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[silverspawn]

There is nothing in my post indicating I "can't take it" (meaning your lying and anti-town play). I am only doing my best to express my opinion that you are scum and if you are town, you are not playing a pro-town game. Suggesting that I quite mafia for reasons that you have fabricated is uncalled for and illogical.

It is clear that you think you know better than everyone else and are going to play how you wish to. By all means, you are free to play however you want. You are not free to insult me in the manner that you have though--and then continue onwards as if your unwarranted statements were actually pertinent.

I don't think anything I have said to you is an insult. The two worst things were "suck it up" and "if you can't handle that, stop playing mafia." I was conscious about being slightly offensive, and I also think you deserve this kind of response based on your posts. Your last post was basically saying "YOU LIED, HOW DARE YOU, I DON'T LIKE YOU" and then you voted for me. That's a policy vote. And the policy doesn't even make sense. If you want my opinion, I think that's plenty anti town.

Plus, this is a game, I'm trying to win this game, and being harsh to you is a part of that. Honestly, what did you expect? I think I expressed my feelings about the "you made a horrible decision everything you say now isn't worth anything" mentality plenty when ash brought it up. He could handle it. I don't see why you cant. People have said harsh things to me before, I'm really sensitive, and I didn't complain.

Really, you play mafia, and then you complain that people are lying to you.

[jotheonah]

I find the tone of this post unnecessarily hostile.
Considering that you lied, it's pretty obvious that you don't understand how that is a horrible thing to do as town. It doesn't matter that you think it worked out for you. I guessed correctly what you were doing right away, and if I was scum, I would have killed you N1.

I find the argument deserves a hostile response. you seem to be stuck in the mindset that a lie from town is anti town in all situations, and you stick to that despite the blatant facts.

if you think I'm scum, you can vote for me. but if I'm town, then I have kept a PR hidden until day3, and I've stopped possibly 3 of 4 kills. If you think that's a "horrible thing to do as town", then I can only repeat what I said in my last post. Ash said a similar thing, I gave him a similar response. I'm not being any more nice to you, and I don't know why you expected that.

So, I'm town and I kept a PR hidden just as long without having to lie to town to do it. So did Jimmmmm. So I'm not sure that ends-justfiy-the-means argument holds water.

But Silver brings up a good point. If Silver is telling the truth, we have a serial killer, and that means we have 3 missing kills, not just one. That only makes sense if there IS a jailkeeper. So the argument that we should lynch Silver because if his claim is true we have an SK and the kills so far don't indicate we have an SK doesn't really work.

So Silver, who did you jailkeep night 1?

[silverspawn]

So Silver, who did you jailkeep night 1?

ash. I said that when I claimed JK though.

[Witherweaver]

There is nothing in my post indicating I "can't take it" (meaning your lying and anti-town play). I am only doing my best to express my opinion that you are scum and if you are town, you are not playing a pro-town game. Suggesting that I quite mafia for reasons that you have fabricated is uncalled for and illogical.

It is clear that you think you know better than everyone else and are going to play how you wish to. By all means, you are free to play however you want. You are not free to insult me in the manner that you have though--and then continue onwards as if your unwarranted statements were actually pertinent.

I don't think anything I have said to you is an insult. The two worst things were "suck it up" and "if you can't handle that, stop playing mafia." I was conscious about being slightly offensive, and I also think you deserve this kind of response based on your posts. Your last post was basically saying "YOU LIED, HOW DARE YOU, I DON'T LIKE YOU" and then you voted for me. That's a policy vote. And the policy doesn't even make sense. If you want my opinion, I think that's plenty anti town.

Plus, this is a game, I'm trying to win this game, and being harsh to you is a part of that. Honestly, what did you expect? I think I expressed my feelings about the "you made a horrible decision everything you say now isn't worth anything" mentality plenty when ash brought it up. He could handle it. I don't see why you cant. People have said harsh things to me before, I'm really sensitive, and I didn't complain.

Really, you play mafia, and then you complain that people are lying to you.

So walk me through the logic of claiming VT in your first post?

[jotheonah]

I'm sure you did, but there was a lot of info flying around then.

IF Silver is telling the truth, then we ought to have had two kills night one.

We didn't.

Silver jailkept ash night one.

BUT, ash is just as likely to have been the target as the killer.

[Ichimaru Gin]

There is nothing in my post indicating I "can't take it" (meaning your lying and anti-town play). I am only doing my best to express my opinion that you are scum and if you are town, you are not playing a pro-town game. Suggesting that I quite mafia for reasons that you have fabricated is uncalled for and illogical.

It is clear that you think you know better than everyone else and are going to play how you wish to. By all means, you are free to play however you want. You are not free to insult me in the manner that you have though--and then continue onwards as if your unwarranted statements were actually pertinent.

I don't think anything I have said to you is an insult. The two worst things were "suck it up" and "if you can't handle that, stop playing mafia." I was conscious about being slightly offensive, and I also think you deserve this kind of response based on your posts. Your last post was basically saying "YOU LIED, HOW DARE YOU, I DON'T LIKE YOU" and then you voted for me. That's a policy vote. And the policy doesn't even make sense. If you want my opinion, I think that's plenty anti town.

Plus, this is a game, I'm trying to win this game, and being harsh to you is a part of that. Honestly, what did you expect? I think I expressed my feelings about the "you made a horrible decision everything you say now isn't worth anything" mentality plenty when ash brought it up. He could handle it. I don't see why you cant. People have said harsh things to me before, I'm really sensitive, and I didn't complain.

Really, you play mafia, and then you complain that people are lying to you.

I have made no personal attacks on you. The fact that you lied has no bearing on how I feel about you as an individual. It does have relevance to this game. The fact that you are aware of the closely out-of-line behavior that you are expressing to me and you deem it "necessary" for reasons which you fail to state is not a good sign.

There is never a reason why taking such an attitude will help you win the game--as I have previously said, it is uncalled for. Just because you lied, does not mean nothing you ever say in this game will matter to me, and I have not expressed anything to that effect.

The fact that you continue to justify your behavior and make the argument that it is somehow relevant to your wincon is ludicrous. This is my 11th Mafia game that I have played to date, and I have gotten into a large number of serious arguments with many different players, but they have all stayed within civil bounds. I will reiterate that there is no reason why your unwarranted hostility will help you win this game.

I play Mafia to enjoy myself. What you are trying to do right now is not fun. Although you may see yourself as such, you are not some arbiter who can dish out offensiveness to me just because you feel like it.

[silverspawn]

So, I'm town and I kept a PR hidden just as long without having to lie to town to do it. So did Jimmmmm. So I'm not sure that ends-justfiy-the-means argument holds water.

sure, I wasn't saying, "hey, I only survived because I did the genius claim". I was just listing facts. These facts are, I claimed VT day1, I stopped possibly 3 kills, I'm still alive day 3. Maybe I could have done the same without the claim. That's possible. Fact is, I accomplished far more than he did with his role. Given that the claim didn't cause any disadvantage, it's just not reasonable to say that it was poor play. There is no basis.

You could of course still argue that the claim was a mistake, and I'd be open to discuss that, but that's not what Ichi did. He really doesn't seem interested in the claim's consequences at all, as far as I can tell, he is just blindly hating on it.

[silverspawn]

I'm sure you did, but there was a lot of info flying around then.

IF Silver is telling the truth, then we ought to have had two kills night one.

We didn't.

Silver jailkept ash night one.

BUT, ash is just as likely to have been the target as the killer.

well, I had a null read on ash day 1, and I thought he'd be a valuable town player, so he seemed like the ideal target. It's not unlikely that either scum or SK tried to get rid of him.

[Witherweaver]

So, I'm town and I kept a PR hidden just as long without having to lie to town to do it. So did Jimmmmm. So I'm not sure that ends-justfiy-the-means argument holds water.

sure, I wasn't saying, "hey, I only survived because I did the genius claim". I was just listing facts. These facts are, I claimed VT day1, I stopped possibly 3 kills, I'm still alive day 3. Maybe I could have done the same without the claim. That's possible. Fact is, I accomplished far more than he did with his role. Given that the claim didn't cause any disadvantage, it's just not reasonable to say that it was poor play. There is no basis.

You could of course still argue that the claim was a mistake, and I'd be open to discuss that, but that's not what Ichi did. He really doesn't seem interested in the claim's consequences at all, as far as I can tell, he is just blindly hating on it.

How is this a fact?

[Witherweaver]

It's poor (town) play because if you didn't act so questionable early on, we might not be questioning your claim so much now and might more easily be able to identify the liar (not you in this hypothetical).

[jotheonah]

But Ichi's distrust of you, and mine, and Witherweaver's IS a consequence of the play. That's the number one reason you don't lie as town. Because later on you need your teammates to trust you. We don't. And what you don't seem to acknowledge, is that that could cost us the game if you ARE town and we mislynch you. And you know what? That won't be our fault. It will be yours.

Now what's done is done, and we have a lot of information to make an educated decision, so we don't HAVE to trust you, so in this case it seems to work out ok. But that's the risk you took when you lied as town (IF you lied as town) and that's what people are mad about.

You two should keep in mind, while you're squabbling, that one of the two of you is very likely scum, which means the argument is almost certainly unwinnable. So just let it go.

[Eevee]

Whether or not silver's gambit was good seems largely inconsequential though. Especially because most of us don't even know his alignment. And also because that's what he chose to do and our job is to catch scum, it's not like this game has a time-travelling mechanic that allows us to go back and change it or something.

[Witherweaver]

But Ichi's distrust of you, and mine, and Witherweaver's IS a consequence of the play. That's the number one reason you don't lie as town. Because later on you need your teammates to trust you. We don't. And what you don't seem to acknowledge, is that that could cost us the game if you ARE town and we mislynch you. And you know what? That won't be our fault. It will be yours.

Now what's done is done, and we have a lot of information to make an educated decision, so we don't HAVE to trust you, so in this case it seems to work out ok. But that's the risk you took when you lied as town (IF you lied as town) and that's what people are mad about.

You two should keep in mind, while you're squabbling, that one of the two of you is very likely scum, which means the argument is almost certainly unwinnable. So just let it go.

The number two reason is you make WW lose his first Mafia game ever.

[Ichimaru Gin]

But Ichi's distrust of you, and mine, and Witherweaver's IS a consequence of the play. That's the number one reason you don't lie as town. Because later on you need your teammates to trust you. We don't. And what you don't seem to acknowledge, is that that could cost us the game if you ARE town and we mislynch you. And you know what? That won't be our fault. It will be yours.

Now what's done is done, and we have a lot of information to make an educated decision, so we don't HAVE to trust you, so in this case it seems to work out ok. But that's the risk you took when you lied as town (IF you lied as town) and that's what people are mad about.

You two should keep in mind, while you're squabbling, that one of the two of you is very likely scum, which means the argument is almost certainly unwinnable. So just let it go.

My argument is not about silver's claim or him lying. It is related solely to his hostility and choice to interpret and make personal attacks.
PPE: 1

[Eevee]

You two should keep in mind, while you're squabbling, that one of the two of you is very likely scum, which means the argument is almost certainly unwinnable. So just let it go.

This!

If the person who is scum is backed into feeling he has to get unpleasant because his town self wouldn't back down from the argument, it could get all sorts of ugly. Much preferable for everyone if you both just let it go. If you feel you want to get to the bottom of it, a better time to do it would be after the game when neither has a hidden agenda.

[silverspawn]

It's poor (town) play because if you didn't act so questionable early on, we might not be questioning your claim so much now and might more easily be able to identify the liar (not you in this hypothetical).

well that is the obvious argument. And based on how everyone reacts, you seem to be right. I didn't expect this kind of response at all though. If I was in this game, someone else had claimed VT day 1, and then he came out and said that he really had a PR in day 3, do you think my reaction would be "you lied, now I don't believe you anymore?"

No. I'd think it's good play, I'd remember it, and if he ever does it again in another game, I'd be super suspicious. The "you lied, I don't believe you" mentality just seems immature to me, and completely unreasonable given that we are playing a game that's all about lying.

So, it's very obvious that I completely misjudged how other people would react. Well, I'm generally different from a lot of people, it's not uncommon that a lot of people consider something to be a certain way, and I just think that's very stupid. I could give you countless RL examples for that.

And really, if you could also argue that if you're not trusting me because I lied day 1 and that causes us to lose the game, that's really your fault, not mine.

PPE 5

[silverspawn]

*if you you

[Ichimaru Gin]

unvote

I'm done.

[Witherweaver]

It's poor (town) play because if you didn't act so questionable early on, we might not be questioning your claim so much now and might more easily be able to identify the liar (not you in this hypothetical).

well that is the obvious argument. And based on how everyone reacts, you seem to be right. I didn't expect this kind of response at all though. If I was in this game, someone else had claimed VT day 1, and then he came out and said that he really had a PR in day 3, do you think my reaction would be "you lied, now I don't believe you anymore?"

No. I'd think it's good play, I'd remember it, and if he ever does it again in another game, I'd be super suspicious. The "you lied, I don't believe you" mentality just seems immature to me, and completely unreasonable given that we are playing a game that's all about lying.

So, it's very obvious that I completely misjudged how other people would react. Well, I'm generally different from a lot of people, it's not uncommon that a lot of people consider something to be a certain way, and I just think that's very stupid. I could give you countless RL examples for that.

And really, if you could also argue that if you're not trusting me because I lied day 1 and that causes us to lose the game, that's really your fault, not mine.

PPE 5

The game is not all about lying.  The game for scum is about lying.  And even so, you don't necessarily have to lie as scum. 

You didn't answer my earlier question, though.  What was the point of claiming VT at all?  So far you've provided no upside and have only unsuccessfully argued against the obvious (and objective) downside.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Don't you know silver is infallible? If he did it, by definition it was the best course of action ever.

[Eevee]

It would be both your and joth's fault. You are always responsible of getting yourself lynched as town, just as you are responsible for voting for town as town. Not that placing blame particularly matters, the whole argument is unbelievably petty and stupid.

And generally mafia is about figuring out who are lying and lynching them. Counting all the blitz games and RMM's, I must be at something like 80 games played here. I remember town lying in four of them. Once it didn't matter (Galzria tried claiming 1-shot cop as a normal cop to avoid getting killed, scum killed him anyways), the three other times it failed horribly, causing that player to be the very next lynch once their lie was exposed. I'm not saying there aren't circumstances where town should lie (Galzria's lie was a good example), but there is a pretty strong precedent of new, smart people coming in, thinking they have it figured out better than the veterans and choosing to lie as town. It didn't work out for pingpongsam, it didn't work out for faust, we don't know yet if it ends up working for you (or if you even are town), but it would be a first. There is even a wiki article on this, http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Lynch_All_Liars, you aren't the first to come up with the genious idea of lying as town. You know, just something to think about.

[Witherweaver]

It would be both your and joth's fault. You are always responsible of getting yourself lynched as town, just as you are responsible for voting for town as town. Not that placing blame particularly matters, the whole argument is unbelievably petty and stupid.

And generally mafia is about figuring out who are lying and lynching them. Counting all the blitz games and RMM's, I must be at something like 80 games played here. I remember town lying in four of them. Once it didn't matter (Galzria tried claiming 1-shot cop as a normal cop to avoid getting killed, scum killed him anyways), the three other times it failed horribly, causing that player to be the very next lynch once their lie was exposed. I'm not saying there aren't circumstances where town should lie (Galzria's lie was a good example), but there is a pretty strong precedent of new, smart people coming in, thinking they have it figured out better than the veterans and choosing to lie as town. It didn't work out for pingpongsam, it didn't work out for faust, we don't know yet if it ends up working for you (or if you even are town), but it would be a first. There is even a wiki article on this, http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Lynch_All_Liars, you aren't the first to come up with the genious idea of lying as town. You know, just something to think about.

Add Shraeye lying as the Cop in my first newbie game (House of Cards) to the list. 

[Eevee]

Wait, PPS just claimed VT at the start of day 1 as a VT, so he didn't lie. I guess it's an example of trying to go against the conventional wisdom with bad results still.

[silverspawn]

the downside is not objective. why would you even say that.

What was the point of claiming VT at all?

Did you ask that? If you did, I didn't see it. Noone has asked me that since right in day1.

There is an answer for that, but it's very complicated, and very long. It's not even about this game, for the most part. And it also touches on a lot of more or less irrational feelings that I have about mafia. I'm not sure posting it is really a good idea. I was planing to do it after the game, if someone asked.

[jotheonah]

I guessed correctly what you were doing right away, and if I was scum, I would have killed you N1.

I believe this part of it.

And yet, Ichi DIDN'T kill silver night 1.

Does this mean Ichi's not scum?