Dominion Strategy Forum
Dominion => Dominion General Discussion => Topic started by: gman314 on June 25, 2013, 12:02:30 pm
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Yesterday, I played this (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130624/log.5143ebede4b0f496b6dd69dd.1372112822139.txt) game against Crablar. My main idea was to Forge basically everything, reveal Market Squares while I was at it, and then transition into stuff with Tournament. Meanwhile, Crablar opens Treasure Map/Market Square with the idea of activating Market Squares off of TM matches. I win 31-20 and he comments that his strategy was probably a bad idea, and asks for a rematch. He has a pro rating of about 5300, so I accept.
This leads to this gem (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130624/log.5143ebede4b0f496b6dd69dd.1372113468709.txt). I open with Sea Hag which he ignores all game and when I'm up 40-7 he resigns and asks to make it a best of 5 series. I have the time, so I accept.
Game 3 (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130624/log.5143ebede4b0f496b6dd69dd.1372114010406.txt) is an engine based on Border Village, Hunting Grounds, Bridge, and Golem with Treasury and Baker for support. We both go for it and despite his Potion opening, he causes a three-pile ending to win.
Finally, we play this game (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130624/log.5143ebede4b0f496b6dd69dd.1372114583578.txt) which again features Sea Hag. He ignores it, and opens Potion, getting 2 Transmutes but never a Possession while I keep giving him Curses. Thanks to trashing, he's able to end with only 2, but my Courtyard-BM approach with a Sea Hag and Lookout beats his interesting engine/Rebuild mix.
Now, where am I going with this? Well, two places. First, this is evidence to me that Goko's rating system sucks. I can't believe that a player can pass 5000 and still ignore Sea Hag, go for Treasure Map/Market Square, and open Potion on a Golem board, or a Transmute/Possession board. And this is not the first time I've seen this kind of play at what I thought was a high level. I won't say that I played any of those games perfectly; I accidentally trashed too much on a Forge play in the first one, and missed some opportunities for Border Village/other stuff in the third. (And those are just the mistakes I noticed). That being said, you'd think that by the time you get to 5000 you at least have basic opening strategy down.
Secondly, some strategy advice. I would have thought that it would be advice for beginners, but it turns out that it's advice for players with ratings up to about 5000. So, three things come to mind from this game which may be useful to players of all skill levels. One: Don't base Market Square on a one-time trash. It's just not a good idea. Two: $3P is a value which you miss about 30% of the time (IIRC) on a Potion/Silver opening. Trying to get $4P on turn 3/4 is even harder and $6P is almost impossible. If the goal of your potion is to get a Golem or Possession, don't open with it. Three: Cursing is good. Really good. Even with trashing in the game, if you're trashing curses you aren't trashing your starting cards. You want to open with Cursing if you can and get it ASAP if you can't.
There, that's a bunch of ranting and rage which I needed to share, but which may or may not be of any interest to anyone.
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Also, I'm around level ~4000 but with what you're saying about this guy it seems I'm better than him... It's probably because I don't play much online.
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This post gives me hope that although I'm not a very good player, I could someday be rated with the best of them through dumb luck and Goko's eldritch rating system. (Or, you know, improving. But who wants to take the time for that?)
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If the dude resigns on me and then wants to play again, ain't happening.
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when I'm up 40-7 he resigns
That doesn't seem like a ragequit, more like a polite resignation. In many games, resigning when you know you're dead and not forcing the game to play out to the end is considered polite, depending on how long the rest of the game is expected to last. Not that you have to resign, I never resign, always hoping my opponent will have a rapid-onset case of stupid, but it's standard practice in chess, for example.
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And here was me thinking that everyone above 5000 knew that Sea Hag just isn't very good against Rebuild.
The Potion has to be the real mistake. I doubt that Rebuild/Transmute is a thing (Transmute is just going to be too slow gaining Duchies, as you have to fiddle with a Copper twice to turn it into a Duchy). If he wants Rebuild/Golem, he should open Potion/Courtyard; even so, that sounds worse than just straight Rebuild, too much setup time. Since all the Potion cards are terminal, that also makes his Woodcutter worse than Silver.
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Don't base Treasure Map on a one-time trash. It's just not a good idea.
I assume you mean, "Don't base Market Square on a one-time trash."
And here was me thinking that everyone above 5000 knew that Sea Hag just isn't that good against Rebuild.
To be fair, it is a Shelter game, so Rebuild isn't an automatic buy.
EDIT: Also, I can see how someone might try ignoring Sea Hag in that second game. It's got lots of options for dealing with Curses, including Gardens, Junk Dealer, and Vault. Of course, a better plan would be to get in on the cursing and then transition to one of those strategies, especially with no other great openers at $3 or $4 (Remodel does not cut it).
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Hilariously, Market Square/Treasure Map is pretty much equally hard to collide as Treasure Map/Treasure Map.
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I've had people with 5000+ ratings open potion for only possession *multiple times* (and actually got it once on the first shuffle thanks to a soothsayer play and oodles of luck, but anyway I won without much trouble); randomly buy duchy as the first green card of a pretty normal-looking game, then follow it up by buying duchy or estate at virtually every opportunity, allowing me to piledrive provinces; uh, yeah some other stuff which is bad but not crazy. I have some of these on video, too, but man I'm not mostly releasing those (the one where I beat a first shuffle possession, ok, I think this makes a point on how possession isn't the end of the world) because it's both boring and a form of public shaming there's no need to subject them to. Not that I am trying to say that you are in any way in the wrong for posting this. But yes, your point about 'people can get rated this high doing that?' is, I think, a good one. Makes me wonder how they get there, because usually the players around there aren't (IMO) great, but well, at least quite competent.
I also find myself ignoring Sea Hag increasingly more often nowadays, but of course it's something you have to have a number of reasons to avoid, and not something you need reasons to get.
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Don't base Treasure Map on a one-time trash. It's just not a good idea.
I assume you mean, "Don't base Market Square on a one-time trash."
Yes.
And here was me thinking that everyone above 5000 knew that Sea Hag just isn't that good against Rebuild.
To be fair, it is a Shelter game, so Rebuild isn't an automatic buy.
Yeah, I considered going for Rebuild, but with Shelters I decided against. If I were planning to go for Rebuild, I would have probably opened Silver/Silver, but as it is, I like Sea Hag/Silver. Also, the thing with any Sifting/Trashing vs. Curses argument is that if you're Sifting/Trashing Curses, you aren't Sifting/Trashing other cards. Even with Rebuild, you're sifting over Curses, but you still need to draw your Rebuilds. I think that along with Shelters, Rebuild is avoidable on this board because of Lookout and Sea Hag. If the Rebuild player never gets a Sea Hag, then his one Lookout can only keep his deck size in place against Sea Hag, while the Sea Hag player can use a Lookout to speed up his deck. (Without Rebuild, the SH player would end up playing SH more often as his deck got smaller and the Rebuilder's Lookout would come up less as his deck got bigger, but with Rebuild this effect isn't that noticeable because of all the cycling.)
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Hilariously, Market Square/Treasure Map is pretty much equally hard to collide as Treasure Map/Treasure Map.
Huh, I never considered buying a Treasure Maps in order to trash them individually to activate Market Square. It's a cool little trick, but almost certainly not practical.
Dude should have taken advantage of the Hovel/Market Square trick if he wanted an early Gold.
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Now, where am I going with this? Well, two places. First, this is evidence to me that Goko's rating system sucks.
Yes, Goko's rating system is abysmal when it comes to accuracy. Players are already in general placing low value on the 'meaningfulness' of the ratings by how they round.. i.e. you described the player as rated ~5300, or in short the numbers after the hundreds column don't mean anything. The reality is Goko's implementation is whole lot less accurate than that. I'd estimate the system as adequately 'meaningful' at the level of ~ +/- 1000 or so. So a rating of 5300 could be a player of 4300, or a player of 6300. i.e. it's probably safe to assume that a player of rating 5300 is a statistically-significant-amount better than a player of rating 4300, but that's about as much as can be determined from the ratings. Personally, I'd reduce the Goko rating system to a 100 point scale, for starters. :P
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when I'm up 40-7 he resigns
That doesn't seem like a ragequit, more like a polite resignation. In many games, resigning when you know you're dead and not forcing the game to play out to the end is considered polite, depending on how long the rest of the game is expected to last. Not that you have to resign, I never resign, always hoping my opponent will have a rapid-onset case of stupid, but it's standard practice in chess, for example.
Yeah, that's the kind of resign I thought of it as.
I've had people with 5000+ ratings open potion for only possession *multiple times* (and actually got it once on the first shuffle thanks to a soothsayer play and oodles of luck, but anyway I won without much trouble); randomly buy duchy as the first green card of a pretty normal-looking game, then follow it up by buying duchy or estate at virtually every opportunity, allowing me to piledrive provinces; uh, yeah some other stuff which is bad but not crazy. I have some of these on video, too, but man I'm not mostly releasing those (the one where I beat a first shuffle possession, ok, I think this makes a point on how possession isn't the end of the world) because it's both boring and a form of public shaming there's no need to subject them to. Not that I am trying to say that you are in any way in the wrong for posting this.
Yeah, this isn't intended as a public shaming, but if Crablar sees this and wants it taken down, I'll replace the first post with "Fluffy Monkeys." The intention of this is to just express my frustration with the things I see at the level I play at. I am in no way even saying that Crablar is a bad player. It's totally possible that he got the rating he has because he is indeed a good player and just had an unlucky/experimental day yesterday. And maybe every time I see something like this, it is just people in experimental moods. I know I've basically thrown games by thinking "I can beat Ambassador/Sea Hag/Possession." Maybe I shouldn't rage at this, but I feel that it's come up enough that I'm not just getting experimental days. And hey, I don't own any cards, so maybe I shouldn't be complaining.
But yes, your point about 'people can get rated this high doing that?' is, I think, a good one. Makes me wonder how they get there, because usually the players around there aren't (IMO) great, but well, at least quite competent.
Yes, this is the main point I was trying to make. Being a 5000-5500 player myself (depending on the day and the opponents I find) I feel that this rating level should see players of a caliber similar to myself. Maybe I'm underrated, but I'm not sure that's the case.
I also find myself ignoring Sea Hag increasingly more often nowadays, but of course it's something you have to have a number of reasons to avoid, and not something you need reasons to get.
Yeah, Sea Hag is in the class of cards which I need a reason to avoid, rather than the class which I need a reason to get. But I find it hard to completely ignore Cursers like that.
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Here's a Rebuild game where I ignore Sea Hag. It's also against crablar, this time he was the one with the Sea Hag.
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130625/log.5143ebede4b0f496b6dd69dd.1372167955472.txt (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130625/log.5143ebede4b0f496b6dd69dd.1372167955472.txt)
I open Woodcutter/Silver, buy Rebuild and Silver on the first shuffle, and am lucky to buy two more Rebuilds on turns 5 and 6; however, I am unlucky to get Silver hit by Sea Hag on turn 4, then Rebuild hit on turn 6, then Silver again on turn 8. I also find myself taking a Province on turn 7, which slows me down a little on the Duchy split since I name Province thereafter until the Duchies are out. Still, it was a comfortable win, he gave me five Curses in total, but I was ahead enough to just buy more Estates and empty the Province pile.
I think I would still go for Rebuild and ignore Sea Hag if it was a Shelters game.
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I think that along with Shelters, Rebuild is avoidable on this board because of Lookout and Sea Hag. If the Rebuild player never gets a Sea Hag, then his one Lookout can only keep his deck size in place against Sea Hag, while the Sea Hag player can use a Lookout to speed up his deck.
It could be fun to play a match against you on this board, where I take Rebuild and you take Sea Hag. I doubt I would even bother with Lookout.
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I think that along with Shelters, Rebuild is avoidable on this board because of Lookout and Sea Hag. If the Rebuild player never gets a Sea Hag, then his one Lookout can only keep his deck size in place against Sea Hag, while the Sea Hag player can use a Lookout to speed up his deck.
It could be fun to play a match against you on this board, where I take Rebuild and you take Sea Hag. I doubt I would even bother with Lookout.
I was just about to offer you the same match. If gman isn't available, let me know and I'll fill in.
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If either of you have cards, I'll play.
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Meet in Outpost?
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If either of you have cards, I'll play.
I just created the set. I'm in Workshop.
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OK, now in Outpost.
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Here's a game (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130625/log.50675f6afca284ca61206e88.1372182988806.txt)on the same board where LastFootnote beats me 25-24. He goes for Hunting Party/Sea Hag while I try Rebuild, possibly sub-optimally. It's close, and my Rebuild play could likely be improved, but I still like Sea Hag.
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My Sea Hag play could be a lot better, too. When Warfreak posted his game report, I thought, "What? He only gave you 5 Curses? He should have bought 2 Sea Hags!" Really, I'd probably be better off with one Sea Hag and a mess of Hunting Parties. Maybe a Possession, but that's a risky call.
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Going for Rebuilds, I would open Silver/Woodcutter. Lookout doesn't help me buy Rebuilds or Duchies, and I really just don't care about the Curses; in the game, Lookout is already a liability for you at turn 10, having to topdeck a Duchy for your next turn. You manage to trash three Curses in total, but at the cost of buying fewer Rebuilds in the opening, and therefore not playing it as early and often as possible. On turn 5, why do you buy a Duchy, of course it's better to buy another Rebuild - this is the biggest mistake, for sure. At turn 8, I would buy Estate over Silver, to avoid that situation at turn 10 where you don't have any more Estates to Rebuild. On turns 15 and 16, you can buy Estates; you have a lead, and piling out on Estates, Duchies and Curses is probably the fastest way to end the game. Still, after all that, you only lost by one point.
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Possession is actually very interesting for the non-mirror, especially if you can play it reliably with a Hunting Party stack; a Rebuild play for you guarantees a free Province, whereas for the Rebuild player, it can only net 2VP or 3VP.
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Going for Rebuilds, I would open Silver/Woodcutter. Lookout doesn't help me buy Rebuilds or Duchies, and I really just don't care about the Curses; in the game, Lookout is already a liability for you at turn 10, having to topdeck a Duchy for your next turn. You manage to trash three Curses in total, but at the cost of buying fewer Rebuilds in the opening, and therefore not playing it as early and often as possible. On turn 5, why do you buy a Duchy, of course it's better to buy another Rebuild - this is the biggest mistake, for sure. At turn 8, I would buy Estate over Silver, to avoid that situation at turn 10 where you don't have any more Estates to Rebuild. On turns 15 and 16, you can buy Estates; you have a lead, and piling out on Estates, Duchies and Curses is probably the fastest way to end the game. Still, after all that, you only lost by one point.
On turn 10, I really should have played Lookout before Rebuild because I knew there was a Curse there. On turn 5, I bought a Duchy because I thought that I wanted cards to Rebuild before getting another Rebuild.
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I think generally you should not buy any Duchies until your opponent will empty them before you get a chance to play Rebuild. At that point in the game, you don't even want to Rebuild Duchies, since having a Province will slow down your Rebuilding of Estates, leaving you with fewer options later. (An empty Duchy pile, as early in the game as possible, gives you opportunities to pile out with a lead). You won't run out of Rebuild targets, it will be a long time before you can't afford an Estate; anyway, you even still have that Overgrown Estate.
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OK, Warfreak, how about putting your money where your mouth is? Shall we play it out in Outpost? :D
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OK, I'm there.
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OK, I'm there.
I'm also there now.
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http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130625/log.50675f6afca284ca61206e88.1372189142260.txt (http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20130625/log.50675f6afca284ca61206e88.1372189142260.txt)
Well, I was about the end the game with a win... I think we can safely say that it wasn't so much the Sea Hag! I had passed two turns, getting through all of my junk, and then found three Rebuilds in one hand. Unfortunately, but very dramatically, that was the turn I was Possessed, and LastFootnote used my deck to triple-Province for the win. Well played to him, anyway.
Posession looks like a pretty good counter to Rebuild, I think the Sea Hag mainly served as a way to slow me down long enough for that to come through.
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I think I may have to revise my stance on Rebuild vs. Sea Hag. I'd failed to take into account how Rebuild just breezes right past that Curse you leave on top of your opponent's deck. I'm not certain Rebuild would stand up to most of the other cursers on a Shelter board. I guess that's an experiment for another time!
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From my play so far on Goko, I'm finding that players who are relatively strong but have no concept of opening theory are a fairly common segment of the population. I'm actually okay with this--among the many lessons I've learned is that the opening is not the be-all and end-all of Dominion. More than once a player has put himself well behind early and then outplayed me later.
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From my play so far on Goko, I'm finding that players who are relatively strong but have no concept of opening theory are a fairly common segment of the population. I'm actually okay with this--among the many lessons I've learned is that the opening is not the be-all and end-all of Dominion. More than once a player has put himself well behind early and then outplayed me later.
Do you have examples? I find it hard to comprehend. If a player is strong enough to put together and carry through a cohesive strategy, surely they would be able to use their opening buys to forward that strategy.
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I got to 4000 in about 5 games, 2 of which against bots. I don't hold rating at Goko relevant at all. ;D