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[yed]

Code: [Select]

Moat, Pawn, Pearl Diver, Fishing Village, Loan, Mining Village, Navigator, Royal Seal, Saboteur, Wharf
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131217/log.5146a736e4b0f922253718ab.1387274556563.txt

Prety standard Fishing Village + Wharf Game. The hard choice is if to buy Loan. I opted for no, but I'm not sure what is better. What do you think?

And I also think the Saboteur buy by my opponent instead of Wharf was mistake.

[yed]

And I hate you Goko!!!! Opponent had around 5300.

[Davio]

Code: [Select]

Moat, Pawn, Pearl Diver, Fishing Village, Loan, Mining Village, Navigator, Royal Seal, Saboteur, Wharf
http://dom.retrobox.eu/?/20131217/log.5146a736e4b0f922253718ab.1387274556563.txt

Prety standard Fishing Village + Wharf Game. The hard choice is if to buy Loan. I opted for no, but I'm not sure what is better. What do you think?

And I also think the Saboteur buy by my opponent instead of Wharf was mistake.

Certainly not, FV+Wharf is pretty darn fast enough that it doesn't need Loan.
You should focus on winning the Wharf split, which is more important than the FV split.

Loan doesn't help you much in getting to $5 more often, but FV's and played Wharves do.
It is just unnecessary to add Loan here.

And of course, a bought Loan is a FV not bought.

[Warfreak2]

Each Wharf draws four cards for you, so trashing barely matters at all.

[yed]

Thanks for replies.

I know that, but is it really right? I never came down to the "draw your deck" state and what is nice in Loan is that it clears the Coppers from next hand and cycles you. And Until the Gold buy when Wharfes are out in the end you are buying FV instead of Silvers so it don't hurt your economy.

[Davio]

Thanks for replies.

I know that, but is it really right? I never came down to the "draw your deck" state and what is nice in Loan is that it clears the Coppers from next hand and cycles you. And Until the Gold buy when Wharfes are out in the end you are buying FV instead of Silvers so it don't hurt your economy.

Well, there really isn't an opportunity for it I think.

With 4/3 I think I'm opening Navigator/Fishing Village with a decent shot of getting to $5 during my reshuffle. Maybe FV/FV, but the FV split is less critical as I mentioned.

Once I'm hitting $3's after my reshuffle, Loan becomes less of an asset and I'll be focused on Fishing Villages to keep my wharves fueled.

If you get 6 Wharves, you only need 3 FV's in theory: Play 3 FV's, play 3 Wharves, next turn get 3 Actions, play 3 Wharves, reshuffle the lot and get the 3 FV's with your other 3 Wharves in hand, etc... It won't work like this in practice, but it's just important to see the Wharf as the major split to win.

By the time you would have had any benefit from an opening Loan, your opponent is likely to have gained at least as much Wharves as you have and maybe won the split.

Note that Silver is not horrible here as it could allow you to get some Wharf/FV buys or even Wharf/Wharf.

[WanderingWinder]

Thanks for replies.

I know that, but is it really right?

Yes.

[SCSN]

Each Wharf draws four cards for you, so trashing barely matters at all.

Not really... you need more Wharfs than Council Rooms or Hunting Grounds to draw your deck.

Wharfs do draw you 4 cards, but it's spread out over 2 turns, and since the "junk" cards you've drawn aren't left out between turns whereas the Wharfs are, if you're going to say "Wharf draws 4 cards", you should also add "but your deck now contains 20 junk cards in stead of 10", which only adds more confusion to an already confusing and misleading statement.

I do agree that most of the time trashing isn't worth it in Wharf games, unless there's a really strong engine that goes beyond a simple Wharf + Village.

[Warfreak2]

If you play one Wharf every turn, then you are drawing four cards from Wharf every turn. That's a pretty clear equivalence with Hunting Grounds/Council Room - the difference is that the first turn in a sequence you play it, you only get two cards, whereas the first turn that you don't play it, you do get two cards. You're also ~40% more likely to have a Wharf to play, since you have two more cards to find it in.

Leaving the Wharf out only really matters when it misses a reshuffle. I don't know where you are going with "your deck now contains 20 junk cards", surely by the same logic it also contains "twice as many" golds and silvers? You could just say that your deck contains half as many Wharves, but still, it only really applies when you're drawing your deck.

[SCSN]

If you play one Wharf every turn, then you are drawing four cards from Wharf every turn. That's a pretty clear equivalence with Hunting Grounds/Council Room

Eh no, to play one Wharf every turn you need to have at least two Wharfs in your deck, whereas you'd need only one HG/CR for the same effect. So treating Wharf as equivalent to HG/CR is like saying that Moat is equivalent to Smithy because playing two Moats has the same effect, which makes zero sense. They are just different cards with different dynamics, and the duration aspect in particular adds quite a bit of tactical nuances to deck-management, all of which you casually ignore when you say it's equivalent to a card that's really quite different and it's precisely those differences that make the card interesting and justify its existence.

[Warfreak2]

You do need at least two Hunting Grounds to play one each turn, unless you're drawing your deck, which is the exception I mentioned. We're clearly talking about different situations.

I don't get it. I made a one-line summary of why Wharf is so effective - it draws you four cards for each play, even if they're spread over two turns - if the argument is that my one-line summary is missing some important details, then try to imagine me with a reaction other than "Incredible! I shall have to reevaluate my whole philosophy!"

[Davio]

Well, a Wharf played this turn and a Wharf duration give you a different amount of cards.

If you have a 5 card hand and play Wharf, you just have 6 cards, not 7.
If you start with a 5 card hand and a Wharf from last turn, you have a 7 card hand.

So Wharf nets you +1 this turn and +2 the next turn, while Hunting Grounds just nets you +3 this turn.
Wharf's main strength is the duration part as starting your turn with more cards makes it the more easier to connect Wharves and Villages whereas with something like Hunting Grounds you can easily get stuck without a Village in hand if your deck isn't filled with them.

[Puddleglumm]

Thanks for replies.

I know that, but is it really right? I never came down to the "draw your deck" state and what is nice in Loan is that it clears the Coppers from next hand and cycles you. And Until the Gold buy when Wharfes are out in the end you are buying FV instead of Silvers so it don't hurt your economy.

One thing that came to my mind is that if at any time loan triggers a reshuffle when you have a wharf out from last turn, it's probably a net negative for you. A deck with one less copper can't be better than missing a wharf play, let alone multiples, right?

[Polk5440]

I remember asking a similar question to myself about whether to add a Lookout to a Wharf-Fishing Village deck. I simulated it in Geronimoo's simulator and the answer is NO. I don't remember the percentages, though.

Is Lookout bad because the sim was bad at knowing when to shuffle? I couldn't answer that question. I am not good enough at using simulators to figure it out.

[DG]

Both lookout and loan should be used when you need the trashing and the early loss of income is compensated by a strong return later. The income loss from these cards may seem minor but it is actually quite significant.

[gamesou]

Here Loan has this little trick that whenever you play it after a Navigator, it behaves almost as a Cartographer to set up your next turn. Maybe getting an initial Navigator and a late Loan can give a tiny advantage ?

[Jorbles]

Is it at all threatening for your opponent to buy a Sab once the Wharves are out? Or do you just laugh because they should be buying green at that point?

[matste]

Is it at all threatening for your opponent to buy a Sab once the Wharves are out? Or do you just laugh because they should be buying green at that point?

I'm pretty sure that buying a Sabouteur when 2 piles are out and your opponent has plenty +buys is a mistake. Wharf games often end on piles. It's very easy to buy 6 Estates/Pawns/Pearl Divers in one turn. Sabotaging 4+ card will only help your opponent in 3-piling. Also, duration cards are slightly harder to destroy by Saboteur. Of course, if you are way behind, sabotaging his Provinces might be the only way to win.