-mi, PPS and shraeye are sufficient to lynch Axxle so we do not necessarily have to sway Robz.

[shraeye]

Robz, just put your faith in me.  If I'm wrong on Axxle, then I'll reassess this game in a major way.  We've both had 'aha' moments in this game, and all mine have been hitting true.  The same thing happened in the blitz game that just finished.  My reads have been ON, and I can't back down from this.  You can sell me on your take on the PPS/scott riddle tomorrow if there even is a tomorrow.  I'm reading them both as town right now, and I just don't see myself voting for them today.

[Robz888]

Robz, just put your faith in me.  If I'm wrong on Axxle, then I'll reassess this game in a major way.  We've both had 'aha' moments in this game, and all mine have been hitting true.  The same thing happened in the blitz game that just finished.  My reads have been ON, and I can't back down from this.  You can sell me on your take on the PPS/scott riddle tomorrow if there even is a tomorrow.  I'm reading them both as town right now, and I just don't see myself voting for them today.

I may not be around to sell you on my take tomorrow!

Look, why can't we just do it your way tomorrow? I promise I will lynch Axxle tomorrow if I am still alive.

There is time to do them both... but if we do it your way first, there is less guarantee that we will do it my way afterward.

[Axxle]

vote: pps

Pps then Scott and we got this.

[scott_pilgrim]

I just reread most of D2, I agree PPS looks scummy there, especially in his interactions with yuma.

vote: pingpongsam

That puts him at L-1.

[pingpongsam]

I just reread most of D2, I agree PPS looks scummy there, especially in his interactions with yuma.

Just to be clear, you think it was scummy to antagonize my partner to the point of blatant frustration and then to make sure he died on D2 right after my other partner died D1?

[Axxle]

Vote: Scott
SCOOOOOOOOOTTTTT!!!!

WHY ARE YOU SO SCUMMY?

[scott_pilgrim]

I just reread most of D2, I agree PPS looks scummy there, especially in his interactions with yuma.

Just to be clear, you think it was scummy to antagonize my partner to the point of blatant frustration and then to make sure he died on D2 right after my other partner died D1?

It seemed forced to me, you got into that argument with him where you weren't making any sense, and it looks set up.  And I guess you made it 100% sure that he died but ADK had already stated intent to hammer, so there was already like a 97% chance he was going to die, I think at that point if you're scum you're just trying to cut your losses and get towncred for the hammer.  So I think your hammer of yuma is null at best.

I'm not as certain about it as Robz seems to be, but I am pretty sure that it's either you or Axxle, and I'm willing to trust Robz, because if he's scum we lose anyway.

[scott_pilgrim]

Vote: Scott
SCOOOOOOOOOTTTTT!!!!

WHY ARE YOU SO SCUMMY?

??

[pingpongsam]

I'm not as certain about it as Robz seems to be, but I am pretty sure that it's either you or Axxle, and I'm willing to trust Robz, because if he's scum we lose anyway.

You call it trust, I call it sheeping.

No doubt, Robz is town but we don't need him to lynch Axxle. Vote Axxle FTW.

[Axxle]

I'm feeling a lot better about you than PPS being scum.  If I get lynched today I'd rather you get lynched than PPS.

[scott_pilgrim]

If it's because I voted right after you, that wasn't intentional, that was just when I finished reading D2.  Putting someone at L-1 quickly wouldn't help me if I'm scum anyway, unless town quickhammers for some reason?

[scott_pilgrim]

I'm not as certain about it as Robz seems to be, but I am pretty sure that it's either you or Axxle, and I'm willing to trust Robz, because if he's scum we lose anyway.

You call it trust, I call it sheeping.

No doubt, Robz is town but we don't need him to lynch Axxle. Vote Axxle FTW.

He's clearly a much more experienced player than me, he knows you better than me, I agree with his points, and he seems really confident in your lynch.  If he's wrong we'll lynch Axxle tomorrow.  For me it's just a matter of which order to vote you two in, unless someone somehow convinces me of shraeye.

[Axxle]

If it's because I voted right after you, that wasn't intentional, that was just when I finished reading D2.  Putting someone at L-1 quickly wouldn't help me if I'm scum anyway, unless town quickhammers for some reason?

No, it's mostly PoE.

[Robz888]

Does Scotty make me reconsider my town read on him every time he opens his mouth? Yes.

I will say it was like this in Diffusion of Power, too. Plenty of people thought he was scummy. He is quiet and follower=y by nature.

The fact remains that yuma tried to save rarae on Day 1, and he tried to save her by switching the lynch to Scotty.

[Robz888]

Now can we please lynch PPS? Again, if I'm wrong, we'll do it shraeye's way. Promise.

[scott_pilgrim]

If it's because I voted right after you, that wasn't intentional, that was just when I finished reading D2.  Putting someone at L-1 quickly wouldn't help me if I'm scum anyway, unless town quickhammers for some reason?

No, it's mostly PoE.

Hmmm...if we do PPS first and he flips town, then whatever two townies are left will decide which of us they think is scum and that will decide the game?  Whereas if you lynch me today, they will have to decide between you and PPS.  And if we lynch you today, they'll have to decide between me and PPS.  Obviously the second case is super scary because that means we go from like >80% chance of winning to less than 50% (not really sure how much % the possibility of shraeye/mail-mi/Robz being scum takes up).  I mean I guess that analysis doesn't help anything, of course the three of us all want to lynch the other two, and then it's up to the other three to pick which two to lynch, except we lose one of them (probably Robz) along the way.  I would say pay attention to Robz's reads but of course I would say that anyway because he thinks I'm town.  I mean I guess I would feel a lot better if we just lynched PPS now, then if he flips town we can continue this panic but if he doesn't we'll all be happy.

[Robz888]

Fact: There is zero point to giving any further consideration to the following three scenarios: Robz is scum, Shraeye is scum, Mail-mi is scum.

That does not mean these scenarios are impossible! (Although the one where I am scum is getting pretty close to impossible from all of your perspectives, and is of course impossible from mine). It just means that they are vastly, vastly, vastly less likely than anything else. We have to rule some things out since we only have two chances left. So we rule out all that vastly unlike things. This is absolutely fine my case, very close to a sure thing for the mail-mi case, and slightly worrisome but you can do in the shraeye case.

Which just means we are lynching 2 of the 3 of PPS, Axxle, and Scotty. It has to be PPS firs,t because I say so.

[pingpongsam]

Just looking at where it goes out loud:

Lynch PPS
Most Likely NKs are Robz, mail-mi or shraeye since the wifom is strong between Axxle and Scott
Let's say mail-mi gets NK'd
D5 must lynch Axxle or Scott, let's call one of them A and the other B and we lynch A
Let's say Robz gets NKd
Game over

Lynch Scott
Most Likely NKs are Robz, mail-mi or  or shraeye since the wifom is strong between Axxle and PPS
Let's say mail-mi gets NK'd
D5 must lynch Axxle or PPS, let's call one of them A and the other B and we lynch A
Let's say Robz gets NKd
Game over

Lynch Axxle
Most Likely NKs are Robz, mail-mi or  or shraeye as the wifom has now become strong between scotty and PPS
Let's say mail-mi gets NK'd
D5 must lynch scotty or PPS, let's call one of them A and the other B and we lynch A
Let's say Robz gets NKd
Game over

So, ultimately we have a 1 in 3 chance of getting it right and a 2 in 3 chance of straight up losing the game because the path is concrete going out of today. All this barring a not completely unlikely lucky doctoring/roleblocking combo assuming those claims are true.

Does everyone feel strongly enough about their votes that it is the game winning vote? I think it is the last vote that matters die to the above analysis.

[pingpongsam]

It has to be PPS firs,t because I say so.

Patently false, your vote is not needed to vote any other member to the gallows.

[shraeye]

I'd really like to know mail-mi's opinion.  If we do PPS, and then somehow you all decide to lynch scotty tomorrow instead of very-scum Axxle, I will have to set my hair on fire.  And I like my hair.

[Robz888]

I'd really like to know mail-mi's opinion.  If we do PPS, and then somehow you all decide to lynch scotty tomorrow instead of very-scum Axxle, I will have to set my hair on fire.  And I like my hair.

Shraeye, this is exactly how I feel! No, that's not going to happen I PROMISE I'll make it Axxle if I am alive, and you have my BEYOND THE GRAVE vote of confidence if I am dead. I think mail-mi is on board for this plan--would love to get his explicit agreement, anyway--and then we go.

[pingpongsam]

mail-mi has made it clear that he sees me as town far over Axxle.

PPS, shraeye, mail-mi and sounds like scotty is willing to vote Axxle tomorrow so why not today?

[Robz888]

mail-mi has made it clear that he sees me as town far over Axxle.

PPS, shraeye, mail-mi and sounds like scotty is willing to vote Axxle tomorrow so why not today?

Why not tomorrow?

[pingpongsam]

mail-mi has made it clear that he sees me as town far over Axxle.

PPS, shraeye, mail-mi and sounds like scotty is willing to vote Axxle tomorrow so why not today?

Why not tomorrow?

Because I want to win today.

[Axxle]

mail-mi has made it clear that he sees me as town far over Axxle.

PPS, shraeye, mail-mi and sounds like scotty is willing to vote Axxle tomorrow so why not today?

Why not tomorrow?

Because I want to win today.

Robz, how can you not see PPS as town. TOWWWWWWNNNNNNNN.

[pingpongsam]

Okay, let's take a meta-vote. If we do not lynch me today who is going to auto-vote me tomorrow if we mislynch today?

[pingpongsam]

The purpose is to say that if we are just going to have to vote me tomorrow which will lose the game then maybe I should just get hung right now to give us a winning chance tomorrow.

[pingpongsam]

You know, with me thinking like that and seeing Axxle having thought like that I am willing to

Vote: Scotty

Axxle, why do you suddenly see me as so towny? I can read you as scummy all the way up to the tail end of today. I can identify with the just lynch me today so we can maybe win tomorrow attitude is the only reason I think you may actually be town.

[Robz888]

You know, with me thinking like that and seeing Axxle having thought like that I am willing to

Vote: Scotty

Axxle, why do you suddenly see me as so towny? I can read you as scummy all the way up to the tail end of today. I can identify with the just lynch me today so we can maybe win tomorrow attitude is the only reason I think you may actually be town.

Sure, justify your latest strategy to avoid dying whatever way you want.

[Robz888]

Again, note how PPS recognizes that the best thing he can do for the town is die, and then does not do that.

[pingpongsam]

Right, just like Axxle did, hmm, we must both be scum.

[Axxle]

You know, with me thinking like that and seeing Axxle having thought like that I am willing to

Vote: Scotty

Axxle, why do you suddenly see me as so towny? I can read you as scummy all the way up to the tail end of today. I can identify with the just lynch me today so we can maybe win tomorrow attitude is the only reason I think you may actually be town.

Because your thought process regarding how we should do the end game is exactly the same as mine.

[Robz888]

Right, just like Axxle did, hmm, we must both be scum.

Well, one of you is!

[pingpongsam]

No to convince sheepy-pilgrim or Robz to vote scotty, though.

shraeye wants Axxle's blood and I understand that. But failing that I see him swinging any other direction just so long as Axxle dies next.

We definitely need a weigh-in from mail-mi to see where this game is going.

I think scotty may actually be our final scum. Robz acknowledged this himself earlier today.

[pingpongsam]

Right, just like Axxle did, hmm, we must both be scum.

Well, one of you is!

So you admit your logic is faulty 50% of the time.

[Robz888]

PPS, your anybody-but-me attitude has been anti-town from the get-go, and has put us in this situation. Assuming you are scum, I applaud you for it, it was just what you needed to do.

Axxle (or PPS, if PPS is town) you are being tricked by the other.

[pingpongsam]

To be clear, I'm not voting scotty to save my ass, I'm voting scotty because I think it is the only winning option. If I thought sepukku would deliver a win tomorrow I would do it today.

[Robz888]

To be clear, I'm not voting scotty to save my ass, I'm voting scotty because I think it is the only winning option. If I thought sepukku would deliver a win tomorrow I would do it today.

Then do it. Commit seppuku.

[shraeye]

Here is Axxle since the claims:

I ask who he thinks should be lynched.
3/19 6:01pm  He quotes his vote on PPS.
3/19 7:03pm Has bad feelings about scott/PPS
3/20 1:13am He now says that I'm scum.  Says PPS is town. Very unclear what prompted this switch on PPS.
3/20 1:14am Says he was planning on going to lylo with scotty and voting the other person but now doesn't have to....I take this to mean that he had a 'townread' on scotty but now knows that I'm scum.
3/20 7:00pm.  Unvotes shraeye in reaction to Robz's take on mail-mi RBing me N1.  Axxle already had access to that info, but apparently Robz agreeing with this changes Axxle's post night-action-reveal opinion of me.
3/20 7:04m hold up on that unvote; axxle says maybe mail-mi has been RB'ed.
3/20 7:10pm agrees that that is unlikely
3/21 12:28am votes PPS (who he says is town) on the condition that scotty get lynched tomorrow; presumably Axxle thinks now that scott is last scum and lynching him will win.  So this is an "I'll be alive for one more day, and can figure it out then" vote.  If he really were town, thinking that scott was the last scum, he would be working super-hard to change our minds BEFORE voting PPS.
3/21 1:30pm  Backs up his first PPS, then scott position... Axxle should be absolutely trying to sell us on scotty now, before lynching PPS.  But that's not today's main focus for him, which is to simply avoid being lynched however necessary.



He's all over the board; to use a phrase Robz coined, he is flailing scum here, trying ANYTHING to get the lynches off of him one day at a time.  His reads are changing, not in reaction to new information, but in reaction to what Robz says he thinks about stuff.  There is no way these are real reads.

[shraeye]

You know, with me thinking like that and seeing Axxle having thought like that I am willing to

Vote: Scotty

Axxle, why do you suddenly see me as so towny? I can read you as scummy all the way up to the tail end of today. I can identify with the just lynch me today so we can maybe win tomorrow attitude is the only reason I think you may actually be town.

Absolutely not.  It's not scotty.

[Robz888]

He's all over the board; to use a phrase Robz coined, he is flailing scum here, trying ANYTHING to get the lynches off of him one day at a time.  His reads are changing, not in reaction to new information, but in reaction to what Robz says he thinks about stuff.  There is no way these are real reads.

PPS is doing the same thing!

[pingpongsam]

To be clear, I'm not voting scotty to save my ass, I'm voting scotty because I think it is the only winning option. If I thought sepukku would deliver a win tomorrow I would do it today.

Then do it. Commit seppuku.

It is not the winning option.

[shraeye]

Axxle (or PPS, if PPS is town) you are being tricked by the other.

Robz is right, that one of you is super-fooling the other.

[pingpongsam]

Is it agreed that Axxle dies tomorrow?

If so, let's kill scotty today.

This guarantees a win.

[pingpongsam]

Whereas if we kill Axxle today I am certain we will kill me tomorrow and we then lose.

[pingpongsam]

We should save the Axxle vs PPS debate for tomorrow should scotty flip town which I am not so sure he will.

[Robz888]

Shraeye, I promise promise promise it will be Axxle tomorrow if it's PPS today. We just need mail-mi's consent, and we're good to go.

[Robz888]

We should save the Axxle vs PPS debate for tomorrow should scotty flip town which I am not so sure he will.

NOOOOOO!!!

[pingpongsam]

IOW, we have a 30% chance in the one condition and a 50% chance on the other. Why would you pick crappier odds?

I'm done here, not much else to say.

[Robz888]

Oh you scummy scum scum.

[shraeye]

NOOO.  scotty is NOT today's lynch; he is not scum.

[shraeye]

I'm heartened to see Robz is behind scotty being town too.  Scotty's scumminess has been manufactured by Axxle.  It is a fabrication.


mail-mi, I neeeed your thoughts.

[Robz888]

NOOO.  scotty is NOT today's lynch; he is not scum.

Shraeye, we just have to tune them out.

[pingpongsam]

Very well, Vote: PPS

The IC demanded it, no one will listen to better reasoning.

Thanks for the game.

[Axxle]

PPS, stop. If you do this we have zero chance of lynching scott and we lose.

[shraeye]

Thanks, Axxle.  But it's not scott.

[pingpongsam]

PPS, stop. If you do this we have zero chance of lynching scott and we lose.

Apparently only you and I see it this way. Apparently there is more room for debate between Axxle vs Scotty than there is for Axxle vs PPS tomorrow despite the firm resolve of 2 players to auto-lynch Axxle tomorrow. The false dichotomy of PPS/Axxle is apparently best resolved today when it will be a forgone conclusion who dies tomorrow than to litmus test the outlier and have a real debate tomorrow.

[shraeye]

PPS, stop buddying up with scum.  It's backwards and weird.

[Robz888]

Actually, a lot of good is coming of this, because I think the odds of shraeye being scum in spite of the RBing is dropping to zero.

[pingpongsam]

It is a forgone conclusion who dies tomorrow if we do not lynch scotty today. Personally, I prefer to keep my options open than to arbitrarily and unnecessarily close them. But then, I tend to prefer winning as well. With an illogical IC in the way there is no way to win. If the ability to win has been removed then there's not much point in playing.

[pingpongsam]

Actually, a lot of good is coming of this, because I think the odds of shraeye being scum in spite of the RBing is dropping to zero.

shraeye isn't scum, that concept didn't need strengthening.

[scott_pilgrim]

Very well, Vote: PPS

The IC demanded it, no one will listen to better reasoning.

Thanks for the game.

What is this "better reasoning"?  You've explained why you think we shouldn't lynch you, but that doesn't help us because we don't know your alignment.  Obviously if we knew you were town we wouldn't be voting for you, your "probability" thing assumes you're town.  (If it doesn't I totally don't know where you get that we have a higher chance of winning if we don't lynch you...)  If it's random among me, you, and Axxle which of us is scum, then town has a 2/3 chance of winning.  If you're Robz or shraeye or me and you're sure I'm town, then obviously we just lynch both you and Axxle and then it's a sure win.  By voting yourself you're saying you're so sure Axxle is town that you're willing to kill a guaranteed townie just to improve the chances of lynching me.

[Robz888]

It is a forgone conclusion who dies tomorrow if we do not lynch scotty today. Personally, I prefer to keep my options open than to arbitrarily and unnecessarily close them. But then, I tend to prefer winning as well. With an illogical IC in the way there is no way to win. If the ability to win has been removed then there's not much point in playing.

PPS, are you as certain about Scot as you were about mcmc? ADK? Axxle, the other five times you voted for him because you thought it was that or you?

[Robz888]

Actually, a lot of good is coming of this, because I think the odds of shraeye being scum in spite of the RBing is dropping to zero.

shraeye isn't scum, that concept didn't need strengthening.

It will let me sleep better at night, that's for sure.

[shraeye]

This explanation is clear, and is basically exactly what I was trying to piece together coherently.  Thanks scott.

[pingpongsam]

Very well, Vote: PPS

The IC demanded it, no one will listen to better reasoning.

Thanks for the game.

What is this "better reasoning"?  You've explained why you think we shouldn't lynch you, but that doesn't help us because we don't know your alignment.  Obviously if we knew you were town we wouldn't be voting for you, your "probability" thing assumes you're town.  (If it doesn't I totally don't know where you get that we have a higher chance of winning if we don't lynch you...)  If it's random among me, you, and Axxle which of us is scum, then town has a 2/3 chance of winning.  If you're Robz or shraeye or me and you're sure I'm town, then obviously we just lynch both you and Axxle and then it's a sure win.  By voting yourself you're saying you're so sure Axxle is town that you're willing to kill a guaranteed townie just to improve the chances of lynching me.

If we lynch either Axxle or PPS today we lynch the other tomorrow, that is forgone and therefore a closed option and it resolves to a 30% chance of success. If we lynch scotty today we then reserve the forgone decision for tomorrow where it can be debated, if it needs to be. That means, if we mislynched you we reserve a 50% chance of getting right tomorrow.

I cannot weight Axxle over scotty in terms of who I am more certain is scum, they are 50/50 in my mind. I can however, weight which one is best lynched today using the above logic.

You are perfectly correct that it is therefore totally illogical to vote myself but the IC you are sheeping demands it. I am voting myself for the same reasons you are voting me. So, you tell me what is wrong with that reason.

[Robz888]

PPS, it's a good performance, but it's over for you.

As long as mail-mi is good with the plan, yes?

[shraeye]

Axxle and scotty are truly 50/50 on who is scum???  I see no case on scotty that compares in any way to the case against Axxle.

[pingpongsam]

PPS, it's a good performance, but it's over for you.

As long as mail-mi is good with the plan, yes?

I don't see why you need mail-mi when you've got Axxle, it must be him or me and it isn't him so why wouldn't he vote me? It's not like you would listen to mail-mi if he disagreed anyhow. Why scotty isn't an option is completely lost on me and it will be why we lost this game. You will all say it is because PPS threw himself on the sword but it will be because no one would consider the third option and artificially forced the game to a premature end. If Axxle flips scum tomorrow I will be relieved but I will count ourselves stupidly lucky as opposed to intelligently crafty.

[pingpongsam]

Axxle and scotty are truly 50/50 on who is scum???  I see no case on scotty that compares in any way to the case against Axxle.

Oh, there's a far stronger case on Axxle, and you're going to get your Axxle lynch regardless so I don't know what the problem is. Logic supports lynching scotty first. Axxle's behavior at the end of today looks far more towny to me than scotty's. If you are certain that between Axxle/scotty it must be Axxle then by all means, eliminate me from the pool. I would trust shraeye's certainty miles over Robz'.

[Robz888]

We need mail-mi to consent that he understands everything, and who not to roleblock, and stuff.

[pingpongsam]

Why is Axxle not voting me? He's for sure dead tomorrow regardless.

I want everyone but Axxle to answer that question.

[shraeye]

you want answers from people other than axxle?  Or only from axxle?

[shraeye]

If axxle gleefully hammers you after declaring you town, and when it's clear that he's in people sights tomorrow, that's just nonsensical.

his only chance is to go full-bore into scotty, while letting your lynch happen "despite" him saying that you're town.  He's taking the only reasonable path for scum to take right now.

[pingpongsam]

If axxle gleefully hammers you after declaring you town, and when it's clear that he's in people sights tomorrow, that's just nonsensical.

his only chance is to go full-bore into scotty, while letting your lynch happen "despite" him saying that you're town.  He's taking the only reasonable path for scum to take right now.

Nah, Axxle had every reason to switch his vote to me when I self-voted. The scotty thing won't happen and he knows it. It would be best with such an open excuse to make sure PPS died before someone swiveled back to Axxle today. According to your logic, he's taking the only reasonable path regardless of his alignment since he knows his goose is cooked tomorrow and he will lose.

[Axxle]

PPS.

I want to post but I can't now that you've launched your little experiment.

[shraeye]

You can post.  Posting to say you can't post is useless

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.7:

Axxle (1): shraeye
PPS (3): Robz888, scott_pilgrim, PPS
scott_pilgrim (1): Axxle

Not Voting (1): mail-mi

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on March 25 at 8:00 a.m.

[shraeye]

Saying you have an answer and then waiting for 4 people to post possible answers so you cam pick the best sounding of them is not a strategy I will let you get away with.  If you have an answer to PPSs question, say it.

[Axxle]

Saying you have an answer and then waiting for 4 people to post possible answers so you cam pick the best sounding of them is not a strategy I will let you get away with.  If you have an answer to PPSs question, say it.

Why is Axxle not voting me? He's for sure dead tomorrow regardless.

I want everyone but Axxle to answer that question.

I'm an Axxle T-T

[Axxle]

Also, shraeye, there is literally NOTHING I can do to make you think I'm town. You're just going to spin it as scum since you're just that blind.

[scott_pilgrim]

Very well, Vote: PPS

The IC demanded it, no one will listen to better reasoning.

Thanks for the game.

What is this "better reasoning"?  You've explained why you think we shouldn't lynch you, but that doesn't help us because we don't know your alignment.  Obviously if we knew you were town we wouldn't be voting for you, your "probability" thing assumes you're town.  (If it doesn't I totally don't know where you get that we have a higher chance of winning if we don't lynch you...)  If it's random among me, you, and Axxle which of us is scum, then town has a 2/3 chance of winning.  If you're Robz or shraeye or me and you're sure I'm town, then obviously we just lynch both you and Axxle and then it's a sure win.  By voting yourself you're saying you're so sure Axxle is town that you're willing to kill a guaranteed townie just to improve the chances of lynching me.

If we lynch either Axxle or PPS today we lynch the other tomorrow, that is forgone and therefore a closed option and it resolves to a 30% chance of success. If we lynch scotty today we then reserve the forgone decision for tomorrow where it can be debated, if it needs to be. That means, if we mislynched you we reserve a 50% chance of getting right tomorrow.

I cannot weight Axxle over scotty in terms of who I am more certain is scum, they are 50/50 in my mind. I can however, weight which one is best lynched today using the above logic.

You are perfectly correct that it is therefore totally illogical to vote myself but the IC you are sheeping demands it. I am voting myself for the same reasons you are voting me. So, you tell me what is wrong with that reason.

What?  So you're argument is that, if we lynch you today, that means we auto-lynch Axxle tomorrow, which, assuming you're town, means we have a 50% chance of winning (if I'm the other 50%).  Whereas if we lynch Axxle today, and auto-lynch you tomorrow, so again, 50%.  Whereas if you lynch me today, and then decide randomly between you and Axxle tomorrow, you have a 75% chance of lynching scum.  Congratulations, you have shown us that if we knew you were town, we shouldn't lynch you.

Now let's work it out from the perspective of Robz, mail-mi, and shraeye, who have no idea whether you're town.

So there is one scum randomly among me, you, and Axxle.  If we lynch you today, and then auto-lynch Axxle tomorrow, that's a 2/3 chance of catching scum.  If we lynch Axxle today and auto-lynch you tomorrow, that's a 2/3 chance of catching scum.  If we lynch me today and then randomly among you and Axxle tomorrow, that's still a 2/3 chance of catching scum.  Even if the auto-lynch happens, it doesn't magically make the probability of catching scum any worse.

Now obviously, if you're pretty sure I'm town, you're just going to vote for you and Axxle, order doesn't matter.  Having discussion on D5/D6 might help town's chances a little (though it's possible town says something stupid like I've apparently been doing this game and gets himself lynched), but nobody's going to change their vote to account for that small chance that it helps.  That is, the difference in how sure people are that I'm town versus you or Axxle is much, much larger than the benefit we would get from extra discussion.  If people are sure I'm town, they're not going to vote for me, even though it might somehow make us discuss things more tomorrow.

Actually, think of it this way: the people who aren't voting for me today are the same people who you're concerned will auto-lynch Axxle/you tomorrow.  If they auto-lynch, it would be because they're so sure I'm town that they don't think any discussion will change that.  If they're that sure I'm town, there's no way you're going to convince them to vote for me today.

[pingpongsam]

Actually, think of it this way: the people who aren't voting for me today are the same people who you're concerned will auto-lynch Axxle/you tomorrow.  If they auto-lynch, it would be because they're so sure I'm town that they don't think any discussion will change that.  If they're that sure I'm town, there's no way you're going to convince them to vote for me today.

Right, that's what I said already. This is exactly why we have lost this game.

[pingpongsam]

Which is why I self-vote. The decisions are made the game is over. We may get lucky and Axxle flip scum. I have no strong reason to believe that will happen. There's nothing left to do.

[shraeye]

pps.  I had a thought while mowing.  Is there any chance that you lied about being a VT?  If so, we could very well win this game in 100% of the scenarios that exist.  Whether you're lying now by changing your answer, or lied as town in the past.

[pingpongsam]

PPS.

I want to post but I can't now that you've launched your little experiment.

No one is playing along. Go ahead and put your response out there. It was a trick setup the whole time, Axxle and I are both scum. Good thing town will win anyway because they are going to lynch us both without any of that silly thinking stuff left to do.

[pingpongsam]

pps.  I had a thought while mowing.  Is there any chance that you lied about being a VT?  If so, we could very well win this game in 100% of the scenarios that exist.  Whether you're lying now by changing your answer, or lied as town in the past.

I'm Town, why would I lie? I am VT as we will soon see.

[shraeye]

I could see a non-crazy scenario where in a town full of PRs and only 1 mafia, somebody says "i'm a VT" instead of pointing out exactly where an important role like Vig is.  In fact, Vig is a role that would guarantee us a win right now.

[pingpongsam]

I could see a non-crazy scenario where in a town full of PRs and only 1 mafia, somebody says "i'm a VT" instead of pointing out exactly where an important role like Vig is.  In fact, Vig is a role that would guarantee us a win right now.

Agreed. I am not a Vig. It would be sweet if I was, we probably wouldn't even have to be playing this day in that case.

[shraeye]

PPS, you are now arguing that axxle is town, despite the fact that EVERYBODY, even you, was nodding along to every Axxle-is-scum post I've made.

It seems to me that the reason you are arguing axxle is town and scotty is scum, is because THAT'S the scenario where we would leave you unlynched.  And you aren't arguing that Axxle is town because you believe it.  That looks really scummy.  And this comes from a stubborn player who at one point was yelling that you were town.  Your actions right now are not good town-actions.  It's perfectly alright for you to not want to be lynched.  I think that Robz is wrong in saying that mcmcs did the right thing by slipping quietly into the night. 

What *I* think is wrong, is that it really looks like you are now changing your perspective to say that scotty is scum ONLY because it's the perspective where lynching you is the worst idea.  Maybe I'm wrong here, but it feels more like you are saying "lynch scotty, not me" than you are saying "axxle is town, scotty is scum, I believe that because of X,Y,Z".

At this point, I would definitely lynch you, if only Axxle weren't manifestly scummier.

[shraeye]

EVERYBODY, even you, was nodding along to every Axxle-is-scum post I've made.

About this.  If everybody was nodding to my axxle-is-scum posts, why can't we do axxle first?  I'm very sold that it's axxle/PPS, but I haven't seen a single person disagree with me on Axxle except to say "yeah, you're right...but PPS! look at that!"

[shraeye]

I really really hope I can count on people to lynch Axxle if PPS flips town.  I'm on a mafia tear right now.  I'm feeling AWESOME.  And if this game gets lost despite the fact that I've managed to call EVERY scum, I will cry tears.  tears of frustration, because EVEN THOUGH PEOPLE ARE AGREEING WITH MY POINTS....the STITILLLLL want to lynch somebody else instead.

[pingpongsam]

PPS, you are now arguing that axxle is town, despite the fact that EVERYBODY, even you, was nodding along to every Axxle-is-scum post I've made.

It seems to me that the reason you are arguing axxle is town and scotty is scum, is because THAT'S the scenario where we would leave you unlynched.  And you aren't arguing that Axxle is town because you believe it.  That looks really scummy.  And this comes from a stubborn player who at one point was yelling that you were town.  Your actions right now are not good town-actions.  It's perfectly alright for you to not want to be lynched.  I think that Robz is wrong in saying that mcmcs did the right thing by slipping quietly into the night. 

What *I* think is wrong, is that it really looks like you are now changing your perspective to say that scotty is scum ONLY because it's the perspective where lynching you is the worst idea.  Maybe I'm wrong here, but it feels more like you are saying "lynch scotty, not me" than you are saying "axxle is town, scotty is scum, I believe that because of X,Y,Z".

At this point, I would definitely lynch you, if only Axxle weren't manifestly scummier.

None of what you are saying makes any sense considering I am voting for myself. I do not think Axxle is Town. nor do I think scotty is Town. I'm already lynched. It's either today or tomorrow. The game as a whole has decided they are not going to lynch scotty.

[pingpongsam]

I really really hope I can count on people to lynch Axxle if PPS flips town.  I'm on a mafia tear right now.  I'm feeling AWESOME.  And if this game gets lost despite the fact that I've managed to call EVERY scum, I will cry tears.  tears of frustration, because EVEN THOUGH PEOPLE ARE AGREEING WITH MY POINTS....the STITILLLLL want to lynch somebody else instead.

If I joined you on Axxle there aren't 2 more votes to make it happen. I am the de facto lynch today.

[shraeye]

The decisions are made the game is over. We may get lucky and Axxle flip scum. I have no strong reason to believe that will happen. There's nothing left to do.

Dude, this post says literally that.  You are upset that Axxle/PPS is a lynch pair, and are lamenting that if Axxle is indeed scum, then we're lucky.  Not skilled.  In fact you virtually said that word for word as well.

If Axxle flips scum tomorrow I will be relieved but I will count ourselves stupidly lucky as opposed to intelligently crafty.

[shraeye]

If I joined you on Axxle there aren't 2 more votes to make it happen. I am the de facto lynch today.

Join me on Axxle.  Why not?

[Robz888]

Shraeye, I only want to do PPS first because I don't trust you and mail-mi as much to lynch PPS tomorrow as much as I trust myself to lynch Axxle tomorrow. That is literally the only thing. We are going to lynch them both, I agree with you.

Let's stop clogging up the thread for mail-mi...

[pingpongsam]

The decisions are made the game is over. We may get lucky and Axxle flip scum. I have no strong reason to believe that will happen. There's nothing left to do.

Dude, this post says literally that.  You are upset that Axxle/PPS is a lynch pair, and are lamenting that if Axxle is indeed scum, then we're lucky.  Not skilled.  In fact you virtually said that word for word as well.

If Axxle flips scum tomorrow I will be relieved but I will count ourselves stupidly lucky as opposed to intelligently crafty.

Yes, because skill would be to remove the third outlier before choosing between the toss-up. Instead we are choosing to go straight to the toss-up without ever checking the 3rd outlier. We are artificially limiting our options with no good gain. I don't see it as sour grapes for being the lynch candidate just not comprehending why we have to do it so illogically.

[shraeye]

You can trust me to lynch PPS tomorrow if that exists.  His play today warrants that.  But I agree to leave the thread for mail-mi.  I'm just so wound up right now.

[pingpongsam]

I am scum putting myself at L-1 so that when I'm hammered I'll get the town cred tomorrow.

[shraeye]

nobody do anything really dumb.  please please please please.  Nothing that would warrant a modkill.  I don't know if there are extra penalties for that and I do NOOOOOT want to find out.

[Axxle]

nobody do anything really dumb.  please please please please.  Nothing that would warrant a modkill.  I don't know if there are extra penalties for that and I do NOOOOOT want to find out.

Let me just quote my pm here...
What the heck is this post?

[pingpongsam]

Yeah, that was just plain weird.

shraeye, assume I am Town and you are me, what is my best play right now?

[Robz888]

Hush time now. No one talk but mail-mi.

[Axxle]

hi

[Robz888]

As my brother would say, shush you.

[Axxle]

[pingpongsam]

Vote : Axxle

[Axxle]

Rolled 1d3 : 2, total 2

[Axxle]

forgot to say:
1: Axxle
2: scott
3: PPS

Vote scott!

[mail-mi]

Okay. I'm going to start my reread now. Reasonably certain I'll vote for PPS, but that might change.

[Robz888]

Okay. I'm going to start my reread now. Reasonably certain I'll vote for PPS, but that might change.

Mail mi! Talk to me

[Robz888]

You re reading is not that important. It's more important that you understand what's going on.

We re lynching pps today and axxle tomorrow NO MATTER WHAT.

Do NOT role block shraeye tonight. Block axxle. Okay?

[mail-mi]

You re reading is not that important. It's more important that you understand what's going on.

We re lynching pps today and axxle tomorrow NO MATTER WHAT.

Do NOT role block shraeye tonight. Block axxle. Okay?

Got it.

intent to hammer

or should I just do it?

[Robz888]

You can just hammer. Re read if you feel like it but listen to shraeye tomorrow and lynch axxle!!!!!!

[mail-mi]

vote: pps

[Robz888]

Thank you, late me state once again, we are lynching axxle tomorrow no matter what. No matter which of us survive. Shraeye and I collectively ruled out Scotty. Yes he has some scummy attributes and it will suck if we lose that way... But it's already decided. Axxle is scummier and I promised shraeye, who is town

[Axxle]

(That wasn't a hammer)

[pingpongsam]

(That wasn't a hammer)

Correct

[pingpongsam]

Do not read, do not think, just do as Robz says because that's the most fun game in the world.

[Robz888]

Argh. Okay, I need one more for pps. Lets go.

[mail-mi]

(That wasn't a hammer)

oops last vote count said so....

Do not read, do not think, just do as Robz says because that's the most fun game in the world.

getting pretty frustrated? Kinda like yuma D2?

[Axxle]

Part of me wants to hammer but if I'm wrong we lose.

Is Scott really that town for you guys?

[ashersky]

Vote Count 4.8:

Axxle (2): shraeye, PPS
PPS (3): Robz888, scott_pilgrim, Mail-mi
scott_pilgrim (1): Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 6 alive, it takes 4 to lynch.

Day 4 ends on March 25 at 8:00 a.m.

[Robz888]

Part of me wants to hammer but if I'm wrong we lose.

Is Scott really that town for you guys?

Yes and we are never ever ever lynching him.

[Axxle]

You realize I have absolutely no incentive to lynch pps and pps has no incentive to lunch me, right?

[Robz888]

You realize I have absolutely no incentive to lynch pps and pps has no incentive to lunch me, right?

Whatever. I don't care. I am so, so done putting up with the both of you.

Shraeye, I need you to send this to night. You have my solemn vow that it will be Axxle tomorrow, and mail-mi gets it. Let's go.

[Axxle]

You realize I have absolutely no incentive to lynch pps and pps has no incentive to lunch me, right?

Whatever. I don't care. I am so, so done putting up with the both of you.

Shraeye, I need you to send this to night. You have my solemn vow that it will be Axxle tomorrow, and mail-mi gets it. Let's go.

If you're going to lynch me and pps regardless of what happens. Why spend so much energy lynching pps first?

[Axxle]

Fuck , sorry.

vote: pps

[Robz888]

You realize I have absolutely no incentive to lynch pps and pps has no incentive to lunch me, right?

Whatever. I don't care. I am so, so done putting up with the both of you.

Shraeye, I need you to send this to night. You have my solemn vow that it will be Axxle tomorrow, and mail-mi gets it. Let's go.

If you're going to lynch me and pps regardless of what happens. Why spend so much energy lynching pps first?

I HAVE EXPLAINED THIS SO MANY TIMES. Because I know I will lynch you tomorrow. If we lynch you now and are wrong, and I die, I feel like there is some small chance that shraeye and mail-mi meander into a Scott lynch. It's a smaller and smaller chance I grant, you but I'm the IC, damn it, and I say PPS first. Which you should not have a problem with...

[Robz888]

Fuck , sorry.

vote: pps

Good. Thank you.

[Axxle]

I really rout I dir tonight but if I do look at robz and scottttt

[Robz888]

I really rout I dir tonight but if I do look at robz and scottttt

Axxle, you lost, you're scum remember?

[Robz888]

You can tell me now, it's over.

[Axxle]

If i was scum I'd just vote myself and end the game..,

[Axxle]

unvote

[pingpongsam]

unvote

That's cute. Good job throwing the game down the toilet because you refused to lynch scum while you still could, Robz.

[pingpongsam]

(That wasn't a hammer)

oops last vote count said so....

Do not read, do not think, just do as Robz says because that's the most fun game in the world.

getting pretty frustrated? Kinda like yuma D2?

Keep telling yourself you did the right thing. Scotty finds it hilarious.

[ashersky]

Final day 4 Vote Count:

Axxle (2): shraeye, PPS
PPS (4): Robz888, scott_pilgrim, Mail-mi, Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 6 alive, it took 4 to lynch.

[ashersky]

Pingpongsam, inhabiting the body of BMO, the Vanilla Townie, has been lynched.

Night has started.  Actions due in 24 hours.

[ashersky]

Night action deadline in 10 minutes or so.

I expect to end night early, unless a player objects by PM.

[ashersky]

Everyone still at the treehouse was getting tired.  It seemed like the mystery would never end, and the vial of brown goo was running low.  Even though they had poured the brown goo on BMO yesterday, ruining his birthday, everyone was too tired to be too sad to sleep.

So slept, they did.  And when they woke up, they found someone else missing.  Finn ran to the window and saw Princess Bubblegum being carted off by a giant spider.  "Princess!!!  I will save you!!!"

shraeye, inhabiting the body of Princess Bubblegum, the 1-Shot Doctor, has been removed from the party.

[ashersky]

Vote Count 5.0:

Not Voting (0): scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mail-mi, Axxle

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 will end in ten days, on April 2 at 5:40 p.m.

[scott_pilgrim]

Yeah no way it's mail-mi or Robz

vote: Axxle

[mail-mi]

robz, why aren't you dead.

[scott_pilgrim]

robz, why aren't you dead.

Because scum wants us to start considering the possibility he's scum, it's just WIFOM.  Also, because killing the doc is safe.

[mail-mi]

vote: no lynch.
scum'll either get rid of me or robz, or one of the suspects iwll be down.

[mail-mi]

robz, why aren't you dead.

Because scum wants us to start considering the possibility he's scum, it's just WIFOM.  Also, because killing the doc is safe.

it might not be, tho.

[scott_pilgrim]

robz, why aren't you dead.

Because scum wants us to start considering the possibility he's scum, it's just WIFOM.  Also, because killing the doc is safe.

it might not be, tho.

I mean yeah, it's still possible it's Robz but it's so unlikely that I don't think there's anything anyone can say that would make me think it's more likely Robz is scum than Axxle.

[scott_pilgrim]

I mean we could no lynch here but I would rather just end this today so we don't do anything stupid tomorrow.

[Axxle]

vote: no lynch.
scum'll either get rid of me or robz, or one of the suspects iwll be down.

If it's best to no lynch, it's probably also best for scott to no kill.

Vote: Scott

[Axxle]

vote: no lynch.
scum'll either get rid of me or robz, or one of the suspects iwll be down.

If it's best to no lynch, it's probably also best for scott to no kill.

Vote: Scott

Especially since I have to convince TWO people he's scum, rather than just one.

[Robz888]

robz, why aren't you dead.

Because scum wants us to start considering the possibility he's scum, it's just WIFOM.  Also, because killing the doc is safe.

No, that's not why. Killing shraeye was scum's optimal move, no matter what. Shraeye was a one-shot Doc. No one knew whether shraeye had used that shot or not. Scum can't both block mail-mi AND shraeye. Scum NEEDS to block mail-mi and shoot the one person shraeye can't protect, which is shraeye himself.

I believe Axxle would have certainly thought of this, but Scott--a relative newbie--might not have. So I guess that's another small, small point in favor of lynching Axxle.

But regardless, I'm just going to keep my promise. My reads have been sufficiently off, anyway. Whereas shraeye has been right on about everything, and we now know he is town.

Vote: Axxle.

(I'm sure this means it's actually Scott, because that will be the most demoralizing thing, but oh well.)

[mail-mi]

well. i guess I'm deciding, huh?

robz, why aren't you dead.

Because scum wants us to start considering the possibility he's scum, it's just WIFOM.  Also, because killing the doc is safe.

No, that's not why. Killing shraeye was scum's optimal move, no matter what. Shraeye was a one-shot Doc. No one knew whether shraeye had used that shot or not. Scum can't both block mail-mi AND shraeye. Scum NEEDS to block mail-mi and shoot the one person shraeye can't protect, which is shraeye himself.

I believe Axxle would have certainly thought of this, but Scott--a relative newbie--might not have. So I guess that's another small, small point in favor of lynching Axxle.

But regardless, I'm just going to keep my promise. My reads have been sufficiently off, anyway. Whereas shraeye has been right on about everything, and we now know he is town.

Vote: Axxle.

(I'm sure this means it's actually Scott, because that will be the most demoralizing thing, but oh well.)

your'e right, and scott probably would be too newbish to figure that out,

still harboring doubts tho,

what shoudl I do, auuuugggh!

[Axxle]

Scott said "Because killing the doc is safe"

He figured it out to at least that extent.

[Robz888]

Well, nice to know for sure you're not scum.

I'd say just lynch Axxle. We can't not do what shraeye wants after all that, unless we were so overridingly convinced about Scott. And we won't be.

[Robz888]

Well, nice to know for sure you're not scum.

I'd say just lynch Axxle. We can't not do what shraeye wants after all that, unless we were so overridingly convinced about Scott. And we won't be.

This was in reference to mail-mi's post.

[Robz888]

Scott said "Because killing the doc is safe"

He figured it out to at least that extent.

That's true.

Still, shraeye has been right about everything and we promised him and I don't see how we could not listen to him, especailyl when I'm basically 50/50 on them at this point.

[Axxle]

Vote: No Lynch

That's a hammer I believe.

[Axxle]

Sorry, I can't risk mailmi losing the game here. This buys a bit more time.

[mail-mi]

Well, nice to know for sure you're not scum.

I'd say just lynch Axxle. We can't not do what shraeye wants after all that, unless we were so overridingly convinced about Scott. And we won't be.

This was in reference to mail-mi's post.

ah ah ah ah i don't know hwt to do....

[mail-mi]

Vote: No Lynch

That's a hammer I believe.

no it's not. 3 to lynch.

unvote

[mail-mi]

Well, nice to know for sure you're not scum.

I'd say just lynch Axxle. We can't not do what shraeye wants after all that, unless we were so overridingly convinced about Scott. And we won't be.

This was in reference to mail-mi's post.

ah ah ah ah i don't know hwt to do....

*what

[Axxle]

I've been thinking of the kills each day, and there is no way I'd have advocated them. Andrew was a newbie that wouldn't have done much during the game even if he was a strong power role. Then Eevee seemed like a stroke of luck although he might have been approaching IC status because of robz's comments at the end of the day? Not sure. Shraeye not dying even though he pegged yuma early would not have been something I let go. People forget the dead's reads so much more than living players.

[Axxle]

Vote: No Lynch

That's a hammer I believe.

no it's not. 3 to lynch.

unvote

3 to lynch, that means 2 people is all that it takes to agree to no lynch before a lynch is impossible. (I haven't No Lynched on this site before so maybe we do it differently here)

[Robz888]

We generally do "No Lynch" as taking the same amount of votes as Lynch.

[Robz888]

Mail-mi, please hammer Axxle now.

[mail-mi]

AAAAAHHHHH i hate being in this position!

shraeye has been so right about everyone else...but he was completely wrong on me...

I had a earlier scumread on scotty....

Robz didn't die,...

UUUGGGGHHHH.

[Robz888]

Okay, mail-mi, I understand what you are saying but like you gotta just hammer Axxle now. We promised, and there's no reason to think shraeye was wrong.

[Axxle]

Mailmi, your instincts have been pretty spot on all game too. You were on scum days 1 and 2 and didn't mislynch mcmc. I wish I trusted myself on scott earlier too.

Robz. We've been on mislynch after mislynch after you've stated these hard facts on what we are doing today without budging an inch. It'd be helpful if you listened to the other players this game.

[Axxle]

"but now I'm listening to shraeye"
no. You're listening to yourself and just happen to have shraeye there as an excuse.

[Robz888]

Mailmi, your instincts have been pretty spot on all game too. You were on scum days 1 and 2 and didn't mislynch mcmc. I wish I trusted myself on scott earlier too.

Robz. We've been on mislynch after mislynch after you've stated these hard facts on what we are doing today without budging an inch. It'd be helpful if you listened to the other players this game.

I am listening to the other players now. That's why I am lynching you. I listened to no one else for the last two days and was wrong--despite my own certainty--both times.

[Robz888]

"but now I'm listening to shraeye"
no. You're listening to yourself and just happen to have shraeye there as an excuse.

This is simply not true.

[Teproc]

Vote Count 5.1:

Axxle (2) : scott_pilgrim, Robz888
No lynch (1) : Axxle

Not Voting (1): mail-mi

With 4 alive, it takes 3 to lynch.

Day 5 will end in ten days, on April 2 at 5:40 p.m.

[mail-mi]

Mailmi, your instincts have been pretty spot on all game too. You were on scum days 1 and 2 and didn't mislynch mcmc. I wish I trusted myself on scott earlier too.

Robz. We've been on mislynch after mislynch after you've stated these hard facts on what we are doing today without budging an inch. It'd be helpful if you listened to the other players this game.

axxle is making some pretty good points.

auggh i hate this so much. well, I'm glad i survived (that doesn't usually happen) but i hate this position.

[Robz888]

Mailmi, your instincts have been pretty spot on all game too. You were on scum days 1 and 2 and didn't mislynch mcmc. I wish I trusted myself on scott earlier too.

Robz. We've been on mislynch after mislynch after you've stated these hard facts on what we are doing today without budging an inch. It'd be helpful if you listened to the other players this game.

axxle is making some pretty good points.

auggh i hate this so much. well, I'm glad i survived (that doesn't usually happen) but i hate this position.

Axxle is not making any good points. I am listening to others, I'm listening to the confirmed town who correctly pegged the other two scum, and was dead set against the last two mislynches, because he wanted to lynch Axxle.

[Robz888]

Hammer time, mail-mi.

[mail-mi]

vote: axxle.

i sure hope you're right.

[Robz888]

I sure hope so, too.

Think of this way: If we're wrong, you're pretty blameless, at least.

[Robz888]

I'm probably going to vomit either way, though.

[ashersky]

Thread locked.

[ashersky]

Final Day 5 Vote Count:

Axxle (3) : scott_pilgrim, Robz888, mail-mi
No lynch (1) : Axxle

Not Voting (0):

With 4 alive, it took 3 to lynch.

[ashersky]

"I can't take this anymore!  I'm sorry everyone, the party's ruined..."  scott_pilgrim, inhabiting the body of Finn the Human, looked around at the remaining guests.  Robz888, inhabiting the body of Tree Trunks was sitting on the couch.  mail-mi, inhabiting the body of the Flame Princess, floating nearby.  And Axxle, inhabiting the body of Jake the Dog, was curled up at Finn's feet.

"Jake...it must be you.  Only you are super awesome enough to be unstoppable when he's evil!  I vote for you, Jake!"  Finn's hands were shaking, because Jake was his best friend.

"Yeah, I trust you Finn.  I'll vote for Jake too!"  Tree Trunks said.  "Come on Flame Princess, you can trust Finn, right?"

"I suppose so.  Finn, is this the right thing to do?  I hope so...I vote for Jake."  The Flame Princess hung her head.

"Aw, come on guys, that's not fair!  It's me, Jake!  I'm alright!  Aw man..."  Jake took the brown goo and drank it down in one gulp.  He writhed and fell to the ground, holding his stomach.  "Oh, it's so gross!  Noooo!"


The game is over!  scott_pilgrim, inhabiting to body of the Flame Princess, was the Mafia Roleblocker!  Town has been endgamed!

[Robz888]

 

[Robz888]

[ashersky]

"Nooooooooooo!!!!!"  Finn fell to his knees, sobbing.  "I'm so sorry Jake!  I'm still your best friend!  I promise!"  Finn cried into his hands while everyone hung their heads in shame.

Suddenly, Princess Bubblegum returned, having escaped from the giant spider!  "No Finn, it's okay!  It's not your fault!  Look!"

Finn raised his head, looking at Jake's body on the floor.  He looked...different?

"I found a magical powder that will fix everyone!  Close your eyes!"  Princess Bubblegum threw a golden powder into the air, and everyone felt a whirling wind.

Finn watched as Jake's body transformed...into THE GOLIAD!!!!  "Jake, you aren't Jake after all!  And that means I'm not the evil one!"

Axxle, inhabiting the body of Jake the Dog, was lynched.  He was the Mafia Roleblocker.

Town wins!

[ashersky]

You posted too fast.  I was still working the flavor!

[Robz888]

Wait what?

[Teproc]

You won. COngrats !

Meaning Robz won. And town. And not Axxle.

[ashersky]

I actually locked the thread after the first flavor post so I could write the second, but you posted in between.

So I had to rush the second post.

Town won.

[Robz888]

I'll stop posting sorry sorry sorry

[Axxle]

[ashersky]

I was trying to resolve the story and get everyone back into their own bodies.

Here's the breakdown:

Player/Inhabited Body/Actual Flavor
Shraeye, Princess Bubblegum, Finn the Human 1-Shot Doctor
mail-mi, the Flame Princess, Jake the Dog Town Roleblocker
PPS, BMO, Princess Bubblegum the VT
Walrus, The Lich, Lady Rainicorn the Town Cop
Scott, Finn, Marceline
ADK, Gunter, BMO
Mcmc, Marceline, tree trunks
Andrew, goliad, Flame Princess
Robz, tree trunks, gunter
Yuma, Lady Rainicorn, is The Lich, Mafia Godfather
Raerae, The Ice King, is The Ice King, Mafia Strongman
Axxle, Jake the Dog, is The Goliad, Mafia Roleblocker

[ashersky]

I'll stop posting sorry sorry sorry

Doesn't matter.  It was a trollish ending anyway.

[mcmcsalot]

hahahah gratz everyone!

[ashersky]

Long story short:

The Goliad was inhabiting Jake's body, and he used his magic to make everyone think they killed a good guy and Finn was a bad guy.  But Princess Bubblegum figured it out, fixed everyone with magic gold powder, and they realized that the Jake they lynched was actually The Goliad!

[Axxle]

shraeye, you're too good!

[mcmcsalot]

also I can't believe you actually thought I was scum. Like I knew there was no changing your mind so I figured lets not waste time but bleh you read me bad

[ashersky]

QTs

Mod: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/76PxbLhzPTCV
Mafia: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/GJFkjYfdBcK
Spec: http://www.quicktopic.com/50/H/pJWpZRt9XS57

[Teproc]

MVP talk :

I'd give it to Axxle. Yeah, that has only been done once, but he got so close with such an awful start, and the scum QT is awesome, so there.

Town options are Robz and shraeye. Robz did a good IC job I think, especially for someone who never actually was an IC (Eevee did investigate him though, the crumb was correct). Sure, he got a lot of things wrong, but he ended up identifying enough townies to make it work.

And then shraeye... this guy. Between this and Hangman, I never ever want to play as scum against him again. Never. Guy has a sixth sense.

[ashersky]

Night Action Recaps:

N1:
Axxle roleblocks Robz888
mail-mi roleblocks shraeye
shraeye 1-shot doctors noone
Axxle nightkills AndrewisFTTW
Eevee investigates Robz888 (receives "Town" result)

N2:
Axxle roleblocks Robz888
mail-mi roleblocks noone (deadline missed)
shraeye 1-shot doctors noone (deadline missed)
Axxle nightkills Eevee
Eevee investigates PPS (receieves "Town" result)
ADK inherits "Town Cop" role

N3:
Axxle roleblocks ADK
mail-mi roleblocks Robz888
shraeye 1-shot doctors Robz888
Axxle nightkills ADK
ADK investigates PPS (blocked)

N4:
Axxle roleblocks mail-mi
mail-mi roleblocks Axxle (fails)
Axxle nightkills shraeye

[Robz888]

also I can't believe you actually thought I was scum. Like I knew there was no changing your mind so I figured lets not waste time but bleh you read me bad

Well, after I re-read you, you basically just had ALL the wrong votes at the wrong times on Day 1. Not your fault, your votes just looked SUPER bad after raerae and yuma flip. You did something similar to yuma where you advocated for raerae but didn't vote for at the time she was in trouble.

You went down the correct way thoug... without causing further trouble... unlike PPS, so thanks for that!

[Robz888]

I'll stop posting sorry sorry sorry

Doesn't matter.  It was a trollish ending anyway.

It was, but I am so relieved I forgive you

[Axxle]

The N1 kill still bothers me, I know that I was worried that Andrew was approaching IC status after raerae's tunnelling, and that his gut reads were eerily good, but I'm not sure it was the best decision.

[scott_pilgrim]

Yay!

[Robz888]

MVP talk :

I'd give it to Axxle. Yeah, that has only been done once, but he got so close with such an awful start, and the scum QT is awesome, so there.

Town options are Robz and shraeye. Robz did a good IC job I think, especially for someone who never actually was an IC (Eevee did investigate him though, the crumb was correct). Sure, he got a lot of things wrong, but he ended up identifying enough townies to make it work.

And then shraeye... this guy. Between this and Hangman, I never ever want to play as scum against him again. Never. Guy has a sixth sense.

I think I did a good job focusing everyone. I basically refused to let town commit the mistakes I witnessed in other games where I was dead--basically just meandering to bad lynches. I resolved to be a dictator htat would shut down conflicting thoughts. I actually think this a pretty good aproahc.

I think I should be out of MVP contention, though, because I really butchered the claiming. Asher's setup was well designed to foil the sort fo thing I wanted to do, which I didn't realize until it was too late. I put ADK in a position to claim, too, which almost lost the game!

I think shraeye or Axxle are very deserving candidates. I think it's sort of hard to argue with shraeye's like perfect reads, though.

[Voltaire]

I'll stop posting sorry sorry sorry

Doesn't matter.  It was a trollish ending anyway.

 

[Voltaire]

MVP shraeye, hands down I say.

[Axxle]

MVP shraeye, hands down I say.

[Robz888]

I totally bought ash's initial post. I read it and thought: "You idiot. Your Day 1 random thing, Scott reacted so scummy. It was him, you knew it then. Gar!"

You never know in this game. You just never know. (Unless you are shraeye.)

[ashersky]

I'll stop posting sorry sorry sorry

Doesn't matter.  It was a trollish ending anyway.

 

Well, if there hadn't been a quick post during the lock, I would have finished the story.

[A Drowned Kernel]

I was originally thinking Robz for MVP but in retrospect yeah probably Shraeye.

[pingpongsam]

Vote PPS for LVP.

I swear I am tainted. I've played scum so much I don't know how to play town without a role to leverage.

[pingpongsam]

I have to admit on the first faux loss post I had a surge of vindication towards Robz coupled with the bitterness of loss. now I just look like a doodie head. Can't wait to read the QTs.

[pingpongsam]

Reading the Mafia QT it looks like Axxle's NK on Eevee was a lucky strike. My play to get copped did work but was foiled forever by this kill. Axxle, did you just pick Eevee to eliminate the townier options or did you read him as possible cop?

[Axxle]

Reading the Mafia QT it looks like Axxle's NK on Eevee was a lucky strike. My play to get copped did work but was foiled forever by this kill. Axxle, did you just pick Eevee to eliminate the townier options or did you read him as possible cop?

A town elimination for sure. Had no idea he was a cop.

[mail-mi]

I hate you, ash. Curse the troll ending.

Haha but seriously that was really fun! MVP to shraeye, totally.

[Robz888]

So, I completely disagree with mail-mi's use of his power those first three nights--obviously Night 2, but also the other two.

That said, it really helped. For one thing, he was an IC, because it was impossible to fake that story. For another, even though I think shraeye as a bad Night 1 choice, it end up mostly clearing him.

That was a big deal toward the end there, because shraeye was making me rally uneasy. Essentially, his reads were TOO good. Like, I was really worried he knew who the scum were because he was himself scum. The fact that mail-mi pretty much obsoleted that worry made it much easier to trust him on that second to last day. It also made it so that he was never going to be mislynched at the end basically--he was a pseudo IC along with me and mail-mi--so that Axxle basically had to kill him (also owing to the doc thing).

If mail-mi hadn't basially cleared shraeye, I think Axxle might have been best served taking the risk of the doctoring and just plain killing mail-mi, and then played on my fears that shraeye was all-knowing scum.

Instead, Axxle had no choice basically but to kill shraeye and hope for a screw up by mail-mi and Scott.

[Robz888]

Awesome setup by the way, ash.

[Axxle]

So, I completely disagree with mail-mi's use of his power those first three nights--obviously Night 2, but also the other two.

That said, it really helped. For one thing, he was an IC, because it was impossible to fake that story. For another, even though I think shraeye as a bad Night 1 choice, it end up mostly clearing him.

That was a big deal toward the end there, because shraeye was making me rally uneasy. Essentially, his reads were TOO good. Like, I was really worried he knew who the scum were because he was himself scum. The fact that mail-mi pretty much obsoleted that worry made it much easier to trust him on that second to last day. It also made it so that he was never going to be mislynched at the end basically--he was a pseudo IC along with me and mail-mi--so that Axxle basically had to kill him (also owing to the doc thing).

If mail-mi hadn't basially cleared shraeye, I think Axxle might have been best served taking the risk of the doctoring and just plain killing mail-mi, and then played on my fears that shraeye was all-knowing scum.

Instead, Axxle had no choice basically but to kill shraeye and hope for a screw up by mail-mi and Scott.

After reading this I realize it's very hard to pick an MVP this game. Yes shraeye had the right reads but the way he went about it would have been hugely detrimental to the town there if mailmi hadn't confirmed him. I think without that I might have been able to turn the town against him? I don't know. I was doing the best I could with what I had but it felt like it all came down to luck (from my point of view) that the town was willing to lynch others over me.

[mcmcsalot]

also I can't believe you actually thought I was scum. Like I knew there was no changing your mind so I figured lets not waste time but bleh you read me bad

Well, after I re-read you, you basically just had ALL the wrong votes at the wrong times on Day 1. Not your fault, your votes just looked SUPER bad after raerae and yuma flip. You did something similar to yuma where you advocated for raerae but didn't vote for at the time she was in trouble.

You went down the correct way thoug... without causing further trouble... unlike PPS, so thanks for that!

I thin that comes from looking at the votes and not actually reading. From an hoest standpoint I was furious we were not lynching raerae, I was confident she was scum my vote was on; not on her at times I wasn't sure of the vote count/was gone.

[Robz888]

So, I completely disagree with mail-mi's use of his power those first three nights--obviously Night 2, but also the other two.

That said, it really helped. For one thing, he was an IC, because it was impossible to fake that story. For another, even though I think shraeye as a bad Night 1 choice, it end up mostly clearing him.

That was a big deal toward the end there, because shraeye was making me rally uneasy. Essentially, his reads were TOO good. Like, I was really worried he knew who the scum were because he was himself scum. The fact that mail-mi pretty much obsoleted that worry made it much easier to trust him on that second to last day. It also made it so that he was never going to be mislynched at the end basically--he was a pseudo IC along with me and mail-mi--so that Axxle basically had to kill him (also owing to the doc thing).

If mail-mi hadn't basially cleared shraeye, I think Axxle might have been best served taking the risk of the doctoring and just plain killing mail-mi, and then played on my fears that shraeye was all-knowing scum.

Instead, Axxle had no choice basically but to kill shraeye and hope for a screw up by mail-mi and Scott.

After reading this I realize it's very hard to pick an MVP this game. Yes shraeye had the right reads but the way he went about it would have been hugely detrimental to the town there if mailmi hadn't confirmed him. I think without that I might have been able to turn the town against him? I don't know. I was doing the best I could with what I had but it felt like it all came down to luck (from my point of view) that the town was willing to lynch others over me.

Yes, but I do also think, if mail-mi had bothered to block anyone on Night 2, and had blocked someone other than me on Night 3, you might have been even MORE Poe'd that way.

[pingpongsam]

After reading this I realize it's very hard to pick an MVP this game.

Here's some PoE to help:

Definitely Not: yuma, raerae, PPS
Not: mcmcsalot, FTTW, scotty
Probably Not: Eevee, ADK
Possibilities: Robz, mail-mi, Axxle, shraeye

I give it to shraeye for the dead on reads. I say Axxle is the runner-up for some harrowing odds and the fact he totally mind-flipped me D4. I wasn't convinced he was scum but I was convinced we needed to check scotty first. I still am not convinced it wasn't the right move. That said, if I had not ever wavered from Axxle there's a decent chance we would have lynched Axxle D4.

mail-mi played a solid Town game in my opinion. Robz I think did a great job considering how he owned his increasing IC status. I think I tend to clash with some of the stronger personalities and Robz is one of them (as is yuma and raerae). What I learned this game was that a VT Town is sufficient fodder for the team to win without me. Also, scum are easily outed by confronting them with bizarre and erratic play although there are inevitably some town collateral in the mix.

What I did not learn this game was when to go with certainty and when to stay off of it..

[Robz888]

also I can't believe you actually thought I was scum. Like I knew there was no changing your mind so I figured lets not waste time but bleh you read me bad

Well, after I re-read you, you basically just had ALL the wrong votes at the wrong times on Day 1. Not your fault, your votes just looked SUPER bad after raerae and yuma flip. You did something similar to yuma where you advocated for raerae but didn't vote for at the time she was in trouble.

You went down the correct way thoug... without causing further trouble... unlike PPS, so thanks for that!

I thin that comes from looking at the votes and not actually reading. From an hoest standpoint I was furious we were not lynching raerae, I was confident she was scum my vote was on; not on her at times I wasn't sure of the vote count/was gone.

Um, no, it came from actually re-reading, which I did not once but twice.

Here's the red flag part:

vote: raerae

What answer could he have given that you would not have replied the same way?
From my perspective you asked him a question and afterwards voted him for a reason unrelated to his answer.

vote: raerae

What answer could he have given that you would not have replied the same way?
From my perspective you asked him a question and afterwards voted him for a reason unrelated to his answer.

Exactly how I feel about it. It can't be a serious vote. I dont get why someone would post out of spite in this game as it really doesn't help anything.

I want to add raerae is a doesn't one, I can see town raerae thinking Andrew is scum and doing this exact same thing. Remember pirates where she swapped in and went at it with another townie(I was scum and loved being able to pick either side) soo with that unvote off to reread Yuma and see of I get that sense from him

More remembrance, Yuma and me have discussed the idea of townie "pushing" lynches similarly to the way scum does and Yuma was of the opinion that town shouldn't and would rarely use tactics to make the person they think is scum look scummy so that is consistent with his thoughts in town!raerae not having a reason to do what she did.(correct me if I am misremembering)

He also mentions the poor town play possibility definitely no scum read there. This makes me want to go back to outing raerae though I think she is not the best day 1 lynch based on contributions.

That was a really unfortunate series of posts about someone who eventually flipped scum.

[Robz888]

I have to admit on the first faux loss post I had a surge of vindication towards Robz coupled with the bitterness of loss. now I just look like a doodie head. Can't wait to read the QTs.

It's fine, I've certainly gone down saying the same things and then feeling stupid for it later!

[AndrewisFTTW]

Thanks for the interesting first game even if I was only in it briefly! There's clearly a lot more to this game that I have to learn to keep up with you guys!

[yuma]

BOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!

HISSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!

BOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

HISSSSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!

[yuma]

Well played shraeye and Axxle... although I pretty much stopped watching after I was lynched. By far the most frustrating game I have ever played. And for everyone wondering... frustration is not a scumtell for me... it is a losing (mostly a losing badly) tell...

[Robz888]

Well played shraeye and Axxle... although I pretty much stopped watching after I was lynched. By far the most frustrating game I have ever played. And for everyone wondering... frustration is not a scumtell for me... it is a losing (mostly a losing badly) tell...

I agree, but I think what we were thinking was, you were only losing if you were scum, which is why your frustration seemed scummy.

[Robz888]

I do think raerae getting lynched was almost entirely bad luck for you. Usually, she would have been the person in LEAST danger of being lynched, after getting a wagon like that.

Shraeye really locked on to what was going on between the two of you, and I had my "Scum want early suspicion!" theory going that made me NOT want to spare that initial person like we usually do.

I think you guys--the scum team--should have worked harded to push my Scott lynch through when I proposed it.

[yuma]

Well played shraeye and Axxle... although I pretty much stopped watching after I was lynched. By far the most frustrating game I have ever played. And for everyone wondering... frustration is not a scumtell for me... it is a losing (mostly a losing badly) tell...

I agree, but I think what we were thinking was, you were only losing if you were scum, which is why your frustration seemed scummy.

Hmmm probably.... although I think I would have responded exactly the same to PPS's "caught you" scheme. I find those completely and totally ridiculous along with any strategy that calls for acting scummy to get someone to investigate you. That sort of play is just bad and if I were town in this game I would have reacted exactly the same and that was where my frustration was stemming from more than anything else.

[Robz888]

Oh, I have a question! Axxle: Why did you point out Eevee's breadcrumb? For the town cred? That might have gone unnoticed.

[ashersky]

I've actually gone back and forth on the official MVP winner, actually.  I mean, clearly it was shraeye through like D3.

But then a few things happened.  Axxle kept sticking around against all odds, for one.  I disagree with shraeye's choice to doctor away from the claimed Cop.  That would have been the game-changer right there.  And shraeye's tunnel (on scum, of course) can turn town off, which is detrimental.

Robz was a great force in the game, for sure.  He also made some errors on reads, but that's partly what happens when you get ICed.

In the end though, those first few days were the key.  The MVP is shraeye.  Axxle is the runner-up.

[Axxle]

Oh, I have a question! Axxle: Why did you point out Eevee's breadcrumb? For the town cred? That might have gone unnoticed.

For the town cred. And it worked for a while I think. I'm pretty sure it was in the back of PPS and mailmi's minds.

[yuma]

I do think raerae getting lynched was almost entirely bad luck for you. Usually, she would have been the person in LEAST danger of being lynched, after getting a wagon like that.

Shraeye really locked on to what was going on between the two of you, and I had my "Scum want early suspicion!" theory going that made me NOT want to spare that initial person like we usually do.

I think you guys--the scum team--should have worked harded to push my Scott lynch through when I proposed it.

Agreed. It was bad luck and also just poor play by us. But more importantly no one was around! People weren't around for the last few days at all for me to even try and manipulate them. They just kind of plopped their vote down cause it was convenient.

[Robz888]

Well played shraeye and Axxle... although I pretty much stopped watching after I was lynched. By far the most frustrating game I have ever played. And for everyone wondering... frustration is not a scumtell for me... it is a losing (mostly a losing badly) tell...

I agree, but I think what we were thinking was, you were only losing if you were scum, which is why your frustration seemed scummy.

Hmmm probably.... although I think I would have responded exactly the same to PPS's "caught you" scheme. I find those completely and totally ridiculous along with any strategy that calls for acting scummy to get someone to investigate you. That sort of play is just bad and if I were town in this game I would have reacted exactly the same and that was where my frustration was stemming from more than anything else.

Yeah, it was more your "checked-out" frustration at the very end hat made me really sure we had you. By then it didn't matter much.

I also thought PPS's stuff was ridiculous and was an attempt by your last partner to distance, wrong about that unfortunately.

[yuma]

O well though, just glad it is finally over so people can go sign up for other games that are about to start so I can move closer to getting another chance of playing well.

[ashersky]

As for the set-up, I'm glad folks liked it.  I was worried we wouldn't get to see a lot of interaction given how quickly the scum team disappeared.

I do hope we can get a few more runthroughs of asher9++.  I'd like to see what other set-ups come out of the random rolls, and if anyone can do a better job of working out a massclaim/setup solve than Robz's attempt here.

[Axxle]

As for the set-up, I'm glad folks liked it.  I was worried we wouldn't get to see a lot of interaction given how quickly the scum team disappeared.

I do hope we can get a few more runthroughs of asher9++.  I'd like to see what other set-ups come out of the random rolls, and if anyone can do a better job of working out a massclaim/setup solve than Robz's attempt here.

I initial thought is that it's pretty much unsolvable in most cases. That's probably a good thing.

[ashersky]

As for the set-up, I'm glad folks liked it.  I was worried we wouldn't get to see a lot of interaction given how quickly the scum team disappeared.

I do hope we can get a few more runthroughs of asher9++.  I'd like to see what other set-ups come out of the random rolls, and if anyone can do a better job of working out a massclaim/setup solve than Robz's attempt here.

I initial thought is that it's pretty much unsolvable in most cases. That's probably a good thing.

That was my goal.

It's clearly possible to narrow it down based on scum flips.  But if it was just town flips and/or claims, it's basically impossible (I think).  There are a few particular setups that would be pretty easily solved, but they've have to come up randomly.

[shraeye]

Enjoyed a return to mafia; and I'm super glad that my reads were vindicated and acted on.  I got super worried reading mail-mi's final day posts. and then had a flash of insta-depression when I read that scott was final scum.  But in the end, I feel great, thanks.

[yuma]

Enjoyed a return to mafia; and I'm super glad that my reads were vindicated and acted on.  I got super worried reading mail-mi's final day posts. and then had a flash of insta-depression when I read that scott was final scum.  But in the end, I feel great, thanks.

So.... be honest.... Are you just amazing? Or did you sneak a peak at raerae's mafia quicktopic? 

[shraeye]

haha, no.  I think I had some luck, plus a bug up my ass about the right things at the right time.  I sent ashersky a PM on day1 saying that I thought I had the mafia team called.  At that point it was raerae/axxle/andrew, if I recall correctly.  Then yuma got all waffly-weird on raerae it seemed, and I was convinced that HE must be a partner and that I was wrong in the first guess.

Later, I remembered Axxle, and did some rereading on him, and found more stuff that backed my suspicion.  When I looked back on day1 more fully, I realized that I thought raerae/Andrew was suspicious, and that Andrew/Axxle was suspicious and that Andrew was the link between them.  So I should have forgiven Axxle once Andrew flipped town, but all I remembered in my mind was that I had raerae/axxle/andrew called, and had to replace one of those guys with yuma.  My day1 story made less sense in my head, but I had seen so much scummy from axxle, that I couldn't give up that thread at all.

[yuma]

yeah, you had me in a bad position.

Although I still maintain that it is perfectly normal and fine behavior from town (or someone trying to emulate town) to have a scum read and then disagree with why someone found them scummy... I don't even remember what it was specifically but it was what got you on my back.

Right this was the post:

Playing the why is everyone ganging up on me/tunneling me card is an emotional ploy regardless of alignment.

It isn't always a ploy though. Perhaps people perceive it as such, but it isn't. I can tell you that I am not so full in control of my emotions that I can use them exclusively as "ploys." Sometimes my emotions come out--regardless of alignment--with no ulterior motive other than me being a human.

I do think that people calling out someone as scummy for having emotion is far and away scummier than someone being emotional. It is too hard to tell if emotions are feigned or real in this setting. And far too often I think they are real.

in regard to PPS's post about raerae "playing the victim"

My post had nothing to do with raerae being my partner and more about trying to keep the emotion out of the game (for the sake of the game) as I think when people start to question other people's emotions and call them out as fake or feigned or whatever it gets awkward and uncomfortable and can quickly escalate and is a post that I would have commented on regardless of my alignment or raerae's alignment.

And to have you call me out on it--correctly--but for completely the wrong reasons was extremely, extremely frustrating as all I wanted to do was to diffuse a situation to dispel any hard feelings or negativity in the game in general

[pingpongsam]

Axxle made it as far as he did precisely because his emotions were always in check.

[pingpongsam]

I am surprised my lingering self vote didn't sway anyone back to Axxle. I posit that I was both being punished for bad behavior and remaining firmly suspicious because of emotional ardor.

[Teproc]

I am surprised my lingering self vote didn't sway anyone back to Axxle. I posit that I was both being punished for bad behavior and remaining firmly suspicious because of emotional ardor.

You were acting erratingly. You did that as scum in DoP, and acting erratingly is anti-town. I'm surprised you weren't lynched earlier to be honest

[shraeye]

N2:
Axxle roleblocks Robz888
mail-mi roleblocks noone (deadline missed)
shraeye 1-shot doctors noone (deadline missed)
Axxle nightkills Eevee
Eevee investigates PPS (receieves "Town" result)
ADK inherits "Town Cop" role

I would like to briefly discuss night actions, and deadlines.  I fully disagree with having an action-deadline of 24 hrs, especially if said 24 hrs fall over a weekend.  Such as night 2, starting on Friday at 5pm.  I was on my way back from a conference in Boca, landed Friday evening, in time to pack and go on vacation the very next day.  I PMed ash as soon as I was settled in and had a moment, the first time I had touched internet since before the day had actually ended. 

I don't want special dispensation in these circumstances; I understand that it's good policy to have a single rule in place and enforce it...I think the current rule should be changed.  I just think that if night is 48 hours long, then a submission deadline that is much closer to the regular deadline is best; this is not the first time I've had severe trouble with 24 hr nights.  I'm also disappointed that on the night in question mafia received a reminder to submit night actions (it turns out they had been submitted but missed; still the principle is the same), yet town-folk did not.

[ashersky]

When night begins is a decision the town makes, if ending a day before the deadline.  I try not to have a day end on a weekend, and will adjust as needed where I can.  In this case, town had plenty of time and could have lynched on Monday.  I've had a 24-hour night action submission policy for most of my games, and this is the first time anyone has missed it.  I wasn't going to make an exception mid-game, obviously.

It's a fair complaint that I didn't prod town while I did post in the scum QT.  I generally always do that, though I'm not sure why.  In previous games, I know I've definitely PMed town PRs, too.

[mcmcsalot]

Well played shraeye and Axxle... although I pretty much stopped watching after I was lynched. By far the most frustrating game I have ever played. And for everyone wondering... frustration is not a scumtell for me... it is a losing (mostly a losing badly) tell...

I agree, but I think what we were thinking was, you were only losing if you were scum, which is why your frustration seemed scummy.

Hmmm probably.... although I think I would have responded exactly the same to PPS's "caught you" scheme. I find those completely and totally ridiculous along with any strategy that calls for acting scummy to get someone to investigate you. That sort of play is just bad and if I were town in this game I would have reacted exactly the same and that was where my frustration was stemming from more than anything else.

you mean you like how I reacted and got lynched for it, yea I agree with you yuma!

[mcmcsalot]

As for the set-up, I'm glad folks liked it.  I was worried we wouldn't get to see a lot of interaction given how quickly the scum team disappeared.

I do hope we can get a few more runthroughs of asher9++.  I'd like to see what other set-ups come out of the random rolls, and if anyone can do a better job of working out a massclaim/setup solve than Robz's attempt here.

I would definitely run it if I were to mod another game. I like these types of setups

[shraeye]

When night begins is a decision the town makes, if ending a day before the deadline.  I try not to have a day end on a weekend, and will adjust as needed where I can.  In this case, town had plenty of time and could have lynched on Monday.  I've had a 24-hour night action submission policy for most of my games, and this is the first time anyone has missed it.  I wasn't going to make an exception mid-game, obviously.

It's a fair complaint that I didn't prod town while I did post in the scum QT.  I generally always do that, though I'm not sure why.  In previous games, I know I've definitely PMed town PRs, too.

I just know this isn't the first time I've had an issue with the 24 hr deadline; sometimes scum can't fully discuss things before the kill is submitted, for example.

[yuma]

I have always had a rule in place that PRs should have a night action submitted to me, as a place holder at least, sent during the day if they felt that they would be unable to submit one during the night--or if they thought they would be absent for an extended period of time. However, no one has as yet taken me up on that for some reason.

I am with ash on this. 24 hours is plenty of time to discuss and think about kills, night actions, etc in most situations. Weekends are kind of an exception, as are holidays. But if a player is VLA or thinks they will be VLA it is up to them to get their actions to the mod before they leave.

And it is nice if you are running a game with multiple night actions to be able to have some time as a mod to make sure that all the pieces fit properly and you are processing the actions correctly. If you are running a Simple Game then yeah... it isn't necessarily needed, but with a RMM game or a game with lots of actions it can be nice.

[Teproc]

The problem with giving your action during the day is that you generally need to see the flip before you make your decision...

I get the need for 24 hour deadlines for RMM, not so much for normal games.

[yuma]

Although I generally also do not allow the game to move forward until all players have PMed me checking in for the night... So I don't really deal with people missing deadline that often...

[Axxle]

I am surprised my lingering self vote didn't sway anyone back to Axxle. I posit that I was both being punished for bad behavior and remaining firmly suspicious because of emotional ardor.

I couldn't vote you since it means I'd be lynched the next day if we we're wrong (assuming I'm town). Shraeye wouldn't vote you since he was so hard against me. That left only one person available to hammer (scott or mailmi, forget who), a calculated risk on scum's part.

[Teproc]

Vote Count 1.0:

Not Voting (9): Nik, Witherweaver, Delirious Deleuze, Ichimaru Gin, A Drowned Kernel, mcmcsalot, shraeye, faust, Voltaire

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014.

[Teproc]

Hm, wrong thread. Sorry !

[yuma]

Vote Count 1.0:

Not Voting (9): Nik, Witherweaver, Delirious Deleuze, Ichimaru Gin, A Drowned Kernel, mcmcsalot, shraeye, faust, Voltaire

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch.

Day 1 ends at 12:00 p.m. on April 1, 2014.

Awesome! the game has restarted! all stats and wins have been reset! Everyone vote for shraeye out of revenge! vote: shraeye

[shraeye]

Rather, my point was more of a shape up and play the game if you are Town so we aren't flopping around in an emotional cesspool of practically zero utility.

I'm not particularly suspicious of raerae. I think she is playing poorly.

A thought.  Could we reduce the amount of "you are playing so shittily, sir" arguments to zero?  Surely these same sentiments can be phrased without the attack.  Even people with the same wincon could have different, yet both legitimate, methods of going about business.