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[Witherweaver]

Just watched the finale. I have some thoughts. Which I will try give without mentioning the books.

<thoughts>

Interesting.  I like the thoughts, though I'm not sure the Dorne thing is as bad as you're presenting it.  Is it really that different from what happened in the books?  Presumably, it's easier to steal a necklace from someone than it is to murder them, and even so, I don't think Ellaria originally wanted to kill her.  She was willing to, but I think her goal was to draw the Lannisters into a war.  Otherwise, why send the threat?  I might have to review the corresponding book plot.

Well, maybe she does want to kill Myrcella just out of vengeance or spite, but she really wants more than just Myrcella.

[Kuildeous]

Interesting.  I like the thoughts, though I'm not sure the Dorne thing is as bad as you're presenting it.  Is it really that different from what happened in the books?  Presumably, it's easier to steal a necklace from someone than it is to murder them, and even so, I don't think Ellaria originally wanted to kill her.  She was willing to, but I think her goal was to draw the Lannisters into a war.  Otherwise, why send the threat?  I might have to review the corresponding book plot.

Perhaps it's an attempt to look like the wronged party?

If Dorne sends a necklace, and the Lannisters freak out and wage war, then Dorne tells the world, "We thought her mother would like her necklace back; we didn't mean anything by it. Those Lannisters are brutes!" Meanwhile, they get to kill Lannisters.

And she did almost get to feign innocence when Jamie snuck into their country and killed a few Dornish people. But then war was averted, and Dorne could no longer enter a war while claiming to be the victim. So flat-out murder it is.

Just a possible perspective. I've not read the books, so take that with a grain of salt.

[Watno]

I'm really curious how they'll make Doran an interesting character in the show. It's a bit late for him to reveal that he had plans with Dany all the time.
I really don't get the changes to this storyline.

[Witherweaver]

Interesting.  I like the thoughts, though I'm not sure the Dorne thing is as bad as you're presenting it.  Is it really that different from what happened in the books?  Presumably, it's easier to steal a necklace from someone than it is to murder them, and even so, I don't think Ellaria originally wanted to kill her.  She was willing to, but I think her goal was to draw the Lannisters into a war.  Otherwise, why send the threat?  I might have to review the corresponding book plot.

Perhaps it's an attempt to look like the wronged party?

If Dorne sends a necklace, and the Lannisters freak out and wage war, then Dorne tells the world, "We thought her mother would like her necklace back; we didn't mean anything by it. Those Lannisters are brutes!" Meanwhile, they get to kill Lannisters.

And she did almost get to feign innocence when Jamie snuck into their country and killed a few Dornish people. But then war was averted, and Dorne could no longer enter a war while claiming to be the victim. So flat-out murder it is.

Just a possible perspective. I've not read the books, so take that with a grain of salt.

It was a pretty obvious threat, though. 

[pacovf]

Interesting.  I like the thoughts, though I'm not sure the Dorne thing is as bad as you're presenting it.  Is it really that different from what happened in the books?  Presumably, it's easier to steal a necklace from someone than it is to murder them, and even so, I don't think Ellaria originally wanted to kill her.  She was willing to, but I think her goal was to draw the Lannisters into a war.  Otherwise, why send the threat?  I might have to review the corresponding book plot.

Perhaps it's an attempt to look like the wronged party?

If Dorne sends a necklace, and the Lannisters freak out and wage war, then Dorne tells the world, "We thought her mother would like her necklace back; we didn't mean anything by it. Those Lannisters are brutes!" Meanwhile, they get to kill Lannisters.

And she did almost get to feign innocence when Jamie snuck into their country and killed a few Dornish people. But then war was averted, and Dorne could no longer enter a war while claiming to be the victim. So flat-out murder it is.

Just a possible perspective. I've not read the books, so take that with a grain of salt.

It was a pretty obvious threat, though.

IIRC, in the books, the point was that Dorne cannot win an offensive war, so the Sand Snakes were trying to provoke the Lannisters into attacking the Dornish Marches (and further inwards), where they would have the advantage. Doran wasn't very hot on the idea, because he thought that they would lose a defensive war too.

[eHalcyon]

Interesting.  I like the thoughts, though I'm not sure the Dorne thing is as bad as you're presenting it.  Is it really that different from what happened in the books?  Presumably, it's easier to steal a necklace from someone than it is to murder them, and even so, I don't think Ellaria originally wanted to kill her.  She was willing to, but I think her goal was to draw the Lannisters into a war.  Otherwise, why send the threat?  I might have to review the corresponding book plot.

Perhaps it's an attempt to look like the wronged party?

If Dorne sends a necklace, and the Lannisters freak out and wage war, then Dorne tells the world, "We thought her mother would like her necklace back; we didn't mean anything by it. Those Lannisters are brutes!" Meanwhile, they get to kill Lannisters.

And she did almost get to feign innocence when Jamie snuck into their country and killed a few Dornish people. But then war was averted, and Dorne could no longer enter a war while claiming to be the victim. So flat-out murder it is.

Just a possible perspective. I've not read the books, so take that with a grain of salt.

It was a pretty obvious threat, though.

IIRC, in the books, the point was that Dorne cannot win an offensive war, so the Sand Snakes were trying to provoke the Lannisters into attacking the Dornish Marches (and further inwards), where they would have the advantage. Doran wasn't very hot on the idea, because he thought that they would lose a defensive war too.

My impression from the books is that Doran simply had bigger plans that would have been disrupted if war broke out too early.

[pacovf]

My impression from the books is that Doran simply had bigger plans that would have been disrupted if war broke out too early.

Well, yes, but I don't know if that applies to the show. Especially considering that "plot" was kinda pointless.

[silverspawn]

uh... ow. argh. holy fuck.

[silverspawn]

 

[eHalcyon]

I finally finished ADWD!  I'll probably start watching the show sometime soon.

[eHalcyon]

Started watching the show.  Almost at the end of Season 2, I just finished Blackwater.

I'm generally enjoying it, though there are some changes that don't really make sense to me.  Also surprised at how much they cut in favour of keeping up a good pace.  I guess the trouble is setting up reliably thrilling high points for the season's penultimate and final episodes.

I've also been reading the AV club reviews, both the newbie and expert versions.  The expert ones actually bother me a little, when the reviewer makes mistakes.  For example, he suggests that the book did not adequately explain why Theon's decision to take Winterfell was flawed and appreciated that the show explained it -- being a naval power, Pyke doesn't much care for landlocked Winterfell.  But I am like 97% sure that this exact reason was given in the book.  Or, for the episode I just watched, the reviewer wrote this:

In terms of the adaptation, the best thing “Blackwater” has going for it is that it’s able to take stuff Martin could only hint at given the point-of-view structure and directly depict it.  When the Hound comes back behind the walls of the city, face pale with terror, we can now directly see just what it was that caused him to shake so. It’s the oldest trick in the book to make a threat seem great by making the strongest man seem terrified, but it’s a trick that almost always works, and it makes Tyrion’s subsequent decision to lead the Lannisters into battle himself that much more powerful.

I may be reading it wrong, but it sounds like he's completely missing the fact that Clegane is frightened because of the fire, not any other part of the battle.  Because of that, it doesn't really speak to Tyrion's bravery at all.  The review also dismisses the book version when I think it was perfectly clear why the Hound ran.  It's also worth noting that the newbies reviewer did accurately understand the character's motivation.

But anyway, show's been fine.

[Voltaire]

Yes, the Newbie AV reviews are much better in general. I quite like them.

[eHalcyon]

Oh, also, I had always pronounced "Jaime" as "Jaym" in my head, one syllable, rather than "Jay-mee".  Huhhh.

[eHalcyon]

Watched "Walk of Punishment", wherein we first see Riverrun.  The AV Club experts review gave credit to the show for succinctly demonstrating Tully personalities in the opening scene, wherein Edmure fails twice at lighting Hoster Tully's floating pyre and the Blackfish takes the bow to do it himself in one shot, just before the raft floats out of range around a bend.  Once again, that is a scene from the book, not a show invention.

But the review also praises the small council seat-shuffling scene, and I pretty sure that one is a show invention.  And I really liked it.  Interestingly, the reviewer seems to suggest that Tyrion's act of dragging his seat to the end of the table demonstrates how, though he is still bound to them, he no longer feels love for his family after his father's rejection of his claim to Casterly Rock.  I guess the idea is that he's literally getting as far away from them as possible.  I actually interpreted it in a different way -- rather than being petty and going out of his way for a position near the head of the table, I thought he was making a point in setting himself directly opposite his father.  Yes, the "power" position is the head of the table, but the head is just another end, right?

Still, the awkward tension of that scene was wonderful.

[eHalcyon]

I am caught up.  That last season really deviated from the books, wow.  I also find it curious how some story lines are advanced beyond the books now while others are still kind of dragging.

[silverspawn]

I am caught up.  That last season really deviated from the books, wow.  I also find it curious how some story lines are advanced beyond the books now while others are still kind of dragging.

... and? do you think the show got (substantially) worse during the last season?

[eHalcyon]

I am caught up.  That last season really deviated from the books, wow.  I also find it curious how some story lines are advanced beyond the books now while others are still kind of dragging.

... and? do you think the show got (substantially) worse during the last season?

I think some adaptation choices were questionable, but it wasn't substantially worse.  Even with some of the big changes, I thought they were well done.  I really liked Hardhome.

One of the worst things was that the Dorne plot.  It suffered from another major book plot being excised.

The Winterfell changes lose out on some interesting conspiracies and mysteries, plus the life of a certain bard.

Also, no Strong Belwas.

Still, I give it a pass.

[Kuildeous]

I was just wondering the other day. I've not read the books, and I certainly didn't read them as they were released, so I'm curious about people who have.

I presume that like the first season of the show, the first book warned that winter is coming. And while there were hints, winter hasn't yet come. Considering how long it took for books to come out, wasn't that at least a little frustrating? Though per the show, it looks like the walkers are finally ready to invade. Is that the case in the books too?

[Witherweaver]

I was just wondering the other day. I've not read the books, and I certainly didn't read them as they were released, so I'm curious about people who have.

I presume that like the first season of the show, the first book warned that winter is coming. And while there were hints, winter hasn't yet come. Considering how long it took for books to come out, wasn't that at least a little frustrating? Though per the show, it looks like the walkers are finally ready to invade. Is that the case in the books too?

It's more clear in the books that the seasons are different than ours, long and irregular: winter is something that can last for decades and not come again for decades.  So winters are dangerous and ominous, and the "is coming" phase lasts years. 

It's also, of course, a metaphor for a lot more, including the incoming doom of the walkers.  Maybe that's what you were referring to with the "hasn't yet come".  But I think that's okay; I like these things to build longer.  So spoilers:

The show has gone farther than the books with the White Walker story line: Hardhome didn't happen, though there was an analogous thing that happened off screen (out of point-of-view).  (At least, I think; it's been a bit.)  Also we didn't get a scene like a White Walker bringing a baby to a "council".  However, the impending threat feeling is more-or-less the same, just not really shown.  We know (from reports) that there is an army amassing; and there are a lot of vague hints/reports on what's happening up on the east coast above the wall.  (Eastwatch by the Sea, which is where Hardhome is.  Jon sent people there to rescue the wildlings instead of going himself.)

[eHalcyon]

From the books, I get the sense that there are seasons within seasons.  When they say "Winter is coming", I think of that "Winter" like a mini Ice Age.  As I understand it, they get long periods of Winter and Summer of indeterminate length, but even within the Summer you get seasons more like what we see in our world (which they don't refer to as Winter or Summer, since those terms apply to the longer "seasons").  Winter is thus a major shift, so it makes sense that it would take a while for it to arrive. 

All throughout the book, you do get the ominous sense that it is almost arrived.  Summer officially ends in the second book (as marked by the maesters), and it's noted that it lasted 10 years, so probably Autumn could take a while as well.

So no, I didn't find it frustrating.  The background was set up properly and all the characters talk about the nature of the seasons appropriately so that I had the right expectations going in.

[AJD]

From the books, I get the sense that there are seasons within seasons.  When they say "Winter is coming", I think of that "Winter" like a mini Ice Age.  As I understand it, they get long periods of Winter and Summer of indeterminate length, but even within the Summer you get seasons more like what we see in our world (which they don't refer to as Winter or Summer, since those terms apply to the longer "seasons").

As far as I can tell, this is a widespread fan theory with little to no support in the text itself.

[eHalcyon]

From the books, I get the sense that there are seasons within seasons.  When they say "Winter is coming", I think of that "Winter" like a mini Ice Age.  As I understand it, they get long periods of Winter and Summer of indeterminate length, but even within the Summer you get seasons more like what we see in our world (which they don't refer to as Winter or Summer, since those terms apply to the longer "seasons").

As far as I can tell, this is a widespread fan theory with little to no support in the text itself.

I never read this fan theory.  It's just the sense I got from the text.  Maybe I independently came up with this idea on my own based on nothing, but there must be something in the text that inspired the idea in me and other readers.  I do vaguely recall reading passages about summer snows and such.

[Voltaire]

The "Year of the False Spring" was a year of non-snowy winter that happened at some point. It's when one of the important tournaments in the backstory happened.

[Eevee]

I'm watching this from the beginning with a girl who hasn't seen it before, we got through the first 8 episodes yesterday.

Man was the first season good.

[silverspawn]

I'm watching this from the beginning with a girl who hasn't seen it before, we got through the first 8 episodes yesterday.

Man was the first season good.

almost as good as the fifth!