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[JaketheBaseballGod22]

Also your not my top proirty to make a case so it will not be immediately.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

That's not my case. A basic synopsis is that you have completely changed your play style almost like you got advice from possible partners (Awa and asher) on how to play a certain way as well as  how you have not played like any other new player I've seen possibly from some coaching.

This is what you said:

Vote: TWM What happened over night? I say he got some advice from his scum buddies because he has completely turned around his play style.

I asked you to expand. You said this:

Yeah but yours has gone from learning and making solid points to just casting out random non helpful remarks and starting fights instead of helping like you were early D-1 and making cases as well as telling us who you think is scum.

and

Yeah it should change your play you should start dropping cases on your scum reads like i'm going to do in the next few days not the previously mentioned stuff.

saying that compared to Day1 I have changed my play style from learning and making solid points and that I should be making cases and telling scum reads. And you say that I was told by scum partners to make these changes. So they told me to stop learning and making solid point and to instead be unhelpful and get into fights? Are you serious? What scum mates say: stop being helpful and instead try and get under people's skin so they will want to vote for you?

And look, I was already making cases and telling scum reads Day1, and aside from this discussion with you certainly haven't picked any fights or been unhelpful.

You don't know what you are talking about and are making it up as you go along in a panic because I have been scum-reading you.

[schadd]

Vote Count 2.1

faust (2): ashersky, mcmcsalot
JaketheBaseballGod22 (2): EFHW, The_Wine_Merchant
The_Wine_Merchant (1): JaketheBaseballGod22
mcmcsalot (1): faust

Not voting (4): Awaclus, Joseph2302, Roadrunner7671, gkrieg13

With 10 alive, it takes 6 to lynch. Day 2 ends Jan. 16th at 12pm forum time

[JaketheBaseballGod22]

Alright so this is a case on awaclus

Ok so awa starts the game with some rvs and not a ton of posting which is not weird but then the joseph wagon starts and that's when things get fun.

Oh you have an actual list too. Vote: Joseph

So this is his vote on Joseph where he makes fun of his reads list

Can't we just lynch Joseph already? That way we could start playing the xkcd game right away.

So then here he try's to push Joseph's lynch and kind of being dismissive to the game. (also could be hoping for a quick mislynch( Happy that didn't happen to our PR))

If you don't want to play this game, then don't

I want to play this game and I want to play the xkcd game and I want to lynch you in this game because you're scum. Lynching you would accomplish all of those goals, so it would be great.

So here he is again dismissive of this game and again hoping for a quick mislynch .

So then comes the whole soft claiming debacle.

That depends. If we're sure that Joseph is scum, we can lynch him regardless of his claim, so that the town UB doesn't have to claim.

So at first when i was making a robz case I was looking at this as it was a robz scum tell but at the end of D-1 and over the night I was thinking about it and the more i thought about it the more it looked like awa was intentionally fake soft claiming to try to get Joseph lynched D-1. What i realized was that robz is too good of a player to miss a soft claim even when the rest of us did.

The Robz lynch was fantastic -- the best possible mislynch.  VT is the best role to have to lose, Robz is too dangerous to leave alive if he's not an IC, it gave us a lot of fantastic interactions at the end.

Anyone decrying the lynch as bad is bad.

Also, vote: faust

See even asher say's so. I also read some of awa's games to pass the time and saw that awa could pull this off and if i was scum i would try to do this too because it's a really smart scum play. With that alone i think he should be lynched but let's look at some other things he's done as the game went on too.

Okay. I thought it was pretty clear that Awaclus was secretly soft-claiming UB--that was the purpose of my exchange with him earlier. That's why I kept my vote on Joseph.

Since Awaclus is voting for me, it seems that's not the case.

Vote: Awaclus for the false implication.

I thought you were secretly soft-claiming UB! That's why I voted for you because it started to look like it would be better to have you claim after all.

So after a while robz confess's to thinking that awa was soft claiming Ub but instead of pushing it off as a misunderstanding he trys to pin the whole debacle on robz( Another confirmed town) therefore making robz look like scum even though he wasn't.

Read Replies number 342 through 354.

This is post 338

That depends. If we're sure that Joseph is scum, we can lynch him regardless of his claim, so that the town UB doesn't have to claim.

This is post 342

There's only one UB, claiming it would be terrible scum play. It means Joseph is telling the truth (unless he royally screwed up and gets counterclaimed).

This is post 354

You know, I think there's a good chance Joseph thought he was going down anyway and just wanted to out the UB. Let's not give him the luxury of that. Vote: Joseph

Like I said, I wasn't paying attention.

So then after the body decides with robz on this matter awa takes a crack at another defense to push it away from him by saying that he wasn't paying attention to the game which is why he thought robz was soft claiming. What a ton of crap. Shown by the detail in some of his earlier posts where he lays out specific post numbers he was clearly paying attention and was now trying to push a failed scheme onto a excuse.

Now this redirect keeps up for a few pages when we get this.

I think gkrieg/Awaclus is a good place to look for scum.

Gkrieg is definitely a better place to look for scum than me.

and this

Because I'm not scum.

Now here he trys ANOTHER EXCUSE. This time he try's to deflect the towns attention onto another player in Big G and unfortunately it works. But this clearly shows a pattern of excuses of why he is not town even though the evidence shows he is.

Now he doesn't post for days after that because he was trying to not bring anymore attention onto himself and let other town players get lynched. He doesn't come back until after robz is being lynched where he then proceeds to heavily push a robz lynch.

But then oh my he does something great. HE CLAIMS!!!  He then claims a 1 shot roleblocker. Now I believe that this is a false attempt to again establish himself as a town Pr. Also the claim is easy to claim as scum becasue you can just say you haven't used the shot yet and he does do exactly that in D-2.

Vote Count 1.11

Robz888 (4): The_Wine_Merchant, ashersky, gkrieg13, Awaclus
Awaclus (4): Joseph2302, JaketheBaseballGod22, Calamitas, Robz888
gkrieg13 (2): EFHW, faust
faust (1): mcmcsalot

Not Voting (1): Roadrunner7671

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Jan. 7th at 12:00 pm forum time. This is in 30 minutes.

In going back and reviewing I feel like this is a fairly important moment. Especially if, as faust says, mafia wouldn't have really cared about trying to lynch a claimed VT. Because there was a claimed PR. If mafia wanted to try and lynch a claimed PR (unless Awaclus is mafia in which, they would have obviously tried to avoid it which bears worth looking at), wouldn't they have tried to go down that road?

I actually think Mafia wouldn't lynch a claimed PR there, just because they knew my claim was true. It's easier to mislynch someone else.

Where did you claim?

In this thread, when there was like an hour left and I was the biggest wagon. Too lazy to look that post up, but for reference, I'm still the 1-shot Roleblocker. It's probably better if I don't claim whether or not I've used the shot yet though, right?

Here he shows how he can't confirm that he is the 1 shot Roleblocker.

Vote Count 1.11

Robz888 (4): The_Wine_Merchant, ashersky, gkrieg13, Awaclus
Awaclus (4): Joseph2302, JaketheBaseballGod22, Calamitas, Robz888
gkrieg13 (2): EFHW, faust
faust (1): mcmcsalot

Not Voting (1): Roadrunner7671

With 12 alive, it takes 7 to lynch. Day 1 ends at Jan. 7th at 12:00 pm forum time. This is in 30 minutes.

In going back and reviewing I feel like this is a fairly important moment. Especially if, as faust says, mafia wouldn't have really cared about trying to lynch a claimed VT. Because there was a claimed PR. If mafia wanted to try and lynch a claimed PR (unless Awaclus is mafia in which, they would have obviously tried to avoid it which bears worth looking at), wouldn't they have tried to go down that road?

I actually think Mafia wouldn't lynch a claimed PR there, just because they knew my claim was true. It's easier to mislynch someone else.

Then theirs this because theirs nothing like a little reasserting that you a town right?

In conclusion I believe that with all this evidence that awa should be the clear lynch choice and we should therefore lynch him.

[ashersky]

You do realize that Awaclus's claim is a stupid one to lie about, right?

[faust]

Also in the interest of rereading you all should add shuffle it usernames asap!

I will say this YET AGAIN.  Extra fields are not required.  Just use "Post by: username" in the find field.  It filters perfectly.

But the print screen is ugly!

[faust]

The Robz lynch was fantastic -- the best possible mislynch.  VT is the best role to have to lose, Robz is too dangerous to leave alive if he's not an IC, it gave us a lot of fantastic interactions at the end.

Anyone decrying the lynch as bad is bad.

Also, vote: faust

So if the Robz lynch is so great, and I made it happen, why vote for me?

You do realize that I can't be Robz' partner?

[faust]

Jake made a case against someone (Robz?).

I forgot about that.

His case, http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16687.msg667320#msg667320, makes me trust his supposed anger even less, when initially he was a big part of the wagon and lynch even if he wasn't actually on it at the end.

Jake is being the guy that is mad when he rear ends someone after tailgating too closely, to use another roadrage reference.

People can change their minds, especially on D1. I don't see how this is a point against Jake.

[faust]

Let's see what mcmc has on me. Hoping I don't screw up the quotes.

I think Joseph is town by now. This whole thing is on a different scale than what I expect from scum!Joseph.

EFHW is a lot less scummy than McGarn was. I don't think I want to vote there anymore. What else do we have? I do not want to vote for Jake. Calamitas will probably continue to do nothing today and then spend D2 talking about probabilities, which is really annoying, but I don't think I can do anything about it. Robz and mcmc are non-factors in my head, which is weird. Awaclus is a mild town read.

Vote: Robz

This is the original point which I felt joseph was very scummy and I think Faust's reasoning for finding him towny is a scummy one. It's not what you expect but its not that you actually have reasons to find him towny.

Do I need to understand this? If someone behaves differently from how I expect them to as scum, then for sure that is a sign of them being town. This is how basically any town read is formed.

[...]

You know, there is actually a lot of sense in this.

Vote: Joseph this is L-1.

Now when town is really getting close to lynching town you decide its better to just lynch joseph instead of get town cred by defending him.

So scum!me thought we would get a lynch like what? Two days into the game? This is stupid. Clearly I thought Winey made a good point and acted accordingly. I would probably be more consistent as scum, because it's harder to flip around your reads then.

The issue with lurker lynches: Yes they are somewhat random. But they will still be somewhat random on D2, D3 etc., since lurkers won't give much to determine their alignment. It's better to have active players in the game that can be read. A lurker is always a blank and needs to be lynched at some point unless the game goes really well.

This is sort of a reference post. Faust explains here the issue with lurker lynches(I have said the same thing and agree) which demonstrates he understands the need for a quality lynch.

Not sure where this is going, but you clearly did not understand what I was saying. This explains why lurker lynches are sometimes necessary, not why they are bad.

Interesting. Did not read everything... and will not until tomorrow. But I don't think I need to unvote.

This is similar to what EFHW did, it is in reference to the robz wagon which I think should have disappeared much faster than it did after robz explaination.

Please explain your scum narrative for this.

Caught up on the whole Robz wagon.

It's pretty clear to me that Robz really thought Awaclus was softclaiming UB.

unvote and I'm gonna have to take a serious look at that wagon.

So yes you agree that it was pretty clear what Robz was doing but you waited a little while with robz at L-1 before deciding to read. (This is not a huge deal but it doesn't make me feel any townier on you)

Yes. I had other things to do. But as scum, why make a post at all? It would only incriminate me if Robz flips town.

faust, you FOS'd gkrieg and Awaclus, but didn't vote anywhere.

Huh, you're right. This should be amended. vote: gkrieg

You have not made that case yet, though you have no problem voting.

Yes. So what?

Here is my big issue, I have explained at huge lenght how this system of narrowing the lynch pool provides a similarly safe and unhelpful lynch for scum as a lurker lynch does. Faust totally understood the lurker problem but goes along with this because it is favoring him.

So ultimately this boils down to, you're voting for me because of a theory disagreement. I still don't think Jake's suggestion caused anything bad, and have not seen any evidence provided that it did. It may not have been necessary, but I liked that Jake took a more active and pushing role in the game and wanted to encourage that approach.

This case is a lot of nothingness.

[Awaclus]

So this is his vote on Joseph where he makes fun of his reads list

Of course I would make fun of his reads list. It was D1, hardly after RVS. There's no way anyone could have had actual reads at that point, so the most likely explanation was that his reads were fabricated.

So then here he try's to push Joseph's lynch and kind of being dismissive to the game. (also could be hoping for a quick mislynch( Happy that didn't happen to our PR))

Do you seriously think I would say that if I was scum hoping for a mislynch? Besides, I wasn't being dismissive, I was just making a joke.

So here he is again dismissive of this game and again hoping for a quick mislynch .

Do you seriously think I would say that if I was scum hoping for a mislynch? Besides, I wasn't being dismissive, I was just making a joke.

So at first when i was making a robz case I was looking at this as it was a robz scum tell but at the end of D-1 and over the night I was thinking about it and the more i thought about it the more it looked like awa was intentionally fake soft claiming to try to get Joseph lynched D-1. What i realized was that robz is too good of a player to miss a soft claim even when the rest of us did.

That's just confirmation bias — the more you wanted it to look like I was softclaiming, the more it started to look like I was softclaiming.

See even asher say's so. I also read some of awa's games to pass the time and saw that awa could pull this off and if i was scum i would try to do this too because it's a really smart scum play. With that alone i think he should be lynched but let's look at some other things he's done as the game went on too.

What exactly? The "soft claim" thing that almost got me lynched and forced me to reveal my role? No, that was not a smart play. It wouldn't have been a smart scum play, and it wasn't a smart town play. (In general it would have been a smart town play simply because of how scummy Joseph was, but then I would have had to keep track of people reacting to Joseph's claim, and I didn't do that)

So after a while robz confess's to thinking that awa was soft claiming Ub but instead of pushing it off as a misunderstanding he trys to pin the whole debacle on robz( Another confirmed town) therefore making robz look like scum even though he wasn't.

Well, what should I have done, lied instead of telling the truth?

So then after the body decides with robz on this matter awa takes a crack at another defense to push it away from him by saying that he wasn't paying attention to the game which is why he thought robz was soft claiming. What a ton of crap. Shown by the detail in some of his earlier posts where he lays out specific post numbers he was clearly paying attention and was now trying to push a failed scheme onto a excuse.

Of course I would defend myself. Defending yourself is the #1 most important thing to do when you're town, especially when you're a town PR. I have never laid out a single specific post number in my entire life, because it takes so much more effort to read a post where someone just lays out post numbers than it takes to write a post where you actually quote the relevant posts. For that same reason, I actually didn't read the post numbers laid out by Robz.

Now here he trys ANOTHER EXCUSE. This time he try's to deflect the towns attention onto another player in Big G and unfortunately it works. But this clearly shows a pattern of excuses of why he is not town even though the evidence shows he is.

Of course I would defend myself. Defending yourself is the #1 most important thing to do when you're town, especially when you're a town PR. I also wasn't trying to deflect the attention to gkrieg, that was all faust's doing.

Now he doesn't post for days after that because he was trying to not bring anymore attention onto himself and let other town players get lynched. He doesn't come back until after robz is being lynched where he then proceeds to heavily push a robz lynch.

Alternative explanation: I didn't post for days because I was paying more attention to things that weren't this game, and there wasn't anything noteworthy going on in this game. Then we started to approach the deadline so I started to prioritize this game more. I wasn't really heavily pushing a Robz lynch either, I was just pushing any lynch at all and Robz seemed like the most likely one to happen at that point.

But then oh my he does something great. HE CLAIMS!!!  He then claims a 1 shot roleblocker. Now I believe that this is a false attempt to again establish himself as a town Pr. Also the claim is easy to claim as scum becasue you can just say you haven't used the shot yet and he does do exactly that in D-2.

I have not said that I haven't used the shot yet. I might or might not have used the shot.

Here he shows how he can't confirm that he is the 1 shot Roleblocker.

No, that's where I was simply asking for advice on how to play given that I am the 1-shot Roleblocker, because I can actually do that now that I've claimed. I don't know how you think I could confirm that I'm the 1-shot Roleblocker anyway; however, it will become confirmed later in the game if there's a mass claim.

Then theirs this because theirs nothing like a little reasserting that you a town right?

*there's

Again, what should I have done, claimed SK like Joseph instead of telling the truth?

[ashersky]

You do realize that I can't be Robz' partner?

Thank for confirming you are not the same alignment as Robz.  I like my vote right where it is.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Jake made a case against someone (Robz?).

I forgot about that.

His case, http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16687.msg667320#msg667320, makes me trust his supposed anger even less, when initially he was a big part of the wagon and lynch even if he wasn't actually on it at the end.

Jake is being the guy that is mad when he rear ends someone after tailgating too closely, to use another roadrage reference.

People can change their minds, especially on D1. I don't see how this is a point against Jake.

What it means is that he is at least partially culpable. Which means that the anger at everyone else just isn't as authentic as it should be mellowed by a sense of shared responsibility. it means the emotion in his opening statement at the start of day is even more likely to be fake.

[faust]

You do realize that I can't be Robz' partner?

Thank for confirming you are not the same alignment as Robz.  I like my vote right where it is.

You might want to start being useful at some point.

[faust]

Jake made a case against someone (Robz?).

I forgot about that.

His case, http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16687.msg667320#msg667320, makes me trust his supposed anger even less, when initially he was a big part of the wagon and lynch even if he wasn't actually on it at the end.

Jake is being the guy that is mad when he rear ends someone after tailgating too closely, to use another roadrage reference.

People can change their minds, especially on D1. I don't see how this is a point against Jake.

What it means is that he is at least partially culpable. Which means that the anger at everyone else just isn't as authentic as it should be mellowed by a sense of shared responsibility. it means the emotion in his opening statement at the start of day is even more likely to be fake.

I am afraid I have to burst your bubble... human emotions aren't typically as rational as you make them out to be.

[The_Wine_Merchant]

Jake made a case against someone (Robz?).

I forgot about that.

His case, http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16687.msg667320#msg667320, makes me trust his supposed anger even less, when initially he was a big part of the wagon and lynch even if he wasn't actually on it at the end.

Jake is being the guy that is mad when he rear ends someone after tailgating too closely, to use another roadrage reference.

People can change their minds, especially on D1. I don't see how this is a point against Jake.

What it means is that he is at least partially culpable. Which means that the anger at everyone else just isn't as authentic as it should be mellowed by a sense of shared responsibility. it means the emotion in his opening statement at the start of day is even more likely to be fake.

I am afraid I have to burst your bubble... human emotions aren't typically as rational as you make them out to be.

You don't have to tell me that. But do you really think jake was hop-stomping mad about a lynch that: 1. he initially wanted and pushed strongly for 2. Had occurred two real days prior and 3. wasn't all that bad of a lynch as he freely admitted after I called him on his fake emotion?

I feel like he wanted people to think he was really upset by the lynch. Why? Because he felt was partly responsible and felt that he needed to distance himself from it preemptively. Town, I think, doesn't see the need to create distance between the lynch and themselves. Town just want to move on and find the next person who is likely mafia.

[mcmcsalot]

You do realize that I can't be Robz' partner?

Thank for confirming you are not the same alignment as Robz.  I like my vote right where it is.

You might want to start being useful at some point.

But then you might find him scummy, shouldn't he be crazy with his opinions and force anti town plans and argue about things people say instead of give cases. I think he has made his reads clear and will continue to do so.

[mcmcsalot]

Jake made a case against someone (Robz?).

I forgot about that.

His case, http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16687.msg667320#msg667320, makes me trust his supposed anger even less, when initially he was a big part of the wagon and lynch even if he wasn't actually on it at the end.

Jake is being the guy that is mad when he rear ends someone after tailgating too closely, to use another roadrage reference.

People can change their minds, especially on D1. I don't see how this is a point against Jake.

What it means is that he is at least partially culpable. Which means that the anger at everyone else just isn't as authentic as it should be mellowed by a sense of shared responsibility. it means the emotion in his opening statement at the start of day is even more likely to be fake.

I am afraid I have to burst your bubble... human emotions aren't typically as rational as you make them out to be.

I am afraid to burst your bubble... players emotions and how they act/react to things are what town uses to form rational narratives for players alignments.

[faust]

You do realize that I can't be Robz' partner?

Thank for confirming you are not the same alignment as Robz.  I like my vote right where it is.

You might want to start being useful at some point.

But then you might find him scummy, shouldn't he be crazy with his opinions and force anti town plans and argue about things people say instead of give cases. I think he has made his reads clear and will continue to do so.

I personally don't know anything about ashersky's reads except he thinks I'm scum.

[faust]

Reread mcmc a bit, I don't think there are a lot of scum flags actually. Also his obsession with Jake's "3 people" suggestion was so annoying that I had to quit halfway through.

[faust]

I would still like to lynch gkrieg, but part of me also wants to lynch off the Robz wagon, which means either mcmc or RR. RR might be worth rereading at some point as well.

[ashersky]

Jake made a case against someone (Robz?).

I forgot about that.

His case, http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=16687.msg667320#msg667320, makes me trust his supposed anger even less, when initially he was a big part of the wagon and lynch even if he wasn't actually on it at the end.

Jake is being the guy that is mad when he rear ends someone after tailgating too closely, to use another roadrage reference.

People can change their minds, especially on D1. I don't see how this is a point against Jake.

What it means is that he is at least partially culpable. Which means that the anger at everyone else just isn't as authentic as it should be mellowed by a sense of shared responsibility. it means the emotion in his opening statement at the start of day is even more likely to be fake.

I am afraid I have to burst your bubble... human emotions aren't typically as rational as you make them out to be.

You might want to start being useful at some point.

[ashersky]

You do realize that I can't be Robz' partner?

Thank for confirming you are not the same alignment as Robz.  I like my vote right where it is.

You might want to start being useful at some point.

But then you might find him scummy, shouldn't he be crazy with his opinions and force anti town plans and argue about things people say instead of give cases. I think he has made his reads clear and will continue to do so.

I personally don't know anything about ashersky's reads except he thinks I'm scum.

I've made other reads known.  Namely Joseph, Awa, gkrieg.

I thought Calamitas was scum, not that it matters now.

Jake...man, that guy.  He's hard to read, which helps him as scum and hurts him as town.  Would lynch.

Faust you know.  Would also lynch RR. 

Wine is an interesting character.  Still waiting to see there.

[gkrieg13]

I would still like to lynch gkrieg, but part of me also wants to lynch off the Robz wagon, which means either mcmc or RR. RR might be worth rereading at some point as well.

Why do you still think I'm scum?

[faust]

I would still like to lynch gkrieg, but part of me also wants to lynch off the Robz wagon, which means either mcmc or RR. RR might be worth rereading at some point as well.

Why do you still think I'm scum?

Why would I have stopped thinking it?

[gkrieg13]

I would still like to lynch gkrieg, but part of me also wants to lynch off the Robz wagon, which means either mcmc or RR. RR might be worth rereading at some point as well.

Why do you still think I'm scum?

Why would I have stopped thinking it?

Well looking at how the wagons went down yesterday, I think I come out of it townier.  Plus, you have a long history of tunneling me when I'm town and getting us both killed.