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Author Topic: The Necro Wars  (Read 352262 times)

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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2725 on: February 17, 2022, 04:32:54 pm »

I guess the other weird thing about poker it goes from "mostly about knowing the math, also many decisions are trivial" to this highly psychological situation really quickly, and both are important. The math definitely more so, but still.

faust

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2726 on: February 17, 2022, 04:55:14 pm »

Anyway so if you're rich, the correct play is to BULLY ALL OTHER PLAYERS MERCILESSLY.
Uh I know this, it's capitalism!
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2727 on: February 17, 2022, 05:18:25 pm »

Anyway so if you're rich, the correct play is to BULLY ALL OTHER PLAYERS MERCILESSLY.
Uh I know this, it's capitalism!

This analogy runs kind of deep, and it's to the worst kind of zero-sum capitalism. E.g., if you're poor, you actively want the rich to squeeze more money out of the other poor people.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2728 on: February 17, 2022, 05:28:35 pm »

Do you approve of Democratic gerrymandering because it makes the overall impact of gerrymandering "smaller", or disapprove because it's more corruption?

I feel like you have to disapprove, but at the same time, it's like if you know someone steals your lunch money all the time, and now you have a chance to steal some back.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2729 on: February 17, 2022, 05:30:34 pm »

This district also has some serious comedic value:

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2730 on: February 17, 2022, 05:31:42 pm »

Anyway, the overall impact of gerrymandering is BAD even if both parties do it equally. Generally, it means there are more non-competitive districts, and non-competitive districts are bad for democracy.

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2731 on: February 17, 2022, 06:54:40 pm »

Do you approve of Democratic gerrymandering because it makes the overall impact of gerrymandering "smaller", or disapprove because it's more corruption?

I feel like you have to disapprove, but at the same time, it's like if you know someone steals your lunch money all the time, and now you have a chance to steal some back.

Well it's not exactly like stealing your own money back. It's like stealing some money from the kid who stole your money and also some money from the other kid the first kid also stole from.
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2732 on: February 18, 2022, 07:48:41 am »

More on school

One problem is that the entire concept of forcing kids to sit still for extended periods while shoving pre-scheduled things down their throat is problematic

Another is Goodhart's Law; tests are optimized for objectivity and easy verification, and classes are optimized to do well in tests

A third is content selection

But a forth is that things are overwhelmingly explained poorly. I think this explains why I sometimes think "school taught me almost nothing useful", but then someone defends what the school teaches, and I have to admit it's kind of reasonable. (often it's not, but sometimes it is), but I don't remember attending these reasonable, useful classes

Concretely, we've covered the prisoner's dilemma, Kant, and utilitarianism in Ethics, but I'd say the teacher thoroughly botched all three to the point of losing most of their value

- The prisoner's dilemma is interesting *because it describes lots of real world situations*. Lots of people use a public toilet; this is a prisoner's dilemma. I did not get this *at all* from school. Narrowly understood, the prisoner's dilemma is an interesting curiosity, but... well, maybe still important because it highlights a deeper concept, but nowhere near as important
- Kant's system of dividing the mind into two components, a cognitive and a primal one (that is, if I understood it correctly at all) is I think pretty good, but in class I didn't understand why, so it seemed totally arbitrary. It would be easy to motivate by pointing out that you sometimes want to do things that you don't want to do (e.g. studying for a test), so there are several levels of wanting. (The categorical imperative is just dumb though, so no fault to the teacher there)
- On utilitarianism, we divided experiences into five categories, scored them 1-5, then *ADDED UP* the numbers to arrive at a final score. This is so heinously stupid that I can get angry about it now, and I did understand that much at the time

So abstractly, I think I'd describe the problem as "the person who put something into the curriculum probably had an idea of how it was helpful, but this can totally get lost if the teacher doesn't understand why it is helpful".

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2733 on: February 18, 2022, 09:18:36 am »

There really is so much interesting stuff out there. Right now I'm looking into Quantum Computing, and it's like this incredibly interesting field I knew nothing about.

Too bad I didn't take the class about it when  I had the chance. That would save me a lot of time now

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2734 on: February 18, 2022, 11:39:09 am »

Here is the main thing I've been trying to wrap my head around the past weeks.

ImE, almost all technically minded people view computation as substrate independent. That means it's algorithms, abstract computational steps, that count; it doesn't matter how they are implemented. The entire field of computer science is built on the premise of abstracting "Computation" or "Bits".  The Turing Machine is like the ultra foundational model of computation and appears to be fully general, many other models have been proven equally powerful, some independently. And a TM is the quintessential abstract, substrate-independent model; you just write little symbols onto a tape, it doesn't matter whether it's a physical tape or transistors or a computer simulation.

As a corollary, everyone views the task of understanding the brain as the task of figuring out the right algorithms. Once you find the algorithms, it doesn't matter that they run on a digital computer rather than a brain. Computation is substrate independent.

(( And this is relevant for me because it's the primary argument against panpyschism. Take a human brain. Scan it. Upload it. The substrate is totally different. But if you scanned it with sufficient detail, the uploaded brain should carry out the same computational steps. That means if you scanned the brain of a philosopher who writes papers about consciousness, the uploaded brain should still write papers about consciousness. Surely, this means it must still have consciousness. Therefore, consciousness must be located at the algorithmic level rather than the physical level. Bits, not atoms. ))

But...

Heating up a metal and letting it cool slowly will change its internal structure. Viewed on that level of abstraction, this does computational work. You've taken some kind of a grid or lattice or whatever and rearranged it. Could be formulated as a purely abstract computational task. But this won't work if you use a different material. Suddenly, the substrate matters.

Similarly, take a quantum computer and start changing the substrate. See what happens. (This is why I want to understand exactly how they work.)

This will probably be the single biggest pill to swallow for my audience as well. But computation as substrate independent is simply not always true.

Now maybe substrate dependence is rare, so it's not a big deal. (though I'd argue that for the philosophical question, it's a massive deal even if it's rare.) Maybe nothing like that happens in the brain, so the normal approach is fine. Or maybe stuff like that happens in the brain ALL THE TIME as QRI thinks, and organic intelligence is all about using substrate-dependent computation. In this case, there is a massive, fundamental  difference between biological brains and digital computers. This doesn't mean there's anything computers can't do, but they do it *differently*, and all of the people who are trying to reverse-engineer the neocortex have something coming for them. Or rather, they have nothing coming for them; their approaches will never work out.

Also digital computers may outright never have unified consciousness. here is something I would not have expected myself to say a year ago. But if consciousness requires substrate-dependent computation, that's the logical result.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2735 on: February 18, 2022, 11:45:50 am »

substrate dependent computation in the brain would also fit the fact that humans are so much better than computers at some things but so much worse at others. AI people of course know this, and explain it by the fact that evolution had different priorities and a different algorithm than AI stuff. I would have said the same up until recently without much thought. But e.g. constructing a high-resolution unified 2d model of the environment (which humans do, obviously) is an *extremely* impressive computational feat, and I'm not sure if it is actually plausible for evolution to have done this in a substrate-independent way. That would be an interesting line of research, trying to quantify the difficulty and estimating how long it would take evolution to find it.

Afaik almost no-one in the AI space questions this

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2736 on: February 18, 2022, 11:53:33 am »

honestly I might have predicted myself to never change my mind about anything this fundamental ever again

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2737 on: February 18, 2022, 12:40:24 pm »

it may also explain why some of what the brain does happens consciously and some unconsciously, another previously unsolved mystery

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2738 on: February 20, 2022, 02:46:01 am »

After collecting four data points, I'm ready to declare that Neural Annealing is a real thing. I've been in an exceptionally good mood every day after letting my brain enter high-energy states on the evening before, the kind of mood where being productive feels totally effortless. However it seems to last less long than I had expected; after two days most of the effect is gone.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2739 on: February 20, 2022, 11:27:47 am »

I observe that ETH is going into the wrong direction.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2740 on: February 21, 2022, 11:11:41 am »

Universal Love, said the Cactus Person

Awaclus

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2741 on: February 21, 2022, 12:34:00 pm »

Universal Love, said the Cactus Person

Transcendent joy, said the big green bat
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2742 on: February 21, 2022, 06:04:48 pm »

Hey I won a 500$ prize for LW post. That's kind of cool.

It was totally not one that I had no expectations for and almost didn't even bother publishing while stuff I cared way more about has been comparatively ignored.

But still cool

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2743 on: February 21, 2022, 06:09:32 pm »

This may make a wage of about 2$/hour if we count all time I've spent working on LW posts in my life so far

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2744 on: February 22, 2022, 05:45:38 am »

"Substrate Dependence," said the cactus person.

"Substrate Dependence," said the big green bat.

"Substrate Dependence," said the topologically deformed brain on DMT.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2745 on: February 22, 2022, 06:04:02 am »

Apropos of nothing, Von Neumann seems like a good candidate for the highest G factor person who ever lived.

Quote
Lothar Wolfgang Nordheim described von Neumann as the "fastest mind I ever met",[214] and Jacob Bronowski wrote "He was the cleverest man I ever knew, without exception. He was a genius."[215] George Pólya, whose lectures at ETH Zürich von Neumann attended as a student, said "Johnny was the only student I was ever afraid of. If in the course of a lecture I stated an unsolved problem, the chances were he'd come to me at the end of the lecture with the complete solution scribbled on a slip of paper."[216] Eugene Wigner writes: "'Jancsi,' I might say, 'Is angular momentum always an integer of h? ' He would return a day later with a decisive answer: 'Yes, if all particles are at rest.'... We were all in awe of Jancsi von Neumann".[217] Enrico Fermi told physicist Herbert L. Anderson: "You know, Herb, Johnny can do calculations in his head ten times as fast as I can! And I can do them ten times as fast as you can, Herb, so you can see how impressive Johnny is!"[218]

 A quadrillion contributions in different fields, including literally founding Game Theory. Plus perfect recall because why not:

Quote
One of his remarkable abilities was his power of absolute recall. As far as I could tell, von Neumann was able on once reading a book or article to quote it back verbatim; moreover, he could do it years later without hesitation. He could also translate it at no diminution in speed from its original language into English. On one occasion I tested his ability by asking him to tell me how A Tale of Two Cities started. Whereupon, without any pause, he immediately began to recite the first chapter and continued until asked to stop after about ten or fifteen minutes.[221]

And he turned into a Christian when he was diagnosed with a terminal illness:

Quote
Von Neumann reportedly said, "So long as there is the possibility of eternal damnation for nonbelievers it is more logical to be a believer at the end," referring to Pascal's wager. He had earlier confided to his mother, "There probably has to be a God. Many things are easier to explain if there is than if there isn't."[231][232][233] Father Strittmatter administered the last rites to him.[19] Some of von Neumann's friends, such as Abraham Pais and Oskar Morgenstern, said they had always believed him to be "completely agnostic".[232][234] Of this deathbed conversion, Morgenstern told Heims, "He was of course completely agnostic all his life, and then he suddenly turned Catholic—it doesn't agree with anything whatsoever in his attitude, outlook and thinking when he was healthy."[235] Father Strittmatter recalled that even after his conversion, von Neumann did not receive much peace or comfort from it, as he still remained terrified of death.[235]

People like to be very dismissive of Pascal's Wager, but the objections may not truly work. There was A rationally speaking episode about this. Amanda also thought it was not easy to dismiss.

Of course, I think he's wrong to be terrified of death, but that's a separate point. Also it doesn't have impact on Pascal's Wager since we're talking small probabilities anyway

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2746 on: February 22, 2022, 12:06:33 pm »

MiX

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2747 on: February 22, 2022, 12:09:23 pm »

Is it infinite? Why does it loop before it's over?
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silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2748 on: February 22, 2022, 12:45:44 pm »

Yes to question 1. This is called Game of Life, it's a zero player game that works in steps where each cell develops deterministically based on its neighbors. Once you set the initial state, it goes on forever, but it may reach a periodic equilibrium.

Don't know why this one doesn't halt, I was also curious to see if it stabilizes.

silverspawn

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Re: The Necro Wars
« Reply #2749 on: February 22, 2022, 12:46:40 pm »

(Copy-Paste dump of the Rules:)

    * Any live cell with 0-1 live neighbors dies ("underpopulation").
    * Any live cell with 2-3 live neighbors survives.
    * Any live cell with 4-8 live neighbors dies ("overpopulation").
    * Any dead cell with exactly 3 live neighbors becomes a live cell ("reproduction").

Where black = live. You can verify that the static things should be static according to the rules; the easiest one is the 2x2 block.
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