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Author Topic: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 7)  (Read 268963 times)

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liopoil

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2200 on: February 07, 2013, 08:29:29 pm »

I see... so say, if jimmmmm claims doc then Yuma should probably use it right?
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yuma

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2201 on: February 07, 2013, 08:38:55 pm »

I see... so say, if jimmmmm claims doc then Yuma should probably use it right?

maybe... Or JK... and if he hasn't already used up his powers if he is a 1-shot. (although I am not sure if a doc or JK should say if they have used their powers or not). The other problem with it is that it attracts investigations as well. Which basically means that both cops will return a result of "station" when I use it nullifying their investigative results.

I am very hesitant to use it because while it would prevent an additional night kill, it is a night kill of me a confirmed (yes, I know... only confirmed to myself) townie, would potentially stop scum from killing scum (which is what would have happened had I used it night 1 or 3) and would make the cop investigations from that night worthless.

I think it is a negative utility role.
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liopoil

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2202 on: February 07, 2013, 08:43:57 pm »

wait, but you wouldn't die right? getting to skip night is pro-town yes?
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yuma

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2203 on: February 07, 2013, 08:46:32 pm »

wait, but you wouldn't die right? getting to skip night is pro-town yes?

ah yes...! I had forgotten about that. That will depend on whether or not the doc or JK has a power available to perform a doc or JK.
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liopoil

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2204 on: February 07, 2013, 08:52:35 pm »

Updated Living:

1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf
2. Robz - Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed NOT MU)
10. mcmcsalot   - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - ??/?? (Confirmed NOT MU)
12. theorel - MU Cop/?? (Confirmed Town)
14. Dsell - 1-Shot Deathproof/Jadzia-->Ezri Dax
We can count ash and Dsell as confirmed not-maquis right?
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theorel

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2205 on: February 07, 2013, 09:10:25 pm »

Yes.  I'm Miles O'Brien.
@ashersky: you haven't only investigated dead people, you also investigated me...and for the moment I'm alive.  Your investigations also make sense from a town perspective, and you stopped painting me as a scum mastermind yesterday, which is a reasonably town reaction to such an investigation. 

Of course, as an IC I'll probably be dead tomorrow.  Which might be sufficient reason for yuma to use his lightning rod?  I mean, yes it results in a confirmed town (to you) death, but it's in place of a confirmed town (to everyone) death.

Okay, now for the liopoil situation.
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theorel

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2206 on: February 07, 2013, 09:11:20 pm »

(that yes was in reference to liopoil.  i.e. ash and Dsell are confirmed non-Maquis)
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yuma

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2207 on: February 07, 2013, 09:41:57 pm »

Jimmmmm appears to be online. You are up for claiming!
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yuma

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2208 on: February 07, 2013, 09:54:34 pm »

K. That was suspicious... Jimmm was online, saw this thread and didn't claim.
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ashersky

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2209 on: February 07, 2013, 10:00:46 pm »

Updated Living:

1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
2. Robz - Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed NOT MU)
10. mcmcsalot   - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - ??/?? (Confirmed NOT MU)
12. theorel - MU Cop/?? (Confirmed Town)
14. Dsell - 1-Shot Deathproof/Jadzia-->Ezri Dax (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)


So...

Possible MU:
ashersky
Robz
yuma
mcmcsalot
Dsell

Possible Maquis:
Robz
yuma
liopoil
mcmsalot
Jimmmmm

Possibly both:
Robz
yuma
mcmcsalot

That last subset should be investigation targets, at the very least.
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ashersky

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2210 on: February 07, 2013, 10:01:18 pm »

Fixed:

Updated Living:

1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
2. Robz - Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed NOT MU)
10. mcmcsalot   - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - ??/?? (Confirmed NOT MU)
12. theorel - MU Cop/Miles O'Brien (Confirmed Town)
14. Dsell - 1-Shot Deathproof/Jadzia-->Ezri Dax (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)


So...

Possible MU:
ashersky
Robz
yuma
mcmcsalot
Dsell

Possible Maquis:
Robz
yuma
liopoil
mcmsalot
Jimmmmm

Possibly both:
Robz
yuma
mcmcsalot

That last subset should be investigation targets, at the very least.
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2211 on: February 07, 2013, 10:12:59 pm »

I am a 1-shot Tracker, not a Tracker.
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theorel

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2212 on: February 07, 2013, 10:15:45 pm »

Okay, why we shouldn't lynch lipoil.
There are 4 potential game situations right now:
1. There were 4 scum initially there is now 1 MU left.  liopoil can't be scum.
2. There were 3 MU and 2 Maquis initially, there are 2 scum left both MU.  liopoil can't be scum.
3. There were 2 MU and 3 Maquis initially, there are 2 scum left, 1 of each faction.  liopoil is quite probably the other Maquis, although I'd want to look over that case myself (and would like to before today ends anyways).
4. There were 3 MU and 3 Maquis initially, there are 3 scum left, 2 MU and 1 Maquis.  Same as above really, except lynching town would be really terrible.

4 is really unlikely.
2 and 3 are the most likely and about equal.
1 is possible, but if we're in that situation we're in pretty good shape anyways.

So, for my analysis I'm going to throw out possibilities 1 and 4.
This means there is a MAXIMUM 50% chance that liopoil is scum.  I would argue it's at least somewhat lower than that.

For the 5 players who are unconfirmed as non-MU each has at least a 20% chance of being scum.

Okay, I've tried to work out the cases, but basically it comes down to: if we lynch town we go to lylo/mylo.  There are some questions of when to activate yuma's LR-power.  If there's only one scum-team then he should activate it at some point, because it can't be WIFOMed.  (i.e. either scum kills yuma which leaves a confirmed town alive or scum doesn't kill yuma and we get an extra mislynch which we can use to lynch yuma.  So, since scum-yuma can't get away with living we don't actually need to worry about whether he's scum)

BUT if there are 2 NKs ever then yuma's power can be WIFOMed.  If he activates immediately he can prevent a scum-kill but then we don't know how many scum-teams we're dealing with which is potentially even worse.

I don't like the liopoil lynch because of the possibility that 2 of yuma, Dsell, Robz, ash, and mcmcsalot are MU.
Also, there is at least some possibility that if there is a Maquis player it isn't liopoil.  (yes the liopoil case is good, but if it's wrong we're killing someone who's confirmed to be NOT in the only faction we know-for-certain exists.)

Part of the issue here though, is that a pair in the set of MU-possible players has different possibilities than a single-scum in that set.

But, I feel like we should be looking into the set that can be scum regardless of set-up rather than looking at one person who can only be scum specifically if there are 3 Maquis.  This doesn't bear out if liopoil is really the only possible Maquis-player.  I'll have to think on it some more, but regardless we should definitely spend some time today looking into people that actually CAN be Galzria's partner(s).





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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2213 on: February 07, 2013, 10:26:18 pm »

Theorel, I don't think you've considered the case against liopoil well enough. I'm not sure I've ever been this sure that someone is scum absent night information.

I also find it very likely that there are at least 5 scum, meaning one team or the other has an extra person. (None of the scum PRs we've seen so far are strong AT ALL, and everybody in the town has a non-trivial power. So scum have to have something... either some strong PRs we haven't seen, or maybe just a number advantage).

It seems hard to believe Munch/Glooble were it for their team. A 1-shot roleblocker and a Neighbor? Up against all the town PRs, and another scumteam that includes at least a ROlecop (which is better than both those PRs). No, I think Glooble/Munch HAVE to have another partner to be balanced.

That partner is very, very clearly liopoil.
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ashersky

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2214 on: February 07, 2013, 10:27:28 pm »

Updated Living:

1. ashersky - Maquis Cop/Worf (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)
2. Robz - 1-Shot Tracker/Kasida Yates
3. yuma - 1-shot Lightning Rod/Elim Garak
9. liopoil - Neighbor/Rom (Confirmed NOT MU)
10. mcmcsalot   - Bomb/General Martok
11. Jimmmmm - ??/?? (Confirmed NOT MU)
12. theorel - MU Cop/Miles O'Brien (Confirmed Town)
14. Dsell - 1-Shot Deathproof/Jadzia-->Ezri Dax (Confirmed NOT MAQUIS)


So...

Possible MU: ashersky, Robz, yuma, mcmcsalot, Dsell

Possible Maquis: Robz, yuma, liopoil, mcmsalot, Jimmmmm

Possibly both: Robz, yuma, mcmcsalot
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f.ds Mafia Board Moderator

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ashersky

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2215 on: February 07, 2013, 10:30:38 pm »

If someone made up a role, it was liopoil with Neighbor or mcmc with Bomb.

I think Scum Bomb is pretty awesome.  It only works if they are night killed, and it helps town, since we have no town night kills.  But town having no night kills probably means a Bomb is Town.

Looking at the Possible Galz partners, I think Dsell is still a possibility.  Deathproof plus roleblocker is pretty strong as far as scum teams go.  They're like the passive strength team.

Robz has been town to me all game.  He's agreeing with my lio argument.  I guess if he's the other Maquis, that makes sense.

Scum LR is a topic of favorite conversation on f.ds.  We've seen it before.  Twice.
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2216 on: February 07, 2013, 11:34:56 pm »

To reiterate my position, I don't think it's possible for Munch/Glooble to be a scum team without another person. A 2-perosn team with a 1-shot roleblocker and a Neighbor is just too weak here. Plus they have another scum team, which is bad for them. They are like weaker than the 2 man team in the regular setup.

They have to have a partner, and all evidence points to that person being liopoil.
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ashersky

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2217 on: February 07, 2013, 11:39:00 pm »

To reiterate my position, I don't think it's possible for Munch/Glooble to be a scum team without another person. A 2-perosn team with a 1-shot roleblocker and a Neighbor is just too weak here. Plus they have another scum team, which is bad for them. They are like weaker than the 2 man team in the regular setup.

They have to have a partner, and all evidence points to that person being liopoil.

Preaching to the choir here.
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Robz888

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2218 on: February 07, 2013, 11:42:07 pm »

To reiterate my position, I don't think it's possible for Munch/Glooble to be a scum team without another person. A 2-perosn team with a 1-shot roleblocker and a Neighbor is just too weak here. Plus they have another scum team, which is bad for them. They are like weaker than the 2 man team in the regular setup.

They have to have a partner, and all evidence points to that person being liopoil.

Preaching to the choir here.

Ha, yes. I am trying to direct my preaching to the theorel, who I think is wrong, but not wrong-therefore-scum.
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theorel

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2219 on: February 08, 2013, 06:42:27 am »

Stop trying to use roles to determine alignment.
Roles were assigned 100% independent of alignment.

Now, that said, joth may have balanced the Numbers of scum based on the roles they received.  So, it's quite possible that the Maquis so far being weaker than the MU means that there's MORE LIKELY to be another Maquis.

But the fact that everyone arguing for the liopoil lynch is potential MU-scum with up to 2 of them in fact being scum makes me HIGHLY hesitant to take the arguments at face value.

I believe the argument is: Munch (who was practically absent from forum games for IRL reasons) didn't vote for Glooble or liopoil.
liopoil voted for Glooble only once the lynch "seemed certain" to go through.

This sounds like a very bad scum strategy, especially for a team with superior numbers.  Especially after seeing liopoil nearly lynched day2, and Glooble taking heat over and over.  Especially given liopoil's OBVIOUS buddying to Glooble day1 (cited yesterday).  Now, hey I'm one who has argued that obvious-scum is obvious over "Too obvious to be scum".  But, I think all of this needs to be more carefully considered.

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theorel

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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2220 on: February 08, 2013, 07:42:37 am »

Interesting point-of-fact: The same scum team killed raerae, shraeye, and The Munch on consecutive days.  This points strongly to Robz/ash if they were scum-hunting-scum.

Let's talk about some actual "FACTS" (or at least close to facts)
At least one of: {ash, Robz, Dsell, yuma} Must be scum.  This is guaranteed regardless of set-up.
mcmcsalot CAN be scum, but it requires another MU-player to exist.  Either Robz for lying about tracking him, or another player to do the kill for him.  So, it's pointless to consider mcmcsalot.

Robz (and ash) have sounded so much like scum worried about the sudden proliferation of ICs.  I mean ash suggested we should lynch liopoil then Jimmmmm.  i.e. let's kill off the players that MIGHT belong to a scum-faction that might not even exist.  Robz attacked them both immediately, and also suggested that mcmcsalot is the only player he can see as Galz' partner.  When in fact the opposite is true, mcmcsalot pretty much can't be Galz' partner all by himself.

Now, I think ash is quite possibly just wrong.  He seems to suggest ideas that most people dislike (including myself).  I mean he was suggesting before claiming that we should lynch whoever claimed Maquis-cop...when he was in fact the Maquis-cop.  Things like this, I really have a hard time understanding, but it lends credit to the idea that he actually thought lynching liopoil then Jimmmmm was a good idea.

So, I'm left with hefty suspicions on Robz.

I need to think through all the implications, but I actually think a good strategy would be to lynch Robz today (this provides a wealth of information on the 5 possible-MU players), and have yuma LR tonight (if Robz flips town).  That would leave us with ashersky OR Dsell as the only potential MU players tomorrow.  I'd lean Dsell since at that point 2 confirmed town players have town-reads on ash.

If flavor indicates that yuma was double-killed, then we can consider what to do.  Let's see, we'll be at 6 players, 2 scum of opposite alignment.  Now if we mislynch here, we go into night with 5 players, 2 scum-3 town.  Now if the Maquis-player shoots town while the MU player shoots scum, MU wins, similarly for Maquis.  If they both shoot town, then we get 1v1v1 which is an interesting no-win situation for everyone.
OTOH if we lynch scum here, then we go into night 5 players, 1 scum-4 town.  So we get to 1 scum v 3 town, and we're at mylo...but one of those 3 is maybe confirmed town?

If yuma was single-killed then we'll be at 6 players, 2 scum of same alignment with 3 of the 6 confirmed not that alignment.  That's mylo, with 2/3 chance of hitting scum.  So, we pick Dsell/ash, and if we're right we have 3v1 with 2 confirmed non-scum...if we're wrong we lose.

So, I think that points to the fact that lynching liopoil is the wrong move strategically.  I'd like input from anyone who's actually willing to work through it.  Also, yuma are you willing to sacrifice yourself since you're much more useful as a NK-absorption than a suspect?

I'd be willing to be persuaded that Robz isn't the best target here.  But pretty much it needs to be one of the three: {Robz, Dsell, ash}.  I'm leaning town on ash, neutral on Dsell, and slight scum on Robz.  yuma is up there, but as long as he activates his LR it's not a concern.
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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2221 on: February 08, 2013, 08:40:18 am »

Sorry for the delay, just got home from work. I logged on a couple of times to see what was happening, but didn't get time to post.

I am a Beloved Princess.

checks PM

I am Vadek Bareil Antos, so I guess that makes me a Beloved Alien Man-Princess. That means that if I am mislynched, the Bajorans on the Station, whoever they are, will spend the next day mourning for me, which will shut down the Station and skip a Day. For some reason those bastards don't care if I'm killed during the night.

I realise this could be seen as an aggressive scum claim - "I dare you to lynch me!" - and for most of the time between getting my PM and starting day 1 I was planning to claim almost immediately so it didn't appear to be a desperate attempt to save myself. But I realised that would make me a target for Vigs and not a target for scum, so I said what I said to try to reverse that and maybe draw a scum kill. I guess they're too smart for me though, because here I am.

PPE: ^I went to post this at about 4pm but then discovered my internet was no longer working, then a friend came over to play Dominion, then I went out and I'm finally home and it's past midnight. So again, sorry for the delay.
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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2222 on: February 08, 2013, 08:42:37 am »

Also, I a tidbit of information that could be useful: during day 1, jo was worried that the game was unbalanced against Town. Because of this, I also acquired X-shot Doctor.
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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2223 on: February 08, 2013, 09:25:36 am »

Also, I a tidbit of information that could be useful: during day 1, jo was worried that the game was unbalanced against Town. Because of this, I also acquired X-shot Doctor.

Do we want Jimmmm to say whether or not he used his Doctor power? That could have some implications on me regarding my use of LR.
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Re: Mafia XIX: Deep Space Nine Mafia (Day 4)
« Reply #2224 on: February 08, 2013, 09:26:22 am »

Also, I a tidbit of information that could be useful: during day 1, jo was worried that the game was unbalanced against Town. Because of this, I also acquired X-shot Doctor.

Do we want Jimmmm to say whether or not he used his Doctor power? That could have some implications on me regarding my use of LR.

That's mostly up to theorel.
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