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[Asper]

Very happy that Missy is a Time Lady, and completely fine with her being the Master. The only part of it I don't like is her earlier-episode comments that the Doctor is her "boyfriend" and her kissing the Doctor - look, if you're going to do Doctor/Master slash, have the guts to do it when the Master is still male. Waiting until she's conveniently female is grating, and more "Moffat being Moffat". That is, if they even go down that road. I have hope that these comments were just Mistress-esque madness and won't be dwelt on, which would be for the best.

YES. THIS. YES YES YES. On the one hand, I'm REALLY happy that we finally have a legit female Gallifreyan/Time Lady again and that there's been a male-to-female regeneration, but on the other, is Moffat seriously canonizing Doctor/Master now just because the Master is a woman? That just screams homophobia AND misogyny. Oh sure he'll make a lesbian couple as background characters and such but when it actually "matters", nope, no non-straights allowed. Like you, the least I can hope is that the story doesn't actually dwell on it. Also, I really want to know what the person in question's plans are...

I think it's pretty much in character for the Master (as i have come to know him from the reboot) to regard his new gender as a means of messing with the Doctor. I wouldn't expect a romance, if i was you.

[werothegreat]

I think it's pretty much in character for the Master (as i have come to know him from the reboot) to regard his new gender SEX as a means of messing with the Doctor. I wouldn't expect a romance, if i was you.

FTFY

[EFHW]

I think it's pretty much in character for the Master (as i have come to know him from the reboot) to regard his new gender SEX as a means of messing with the Doctor. I wouldn't expect a romance, if i was you.

FTFY

It's both, apparently.

[Asper]

I think it's pretty much in character for the Master (as i have come to know him from the reboot) to regard his new gender SEX as a means of messing with the Doctor. I wouldn't expect a romance, if i was you.

FTFY

It's both, apparently.

But he's right, at least gender wasn't really what i meant. I wasn't aware of the different meanings in english.

Also i was terribly disappointed with the last episode. "Dark Water" got me excited, but "Death in Heaven" let me down. Having that Child come back from the dead was not only a cheap story tool to wash Mr. Pink clean of guilt when he did something that can't be undone, it was also a statement that there really was a netherworld (how else should the boy get his body back). It wasn't even up to interpretation like Tennent's "Devil" was, so it feels really out of place for a sci fi show. Furthermore, the "Cyberman with a conscience" idea was feeling old, and why in the world did that dead soldier hold a speech? What is this, Lord of the Rings?

[Polk5440]

Also i was terribly disappointed with the last episode. "Dark Water" got me excited, but "Death in Heaven" let me down. Having that Child come back from the dead was not only a cheap story tool to wash Mr. Pink clean of guilt when he did something that can't be undone

What show have you been watching all these years? This happens ALL THE TIME in Doctor Who. MacGuffins are this show's calling card. What was impressive about this episode is that a character we care about did not use the MacGuffin on himself as the Doctor expected. Danny could have been saved, but chose not to be because he values different things than the Doctor (and Clara). That's a tension that has been there all season that's been nice to see.

What was cheap was having Missy be the Master. Totally unnecessary for the story they were trying to tell and makes the story looser than it otherwise could have been -- how did the Master escape the time lock but no one else? for example. I would be happy if they never mentioned the Master or Gallifray again.

I also did not like the authoritarian undertones to this episode. The Doctor was unable to give a satisfactory answer to why he should not have all that power. It was like someone who is comfortable with never-ending big government wrote the episode and was unable to find a satisfactory limiting principle, but knows there has to be one somewhere. I mean, come on, no mention that the cybermen were created against the will of the people in that monologue? That at least is easy.

Very good finale overall, though. It felt totally unlike any other season finale in the modern era, and that in and of itself is a huge accomplishment.

[Asper]

Also i was terribly disappointed with the last episode. "Dark Water" got me excited, but "Death in Heaven" let me down. Having that Child come back from the dead was not only a cheap story tool to wash Mr. Pink clean of guilt when he did something that can't be undone

What show have you been watching all these years? This happens ALL THE TIME in Doctor Who. MacGuffins are this show's calling card. What was impressive about this episode is that a character we care about did not use the MacGuffin on himself as the Doctor expected. Danny could have been saved, but chose not to be because he values different things than the Doctor (and Clara). That's a tension that has been there all season that's been nice to see.

Sure, those ass-pulled solutions come up a lot. I think my main concern is that it implies a lot (let's answer a spiritual question) while doing almost nothing for the story (Mr. P. is still dead, just now he's a martyr).

While i like the old stuff like Gallifray or the Master appearing from time to time (see what i did there?), i agree with you that Missy being the Master was completely irrelevant for the story. Could have been anybody. Not even the reason why there had to be a Time Lord/Lady behind the scheme were really good.

[werothegreat]

Best part of the episode:

What do you want for Christmas?

[Davio]

I was disappointed again.

Maybe it's just me.

In previous seasons when someone would die, I would be really shocked, like "they can't do that!"
I mean, it's not Game of Thrones where anyone could die at any moment.

In this episode, when the smart lady with the glasses died, I felt.. nothing.
When Danny died in the previous episode, I felt.. nothing.

Somehow this series has failed to make me part of the experience; I've never felt more detached from Dr. Who. Maybe it's Capaldi, probably it's wise ass Clara and almost certainly it's the flawed story lines.

I suddenly saw the problem clearly during the last episode. The Doctor fails to notice a Gallifreyan hard drive just buzzing around and some other giant details right under his nose. I like when the Doctor has to play the guessing game, because he just doesn't know (Time Heist was pretty good) but in this case, it was just awful.

And the Master was never really scary like in Last of the Time Lords.

So many missed opportunities and so little surprise. I mean, I would have been surprised if Danny had walked through that portal instead of the boy he shot! And if Gallifrey had really been there like the Master said. Oh well..

[Tables]

I've seen some people in the spoilers complain that the last two episodes were homophobic/sexist in some ways. I read that and kinds just thought 'lolwut?' Essentially that's an argument saying that because Missy/The Master is straight the series is being homophobic? What's the actual issue here? I've not seen anyone else complain about it, either.

The episode itself I felt was decent - it had some very good moments, but it also felt kind of... empty? Incomplete? The episode on the whole seemed very unmemorable, and not a huge amount really happened.

[Kuildeous]

I read that to mean that the "romance" between the Master (ignoring spoilers here because her identity is already known at this point; even I knew who she was going in, and I can normally avoid such spoilers) and the Doctor seemed to be out of the blue. Why is there a romance now when there were other opportunities when they were both men? And I can't disagree with that, but this series also just makes things up as it goes along, and I'm not surprised that certain elements come out of the blue. It's kind of like how the Star Wars prequels destroy the franchise's consistency. Why didn't Darth Vader recognize C3PO in Episode 4? Why didn't R2-D2 warn Luke about Vader? Why can't R2-D2 fly in Episode 4? The truth is because things were written later that contradict or muddy previous stories.

And yeah, Doctor Who is all about hey-Daleks-aren't-extinct-after-all. I'm sure that the Master will come back from the dead somehow. This kind of oversight is common because the writers years ago didn't consider that the Master would come back as a woman. Even if they did, they probably didn't think of throwing in "romance" (I agree that it's really her exerting control and throwing the Doctor off).

I think there are bigger things to worry about. Doctor Who has been pretty progressive, really. Captain Jack was quite a bold character. The show could do more, but it does a decent job of portraying positive LGBT characters.

That being said, I still wouldn't mind if the Doctor regenerated into Helen Mirren. That would be phenomenal.

[Voltaire]

The finale was quality TV, and not Doctor Who, really. Bad things happened. People lied and were disappointed. Everyone ended up sad. Reasonably well-written sad.

And that's not why I watch Doctor Who. Another reason, on top of all the rest, why this season was just awful overall.

(And Kuildeous has the right explanation on why flirty/kissing Master drove me up the wall, though they did choose "messing with the Doctor" and not "romance" in the part 2 and for that I was grateful)

Why did they even bring back inhaler girl? I was certain, when she talked about her sister in the 50th, she was related to Clara in some timey-wimey way. Seeing her back in the trailer had me certain. And they brought her back to...kill her? Man, in my head the finale was something great about the Master escaping Gallifrey/re-writing time in the 50th/explaining Clara/how-why the Doctor and Clara got out of his timestream/why the 12th+ Doctor wasn't in there/where Gallifrey is. And instead we got...a heartbreaking story about everyone being sad.

*phhhhhtttp*

[Beyond Awesome]

Honestly, I wasn't a fan of this finale. I feel like Moffat isn't sure what he is writing at times. Overall though, I liked this season. Still to this date, I haven't really liked any of Moffat's finales. He doesn't know how to tie loose ends.

[Davio]

[..]

That being said, I still wouldn't mind if the Doctor regenerated into Helen Mirren. That would be phenomenal.

That would indeed be awesome!

[Tables]

I read that to mean that the "romance" between the Master (ignoring spoilers here because her identity is already known at this point; even I knew who she was going in, and I can normally avoid such spoilers) and the Doctor seemed to be out of the blue. Why is there a romance now when there were other opportunities when they were both men?

Just a question, but when was there ever any romance? I remember there being one kiss, very much one way, and heck that wouldn't even have been out of character for the Master as a guy. That's not romance.

[Voltaire]

I read that to mean that the "romance" between the Master (ignoring spoilers here because her identity is already known at this point; even I knew who she was going in, and I can normally avoid such spoilers) and the Doctor seemed to be out of the blue. Why is there a romance now when there were other opportunities when they were both men?

Just a question, but when was there ever any romance? I remember there being one kiss, very much one way, and heck that wouldn't even have been out of character for the Master as a guy. That's not romance.

There was never any romance. There was always simmering sexual tension (with Simm's version) the whole time. Not really a big thing, but clearly there. (nothing with the Master, any gender, is ever going to be "romantic")

Which is why I groaned when Missy was revealed, because we'd previously seen Missy refer to the Doctor as her boyfriend, and I was worried they were going whole-hog now that the Master was female. Which they didn't do, thank goodness. The point is, if they had (which, again, they didn't), it would very much have had a sheen of homophobia.

Like most things Moffat does, it teetered on the edge of being terrible and avoided it.

[Tables]

Which is why I groaned when Missy was revealed, because we'd previously seen Missy refer to the Doctor as her boyfriend, and I was worried they were going whole-hog now that the Master was female. Which they didn't do, thank goodness. The point is, if they had (which, again, they didn't), it would very much have had a sheen of homophobia.

Again, why would this be homophobic? You're saying that if two straight characters of the same gender don't have a romantic relationship, but they do if they're of different genders then it's homophobic. Or is that not what you're saying?

[Voltaire]

Which is why I groaned when Missy was revealed, because we'd previously seen Missy refer to the Doctor as her boyfriend, and I was worried they were going whole-hog now that the Master was female. Which they didn't do, thank goodness. The point is, if they had (which, again, they didn't), it would very much have had a sheen of homophobia.

Again, why would this be homophobic? You're saying that if two straight characters of the same gender don't have a romantic relationship, but they do if they're of different genders then it's homophobic. Or is that not what you're saying?

I am saying, that Moffat would get...whatever the opposite of "benefit of the doubt" is...had he actually chosen to do a relationship-thing with the Doctor at the Master only after making the Master female. But he didn't.

I think the reason you're even seeing this mentioned in the first place is because the 2-part nature of the finale left everyone with just enough information to see Moffat being terrible in Part 2 (which he then wasn't).

If he had gone that route, it wouldn't be outright homophobic but it would be very fishy that two previously male characters, with a multi-hundred year relationship, suddenly have relationshippy stuff happen immediately after one of them becomes female and they're a "straight" couple.

Do you see what I'm saying?

EDIT: This post was made in good faith but seems to have struck a nerve with some. I was called biased here, but it wasn't explained, so I am confused. For now, see this post, which does a better job of talking about this topic. If this post is misguided, I'd like to learn why, because biases should be shed!

[EFHW]

I read that to mean that the "romance" between the Master (ignoring spoilers here because her identity is already known at this point; even I knew who she was going in, and I can normally avoid such spoilers) and the Doctor seemed to be out of the blue. Why is there a romance now when there were other opportunities when they were both men?

Just a question, but when was there ever any romance? I remember there being one kiss, very much one way, and heck that wouldn't even have been out of character for the Master as a guy. That's not romance.

yeah, I can't imagine the Dr. wanting a romantic relationship with the Master, but I can see the Master being obsessed with the doctor in a sexualized way, which apparently he and later she was. 

So do you think the Dr. killed the Master, or was she transported at just that moment?  I'm not feeling great about the Doctor killing him.  It feels completely wrong, in fact.

I thought sending the boy back was the right ending, even though I was sad for Clara that she lost Danny.  He'd been tormented by that memory, and had such clear convictions about right and wrong, I don't think he could have chosen himself over the boy.  It's also true that it doesn't make any sense plot-wise, which has happened to many times this season, I think.  For example, how will she have the great-grandson astronaut now?

[Voltaire]

For example, how will she have the great-grandson astronaut now?

1. Time can be rewritten. Completely acceptable, in my book.
2. Speculation that could be spoilers: A (common) fan theory is Clara is pregnant with their kid, which was what she was trying to tell him at the start of the finale (think about it - we don't actually know what Clara was going to say before he was hit), and she's leaving after the Christmas special. Whether that is true or not, Clara-leaves-after-the-Christmas-special is a rumor that appears to have previously-reliable sources backing it.

[Tables]

Do you see what I'm saying?

No... I really don't. Perhaps it depends on how Time Lord gender has been portrayed in the past, but I can't see the issue in terms of homophobia. It would seem bizarre in terms of character in general because of said history, though, regardless of gender.

[Galzria]

So do you think the Dr. killed the Master, or was she transported at just that moment?  I'm not feeling great about the Doctor killing him.  It feels completely wrong, in fact.

I'll answer your question without actually answering it. Is the Master "gone"? No, absolutely not. Had that been the "end" to the Master, there would've been absolutely no story-telling reason for Missy to actually BE the Master to begin with. There are 1,001 different other explanations that could've resolved that story arc and kept it 95% the same. The simple fact that Missy WAS the Master will mean more down the line - whether it's Missy herself coming back as the part, or somebody else.

[Polk5440]

whatever the opposite of "benefit of the doubt" is

I am blowing the dog whistle on this, Voltaire. I think you are reading way too much of your own biases into this show and it is making this thread less than enjoyable to read.

[Polk5440]

So do you think the Dr. killed the Master, or was she transported at just that moment?  I'm not feeling great about the Doctor killing him.  It feels completely wrong, in fact.

I'll answer your question without actually answering it. Is the Master "gone"? No, absolutely not. Had that been the "end" to the Master, there would've been absolutely no story-telling reason for Missy to actually BE the Master to begin with. There are 1,001 different other explanations that could've resolved that story arc and kept it 95% the same. The simple fact that Missy WAS the Master will mean more down the line - whether it's Missy herself coming back as the part, or somebody else.

Hmmm. That's an interesting thought. I just thought it was unnecessary fan service, but this could make some sense.

Regarding what happened at the end, my understanding was that it was NOT the Doctor who shot the Master, it was the Cyberman. The Doctor was going to shoot the Master to save Clara the guilt, but right before he was going to shoot, a blue beam from off screen hits the Master. The blue haze the Master was "disolved" in looked slightly different than how a standard Cyberman shot would have looked, so it leaves it possibly ambiguous whether the Master was killed or beamed out right before the shot.

[Asper]

Do you see what I'm saying?

No... I really don't. Perhaps it depends on how Time Lord gender has been portrayed in the past, but I can't see the issue in terms of homophobia. It would seem bizarre in terms of character in general because of said history, though, regardless of gender.

I agree that the story is not homophobic. Still i can see why somebody who only saw the first part and was not familiar enough with the Master being a manipulative jerk could draw the conclusion there had to be a sexual attraction. My opinion still is that being female just gave the Master the chance to throw the Dr off guard. Anyhow, for those who see a sexual element (and just now as opposed to earlier characterizations), it must seem odd that Moffat would let it happen just as soon as the Master became female.

You don't have to share an opinion to see how somebody could arrive at it.

[Voltaire]

Do you see what I'm saying?

No... I really don't. Perhaps it depends on how Time Lord gender has been portrayed in the past, but I can't see the issue in terms of homophobia. It would seem bizarre in terms of character in general because of said history, though, regardless of gender.

Okay, I think I figured out what's going on.

Mine is about how it would come across to audience members in the real world.

Yours is about in-universe repercussions. Where I agree, there shouldn't be anything, really.

That clears things up in my head, at least.