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[EFHW]

I agree with the e vote though. To me it makes sense to lynch in the sets of either {ADK, e} or of the people who voted yes. e is in both. I'll gladly change my vote to e if anyone wants to join in.

I don't follow your reasoning here, about voting in {ADK,e} or about voting for the people who said yes. Can you say how you get to that?

[jotheonah]

Just did a quick re-read. I have a case, coming in the next post, but just leaving these tidbits here first.

THINGS PEOPLE SAID ABOUT VOTING BEFORE THE VOTE:

I like dueling because if we never duel we are almost playing a straight up vanilla game and that isn't great.

Joth has some numbers on his side, but also consider that the survivor of the duel gets an unknown pr for the night. Which could be extremely useful.

The fact that e thought he would get the PR makes his voting for his own duel more plausible.

I'm only going to vote yes on the duel today if it involves one of the fools wanting to duel so badly.

This is somewhat flip, but e was one of the folks who wanted to duel badly, so based on that pubby ought to have voted yes. But he voted no.

[Glooble]

1) Joth since you were so persistent on getting others to claim... and you know Awaclus isn't... and I0X is the new guy... either a reason for not claiming or claim it up pretty please.

I was being coy because there was a very specific circumstance where I might have been able to gotcha scum, but with your claim that dream is dead.

At the last minute, I voted yes for the duel. It was a change in my previous thinking. For one thing, ADK had been scumread by Glooble, who I tend to trust, and e wasn’t having an exceptionally townie game. It felt like they were both decent day 1 lynches. And partly I felt it would be better for the vote to be closer, for this scenario we’re in right now.

Hold up, when did I scumread ADK?

[A Drowned Kernel]

Just did a quick re-read. I have a case, coming in the next post, but just leaving these tidbits here first.

THINGS PEOPLE SAID ABOUT VOTING BEFORE THE VOTE:

I like dueling because if we never duel we are almost playing a straight up vanilla game and that isn't great.

Joth has some numbers on his side, but also consider that the survivor of the duel gets an unknown pr for the night. Which could be extremely useful.

The fact that e thought he would get the PR makes his voting for his own duel more plausible.

I'm only going to vote yes on the duel today if it involves one of the fools wanting to duel so badly.

This is somewhat flip, but e was one of the folks who wanted to duel badly, so based on that pubby ought to have voted yes. But he voted no.

If this is leading up to a pubby case I would be on board for that

[jotheonah]

I think Glooble is scum. vote: Glooble

I have been thinking this for a while but I didn't want to say it because I know some people assign a lot of weight to our reads on each other. I would ask you to pay attention to the case itself rather than that.

So this is more or less all of Glooble's posts and why they make him scummy. There are two parts to the case, plus a random scumtell.

1) He has played it as safe as one possibly could in the duel conversation, up until the point where having a strong opinion could actually help scum, at which point he developed one.

2) His case-making has been tentative, perfunctory, and unconvincing. His attempts at scumhunting read performative, and I think he's better than that when he's actually trying.

I'm neither pro-duel nor anti-duel. I will vote for a duel if I think it has a reasonably good chance of containing scum, and I will vote against a duel if it's more likely to me that both players are town. I'm not sure I see the advantage of having a default preference for duel or no duel.

This is exactly how scum positions themselves if they want to be safe however they vote. And it has the advantage of looking like a very sensible, towny position and staying neutral in the back and forth.

vote: DatSwan

Hard to articulate exactly why  but I’m getting a strong scum vibe off of his analysis posts. I’m trying to trust my gut more.





clip -- Glooble's Swan case -- clip

These two posts, together and individually, just really feel to me like someone who is trying to make a case, not someone who is trying to determine who scum is.  It feels like the kind of case-making that you do when you know you’re not actually scumhunting. The fact that he states the vibe first and then makes the case further reinforces the idea that he wasn't so much looking for scum as choosing a person then building a case on them.

Well that was fun while it lasted. I now think DatSwan is town.

vote: pubby I guess?

And he immediately backs off the case when it fails to gain traction.

If we’re ignoring MiX’s set order I’ll go ahead and say I voted no. I’m townreading ADK, e hadn’t really said enough to give me a read one way or the other, and I honestly didn’t think the power role gained would have been particularly useful on night one, especially with information twisted as it would have been by the duel.

Safe vote explanation, set up by his prior post.

MiX: doesn’t want to lynch e by default

Also MiX: wants to lynch e the regular way instead

Well then I guess ADK's also scum for doing the same thing... I would rather have a real day than a random lynch (E loses the duel everytime anyway) and a one-shot PR.

Meh. That's such a non-post.

I wasn’t calling you scummy for it. Sorry if it came off that way. I was just being flip.

This is actually the post that made me start looking at Glooble. Overly-apologetic/defensive is my top scumtell, though I know not everyone’s a fan.

Also for now I want to Vote: ADK

My theory being that if there's a duel with a scum on it, then that's 50/50 that the scum does, compared to 3/14 with no duel

So in my mind, the no duel makes it slightly more likely that one of the duellers were scum. And as I'm agreeing more with the e logic, ADK seems like a better vote

What you're missing is the fact that the scum in this scenario have two people who they know will vote for their opponent if necessary. That makes getting involved in the duel a lot safer for them. I think if I were scum I would vote for the duel unless the townie I was up against had a ton of towncred. And frankly, neither ADK nor e had that amount of towncred going into this vote.

This isn’t scummy in and of itself, but if scum voted no, it behooves scum to get town looking at claimed yes-voters.

[jotheonah]

1) Joth since you were so persistent on getting others to claim... and you know Awaclus isn't... and I0X is the new guy... either a reason for not claiming or claim it up pretty please.

I was being coy because there was a very specific circumstance where I might have been able to gotcha scum, but with your claim that dream is dead.

At the last minute, I voted yes for the duel. It was a change in my previous thinking. For one thing, ADK had been scumread by Glooble, who I tend to trust, and e wasn’t having an exceptionally townie game. It felt like they were both decent day 1 lynches. And partly I felt it would be better for the vote to be closer, for this scenario we’re in right now.

Hold up, when did I scumread ADK?

I was misremembering your Swan case it turns out.

[MiX]

Vote: Glooble, I didn't read the case but joth always has a good read on Glooble so I'll unconditionally sheep.








Now that I've triggered joth, I can say I like his case. Just one thing:

If we’re ignoring MiX’s set order I’ll go ahead and say I voted no. I’m townreading ADK, e hadn’t really said enough to give me a read one way or the other, and I honestly didn’t think the power role gained would have been particularly useful on night one, especially with information twisted as it would have been by the duel.

Safe vote explanation, set up by his prior post.

What prior post? And of course

MiX: doesn’t want to lynch e by default

Also MiX: wants to lynch e the regular way instead

Well then I guess ADK's also scum for doing the same thing... I would rather have a real day than a random lynch (E loses the duel everytime anyway) and a one-shot PR.

Meh. That's such a non-post.

I wasn’t calling you scummy for it. Sorry if it came off that way. I was just being flip.

This is actually the post that made me start looking at Glooble. Overly-apologetic/defensive is my top scumtell, though I know not everyone’s a fan.

What was this about Glooble?

[Glooble]

Look, last game I had a scummy feeling about pingpongsam all game, but I never acted on it because I didn't have evidence. It turned out pps was scum. A few games ago on lynchpool I caught scum!shraeye based pretty much entirely on a gut read that I couldn't articulate. So I resolved to start trusting my reads more, hence the vote for Swan without explanation. Then mcmcsalot called me on it and everybody said they were townreading Swan, so I looked more closely, and figured out what it was I found scummy, but I also found some towny stuff in that reread. I didn't back off because the lynch wasn't gaining traction, I backed off because he made a post that felt very townie and changed my read on him.

I'm flattered that you think I'm better than this as town, but the fact is my day 1 cases as town pretty much always suck (and often they're on DatSwan.)

[Glooble]

Your case on me, though, is, frankly below your usual standards.

[A Drowned Kernel]

joth/glooble scumteam, calling it now

[Glooble]

If e and ADK are both town, I think we can almost certainly expect scum to have voted yes. But since there wasn't a duel, there's no incentive for scum to have claimed a yes vote- they would know, before anyone claimed, that there would be no way to refute an over-abundance of "no" votes, and a yes vote draws more suspicion. I think we are more likely to find scum among the "no" voters. Unfortunately, that group is huge, so it doesn't narrow things down very much.

[Robz888]

I think Joth's reasoning for being against dueling but then voting for one really holds up, and is extremely townie, not sure scum thinks that way. (I mean sure they do but WHATEVER DAY 1). So I have a big town read there. His Glooble case is fine.

I actually do think it's sort of scummy of E to vote for the duel that includes him, but did I read it right that he thought he gets the PR if he wins? I guess that would make him want to vote for it. Also I could sort of see E, who favors bold play, just voting for it anyway. Eh, I guess I'm thinking town here after all.

Vote: Glooble

[pubby]

I don't follow your reasoning here, about voting in {ADK,e} or about voting for the people who said yes. Can you say how you get to that?

No duel outcome is more likely if scum is is in the list of people dueling. The difference is weak but it does exist. For other days this is going to be negligible compared to other info but for d1 it seems better than picking randomly.

Yes voters are mildly suspicious because I consider duels anti-town d1.

For e it's weird he wanted to be in a duel unless he knew he could win it. ADK seems towny to me and I would definitely vote to kill e over ADK. I don't understand how he could view this differently unless he had buddies to support him.

did I read it right that he thought he gets the PR if he wins?

Nah a random player gets the PR.

[Glooble]

Like, I guess its a fine day one case? It's completely wrong, but so subjective that there's nothing in it that I can argue against.

[jotheonah]

prod request: 0iX

[jotheonah]

Pubby, why did you vote no after saying day 1 that you would vote for a duel if it involves an openly pro duel player (such as e)?

[silverspawn]

prod request: 0iX

Sent.

[pubby]

Pubby, why did you vote no after saying day 1 that you would vote for a duel if it involves an openly pro duel player (such as e)?

I didn't even check what e had said. I just remembered I didn't find him suspicious so I voted no duel.

[Joseph2302]

Pubby, why did you vote no after saying day 1 that you would vote for a duel if it involves an openly pro duel player (such as e)?

Good spot
Vote: pubby

[Debatepro]

Like, I guess its a fine day one case? It's completely wrong, but so subjective that there's nothing in it that I can argue against.

Preliminary thoughts on where joth falls on the town to scum spectrum?

[Glooble]

Like, I guess its a fine day one case? It's completely wrong, but so subjective that there's nothing in it that I can argue against.

Preliminary thoughts on where joth falls on the town to scum spectrum?

Other than his case on me, nothing has set off my scum radar. I need to do a reread though.

[MiX]

Look, last game I had a scummy feeling about pingpongsam all game, but I never acted on it because I didn't have evidence. It turned out pps was scum. A few games ago on lynchpool I caught scum!shraeye based pretty much entirely on a gut read that I couldn't articulate. So I resolved to start trusting my reads more, hence the vote for Swan without explanation. Then mcmcsalot called me on it and everybody said they were townreading Swan, so I looked more closely, and figured out what it was I found scummy, but I also found some towny stuff in that reread. I didn't back off because the lynch wasn't gaining traction, I backed off because he made a post that felt very townie and changed my read on him.

I'm flattered that you think I'm better than this as town, but the fact is my day 1 cases as town pretty much always suck (and often they're on DatSwan.)

Big (like really big) explanation for voting and unvoting Swan

Your case on me, though, is, frankly below your usual standards.

Like, I guess its a fine day one case? It's completely wrong, but so subjective that there's nothing in it that I can argue against.

Like, I guess its a fine day one case? It's completely wrong, but so subjective that there's nothing in it that I can argue against.

Preliminary thoughts on where joth falls on the town to scum spectrum?

Other than his case on me, nothing has set off my scum radar. I need to do a reread though.

[MiX]

That post deserves a conclusion. Glooble is scum. Okay now to prepare myself for the town flip...

[MiX]

Like, I guess its a fine day one case? It's completely wrong, but so subjective that there's nothing in it that I can argue against.

Preliminary thoughts on where joth falls on the town to scum spectrum?

Other than his case on me, nothing has set off my scum radar. I need to do a reread though.

Is joth town, null or scum? Why didn't you answer the question? Who are your scumbuddies?

[Glooble]

1) Joth since you were so persistent on getting others to claim... and you know Awaclus isn't... and I0X is the new guy... either a reason for not claiming or claim it up pretty please.

I was being coy because there was a very specific circumstance where I might have been able to gotcha scum, but with your claim that dream is dead.

At the last minute, I voted yes for the duel. It was a change in my previous thinking. For one thing, ADK had been scumread by Glooble, who I tend to trust, and e wasn’t having an exceptionally townie game. It felt like they were both decent day 1 lynches. And partly I felt it would be better for the vote to be closer, for this scenario we’re in right now.

Here's a thing - joth is saying he, at least partially, based his vote on my scum case against ADK, which was actually against DatSwan. Joth had a whole day to decide yes or no. You'd think he would have reread. I did. But if he had reread he would have seen that my case was on Swan. This seems like an easier mistake for scum!joth to have made while coming up with a townie justification for his vote.