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[WestCoastDidds]

It is correct.
I did not vote ash.
I pushed the LL case all day. Never voted anyone else.

on day 4 to be clear.
On day 5 I voted no one until Yuma.

Not certain how my *accurate* not-misinterpretation of how I got to my end point is relevant here though. What is important, is Ash makes a claim.

Okay.  I believe you -- I'm thinking of WCD maybe, who flipflopped?

That would be me, flippity floppity

[MiX]

It is correct.
I did not vote ash.
I pushed the LL case all day. Never voted anyone else.

on day 4 to be clear.
On day 5 I voted no one until Yuma.

Not certain how my *accurate* not-misinterpretation of how I got to my end point is relevant here though. What is important, is Ash makes a claim.

Okay.  I believe you -- I'm thinking of WCD maybe, who flipflopped?

That would be me, flippity floppity

Hey, don't steal my style!

[A Drowned Kernel]

Vote Count 6.1

ashersky (1): MiX
MiX (2): ashersky, WestCoastDidds

Not Voting (3): Dylan32, DatSwan, scolapasta

With 6 alive it takes 4 to lynch. Day Six ends at 12 am forum time May 11th.

[scolapasta]

I have a busy day today, but will be posting some thoughts later today / tonight.

[scolapasta]

OK, so here are my thoughts:

we have one scum.

Either it's one of ash or mix, or it's not. It feels to me that I'm not the only one here who is skeptical of lynching them both, i.e suspecting ti could be one of the "bloc". Otherwise we'd have done that. In fact, we should have dome it yesterday, and I blame myself for accepting the yuma wagon and hammering there. That was a big mistake.

But I suspect it wasn't just that - I suspect it was Swan purposefully steering us that way. Because he knows that if he could get rid of yuma first, it'd be easier to convince us to finish with two lynches of ash and mix.  i.e if we go the other way, and first lynch ash and mix and they are both town, then he may in fact not get us to go yuma at Lylo.

What's my evidence?

well, first the above that I really don't understand why he was so strong to not want to lynch ash or mix. It wasn't a I prefer yuma, it was an "I won't vote for ash or mix".

if I am forced to every lynch between MiX and Ash my mind is made on who it is. I will not be lynching either today.

I mean, what? I get having a strong preference, but there was enough evidence against any of the three. So why so definitive?

Again, because of the above. Get yuma out of the way first and then the ash/mix sell is easy. There was even a secret plan. Biut what was it?

Essentially it prevents a situation from occurring where we get a counter claim in Mylo/Lylo. Here is just an example:

I am, as I have been since Day 4, essentially certain that ASH is the UB here. If not, then I wrong whatever, but there are only 2 remaining people it can be at this point. If we claim today, we GTD that even with a CC Town wins the game. We cannot do that if we wait past today.


The main part of the plan was to have Yuma claim at L-1. If they claimed UB and there was a CC, we lynch Yuma and win either way. Apologies for the plan not being like crazy or anything, but obviously the main idea was to follow skum read on the last day we could afford to on a player that could still fake (or not fake) claim the UB option, thus potentially creating a safe CC situation for us.

Today's fall back plan was always just to claim because it makes no sense not to.

ppe dylan

To have Yuma claim UB? But he was convinced Ash was UB. So why not do the same thing with Ash or MiX, instead? With Ash we'd get the real claim, and have yet one more IC. Or if he's scum, the same plan fits.

Also, I believe he is has been one of those saying "only Ash or Mix" would do this no NK. This really sounds like framing them. I mean the first night, as was argued by MiX actually did make sense for a no NK from scum, and we should have followed through. We didn't because people seemed like it would be a stalemate. But really having an even number of people during the day seems advantageous to scum.

On that note, I'd be fine with a no lynch today again; let's force scum's hand. They no nk, we no lynch. Who cares if it's boring? At some point the mod will have to step in.

Now it could be that it is just one of ash or mix after all (in that I lean towards it being ash). But if it, you know what, that's a little boring, even if we win. But lynching scum!Swan who has secretly been toying with us all game? That to me sounds exciting.

Let's not forget that after D1, Swan wanted us to lynch Dylan vs Raptor. He's the one that led the lynch on LaLight (again when ash and mix were better targets). And then again on Yuma.

Swan, I'm on to you.

Here's my last piece of evidence. Read directly, it seemed at first like townslip... but read another way, it's ingenious:

Post #272

To someone who's played with him, does MiX usually jump his vote around like this?

Of the two wagons, I like Vote: WCD more than LL at this point.

elaborate on why?

OMGUS voting Lalight... has nothing to do with reactions.

Vote: LaLight

vote: Lalight

If that is the choice vote: LaLight

What is there to like about that wagon?

I read lalight and got zero town vibes, or rather no vibes. I'll be honest this game is weird and scumhuntimg is hard. So I am town hunting. Lalight doesn't seem townie.

Yep I agree that LL is scummier than WCD

... then why you on didds?

Because I was on didds from earlier on. And don't like putting people on L2

So wait just clarifying. That was not sarcasm? You think LL is more likely skum than WCD, with 15 hours to DL, and you are voting for the person you find to be more likely skum... bc you were on them already and don’t like putting people at L2?

That is just giving yourself an open door to vote for whoever you want with essentially no reason at all.

Vote: Dylan

Post #272:

Vote: Joseph

Got the players mixed up.

Here he want's us to think that he got the players mixed up? Why? Because scum!Dylan would know Joseph was scum, and not mix them up, but town!Dylan could easily make this mistake. So we read this and subconsciously think he's town.


Well, there's my case? Anyone with me?

(I have Cinco de Mayo dinner plans, but I'll be interested to see what every makes of these arguments some time later tonight.)

[MiX]

Lynch ash first.

Then I can listen.

[Swowl]

1) Regardless of any case you want to make on anyone. It does not change the fact that from a Town POV - doing the UB claim is 100% in Town's favor. Like now. So go ahead and make your weak case, but you still need to claim.

2) none of that is evidence. it is 100% taking things that were done and either forgetting the timeline of events, dropping out key parts that were stated and recorded, or just straight up twisting my words into a misleading way.

[Swowl]

Lynch ash first.

Then I can listen.

Your telling me right now you would rather lynch ash than scola if scola doesn't claim?

[Swowl]

and you can replace "scola vs ash" or anyone really if it helps make my point. If ash had refused to claim I would of said lynch them right there as well.

[MiX]

I forgot scola didn't claim.

Can the UB claim right now holy shit.

[Swowl]

same reasons as Ash specifically first.
I think now it should be specifically scola.
after that 100% population has made a role claim and we can take it from there.

That is my opinion at least.

[Swowl]

OK, so here are my thoughts:

we have one scum.

Either it's one of ash or mix, or it's not. It feels to me that I'm not the only one here who is skeptical of lynching them both, i.e suspecting ti could be one of the "bloc". Otherwise we'd have done that. In fact, we should have dome it yesterday, and I blame myself for accepting the yuma wagon and hammering there. That was a big mistake.

But I suspect it wasn't just that - I suspect it was Swan purposefully steering us that way. Because he knows that if he could get rid of yuma first, it'd be easier to convince us to finish with two lynches of ash and mix.  i.e if we go the other way, and first lynch ash and mix and they are both town, then he may in fact not get us to go yuma at Lylo.

- First example of twisting events and misleading info. a) I did not need to set up a mix/ash scenario... I strongly fought against it. If I had wanted to "set up" ash/mix, the job was done already. Why would I "get yuma out of the way first"? That makes zero sense in the reality of the situation.
- Secondly, I did not in any way create the bloc idea. i said I had an idea, i logged back in, and stated plainly it no longer mattered because of the claims that happened while I was asleep. then someone else created "the bloc" (don't remember who), and put me on it. I was in no way involved in that.

[Swowl]

well, first the above that I really don't understand why he was so strong to not want to lynch ash or mix. It wasn't a I prefer yuma, it was an "I won't vote for ash or mix".

- How in the world do you expect people to swallow this statement? I pushed Yuma's lynch through! Ofc I freeking "preferred yuma to ash/mix". that's what that means man. like what?!?!

if I am forced to every lynch between MiX and Ash my mind is made on who it is. I will not be lynching either today.

I mean, what? I get having a strong preference, but there was enough evidence against any of the three. So why so definitive?

- I am pretty sure i like answered this question to a fairly obvious point like 10-15 posts ago. Also, this is a non-point. As in it literally means nothing.

[Swowl]

To have Yuma claim UB? But he was convinced Ash was UB. So why not do the same thing with Ash or MiX, instead? With Ash we'd get the real claim, and have yet one more IC. Or if he's scum, the same plan fits.

- I actually cannot tell if this part is you twisting or just not understanding the situation. a) Not going to do the thing with MiX, same way as I wouldn't with anyone that already claimed VT, as it would have no effect. b) If I do it with Ash, obviously assuming they claim, I have removed the power ash has to counter claim against skum trying to use UB as a defense. So I picked yuma - because I thought she was skummy for all the case reasons I made, and the choices between outside non-VT claimed players were you and her. She won the skum point game by a landslide.
- Here is a question for you - If I am skum, then yuma, ash, and Mix are all town. why would I like... bother doing anything that you are stating here. Again with this point, but I could of just said "I know who I want to lynch in MiX and Ash" then gone there. Or fuck, I could of said NOTHING and it would of been accepted when I just randomly vote one of them. Why would I do things this way?

[Swowl]

Also, I believe he is has been one of those saying "only Ash or Mix" would do this no NK. This really sounds like framing them.

- more examples of just blinding throwing accusations. How can I be framing them in this instance when everyone already was aware of their 1v1 that they made for each other.
- Secondly, and MOST IMPORTANTLY... incorrect. I cannot recall if I said one of them may be able of doing it, but I certainly never said it was only them... I think. But I am pretty sure that is true. IDK man you are the one building the "case" you go search for it if I said it. Until then, I am going with "I didn't say that".

Let's not forget that after D1, Swan wanted us to lynch Dylan vs Raptor. He's the one that led the lynch on LaLight (again when ash and mix were better targets). And then again on Yuma.
Swan, I'm on to you.

- hahahaha ok. you wanna talk about let's not forget? let me correct you on almost everything here that you wrote.
First off - On day one I was the ONLY driving force to move for the skum Joseph Lynch.
On Day Two - I continued to pound EXACTLY for Joseph on sound logic that even though Raptor was skummy as fuck, it made no sense to lynch Raptor then Joseph, It should be Joseph and then Raptor.
On Day 3 - I started on Dylan because I thought his claim was absolutely asinine. Then, half way through the day, to some points people made, I SWITCHED TO RAPTOR.
-----------So up to that point your skum narrative for me is pretty much...

Step 1 - On Day 1 just chill and wait until the last second when wagons were tied 4 and 4 with WCD (who I can't be skum with if I am skum), and LL (who, why the fuck would I leave that town wagon to my buddy Joseph out of the blue). Then, instead of doing literally anything else at all - I created a brand new in depth case on a brand new unlooked at player (Joseph) and pounded and pursued to to lynch my mate?

Step 2 - I then continue to push it? Like I say nope - still 100% on Joseph, and then we should probably lynch raptor. Cuz that makes sense.

Step 3 - I SWITCH TO RAPTOR, when I could of just kept pounding Dylan?

- So like up until Day 4, I literally choose, not forced, not in a weird spot not anything... I CHOOSE to pick the absolute best route to completely fuck my faction over?

And then yes, to your point LL and Yuma. I have already made my cases for both of them in depth and posted them, so you can reference them if you need to. My argument in general would be that it is a whole hell of a lot harder to find 2 skum in 12-14 players than it is to find 2 town in 6-8 players.



I am not even going to merit your last portion with a response past this, which is the truth - I have no damn clue why I got them mixed up. Just happened. But it was a strange closing point as it was the weakest of all your weak points.

[Swowl]

k done. that would of bugged me until I responded to it.

Happy cinco everyone.

[Dylan32]

Swan, it bugs me a bit when you talk about being the sole reason we pushed for Joseph D1. You voted him at post 273 and gave a single reason. I posted an iso and case at #301, Didds joined the wagon at #304, then you're big case was at #316 and then MiX jumped on the wagon at #305.  So we share the credit for that wagon.  Also, it's intriguing that scola didn't claim and threw shade outside of the apparent 1v1 against the guy with one of the strongest pro-town narratives.

[Swowl]

Fair enough on the credit.
And yes it is weird.

[MiX]

Talking about Swan's all fine and dandy but it's really not for today. I guess it doesn't matter.

I like how we had everyone talk by now and no one claimed UB. Did we miss something?

[Swowl]

Talking about Swan's all fine and dandy but it's really not for today. I guess it doesn't matter.

I like how we had everyone talk by now and no one claimed UB. Did we miss something?

Scola said peace for cinco de drinko.
We are just chatting. Everyone should n same page. Scola is claiming.

[scolapasta]

OK, so here are my thoughts:

we have one scum.

Either it's one of ash or mix, or it's not. It feels to me that I'm not the only one here who is skeptical of lynching them both, i.e suspecting ti could be one of the "bloc". Otherwise we'd have done that. In fact, we should have dome it yesterday, and I blame myself for accepting the yuma wagon and hammering there. That was a big mistake.

But I suspect it wasn't just that - I suspect it was Swan purposefully steering us that way. Because he knows that if he could get rid of yuma first, it'd be easier to convince us to finish with two lynches of ash and mix.  i.e if we go the other way, and first lynch ash and mix and they are both town, then he may in fact not get us to go yuma at Lylo.

- First example of twisting events and misleading info. a) I did not need to set up a mix/ash scenario... I strongly fought against it. If I had wanted to "set up" ash/mix, the job was done already. Why would I "get yuma out of the way first"? That makes zero sense in the reality of the situation.
- Secondly, I did not in any way create the bloc idea. i said I had an idea, i logged back in, and stated plainly it no longer mattered because of the claims that happened while I was asleep. then someone else created "the bloc" (don't remember who), and put me on it. I was in no way involved in that.

on the first, what I'm trying to say is we had ash vs mix (as of D4) and you've steered us away from it for 2 days now, first with LaLight, then with yuma. I am asserting the reason is that it benefits you to keep them both in the game. rather than have had fairly town seeming yuma and the 4 rest of us be the final 5. At that point trying to cast me, wcd, or yuma as scum is MUCH harder than whoever is left of mix or ash. So keep them in the game until the end.

RE: bloc, It was me - and maybe it was a mistake. But I'm not sure saying you did not create or wasn't involved has anything to do with anything. Except as an honest statement that makes it seem like you have credibility, when it's irrelevant.

well, first the above that I really don't understand why he was so strong to not want to lynch ash or mix. It wasn't a I prefer yuma, it was an "I won't vote for ash or mix".

- How in the world do you expect people to swallow this statement? I pushed Yuma's lynch through! Ofc I freeking "preferred yuma to ash/mix". that's what that means man. like what?!?!

if I am forced to every lynch between MiX and Ash my mind is made on who it is. I will not be lynching either today.

I mean, what? I get having a strong preference, but there was enough evidence against any of the three. So why so definitive?

- I am pretty sure i like answered this question to a fairly obvious point like 10-15 posts ago. Also, this is a non-point. As in it literally means nothing.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I am saying that you pushed for yuma instead of either ash or mix. You claimed it was due to a secret reason. And then that reason turned out to be fairly week. (trying to get yuma to claim UB at L-1). I mean, 1) if he was scum, there's no way he claims as that a GTD loss. if he's UB, you've outed him a day early.

My "undigestable" statement was that you stated reasons weren't really sold as you preferred yuma, they were sold as you would not lynch either of the other two. At the time, with strong feelings that the 4 of us were safe, it really should not have mattered much the order of those three, yet you chose to lead a lynch against the one who was seeming most towny. And I am arguing you did that because it benefited you as scum

To have Yuma claim UB? But he was convinced Ash was UB. So why not do the same thing with Ash or MiX, instead? With Ash we'd get the real claim, and have yet one more IC. Or if he's scum, the same plan fits.

- I actually cannot tell if this part is you twisting or just not understanding the situation. a) Not going to do the thing with MiX, same way as I wouldn't with anyone that already claimed VT, as it would have no effect. b) If I do it with Ash, obviously assuming they claim, I have removed the power ash has to counter claim against skum trying to use UB as a defense. So I picked yuma - because I thought she was skummy for all the case reasons I made, and the choices between outside non-VT claimed players were you and her. She won the skum point game by a landslide.
- Here is a question for you - If I am skum, then yuma, ash, and Mix are all town. why would I like... bother doing anything that you are stating here. Again with this point, but I could of just said "I know who I want to lynch in MiX and Ash" then gone there. Or fuck, I could of said NOTHING and it would of been accepted when I just randomly vote one of them. Why would I do things this way?

I've explained why I think you did it that way. I get that it could be very, very wrong. But you can't act like I didn't explain a reason. In fact to make things easy, I'll summarize all my reasons in the post after this, without all these quotes.

Also, I believe he is has been one of those saying "only Ash or Mix" would do this no NK. This really sounds like framing them.

- more examples of just blinding throwing accusations. How can I be framing them in this instance when everyone already was aware of their 1v1 that they made for each other.
- Secondly, and MOST IMPORTANTLY... incorrect. I cannot recall if I said one of them may be able of doing it, but I certainly never said it was only them... I think. But I am pretty sure that is true. IDK man you are the one building the "case" you go search for it if I said it. Until then, I am going with "I didn't say that".

Let's not forget that after D1, Swan wanted us to lynch Dylan vs Raptor. He's the one that led the lynch on LaLight (again when ash and mix were better targets). And then again on Yuma.
Swan, I'm on to you.

- hahahaha ok. you wanna talk about let's not forget? let me correct you on almost everything here that you wrote.
First off - On day one I was the ONLY driving force to move for the skum Joseph Lynch.
On Day Two - I continued to pound EXACTLY for Joseph on sound logic that even though Raptor was skummy as fuck, it made no sense to lynch Raptor then Joseph, It should be Joseph and then Raptor.
On Day 3 - I started on Dylan because I thought his claim was absolutely asinine. Then, half way through the day, to some points people made, I SWITCHED TO RAPTOR.
-----------So up to that point your skum narrative for me is pretty much...

Step 1 - On Day 1 just chill and wait until the last second when wagons were tied 4 and 4 with WCD (who I can't be skum with if I am skum), and LL (who, why the fuck would I leave that town wagon to my buddy Joseph out of the blue). Then, instead of doing literally anything else at all - I created a brand new in depth case on a brand new unlooked at player (Joseph) and pounded and pursued to to lynch my mate?

Step 2 - I then continue to push it? Like I say nope - still 100% on Joseph, and then we should probably lynch raptor. Cuz that makes sense.

Step 3 - I SWITCH TO RAPTOR, when I could of just kept pounding Dylan?

- So like up until Day 4, I literally choose, not forced, not in a weird spot not anything... I CHOOSE to pick the absolute best route to completely fuck my faction over?

And then yes, to your point LL and Yuma. I have already made my cases for both of them in depth and posted them, so you can reference them if you need to. My argument in general would be that it is a whole hell of a lot harder to find 2 skum in 12-14 players than it is to find 2 town in 6-8 players.



I am not even going to merit your last portion with a response past this, which is the truth - I have no damn clue why I got them mixed up. Just happened. But it was a strange closing point as it was the weakest of all your weak points.

I'll have to look for the quote on ash and Mix being the ones to do this. It's possible I misremember. But this "let me correct you on almost everything here that you wrote": I never said anything about Day 1. I did have a typo where I said "after D1" where I meant after D2" but even then that doesn't include D1. So I'm not sure why any D1 stuff is there as a correction. And hopefully it should've been clear that I mean D3 is when you were pushing Dylan over Raptor.

And my point here was just this: scum!swan knows raptors going down. So you try to point us towards Dylan to get one more day out of it. (if we don't lynch dylan, we get an IC). It failed, and when you saw that you switch because otherwise you would look more guilty.

SO next will be the simplifed follow up post. Since this one is probably a mess.

[scolapasta]

OK, simplified version of my case against Swan:
- arranged with scum N0 to go heavy after one of the members for town cred (Joseph)
- after losing Joseph, tried to get rid of IC Dylan before losing teammate, switched when saw it was a lost cause
- pushed for LaLight and Yuma lynches, when Ash and MiX were better targets, because keeping Ash and MiX around would make it easier to win on the last few days
- seeded this all with an early "got the wrong person" post
- I may have been wrong / misremember that you were team "only ash or mix" would try to pull thus off (the no NKs). At least I looked quickly and didn't see it.
- (a new one) tried to get UB to reveal on Day 4
- I still don't understand the reason for wanting to get Yuma to L-1. There's no way as scum they'd claim UB there.

So these last two points, seems like UB hunting to me. Which seems quite scummy.

Look, I get that I could be very wrong on this. But I wanted to get this all out there to see what others thought about any of this. It is only my 2nd game with you guys, so maybe I'm just looking "too hard".

And I understand that it very well doesn't make sense to lynch Swan today over ash/mix (my pref here again is ash). But I definitely wanted to make sure we weren't on autopilot for lynching one today, the other tomorrow.

[scolapasta]

Oh, but #1 preference is still no lynch.

[scolapasta]

other then they could shoot the UB?
Downside of not being able to iso out the UB in terms of read backs. Which at this point, could be fairly important. Though to your point, discretion claim could come into play there.

We have eight alive.  The chance we'll need to iso out anyone is slim.  True random lynches still result in a win for town a lot, no?  Let's assume the NK is stopped every other night:

7 v 1, ML+NK
5 v 1, ML
4 v 1, ML+NK
2 v 1

That's three free mislynches before LYLO.  The chance we swing and miss four times in a row is small.  With no NKs, we get even more.  Even with NKs every night, we just NL that third ML to get to the same LYLO.

(This scenario-running is also clear evidence why not shooting is just a terrible idea by scum.)

So I'm not worried about anything.  I think only those I mentioned should claim.  Heck, they don't even need to if they don't want to and we STILL win based on our efforts.

(And by that I mean, we lynch MiX and win.)

other then they could shoot the UB?
Downside of not being able to iso out the UB in terms of read backs. Which at this point, could be fairly important. Though to your point, discretion claim could come into play there.

We have eight alive.  The chance we'll need to iso out anyone is slim.  True random lynches still result in a win for town a lot, no?  Let's assume the NK is stopped every other night:

7 v 1, ML+NK
5 v 1, ML
4 v 1, ML+NK
2 v 1

That's three free mislynches before LYLO.  The chance we swing and miss four times in a row is small.  With no NKs, we get even more.  Even with NKs every night, we just NL that third ML to get to the same LYLO.

(This scenario-running is also clear evidence why not shooting is just a terrible idea by scum.)

So I'm not worried about anything.  I think only those I mentioned should claim.  Heck, they don't even need to if they don't want to and we STILL win based on our efforts.

(And by that I mean, we lynch MiX and win.)

ash, since I'm still learning how y'all play, why does the 5v1 scenario above not have a NK? Feels like that one lose us a ML there. (note this post was after the first no NK night, but before the 2nd)

[scolapasta]

Whoops, double quoted, accidently.