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[MiX]

what about a mass claim where we agree beforehand that the universal backup (if we have one) claims to be a VT? that way scum can't just off our power roles indiscriminately.

I agree with this thought but still not the massclaim.

Massclaiming is boring and the only people that know if it's a good thing to do are scum.

can you expand on that second thought? how do scum know if massclaiming is protown or not?

i guess the implicit question is: in what situations would massclaiming be good? in what ones would it be bad? if possible, do you have specific example setups for each?

If there's no town PRs, massclaiming is great! You lose nothing and gain everything.

If the setup was rolled properly, massclaiming is bad! You lose everything and gain very little, depending on the setup.

I don't like massclaims. Scum have more information than town. Therefore they must know if we're in the good or bad conditions more than town.

[cayvie]

what about a mass claim where we agree beforehand that the universal backup (if we have one) claims to be a VT? that way scum can't just off our power roles indiscriminately.

I agree with this thought but still not the massclaim.

Massclaiming is boring and the only people that know if it's a good thing to do are scum.

can you expand on that second thought? how do scum know if massclaiming is protown or not?

i guess the implicit question is: in what situations would massclaiming be good? in what ones would it be bad? if possible, do you have specific example setups for each?

If there's no town PRs, massclaiming is great! You lose nothing and gain everything.

If the setup was rolled properly, massclaiming is bad! You lose everything and gain very little, depending on the setup.

I don't like massclaims. Scum have more information than town. Therefore they must know if we're in the good or bad conditions more than town.

huh, your instincts on which scenarios are good are exactly opposite to mine. which makes me go from neutral to bearish on pushing for one. because if we can't agree on what scenarios are protown, then supporting-the-massclaim is NAI, no matter what the actual setup turns out to be.

[Swowl]

what about a mass claim where we agree beforehand that the universal backup (if we have one) claims to be a VT? that way scum can't just off our power roles indiscriminately.

I agree with this thought but still not the massclaim.

Massclaiming is boring and the only people that know if it's a good thing to do are scum.

can you expand on that second thought? how do scum know if massclaiming is protown or not?

i guess the implicit question is: in what situations would massclaiming be good? in what ones would it be bad? if possible, do you have specific example setups for each?

If there's no town PRs, massclaiming is great! You lose nothing and gain everything.

If the setup was rolled properly, massclaiming is bad! You lose everything and gain very little, depending on the setup.

I don't like massclaims. Scum have more information than town. Therefore they must know if we're in the good or bad conditions more than town.

huh, your instincts on which scenarios are good are exactly opposite to mine. which makes me go from neutral to bearish on pushing for one. because if we can't agree on what scenarios are protown, then supporting-the-massclaim is NAI, no matter what the actual setup turns out to be.

Just gonna but into this conversation because I have nothing else to do - I will gladly be the one to do some of the set up math!

This is the "scaling list" of skums overall power:
TTTTTT*** = Goon x2 --------------- Everyone claims VT.
TTTTT*** = Goon x2 ---------------- Everyone claims VT, except for the one town PR who paints a target for skum.
-------- So pretty much on the double Goon option... we learn nothing at all. It is not good, in fact it is probably bad. That is the confusion point I think I am having on that.

Moving on...
TTTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker  ------------- Two town PRs claim,
TTT = 1-Shot Strongman; Roleblocker ---------------- Three town PRs claim
----------------So for 3x and 4x T's, we gain the same information. We learn the existence of a 1shot SM and a skum RB in the game. Where as skum learns who is what... bad still.
Next section...
TT = Strongman; Roleblocker ------------------------- Four town PRs Claim
T = Strongman; Roleblocker -------------------------- Five Town PRs Claim
---------So for that section, we could gain the info that skum has the ability to break through a shot as much as they like. But also, they will know who all the PRs are... so yeah.. probably still neg utility.

0 Ts = Strongman; Roleblocker; 1-Shot Bulletproof****
---------Same, except with the actual jump of if there is a vig that is claimed we might be able to figure something out. But as 0 T's are an outlier, and that is a small upside... so not likely


TLDR;
1) There are a FINITE amount of roles variations that skum could have, whereas there are (not doing the addition) a LOT, of roles Town can have. Claiming without reason, honestly even at L-1 situations for individuals in some spots, is just straightforward anti-town in this set up.
2) Skum can always just take the most straightforward apporach of all and just claim VT across the board. Then, when claim is done, they know who has what, and we have... limited the pool down to the VT claims. They pick off the PRs and we sort through the VTs.... which is like literally the same as playing without the info, except on a slightly higher scale, and of course skum doesn't know who has what.
3) Because of the value scale of skum's potential powers vs the value scale of town's potential powers, every piece of the puzzle that is publicly announced is far more valuable for skum than it is town (i.e. example being - Doctor and Cop claim/flip/whatever. A third Town!PR says "YAY, now I know there is at least a 1 shot SM and a RB in skum". Value that vs skum knowing who the cop and doctor are... it isn't worth it).

So yeah - I am against the mass claim idea.

[cayvie]

huh i see now (thanx swan) that every scenario where follow-the-cop (basically, a full cop and doc) is an option, then scum has a roleblocker and a strongman to bust thru that. so that's the one benefit i saw, and it doesn't work.

what about if instead of just claiming roles, everyone claims "I'm either VT or POWER ROLE"

does that help town at all? the main potential benefit of all this is to lock scum into their fakeclaims early, right? and i think this might do it without actually exposing our power roles.

i guess this could be bad for masons, if we have 'em.

anyway, vote: faust, where is that guy.

[Swowl]

Your logic is sound. Except to the point that scum can always just claim VT which crates a fairly unlikely scenario in regards to isolating claims later on.

Powerrole claiming... i guess like UB claims vt and others claim. But it only has an upside if there are more than 1-2 PRs in town. If there are 2 or less PRs chances are probably about the same field as just going at it straight  no math to back that up - just eyeballing it.

[yuma]

I think my point is that everytime I have ever been mafia I have never actually planned with my teammates on how to coordinate it.

The maths are nice, but only if mafia thought about the maths, came up with a coordinated plan of action and actually performs it. Most scum doesn't do that. At least they didn't in my day. Most scum QTs are like "Hey" "What is up" "Peace" N0. At the most they say, buss me D1.

Going the massclaim route makes scum do something they weren't planning on coordinating with each other. But that is probably all I'll say about it, cause I don't do the maths.

[Dylan32]

I do have to say, I keep forgetting that I actually did join this game since there was a fairly long gap between saying I was in and it starting, so it may take me a few irl days to get back into the habit of checking f.ds more than once every few days, but I'm gonna do my best!

nice! have we played together before? i don't think so. nice to meet you.

I don't think so. Nice to meet you too, and also all the rest of you that I haven't.

Yeah I'm generally against massclaiming, at least this early. I could be wrong, but my gut says it would just be better after we've had a shot of getting info from PRs.

[Swowl]

I think my point is that everytime I have ever been mafia I have never actually planned with my teammates on how to coordinate it.

The maths are nice, but only if mafia thought about the maths, came up with a coordinated plan of action and actually performs it. Most scum doesn't do that. At least they didn't in my day. Most scum QTs are like "Hey" "What is up" "Peace" N0. At the most they say, buss me D1.

Going the massclaim route makes scum do something they weren't planning on coordinating with each other. But that is probably all I'll say about it, cause I don't do the maths.

I mean yeah fair enough can't argue with that. But would you not say that in a scenario where no plan was made that the default mindset for any player as skum (let's say the first one up in claims) would not be to just claim VT?

[faust]

anyway, vote: faust, where is that guy.

I was just going to

Vote: cayvie

and now it looks like OMGUS. Thanks.

[faust]

supporting-the-massclaim is NAI

Indeed it is, and always has been.

I get that we need something to talk about but does it have to be something that won't yield any useful result? We could talk about how cayvie takes some effort to appear helpful without doing anything that really pushes us forward or is at least original.

[faust]

I think my point is that everytime I have ever been mafia I have never actually planned with my teammates on how to coordinate it.

The maths are nice, but only if mafia thought about the maths, came up with a coordinated plan of action and actually performs it. Most scum doesn't do that. At least they didn't in my day. Most scum QTs are like "Hey" "What is up" "Peace" N0. At the most they say, buss me D1.

Going the massclaim route makes scum do something they weren't planning on coordinating with each other. But that is probably all I'll say about it, cause I don't do the maths.

I mean yeah fair enough can't argue with that. But would you not say that in a scenario where no plan was made that the default mindset for any player as skum (let's say the first one up in claims) would not be to just claim VT?

It's one thing to talk about massclaiming, but come on now, we really don't need to be giving out play advice to scum.

[MiX]

It's one thing to talk about massclaiming, but come on now, we really don't need to be giving out play advice to scum.

Ha, Swan is obv!traitor, lynch them!

The only thing I learned with Swan's wall post is that massclaiming gives scum info (wow) and that scum will want to all claim VT. Why they would do this, I have no idea. But hey now I know what to claim, so thanks Swan! Best traitor.

I think my point is that everytime I have ever been mafia I have never actually planned with my teammates on how to coordinate it.

The maths are nice, but only if mafia thought about the maths, came up with a coordinated plan of action and actually performs it. Most scum doesn't do that. At least they didn't in my day. Most scum QTs are like "Hey" "What is up" "Peace" N0. At the most they say, buss me D1.

Going the massclaim route makes scum do something they weren't planning on coordinating with each other. But that is probably all I'll say about it, cause I don't do the maths.

Scum does not plan as much as we think they do, but I'm never taking the chance that someone was there actually putting in effort to try to win against a D1 massclaim.

huh i see now (thanx swan) that every scenario where follow-the-cop (basically, a full cop and doc) is an option, then scum has a roleblocker and a strongman to bust thru that. so that's the one benefit i saw, and it doesn't work.

what about if instead of just claiming roles, everyone claims "I'm either VT or POWER ROLE"

does that help town at all? the main potential benefit of all this is to lock scum into their fakeclaims early, right? and i think this might do it without actually exposing our power roles.

i guess this could be bad for masons, if we have 'em.

Scum only cares if you're "POWER ROLE" or not, so this claim is just as helpful to scum but much, MUCH worse to town. Scummy points for not thinking about things.

Your logic is sound. Except to the point that scum can always just claim VT which crates a fairly unlikely scenario in regards to isolating claims later on.

Powerrole claiming... i guess like UB claims vt and others claim. But it only has an upside if there are more than 1-2 PRs in town. If there are 2 or less PRs chances are probably about the same field as just going at it straight  no math to back that up - just eyeballing it.

Fluff, fluff and helping scum, Swan really wished he was scum this game. Good job, you just gained town points from this.

My vote on scola is still perfect.

[MiX]

supporting-the-massclaim is NAI

Indeed it is, and always has been.

I get that we need something to talk about but does it have to be something that won't yield any useful result? We could talk about how cayvie takes some effort to appear helpful without doing anything that really pushes us forward or is at least original.

Why do you think cayvie wouldn't do this as town? Seems on character for her.

[Joseph2302]

I think my point is that everytime I have ever been mafia I have never actually planned with my teammates on how to coordinate it.

The maths are nice, but only if mafia thought about the maths, came up with a coordinated plan of action and actually performs it. Most scum doesn't do that. At least they didn't in my day. Most scum QTs are like "Hey" "What is up" "Peace" N0. At the most they say, buss me D1.

Going the massclaim route makes scum do something they weren't planning on coordinating with each other. But that is probably all I'll say about it, cause I don't do the maths.

I mean yeah fair enough can't argue with that. But would you not say that in a scenario where no plan was made that the default mindset for any player as skum (let's say the first one up in claims) would not be to just claim VT?

It's one thing to talk about massclaiming, but come on now, we really don't need to be giving out play advice to scum.

Agreed. Also, it wasn't a serious suggestion to mass claim right now

[WestCoastDidds]

supporting-the-massclaim is NAI

Indeed it is, and always has been.

I get that we need something to talk about but does it have to be something that won't yield any useful result? We could talk about how cayvie takes some effort to appear helpful without doing anything that really pushes us forward or is at least original.

Dude, that’s cold.

Vote: faust

[cayvie]

huh i see now (thanx swan) that every scenario where follow-the-cop (basically, a full cop and doc) is an option, then scum has a roleblocker and a strongman to bust thru that. so that's the one benefit i saw, and it doesn't work.

what about if instead of just claiming roles, everyone claims "I'm either VT or POWER ROLE"

does that help town at all? the main potential benefit of all this is to lock scum into their fakeclaims early, right? and i think this might do it without actually exposing our power roles.

i guess this could be bad for masons, if we have 'em.

Scum only cares if you're "POWER ROLE" or not, so this claim is just as helpful to scum but much, MUCH worse to town. Scummy points for not thinking about things.

wanna clarify: i'm literally suggesting that everyone say "I'm VT or cop" or "I'm VT or doctor" or "I'm VT or vigilante"

people with power roles claiming "I'm VT or (my actual power role)" and VT/UB claiming "I'm VT or (made up power role)"

[MiX]

huh i see now (thanx swan) that every scenario where follow-the-cop (basically, a full cop and doc) is an option, then scum has a roleblocker and a strongman to bust thru that. so that's the one benefit i saw, and it doesn't work.

what about if instead of just claiming roles, everyone claims "I'm either VT or POWER ROLE"

does that help town at all? the main potential benefit of all this is to lock scum into their fakeclaims early, right? and i think this might do it without actually exposing our power roles.

i guess this could be bad for masons, if we have 'em.

Scum only cares if you're "POWER ROLE" or not, so this claim is just as helpful to scum but much, MUCH worse to town. Scummy points for not thinking about things.

wanna clarify: i'm literally suggesting that everyone say "I'm VT or cop" or "I'm VT or doctor" or "I'm VT or vigilante"

people with power roles claiming "I'm VT or (my actual power role)" and VT/UB claiming "I'm VT or (made up power role)"

Oh wait this is a good idea! Scum points! If you can't tell, I have a blind spot for reading you.

What would masons claim?

[cayvie]

huh i see now (thanx swan) that every scenario where follow-the-cop (basically, a full cop and doc) is an option, then scum has a roleblocker and a strongman to bust thru that. so that's the one benefit i saw, and it doesn't work.

what about if instead of just claiming roles, everyone claims "I'm either VT or POWER ROLE"

does that help town at all? the main potential benefit of all this is to lock scum into their fakeclaims early, right? and i think this might do it without actually exposing our power roles.

i guess this could be bad for masons, if we have 'em.

Scum only cares if you're "POWER ROLE" or not, so this claim is just as helpful to scum but much, MUCH worse to town. Scummy points for not thinking about things.

wanna clarify: i'm literally suggesting that everyone say "I'm VT or cop" or "I'm VT or doctor" or "I'm VT or vigilante"

people with power roles claiming "I'm VT or (my actual power role)" and VT/UB claiming "I'm VT or (made up power role)"

Oh wait this is a good idea! Scum points! If you can't tell, I have a blind spot for reading you.

What would masons claim?

yeah that was the problem i saw too. it felt awkward for masons. didn't really have a good solution.

i mean maybe it does force masons to basically claim d1, but that's not the worst thing right? seems like they do that fairly frequently anyway. and if you're a VT and someone before you in the claim order claims "vt or Mason" that opens up "vt or Mason" claims to you, right? so it's really only truly terrible if the masons are the last two people to claim.

[MiX]

Thinking about it some more, I don't think it harms scum enough nor helps town enough for the effort in convincing town to go with this plan, so I'm against it.

In fact, it's anti-town. I can expand on this much later in the game if it's necessary. Have some more scummy points.

PPE: Forcing any claim is pretty much the worst case scenario.

[yuma]

vote: mix for saying not thinking things through is scummy. Spit balling is what town does. Throw out ideas and see what sticks. Scum thinks things through carefully because they know more.

[MiX]

vote: mix for saying not thinking things through is scummy. Spit balling is what town does. Throw out ideas and see what sticks. Scum thinks things through carefully because they know more.

The plan I thought cayvie had thought of was insanely bad to the point where cayvie would never say that if she was town, but could if she was scum because then she doesn't need to care if what she's saying makes sense or not.

[faust]

vote: mix for saying not thinking things through is scummy. Spit balling is what town does. Throw out ideas and see what sticks. Scum thinks things through carefully because they know more.

The plan I thought cayvie had thought of was insanely bad to the point where cayvie would never say that if she was town, but could if she was scum because then she doesn't need to care if what she's saying makes sense or not.

But the point is exactly that scum needs to care way more about whether they're making sense than town.

[MiX]

vote: mix for saying not thinking things through is scummy. Spit balling is what town does. Throw out ideas and see what sticks. Scum thinks things through carefully because they know more.

The plan I thought cayvie had thought of was insanely bad to the point where cayvie would never say that if she was town, but could if she was scum because then she doesn't need to care if what she's saying makes sense or not.

But the point is exactly that scum needs to care way more about whether they're making sense than town.

Town!cayvie thinks enough to not say what I thought she was saying. Town wants to be right, so they'll think through things, and cayvie's smarter than to say what I thought she said.

[Swowl]

vote: mix for saying not thinking things through is scummy. Spit balling is what town does. Throw out ideas and see what sticks. Scum thinks things through carefully because they know more.

The plan I thought cayvie had thought of was insanely bad to the point where cayvie would never say that if she was town, but could if she was scum because then she doesn't need to care if what she's saying makes sense or not.

But the point is exactly that scum needs to care way more about whether they're making sense than town.

+1. also MiX... your stream of nonsense posts is obviously off the top of your head. So if "town cares about being elegant and correct", then are you just soft claiming skum here?

[Swowl]

also is MiX trolling me or am I actually missing something in the set up? There cannot be a traitor in this game.. right?