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[scolapasta]

NOW:

Also, saying you would've unvoted as scum is easy. Ironically, when I unvoted after chairs' claim, you voted for me.

The unvote wasn't the scummy part. Outing a PR was.

THEN:

Uh, scola is incredibly townie for unvoting there. Unless chairs and scola are both scum and planned the X-1 and the claim, which does not seem likely.

What? Of course scola unvotes as any alignment.

Unvote, idk anymore.

NOW:

I wish I was around when the Dylan claim went down, I could've established some order, and hopefully direct the wagon towards myself. But I wasn't there. So what can I do?

In retrospect I should've asked for the claim, but I thought if he was a PR he would've claimed earlier, given how he hammered Robz. I was wrong.

THEN:

Oh I just sort of expected to be vigged.

Good job town PRs!

Space was my top townread. Figures.

We don't need more ICs. We're winning by a lot.

[MiX]

The first is not a contradiction, the second only applies to Dylan claiming.

[scolapasta]

The point of the first was to show that when you were asked about your vote, you didn't anything about my X-1 vote outing a PR. Why not say it then? Is it just that it better fits your narrative now?

@galz, @swowl, what more evidence do you need:

• D1, helps create two town wagons, then doesn't hammer chairs
• D3, drives what we all assumed was our one remaining town PR to claim
• (probable) guilty result from being copped
• changes story, based on what seems to be convenient

There's more, but these are just off the top of my head.

I've not played that many games with y'all yet, but this just seems like one of the more open and shut cases I've seen.

(well, barring those were scum strategically outed themselves)

[MiX]

The point of the first was to show that when you were asked about your vote, you didn't anything about my X-1 vote outing a PR. Why not say it then? Is it just that it better fits your narrative now?

Because I didn't believe it was scummy anymore? That's why I unvoted?

• D1, helps create two town wagons, then doesn't hammer chairs

Yes, and a scum wagon. Given the way I played D1 I could've easily gotten hammered (because hammering whenever's pro-town right?). Also the next person that mentions me not hammering chairs is getting NKd.

• D3, drives what we all assumed was our one remaining town PR to claim

So anyone that makes a case on town is scum? Or what.

[scolapasta]

So in going back to find those MiX quotes, I did find a couple of tidbits things that *could* point to faust or galz. But they're a) on the weak side, and b) just feel like I'm trying find evidence to fit the crime, rather than follow where the evidence leaves.

But I might as well share (in case others see something more):

#910: faust seems intent on confirming that chairs didn't claim (scum hunting PRs?):

2 of those have claimed (or essentially claimed) VT.

I saw MiX's VT claim. Is there one from chairs that I missed? Or is it just the fact that he didn't claim at X-1?

#994: Galzria ignores the fact that scum (with daychat) would not unvote and allow a partner to hammer. Feels like something scum!galz might do:

Uh, scola is incredibly townie for unvoting there. Unless chairs and scola are both scum and planned the X-1 and the claim, which does not seem likely.

What? Of course scola unvotes as any alignment.

Unvote, idk anymore.

Why would scum bother unvoting there?

What does that even mean? Scola unvotes because town!scola unvotes. I don't understand what your question is.

This. What advantage does scum!scola ever get from NOT unvoting? Hope Town comes in and accidentally hammers? Please.

Unvote

—-

Placeholder: Vote: Robz while I think things through.

[faust]

#910: faust seems intent on confirming that chairs didn't claim (scum hunting PRs?):

2 of those have claimed (or essentially claimed) VT.

I saw MiX's VT claim. Is there one from chairs that I missed? Or is it just the fact that he didn't claim at X-1?

More like I had just subbed in and wanted to make sure I didn't miss any important information.

[Galzria]

So in going back to find those MiX quotes, I did find a couple of tidbits things that *could* point to faust or galz. But they're a) on the weak side, and b) just feel like I'm trying find evidence to fit the crime, rather than follow where the evidence leaves.

But I might as well share (in case others see something more):

#910: faust seems intent on confirming that chairs didn't claim (scum hunting PRs?):

2 of those have claimed (or essentially claimed) VT.

I saw MiX's VT claim. Is there one from chairs that I missed? Or is it just the fact that he didn't claim at X-1?

#994: Galzria ignores the fact that scum (with daychat) would not unvote and allow a partner to hammer. Feels like something scum!galz might do:

Uh, scola is incredibly townie for unvoting there. Unless chairs and scola are both scum and planned the X-1 and the claim, which does not seem likely.

What? Of course scola unvotes as any alignment.

Unvote, idk anymore.

Why would scum bother unvoting there?

What does that even mean? Scola unvotes because town!scola unvotes. I don't understand what your question is.

This. What advantage does scum!scola ever get from NOT unvoting? Hope Town comes in and accidentally hammers? Please.

Unvote

—-

Placeholder: Vote: Robz while I think things through.

I didn’t ignore it - it’s just almost an impossibility. Scum know Chairs is telling the truth there. They hammer 0% of the time. A green PR flip there would almost certainly guarantee their exile the following day.

[Galzria]

Scola, for all your arguing, why aren’t you voting MiX?

[scolapasta]

I am, post #1358.

But just in case, it got missed:

Vote: MiX

[Galzria]

I am, post #1358.

But just in case, it got missed:

Vote: MiX

My bad - I scanned like 3 times & didn’t see it.

[Galzria]

Intent to hammer.

[MiX]

Intent to hammer.

At least let me ISO you today, dang.

[Galzria]

Intent to hammer.

At least let me ISO you today, dang.

Go for it.

[mail-mi]

Vote Count 4.2

scolapasta (2): Swowl, Galzria
MiX (3): faust, scolapasta, EFHW {X-1}
EFHW (1): MiX
 
Not Voting (0):

With 6 alive it takes 4 to exile.

Day 4 ends at 12:00AM FT on Saturday, August 22nd.

[MiX]

Intent to hammer.

At least let me ISO you today, dang.

Go for it.

I don't wanna do it under pressure!

What do you gain from hammering now, anyway?

[Galzria]

Intent to hammer.

At least let me ISO you today, dang.

Go for it.

I don't wanna do it under pressure!

What do you gain from hammering now, anyway?

Your flip.

[MiX]

Intent to hammer.

At least let me ISO you today, dang.

Go for it.

I don't wanna do it under pressure!

What do you gain from hammering now, anyway?

Your flip.

I flip town or the game's over, so flips at this point don't help.

[Galzria]

Intent to hammer.

At least let me ISO you today, dang.

Go for it.

I don't wanna do it under pressure!

What do you gain from hammering now, anyway?

Your flip.

I flip town or the game's over, so flips at this point don't help.

You’re stalling. Post your ISO.

Hammer at 7:30pm FT

[MiX]

In an hour??

Hammer me now, I don't have it ready. I was going to do it at the end of the IRL day like the others!

Also this is stupidly anti-town.

[MiX]

What do you think my play here is if I'm scum? What the fuck, you can't pressure the last scum into doing anything. They'll do everything you ask them to do since they have nothing to do anymore, there's no partner interactions they need to worry about.

This is just stressing me out. Let me pay attention to this game when I want, not on your demand.

Withdraw your intent if you're town ffs.

[Swowl]

No hammer yet pretty please.

I have done my defending of MiX. If you’re gonna do it you’re gonna do it. But i wanna read over the shit that happened this weekend.

Just hold off for right now plz. No rush.

Also what changed? (Reminder i haven’t read this weekend yet, so if it’s in there just ignore me)

[Swowl]

Don’t ignore me about the no hammer tho plz

[EFHW]

Here are almost all Galz's posts:

Code: [Select]

Galzria
95 MiX, why should I believe that you're not scum this game?
107 It's been helping me laugh. Why is this question so difficult for you? It's not as if you don't know it's coming. This is the... 8th? 9th? game in a row that I've asked it of you in my opening post.
109 But also, this. vote: Chairs Robz - why did you make this post but not vote for Chairs?
226 As Robz put it via Mcmc: Annoying posting does not equal scummy posting. (I don’t think it’s annoying at all. ❤️ Hearthstone. Posts make me chuckle). The point being, there’s nothing in those posts that are alignment indicative. Judge game posts, not fluff posts.
230 What, playing for the other team? Eh. I’m not sold on his Robz explanation for lack of vote against Chairs. At least, he called Chairs post  “annoying but not scummy”, and I disagree - I think it’s scummy. Or at least, I think it’s more in the alignment indicative category than NAI category,
232 Swowl: Which one is skum for you Galz or Robz? Galz: Does one of us have to be scum? Why?
237 I don’t understand these accusations of inactivity (from you and/or everybody else). The game has been open less than 36 hours. I feel like I’ve been more than reasonably active & engaged.  Certainly I feel like I’m doing my part to note things that ping me, and ask for more details from those that I feel haven’t responded satisfactorily. Yeah, I’m not MiX level active, but nobody is, and I certainly NEVER am. I’m not really sure why I’m being held to some imaginary standards that others aren’t being held to.
240 Swowl: you know it was a joke Galz: Sure. The kind that’s built upon the non-joking accusation of others. One that further a narrative while distancing yourself from the accusations themselves.
241 Swowl v. Galz
270 I think it’s far easier more likely for scum to hide behind the artifice of false indignation over the existence of off-topic fluff posts than it is for scum to continuously go through the effort of making them. [I disagree] It’s the easiest of ways to appear pro-Town without actually committing to anything game-relevant. I’m happy with my Chairs vote right now.
308 Random reads time.
Swowl and I rarely butt heads in games. I also feel like we’re rarely town together - but that’s mostly because he rolled scum 9 games in a row and I feel like I defy the odds on doing so. In any event, he’s not top of my list.
Robz is probably scum. Nothing about his posts suggests this directly, and he’s been super buddy-buddy towards me so it pains me to have this read (especially if he’s in fact town just generally agreeing with me)... but I’m always more suspicious of people agreeing with me than those that disagree with me. Call it Reverse OMGUS.
Pops... I just like her style. Could be scum, but it’s not the vibe I’m getting from her. There was a veiled reference made earlier that pinged me though ... need to do some research before making a conclusion on that.
Chairs is by far the scummiest player. See: Fake reaction to early voting MiX; Fake indignation over fluff posts & vote for Pops; Bad wagoning on Swowl.
EFHW is in this game?
Didds isn’t substance-engaged and it’s weird. But I’m not convinced it makes her scum. I have another reason for being suspicious here, but I’m waiting to see how it develops.
Oh! Dylan is very townie.
MiX is annoying. Probably town because every post he makes leaves me wanting him not to be.
Joth is Joth. Also probably town, but he’s hard for me to read.
Space is slightly scummy, but it’s so mild a lean that it’s probably just a bias I have on reading them.
—-
I think that leaves Scola & LaLight/faust?
Both are pretty neutral for me. Nothing stands out from either. Scola is slightly more memorable in a townie way. LaLight I got nothing on.
312 Fluff posting - I think I’ve been engaged on this topic? I think it’s just a thing some people do naturally. It’s incredibly NAI, and is very, very, VERY rarely (read: never) an actual scum tactic. However, it’s incredibly easy for scum to attack such posts as being “anti-Town” to appear more “pro-Town” themselves. And in the event that such attacks lead to mis-exile’s, there’s little to no culpability to be had as “well, they shouldn’t have been acting in an anti-Town fashion” is an easy defense.
All that is to say: Attacking fluff is a platform by which scum can vote for Town for non-game related reasons (literally), without having to defend having real reads.
Fluff is fluff. It exists. It makes people have personality and read less like robots. As long as it isn’t out of hand, it’s not that difficult to skim over. It’s much easier to skim fluff in a medium sized game than do a detailed D1 read in a large (18+ player) game.
313-7 Robz: When did I buddy you??? Galz: Lol iso yourself. You’re super agreeable towards me. Not saying I MIND though... Robz: I mean, I haven't like attacked you. You haven't said all that much yet. But we're really defining buddying down if me not having gunned for you from the get-go is an example of buddying! This sort of matters, since me buddying you is indeed something town!you would think is scummy behavior from me. Falsely claiming I'm buddying you is therefore definitely a line of approach that scum!you could use. Galz: I mean, I’m more than happy to pull the posts that stood out to me. Maybe you’ll disagree with the conclusion, but I feel like the assertion is more than fair.
319 joth: what is the chance that this Robz-Galz thing is town v town? what's the chance that it's scum v scum. These are good questions to ask. Galz: The setup and combination of questions is better than what MiX asked regarding Me & Swowl. Generally speaking, I hate X vs Y questions. They’re setup questions that frame two people in a “one must be scum” light with no real, honest reasoning being it. Town players disagree and debate far more often than town vs scum do. It’s much more townie and reasonable to ask “What’s your read on X”, and “What’s your read on Y”. Asking “What do you think of X vs Y” is just scummy.
321 Robz: There is in fact a long history of scum!me trying to string town!Galz along with pleasantness, and Galz usually figures it out right around the point where it's not too late to kill me, but in fact too late to stop my scum faction. So this could be genuine jumpiness on his part, or it could be a ploy.
330 Out of the gate, the bolded below feels like "Good question, thanks for asking!" - it struck me as an acknowledgement of my prodding you on your post, while also saying "good work, gold star effort for you!". It's both acknowledging and dismissive in tone at the same time.
In the next quote, you kind of jump to my defense when Joth gets a weird vibe from me. The point of contention here again is my prodding of you, where your defense of me is "I don't agree, I think the question was fine". Again, it almost feels like you're trying to make sure I *really* appreciate that gold star you're giving me for asking a good question.
Your very next post was to jump in and take my side of an argument and to vote against Swowl. This is probably the post that most directly comes across as buddying - the other two are more gut feels.
It's early days still. You don't have a ton of posts all told. Nobody really does (MiX, Pops maybe?). That's made it all the more striking to me though that I've gotten these vibes off so little.
335 Also, while you should very much enjoy your internet popcorn (or real popcorn is good too!), I want to make sure it's not unknown that the exchanges between Robz and I are very light hearted. Yes, I stand by my statements, and yes, he stands by his defenses and requests for me to show my work - but the back and forth's are very tongue in cheek. Not sure if it comes off that way to others or not.
337 I'm not saying you don't have a right to make reads - and sure, those reads could be based off interactions that I'm having, that result in you scum reading the person with whom I'm interacting. But they way you've presented it definitely came across as low-key buddying.
Either way, I'm not voting you at this time (and don't plan to anytime soon). It's a low-key gut D1 read. It pinged me, and there's definitely more than one post there to support that suspicion - but I don't think it's anywhere near as scummy as the things that Chairs have done.
Speaking of which, you all should join me on Chairs.
379 I townread him before it was cool. [Dylan]
384 Chairs: Galz are you on my team I don't want to check my PM Galz: I don’t believe I am, no. I’ll let you check your PM when you’re not busy and get back to me.
387 Wow, things went quiet. I know it's the weekend and all, and there's other exciting things happening elsewhere, but yikes.
388 Last vote count was about 48 hours ago. Think we can get another one? Request Vote Count
469 Quote from: Galzria on July 24, 2020, 10:20:10 pm: Chairs is by far the scummiest player. See: Fake reaction to early voting MiX; Fake indignation over fluff posts & vote for Pops; Bad wagoning on Swowl.
486 Dylan: Vote: MiX Galz: I like this reasoning. Robz: I don't really think scum would risk leaving it at that and signing off here, so this is more likely coming from town. Unvote  Galz: I don’t like this reasoning (although it may not be wrong... I just don’t like it). Joth: really? ok in that case I'm signing off for the rest of the day too. Galz: Are you admitting to being scum? *Scum wouldn’t do X* *Really? You don’t think scum would do X? Ok, I’m doing X* I get you’re being facetious, but the “Really?” reads weirdly.
492 Tentative vote: Joth. A number of posts in the last 36 hours or so have pinged me. There’s been an almost... flippancy about his posts that don’t feel like they are genuinely townie. Debating my feelings towards MiX/Robz/Swowl/LaLight right now. Also way, way, way under the Radar is Space.
519 Clearly I stated that I knew you were being facetious and not serious. But this hasn’t been the only flippant post that you’ve made. I’m not voting you because you were going to stop posting for the rest of the day - making my vote out to be that is missing the point at best, and scummy at worst.
541 vote: MiX The whole MiX/Chairs thing is icky.
544 [MiX/Chairs quotes]
548 Did what you had to do? Catch scum? But you wouldn’t Hammer them? Because when they flipped Green you would look bad and you didn’t want that. See, there are 4 options:
Both Green - MiX, who has been pounding on the “my reads are right and I’m not backing down ever this game” hammers here. Why wouldn’t he? He doesn’t know Chairs is Green and thinks for all the world he knows best.
MiX Green, Chairs Red - Sea above, but with a way better outcome.
MiX Red, Chairs Green - Hammering Green looks scummy. MiX LOVES “I told you so’s” and trying to demonize players that vote for mis-exiles. Much better for his image to stay off. Someone else can take the fall for a bad hammer.
Both Red - MiX doesn’t want to hammer his partner here. Hopefully the wagon goes poof, but even if someone else hammers MiX can still take credit for the read - “Oh please, I was pushing him all day. I just didn’t Hammer because we still had 24 hours in the day”.
558 Maybe don’t express such complete unwavering and unarguable confidence in reads if you’re not willing to back those reads up with a vote.
564 After the wagon almost completely dispersed! When the gravitas of that vote was SIGNIFICANTLY less! You’ve been absolutely dead-set on this scum team and your reads ALL DAY. The moment you actually had the opportunity to ACT on your words you bailed out. I’m sorry if you don’t like to hammer, but your words and reads become meaningless if you won’t support them.
Yeah, you want Joth more. Joth wasn’t/isn’t happening today. You’ve bullishly stood by Chairs and Isis though. Until it mattered.
568 [re: Swowl] He’s on my list and fits in some pair notes that I have, but other flips would be more likely to hit scum in my opinion, and would better inform my direct reads on him.
571 Unvote from MiX
573 MiX, assume only 2 of your 3 are correct. What’s your read on Robz? And then: Do you think EFHW, Didds, Space and LL are really all Town? I struggle to remember most of them are even in the game (especially Didds!)
574 Back to vote: Joth
579 [To Didds:] Sorry!!! But really, outside all the fun posts, I really struggle to remember much game relevant stuff from you!
581 I wouldn’t have unvoted if MiX didn’t feel genuine to me in that exchange. I feel like I pushed him decently hard.
587 [re: MiX] He did vote EXTREMELY little as my partner in the most recently concluded game - but it was multiball, so his voting was still looking for scum so... meh.
606 LL/faust: yeah, but you work alone, you never work with town. You say things to discourage people for voting for other people without any argument whatsoever.
Galz: This back-and-forth was incredibly townie from LaLight. As the night has gone on I’ve kept coming back to this in my head. It’s great to have your own individual reads, but sitting here repeating them over and over, while refusing to look/consider any other options does nothing useful for town - even if you’re 100% correct.
Town is coming from a position of a lack of knowledge. They have to figure things out. Together. As a team. Having one person on the team that refuses to cooperate or work together makes the entire project harder for everyone else.
I don’t think this point makes MiX any more likely to be scum, but I do think it’s a valuable lesson for being Town effectively. And I think LaLight’s making it is extremely townie.
[I thought this post was scummy]
662 I don't believe MiX is scum, and I think we should be exiling Joth instead.
677 I guess to more clearly answer your question, I think that Joth, as either alignment, does exactly what he did when Chair's exile didn't happen. In considering if he's scum, I don't think he would've done things any differently than he did.
684 Robz [to Didds]: Scummy. If MiX IS town the only people who know this clearly are scum. You are trying to get out in front of something you know to be a mis-exile? Galz: This post is scummy. I agree with Didds. And while in a world of technicalities you are correct, the fact is town players can have very clear town reads on other players. There is nothing wrong with a player expressing a hard town read on somebody that is on the chopping block. Further, why would scum bother? To get credit for calling a town flip? When has a town (as a whole) gone "wow, that was super townie of them to be so against that town exile!"?
689 Robz: Galz, would you move to chairs to avoid No Exile? Galz: I would move Chairs to avoid a no-exile. I think he's more likely to be scum than MiX is. Joth is still the best choice. As end of day is approaching, I'll throw this out there: I think that both you, Robz, and Joth are scum. I read both Chairs and MiX as being mis-exiles waiting to happen. However, yes, I would still exile Chairs over No-Exile.
696 There are enough people online to make any of the exiles go through... but where the votes will land in the next 5 minutes... that's an entirely different question!
701 Robz: I don't believe you could actually think, actually have the confidence to believe, me and joth are scum together and you got us already. Galz: "Got you"? No. Far from it. But you're easily my top two scum reads and if we "got" Joth today, I would definitely be pushing for you tomorrow.
904 Votes on me are bad.
Bad Robz. Bad Isis. Bad Chairs.
Well, Chairs gets off slightly based on my next point, but still.
There are 11 alive right now. 3 of those people are scum. 2 of those have claimed (or essentially claimed) VT. Assume for a moment that neither of them are scum.
That leaves 5 remaining players. In that grouping is a PR value of 6 points (if I'm understanding correctly - Groot was 2 points, and I think somebody said D1 that we had a town PR pool of 8 points?). That means there are at least 2 PR's in that group of 5. Scum know who each other are. They also know if Chairs/MiX are town. And if Chairs/MiX ARE town, then they absolutely want to try and get lynches going amongst the remaining town players.
In a "best" case scenario for scum here, with my exile, I claim/flip a PR. In a "worst" case scenario, with my exile, I claim/flip VT and their pool of players that could be a PR is reduced further. In either case, pushing my exile is a complete win for scum here.
------
But unlike scum, we do not know if MiX/Chairs are telling the truth here or not. I still think MiX was overall fairly townie at the end of the day yesterday, but YMMV. And sure, town cares more about potentially hitting scum than they do about  potentially hitting/outing a PR or not whittling down the potential PR pool for scum to shoot in.
But then my question to Robz/Isis (less so Chairs) is this:
If you're town, do you believe that I have a greater chance of flipping scum than MiX or Chairs? Does the fact that I have a much higher chance of being a PR than either MiX or Chairs play into your consideration at all?
And the question I have for Chairs is:
Do you believe that all three wagons at the end of day were on town, or do you think one of them was scum? If one of them was scum, it has to be MiX, right? Do you think the chances that I flip scum are greater than the chances that all three wagons yesterday were on town?
905 Apparently I'm bad at math. 11 minus 5 is 6, not 5.  ::)
908 faust: What about Dylan though? Is he not bad? Galz: Wow. I am just off. First my subtraction, and then this. I read Space's VC and just substituted Chairs for Dylan. No clue why. Yes - same point as Robz/Isis - and I would like for him to answer the same question I posed to them.
912 He [chairs] 934 Let’s unbox you. Vote: Chairs  I don’t believe that all three wagons were on Town. I feel like there’s been a decent trend recently where we either exile scum D1, or nearly do. It feels like rarely are we absolutely, completely off. And given that we had 3 very viable wagons, the struggle to make any of them happen just doesn’t sit right.
I think Chairs is scum before MiX. If you disagree strongly (Dylan), convince me otherwise.
I also still read Robz as scum. There’s little that he’s posted that I’ve felt comes from a townie place. It’s a wagon I could get behind.
EFHW, Scola & Isis I need/want to iso/reread. Everyone else I’m keeping my opinions about to myself right now. did not explicitly claim, no. But that’s the working consensus (right or wrong) given his post at X-1 with a decent chance he gets hammered (MiX not on his wagon at that time afterall)
995 This. What advantage does scum!scola ever get from NOT unvoting? Hope Town comes in and accidentally hammers? Please. Unvote from chairs Placeholder: Vote: Robz while I think things through.
1047 vote: MiX
A) Isn’t Me.
B) Other town-reads on him.
C) Chairs & Joth are/were Town.
D) .... There’s no good D. I honestly believe Robz is scum. I have a pretty strong scum read on a second player, but there’s literally no point in pushing their exile right this second. My third highest scum read is a little more fluid - I have preferences, but nothing really solid.
If all 3 of Chairs/MiX/Joth End up being Town... well, it’s not saying a lot but I’ll be really confident in my reads at that point... although it may be too late.
1049 MiX: Why is there scum in chairs/mix/joth? Look at EoD, look at wagon movement, look at the fact scum has daychat. What were they doing, and how does that mean there's scum in that pool of players?
Galz: I don’t think that there has to be. But I think that there was.
To your point: Chairs ran up to X-1. After his post, a couple of people bailed pretty quickly, but it’s likely that with daychat scum would’ve pumped the brakes a little bit to wait and see how Town responded. If you’re scum, there wasn’t any real reason at that exact moment that you would’ve thought that slowing things down would lead to a wagon on you growing.
However, once that happened it became increasingly difficult to get your exile through. I’m Town & a part of that problem, sure. I generally have read you and your reactions as townie. But if you’re scum it’s also quite reasonable that with daychat & coordination, plus chumps like me, your exile would’ve been particularly difficult. Certainly if you’re Town then my refusal wouldn’t have had as big an impact as if you’re scum.
Then things shifted to Joth (again, yeah, I helped make this happen). Joth flipped Town. So I have to consider what happened and why.
I know 100% I’m Town. Chairs didn’t happen, but as it turns out he’s likely Town. Something scum knew and had to balance reactions to live while he was at X-1. Joth got exiled and flipped Town. So if I’m Town & you’re Town... why didn’t your exile happen? Why was it so difficult? Why did we end up on Town!Joth?
————
I still think Robz has a higher chance of flipping scum than you. But it’s 3 hours to deadline, and I’m going to flip town every time more often than you, so...
1061 vote: Robz. Let’s make it happen.
1062 MiX, move your vote to Robz. It’s a much better exile than Swowl.
DAY 3
1080 Nice shot Chairs. Time to read back, see if Isis dropped any hints D2.
1081 Mysterio is the last scum, making his PR useless now that Dr. Strange is gone.
We’re at 7 of 8 flipped/claimed points, but given Robz’ attempt to fakeclaim, our last PR is pretty clearly Scarlet Witch. Her Rolestopper doesn’t impact factional kill though, so her PR is essentially useless too.
She could claim here, giving us a game that is: 2 IC 5 VT 1 Scum
But I don’t really see the point. Better to wait and see if a wagon forms around her at some point to generate additional data on finding the last scum - plus, not claiming increases the likelihood of being around a little later and having an IC on a latter day (assuming we don’t win today).
Thoughts?
1085 MiX is the last unknown player off Robz wagon. Going to check and see how Space/Robz felt about him D1/D2 - Scum might’ve killed Isis over Chairs in the hopes of setting up a MiX misexile today (has Chairs not shot Space, MiX would almost certainly be exiled before her). Although the Robz exile could’ve been 100% Town driven. That’s just so rare, especially early game.
1087 Faust isn’t clearly town, but he’s more town than at least two other people, so he’s a final day problem at worst.
Also, at some point (neither today nor tomorrow) we should No Exile to bring us to odd numbers.
Towniest of town: Chairs Dylan Scola (Me!)
Left to do full interaction rereads: Swowl (Robz strong push means probably town) Faust MiX EFHW
Let’s get an early day vote down for funsies.
Vote: EFHW
1088 MiX: I'm not sure it's possible I'm scum anymore. Galz: It’s entirely possible.
1097 scola: Not sure I agree with the logic that last PR is Scarlet Witch, could also be Antman. Why would Robz specific claim matter here? Galz: Because scum know what PR’s are in the game.
Scum knew Chairs was telling the truth, and had Groot’s flip. I’m inclined to agree with MiX that they probably Role Copped Isis N1 and planned to kill her last night. That meant Robz could only claim a 1 Point PR. Seems more likely to try and draw out a CC than not - although I guess at this point it would’ve been obvious to Ant that Robz was lying. Still, I don’t know - just feels like it’s more likely for Robz to pick the PR that exists than the one that doesn’t. Either way, I don’t think the remaining PR should claim, so it’s moot.
1140 Did Scum!Scola need to put Robz to L-1, or was there an alternate viable choice at the time of his vote? This is generally the point/reason I had him in my town read list. Scum had daychat and coordination - with Robz at L-2, do they believe that the inevitable is upon them and it’s time to bus? That vote is the vote that forced the claim from Robz. Do you think that was the scum!chat play? “Vote me to L-1, I’ll claim & the wagon will disperse to Galz, Swowl or MiX”?
1141 If that is in fact the scum!chat that occurred, it’s irony is the greatest thing I’ve read on these forums in a long time - this would’ve come shortly after we all berated Robz for suggesting people leave their votes on Chairs (or at least, for showing “surprise” at the unvotes). To then get quickhammered himself... 🤣
1225 Will re-read and iso tonight. Following Swowl & my camping trip this past Thu-Sun, I went straight to Tahoe (OMG I’m staying in Olympic Village, host to the 1960 Olympics and the place is freaking insane. There’s a private golf course, a waterfall spa, Private tennis courts... all by reservation only due to the times... and holy *^%# the views!!!). I have plenty of service here, but I’m finding myself too busy hiking, swimming, or just relaxing in general. I’m here until Sunday though... so I guess I can force myself to play some forum mafia during this time...
1233 I don’t honestly believe MiX is scum. Haven’t since the end of Day 1. Ya’ll want to lynch him though, that’s fine with me. My reads have been good, but not perfect. I could be wrong here. Just know that MiX won’t vote himself. I’m not voting there (that’s one Town removed). Swowl doesn’t look like he’s voting there (assuming he’s likely Town, that’s two Town removed). That means for MiX to be scum, the other 5 Town will need to vote him here.
I’m currently voting my #1 (EFHW) based largely on gut. She was tied for my #3 yesterday (with Space, who I felt was buddying me a little - something my #1 (Robz) would’ve encouraged as he knows from our history I’m generally susceptible to), and Robz flip didn’t really change that. With Space flipping though, why not pursue my #2? That was faust... who has felt very different than normal since subbing in. He’s had a lighter tone than normal, been more jovial in general, and (horror of horrors) has generally agreed with my thinking/lines of thought... which never happens for us.
And yet, while he’s certainly not in the clear (he was second behind me to Robz when Robz had very little chance of moving. He was in bed during deadline (I think? That’s normally not his available time), and couldn’t move his vote. He could’ve parked it somewhere else with deadline approaching, but why would he? Scum!faust would love to be off a Town!exile if it went off somewhere else, and on the crazy, crazy chance that Robz went, he still looks good), he is certainly moved down the list for me.
Scola has moved back on though. Thought the L-1 vote was unlikely to come from scum, but given daychat and the INSTANT claim by Robz (11 seconds?), that feels extremely coordinated - I don’t think they thought Dylan would throw the hammer there, and in the window of time that took, Scola could’ve been caught off guard in the Mafia QT. Need to look into this.
1240 There may come a point in time I’m willing to consider Dylan. The criteria for that has not yet been met. Given my current read of things, there’s a 0% chance I’ll be voting him today.
1257 Alright, we'll make this really simple: Dylan, are you Scarlet Witch?
This is the only point of credence with which I've been giving Dylan's hammer of Robz. While it's true that we CAN have two of the same PR in the game, we already had Groot (2) and Iron Man (2) known. If Dylan was/is Scarlet Witch, I can see how, on the back of Chairs IM claim, he quickly and decisively disbelieved Robz claim.
I do not ask for nor want a DIFFERENT player to claim AM or SW here. If Dylan is SW, he can claim. If he's not, then the value of his hammer from a town perspective goes way, way down - and MiX's argument for scum!Dylan goes way, way up.
1263 That’s an auto win, yeah? Can’t be both? vote: Dylan
1287 To quote faust: ugh.
1290 unvote from Dylan (think Scola was hammer, but if not)
DAY 4
1335 Will not vote Swowl today. Or MiX.
We lost an exile. That sucks. We still have two to hit scum, and we control where those exiled are.
My preferred 3 to go yesterday were EFHW, Scola, and then distantly faust, maaaaybe MiX.
We only have two chances now. I’m still preferring those two to EFHW or Scola.
Also, yes, I’m sorry for my part in exiling Dylan. I clearly read him as Town prior to that situation, but I (as others), made an uninformed assumption and rash judgement. At least with any amount of existing uncertainty we should’ve waited for the MOD to come in. So for my part, I’m sorry.


[EFHW]

Here are almost all of scola's. Stops partway through Day 3.

Code: [Select]

Scolapasta
63 D1, my favorite. Though I really do like this theme.
64 How do you get two or three? 8 town points, so it'd be at least 3, no?
73 I like this approach - I mean even if not helpful, I don't see how it can hurt.
91 How so? It would just be speculating about the roles, not who has them.
100 I still don't see the harm, but in case I'm missing something, I'll just enumerate the point combinations (people can just replace the points with roles fairly easily on their own anyway):
121 Ha! This is great. And reflects my general feels on D1. I'm on board for a different approach. (sadly I don't have one myself)
160 Right, I think there's value added in both. I also don't think my enumeration was rocket science, but was useful enough for me to start wrapping my head and what kinds of combinations we might have.
161 Those who have played with popsofctown before, is this their usual style of play? (it's fairly different from the rest of y'all so just trying to calibrate my radar).
163 My heart desires a lot of things... reading through a bunch of old games on my vacation day is not exactly one of them... ;)
I will say your posts do seem in character for you from other non mafia posts I've read, so there's that, which feels towny.
I am trying to hone in on some non RVS D1 vote, but while I have some ideas, it's still at my usual elusive D1 distance...
187 Honestly, it's a small thing, but as I've never played with you, I'm trying to just find something to get any kind of bearing. Are you saying it's wrong?
I hear everyone on D1 - clearly it's something I need to get better at. Not sure it's going to happen this game, though.
188 I'll bite. Why are you voting for Galz?
201 Man, you're hurting my head... so the reasons I would give you some town cred are really reasons I should think you're scum. Which why would you say that, if you were scum.
I don't know, I'm leaving this thread for a little and going to join in with joth.
Vote: galz
222 You know what, I'm switching my vote:
Vote: popsofctown
She went from indignation at setup talk, without really offering an alternative - except general discussion of D1 importance. And now hearthstone (?). Add in that the weird WIFOM back and forth with me...
Meanwhile I'll still keep my eyes on Galz' lurking / aggressiveness (though of course, it feels like this will suffer from the Observer Effect).
269 Re: off topic posts
By themselves, agreed they are anti-town and not scummy.
But the context of my vote was more than that - if there were both off topic and on topic, sure, but what's the point of just off topic? whether purposeful or not, it is distracting. And it makes later days harder because going back to reread is more of a chore.
Seems like a good smoke screen to hide behind. i.e.
Step 1. do anti-town things.
Step 2. Declare it's not scummy, just anti-town.
Step 3. Repeat step 1.
Add in no actual helpful topics?
(and I agree, there is room for friendly fluffiness, because we're all in effective quarantine (I hope) and it's nice to have some chatter, but this Hearthstone talk (know I at least know the reference) ain't that.)
tldr: just because anti-town isn't always scummy doesn't mean anti-town is always not scummy
325 So while I much on some popcorn and watch this Galz - Robz whatever it is...
Y'all have convinced me to retract my pops vote.
Unvote
It seems logical that scum would not actually fluff post without some other plan as it is so clearly anti-town that it's too easy a target (note to future scumapasta, remember to fluff post someday!). And pops has posted some actually content since.
The above is also ironic, because I am about to fluff post. But just one and only because I feel it is inclusive and well, sharing is caring:
Today was my birthday (observed). A friend came down for a socially distanced outdoor lunch, then tennis, then socially distanced (and masked) Opening Day watching, and lastly socially distanced outdoor dinner*, with two other friends. It was so nice to see friends in 3D!
* for joth and other Boston people: Blue Ribbon, yum!
359 Thanks for the birthday wishes - to be clear, yesterday was the "observed" version, like when you get July 5th off, if the 4th falls on a Sunday.
For some actual content, trying to figure out a vote... I do see merit in Mix's and Didds' lists. I'm also wondering if one of Galz or Robb could be though these kinds of back and forth often tend to end up town v town. Doesn't make them any less fun to watch).
I also consider anyone who didn't send me birthday wishes scummy.
407 Why are you so sure of those three? I'm still wary of pops and the whole fluff posting, but she has added some actual content more recently.
I think I agree on:
Vote: chairs
414 As y'all know I still have my eye on Isis - i.e. reading her posts as if it were scum!isis. This one fits that bill - if she sees that partner chairs is going to exiled, it gets her some town cred, and if he's not, it's already laying a framework to suspect MiX.
it is something town!isis would do as well, though, but wouldn't there then be a vote for chairs here? I could go back to voting here.
419 M128 was multiball, though, so that's already different enough.
489 Except he doesn't need you specifically to have that reaction - just anyone who was voting for him.
497 I don't get this - you think chairs is scum, you'd 100% rather get scum, but when you had the chance to hammer you didn't.
505 I generally understand the desire to scumhunt, in this case it just seems a bit sketchy - we're already nearing end of day (tomorrow at noon?).
Also MiX saying "I'm usually too scared to hammer" just sounds wrong. That's not the image of MiX I have.
514 I mean, maybe? Everything you always post is with such confidence (as exhibited by joth's quote wall), to then hear a timid  "I'm usually too scared to hammer".
515 Man, now I'm torn - I was about to switch my vote to MiX, and now the chairs vote has quickly grown again.
I still like chairs for scum. so leaving my vote. Let's see if we can get this done.
516 Also, I completely side with joth on the "that's what'll do then". It's NAI.
543 This seems designed to get a reaction. I gotta say, I'm not sure what to make of Isis's play. At least it's different.
546 I still don't buy that Mix was afraid to hammer one of his scum reads.
Vote: MiX
should be X-1
582 I agree, but I'm willing to give her a pass, as she seems to be in my "struggles with D1" boat.
585 I don't know, maybe? I know I won't actually do it, but I need to go back and look at games I've played in the past with him. I feel like this is the first time I've seen a "waver" of confidence like this. I mean, maybe his hammering has never come up? I'm fairly certain I've seen more than one "intent to hammer" posts from him.
Another thing is that, especially in D1 he usually jumps votes around a decent amount. I *did* do a quick search in this gamer and he voted early RVS for isis (back when she was pops), then switcged once to joth. And that was it, until this non chairs hammer happened.
I'm really not sure how to interpret that.
586 Who is Chris? (chairs?) Too late this game, but next game I think I may try to figure out a different D1 approach. Well, unless I'm scum, and then I'll have to figure that out.
641 fyi, catching up on over night posts - have a work meeting 11-12, but hopefully it'll end on time and I can contribute some before DL. (in the meanwhile, I'm still OK with my MiX vote, if for some reason I can't)
668 Here now, meeting ran a little long, worried I won't have much time to catch up.
So MiX has claimed VT. Hmmm... I get the reasons to doubt, but here's where WIFOM always gets to me; i.e.
• scum would claim a role here
• so VT claim means not scum
• so VT claim is good claim for scum...
etc.
I just didn't get a sense of joth being scum, frankly. If these are the two wagons, I still prefer MiX for un-MiX like play.
671 I could still go back to chairs. But not sure that happens in 20 minutes. Didds, why do you think MiX is town?
673 Problem here is CC isn't rock solid, since there can be clone heroes.
713 Vote: joth
717 Unlike MiX, I'll go ahead and hammer. Let's not do this end of day crap again, ok?
720 Wow, I did not realize that! Add another to my f.ds mafia firsts...
723 Yeah, if I mis-hammered, I owe you a beer in the After Times.
DAY 2
735 Man, from the excitement of the last minute (second!) hammer to finding out Joth was town. Sorry all. Please, let's not do that again.
I'll likely going back to voting one of MiX or chairs. But want to review that end of day 1 for any shenanigans first.
745 You'd understand if you weren't afraid to hammer. :)
Still scumreading MiX and/or chairs, but not so strongly that I don't want to reread and get a better feel on others.
751 See, this is more like the MiX I'm used to. SO why was D1 MiX so different?
(that said, I'm curious about your Robz hypothesis, will add him to my reread list for sure)
772 Why chairs instead of you, though? I mean I guess if you're partners, it doesn't really matter. But I think it's also possible it's just one of you.
My D1 scum reads (at different times) were chairs, MiX, and Isis.
MiX is starting to feel more like what I'm used to from town!MiX*. Isis has started added real content, so that's good. Chairs hasn't posted much (any?) since they were X-1. Not sure how to interpret that.
* I'm always wary of this though, especially with MiX. I mean scum!Mix wants to play like town!Mix, no?
Will *try* to find some time to do a reread of D1 for Robz and anything else that jumps out this weekend. (and this is where I'll grumble at Isis for all the fluff posts!)
854 I think I actually agree. My main MiX argument was the unwillingness to hammer. My gut said it was un-MiX like, but the more I think about it, I don't actually recall him wanting to hammer. (one of my early games was MiX vs Ash accusing each other of being the last scum; ash is someone who loved to hammer and I may have mixed them up).
I'm not a big fan if exiling lurkers, as I am sometimes that, as well.  Though I would like to hear from them.
I think I'll join the
vote: Robz
crowd as the anti lurker who does seem to be trying to control the narrative.
866 She's on my list, but I prefer Robz or chairs.
879 Yeah, daychat for scum is interesting.
Normally, I'd say lurking is not the best reason to exile, as I tend to get into "lurking periods" and the one time I did exile a lurker vs not (it was a 3 person Lylo), I was wrong. But, I do agree that the daychat dynamic changes thing some.
Which, WIFOM, but makes me wonder if Dylan bringing it up is an attempt to appear towny.
954 Bad math feels like it should be scummy. Makes me want to vote for chairs.
But I don't think it is actually scummy. Since it's easy to be shown wrong, not actually lead anywhere.
On another note, sorry I haven't been around much the past few days, though I have not lurked like others for the entirety of the game. A tree fell on my car, so been dealing with that / generally unhappy about it. Good news is it looks like it is covered; bad news will take 2.5 weeks (!)
Vote: Dylan
Have a work meeting now, so will add more after, but wanted to get it out there, see what others think.
960  ;D Yeah, the write more later meant I would explain my vote.
961 OK, so my Dylan vote:
I'll admit it's not super strong, but I feel like I have two choices:
MiX / chairs: Like I've said, I'm now leaning more town for Mix, based on D2. I'm. not sure they'll ever be a game where I fully believe anything, but that's where I am for now this game. Similar with chairs, though more null, I guess. I think the bad math was not scummy.
Other: I don't love the galz wagon. I am still fine with Robz vote, but that doesn't seem to be getting any traction. So thought I'd throw out someone new. It comes from the discussion about scum daychat earlier - I believe it was Dylan that started suspecting lurkers, then in a later post, had something about me specifically  - "I didn't even realize he was in this game". And that just seemed off. While I haven't posted much in the past few days (I'll add an image of my poor car at the end of this), I don't fit in the lurker bucket.
973 I just looked at the count - we have two people at 3 votes and a bunch of 1's and not a lot of posting.
I still don't like the idea of exiling lurkers just for lurking, but I don't know anymore. Seems like it'd be a good move for scum right now to do that, since nothing's really happening.
Between the two wagons, if I need to move, still prefer chairs to galz. Anyone willing to help me understand the case on galz? Anyone interested in joining me on Dylan?
979 I am definitely gun shy about another last minute (second!) exile. So time to hop on a wagon...
Vote: chairs
(X-1)
982 unvote
983 OK, got the unvote out of the way, now time to think things through...
[984 MiX votes scola]
991 Not really sure where this is coming from.
Anyway, three cases to consider:
1. Chairs is Ironman - possible (even likely?)
2. Chairs is scum and claiming to save self - possible
3. Chairs is town, but claiming false role - seems quite unlikely.
Not sure how to decide between 1 and 2. We don't have the usefulness of counter claims, since we can have duplicates. We just have total # - if true, we've know seen 4 of our 8 points, leaving 4 more. i.e. no way to definitively disprove - yet.
1014 I've kept going back and forth on MiX, but I'm back on the MiX is scum side of things.
Vote: MiX
Reasons: Mix was so confident about 3 targets, but didn't hammer. Turns out all three are town* (if we believe chairs' claim). This just work too well into scum!mix trying to pass off as town!mix.
* while the earlier math had some issues, the high percentage that 1/3 randomly would be scum was valid, unless the 3 were purposefully chosen.
I mean, this is perfect cover.
1017 It's this kind of statement ^^ "I didn't hammer the PR"  that worries me. Of course town wouldn't choose to hammer a PR. But we didn't know that at the time, so phrasing like this just feels so "leading the witness". EOD1 chairs was a decent case (which you supported) and if anything, a VT because they didn't claim when they had the chance.
In fact, thinking about it, that would be a perfect (and more plausible than "I'm afraid to hammer one of my top three suspects) reason for scum!Mix not to hammer there, no? Wouldn't scum rather hammer a PR than a VT?
Re: deadline - I should be around later tonight.
1024 Ok, sigh, you're making me go look at the tapes:
You posted at (forum times):
14:26, 14:39, 14:45, 14:49, 15:17, 15:29
chairs posts at 16:05
Robz unvotes at 16:33
So, yeah, you could've easily have gone to bed...
EXCEPT, you then posted again at 16:58, 17:01, 17:03, 17:05, 17:08, you get the picture.
It's as if you chose to conveniently be away when you could've hammered.
Look, I'm not saying this is a slam dunk, but it's a better vote than what else is out there.
1030 Looking at what people don't do or say is as important (and sometimes more important as what they do. It's possible you had things to do, of course, we do play asynchronously. But can you admit it's a convenient time for you to have been away?
So it's do as I say, not as I do?
1037 So, trying to reread some to see if I like anyone as much as MiX and I noticed this possible scumslip.
Do we really believe chairs claim? I mean, I thought I did, but this makes me wonder.
1043 Only scum knows our exact PRs. There could well be 2 (up to 4, 3, if chairs is actually Iron Man) Groot*.
* I feel like the plural of Groot should still be Groot.
It's weak, but it pinged my radar.
1046 Yeah, I said it was weak. :)
I just thought it'd be worth pointing it out to those who have played more with chairs and know if they are the kind of person who carefully examines the setup (I mean, I consider myself one of those, and I even then, I missed the day chat aspect until Dylan pointed it out, so I get it).
1065 OK, fine. I'm in. Vote: Robz
1070 I was X-1, this was the hammer. So do you think Robz? was lying with his claim? Or did you just exile our Rolestopper???
1074 SW also stops the other villains too, no? Well, anyway, I hope you're right; if not having her still in the game could've still been useful.
1077 True. I'm also reading Robz lack of posting post hammer as a good sign (since I'd at least expect a N1 report on who he role stopped, otherwise).
DAY 3
1093 First off, Nice shot chairs! Now let's get this done!
Every game, I'm inclined to vote MiX, I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm not sure that's where my vote is any more today.
MiX has been so off this game, we could ask him for his towniest read and then exile that person! :P
I can see the reasoning behind:
Vote: EFHW
1095 Not sure I agree with the logic that last PR is Scarlet Witch, could also be Antman. Why would Robz specific claim matter here?
1099 Right, this is what I was thinking. Well, sort of, I mean I think either could CC if that's what Robz was going for. (at this point the multiples argument is no longer relevant, I think)
All said, I agree no reason for PR to claim right now, regardless of what they are.
1102 Has been lurking and not very involved; wasn't on Robz wagon.
1106 Was she??  I have in my notes that she was on Galz. Let me go check.
(what do you mean by non-alignment confirmed?)
1108 OK, yeah, of course. Clearly, I knew that at some point, since she was just before my X-1 vote. It just didn't get into my notes. My bad.
OK, then:
Vote: MiX
1112 Honestly, part of it is stubbornness. The other part is (and I hesitate to say) respect.
I wanted to exile you D1, it did not happen. I had 2nd thoughts, but then was convinced to exile you D2, again did not happen. Again second (third?) thoughts. Maybe you are town, but you are a good enough player to play a super town game, with "bad" reads and be scum.
It definitely could be wrong. But I'm really not sure where else to go right now. And if it is wrong, at least you're not the potential IC.
I'm willing to consider others, faust among them. But don't have what I feel is as compelling a case on anyone else.
1117 We're back to RVS, then?
1118 Making sure I follow the rules about currently running games: in all past game that have ended, I have not yet been scum. :)
1125 This is similar to what I was trying to say above (where Dylan decided calling me out as novice scum).
1142 Ha! That would be pretty ironic if that were how it had gone. Sadly, I have to inform you that it's not. I went back and looked at the times of posts:
I voted X-1 at 11:49:15
Robz claimed at 11:49:26 (11 seconds!)
Robz posted again at 11:50:02
Dylan posted at 11:50:48
Dylan hammer at 11:51:14
So either scumapasta and Robz coordinated this in daychat, had Robz claim seconds later, but then waited 2 minutes to do anything about it (i.e. why didn't Robz direct scumapasta to immediately unvote?)
OR
Robz was watching closely, waiting for someone to X-1, claimed, and was thinking I would unvote, based on the fact that I had also previously unvoted after chairs claimed.
1143 Um, I can go back and look at the vote counts if you need me to, but my memory of most of these cases is I was an early voter on what eventually became wagons. (Notable exceptions I remember are near DL votes of joth (hammer) and Robz (X-1). And X-1 vs chairs, which I backed off of, as soon as he claimed).
Also, no idea what this means: There is one snapshot where scola unvoted before hammering Robz, as neither hammered Robz (which you should know) nor unvoted around then.



[Galzria]

No hammer yet pretty please.

I have done my defending of MiX. If you’re gonna do it you’re gonna do it. But i wanna read over the shit that happened this weekend.

Just hold off for right now plz. No rush.

Also what changed? (Reminder i haven’t read this weekend yet, so if it’s in there just ignore me)

No point in dragging it out either.

I’ve read your points. I’ve held my own opinions. I’ve read others points as well. There’s only 1 scum left, so a compromise of opinions will need to occur to get an exile. MiX’s play today, his complete defeatism, is more in tune with a scum perspective than town. And finally the points against him are equal to or better than the points against anyone else.