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[Voltaire]

vote: nkirbit

I did a re-read of nkirbit after seeing yuma's case on him (which includes my D1 case) and Jorble's reminder of Voltgloss's take on him. What sticks out in the re-read the most is nkirbit retroSheeping Robz on ash. He also outright lies about UoS's play and has no defense when I point it out (technically he makes one, but it is mostly just to repeat his claim):

Then, this happens:

But UoS trying to fan the flames on Ashersky while making it appear like he's not the one doing so is definitely scummy.

In general, I agree with Jorble's view on UoS.  He has been trying to lead the conversation in a direction to make someone else point out a scummy thing someone else did without having to do it himself.  So he doesn't get his hands dirty.  Examples are posts #255, 257, 265, 284, 291.  He seems very reluctant to actually say, "I find X scummy!".  This is quite possibly a scum trait.

Vote: UmbrageOfSnow

This is just flat-out incorrect, as pointed out by UoS himself, and another sheep. Take it all together, and vote: nkirbit.

It wasn't just flat-out incorrect.  My point was that UoS was pointing out things that people might find scummy about Ashersky while simultaneously claiming that he didn't felt him scummy.  I felt that it could be scum trying to paint a player as scummy without getting their hands dirty, and I felt that other posts he made could be interpreted that way.

UoS pointing out that he was clear that he didn't find Ashersky scummy doesn't prevent my point.  It may be incorrect as shown by his claim, but a lot of the day1 cases we make are incorrect.  But I do maintain that it's a reasonable interpretation of his actions I pointed out.

nkirbit does have some pro-town posts, like this one where he considers going back to the 3 PR thing

I think so, unfortunately.  If you get NKed, we don't find out which PR you can use, and whichever scum kills you can safely use it as a fakeclaim.

I think I would prefer all 3 PRs claiming generic PR, honestly.  So I think we should as a group decide which we want.

Don't claim this second, actually.  I think we should vote or something on if we want the other two PRs to claim or you to fakeclaim.

but his lurking D2 tips this over enough for me. He fits into the acti-lurking window (not the best fit, but one of several). I still don't think that his not-talking-about-theory-talking-about-theory action was scummy.

This is basically me agreeing with yuma and Robz and...mail-mi.

What I thought initially threw a wrench into this was mail-mi (yet again!) sheeping the previous votes on nkirbit and hopping on the wagon, but when I re-read mail-mi I realized that if he's the SK everything fits.

Still waiting on the rest of Eevee's reads.

Ashersky offhandedly votes, giving no specific indication of reason, though likely this is a slip-vote.

Also, vote: voltgloss.  Have we had an official vote count recently?

Scumpoints for the offhanded vote, while focusing on defending himself from Voltaire

Actually I was one of ash's stronger supporters D1. Do you mean Voltgloss?

Also please answer this question: who do you actually want to lynch?

PPE: Eevee made another big post.

[Voltaire]

My strongest scumread is clear however, and that's Robz.

Eevee, what do you make of this?

It's really appropriate though! I am literally sticking my tongue out at you, because we got you on a scumslip! And now you are trying--politely, I might add--to set me up for mislynch.

How is this possible? You are saying that if Voltgloss is scum, which most of us thought at the time, he is trying to set you up for a mislynch. That doesn't work - Volt, as town, knows that he is going to flip town and is trying to send his strongest read before dying (good town play). You, thinking Volt is scum, claim he is setting you up for a mis-lynch. But you should be thinking that he will flip scum, in which case we will ignore whatever he says. In what universe do we sheep dead scum?

I was thinking that he would flip scum, so we would say, "Okay, Volt is scum, who is he aligned with? Well, what has he done. You know, he was really anti-Robz at the end. Irrationally anti-Robz. Wanna bet Robz is his partner and he was doing that to make us think Robs was the one person who wasn't his partner?" It's WIFOM (there's an expression we haven't sen in a while...).

[Eevee]

I applauded you for the catch at the time, but Robz's explanation is an okay save. I don't believe anyone of us is that much smarter than the others that they could expect to effectively wifom town like that though, so I don't agree with the narrative Robz was proposing.

[Voltaire]

I applauded you for the catch at the time, but Robz's explanation is an okay save. I don't believe anyone of us is that much smarter than the others that they could expect to effectively wifom town like that though, so I don't agree with the narrative Robz was proposing.

Which means you find him scummy nonetheless?

[nkirbit]

Sorry, I'm caught up with a lot of work and won't be on for any extended period of time tonight.  I will say that I'm most suspicious of Robz for describing me as attempting to appear active while contributing nothing at all, because that's simply not true.  I posted shortly after the start of day2, and then didn't post at all until yesterday, when I said I would be around tomorrow.

I was not around, at all.  Robz trying to suggest that I was trying to appear active while really not contributing day2 is completely false, as I literally did not have a post during the time he's accusing me of this behavior.

Mail-Mi sheeped on pretty heavily, but that's classic mail-mi.

I don't quite get Yuma's case, having skimmed it.  Yeah, others were suspicious of Ashersky, and yeah I shared some opinions with people, but how do you pick me out as the scummy one there as opposed to, say, Robz.

[Eevee]

I applauded you for the catch at the time, but Robz's explanation is an okay save. I don't believe anyone of us is that much smarter than the others that they could expect to effectively wifom town like that though, so I don't agree with the narrative Robz was proposing.

Which means you find him scummy nonetheless?

I do. That interaction isn't a big part of why, though.

[liopoil]

I went and read robz's posts.

- he has 3 theory talk posts early D1. none of them mention the vig, so that is consistent with him forgetting to rant about it.

-

Mail mi always comes across as scummy--but he has actually been scum a good amount of times. He is also the one person I can name who has made scumslips that did turn out to be legitimately scumslips.

He's essentially always someone I am willing to lynch.

seems to suggest he doesn't support scumslips in general, just for mail-mi.

- he's taken authority a few times. examples: imploring ash to contribute, saying no hammers until UoS claims, saying no hammers until everyone has a chance to counterclaim chairs, scolding people for not talking (a lot)

How are those slips...?

his first reaction to shraeye's case. then when he explained himself "oh. woah." then "Yeah, forget the rest of your case. That's... that's significant." then "Explanation immediately, please, Voltgloss. Don't take time to think."

Ah, Voltgloss. I'm sorry, man. I really hate to lynch you Day 1 in your first game back. But... I just don't think we can overlook this. And I know you understand that.

With a heavy heart, Vote: Voltgloss

Good work, shraeye.

he kinda apologizes for lynching him...

Well, let me leave you all with this.  I don't expect anyone to believe this now, but if you lynch me, perhaps you'll come back to this after my flip.

Vote: Robz

Robz planted the idea of "early VT claim = scummy" regarding ash.  But he has not pushed that line of thought heavily - not nearly like he did in the game where pingpongsam did the same thing and got crucified for it.  Instead, he let me push it instead.  This is likely scum!Robz, who likes nothing more than to see me make his cases for him. 

I think this is a weak case against me. First of all, I was wrong about PPS, so why would I push a similar case as hard this time? Now, I think there are better reasons to think it's true this time. I have pushed the case, I mean, yuma and I were both making it and saying "also, what he said." Then ash disappeared and it was pointless arguing with someone who wasn't here. I'm not pushing it so hard because, meh, Day 1 participation is not something I do a lot of anymore? And also ash seemed likely to get lynch without me like really hammering it home? And also now I'm less sure, and pretty just focused on UoS getting back here.

Of course, what I think you may be doing is setting it up so that when you flip scum, people will look at who you voted for, wonder if you were distancing from a partner, and put me in trouble.

I don't think this is a great case - but it's an important interaction to point out.

- I think he went over the top in his anti-vig shot thing D2.

- so many of his post are double posts, a continuation of what he said in his most recent post. I can totally see anyone thinking of something they should have said in the last post, but still. I don't really believe that scum inflate their post counts, but if they ever do, this is it.

-

and then there are these

I invite you to look then.

Why is everyone so quiet?

Come out scum. Say hi.

COme on, let's pile on some lurkers.

This is bad. Everyone should feel bad.

and these

I think a post count would be really illustrative. People did not post AT ALL this weekend, which is okay, but I expected things to pick up more today. I bet scum are lurking hardcore.

But who is being quiet today? I'm talking. You are talking. Voltaire is taking. Liopoil just said some stuff. That's all that sticks out to me.

yeah, that's a lot of going after lurkers.

Anyway, not all the stuff I quoted is scummy, but a lot of it is. Vote: Robz888

My strongest scumread is clear however, and that's Robz. Admittedly it's mostly for stuff that happened day 1

Interested to see what that stuff is. is it the same stuff as voltgloss?

[Eevee]

It's Voltgloss's case which I agree with, the fact that majority of his posts talk about things that have little or very little to this game or people's alignments here and his very fishy explanations for Voltgloss's case on him. He really really really is lacking in original content, in my opinion.

I look at things Robz has done in this game, first he was not posting anything at all (not towny), then he started posting, first long posts not about this game (not towny), lately short posts not about this game or blaming others for not moving the game forward (not towny)  then wanting to go after lurkers once his own post count isn't at the bottom anymore (not towny). A dead townie suspected him, I myself got a bad feeling about him already on post #404 and nothing I've seen has made that feeling disappear.

[yuma]

I don't quite get Yuma's case, having skimmed it.  Yeah, others were suspicious of Ashersky, and yeah I shared some opinions with people, but how do you pick me out as the scummy one there as opposed to, say, Robz.

Let me know when you haven't skimmed it and have questions afterward.

[yuma]

I also have somewhat of a bad feeling about yuma, he is putting in an admirable amount of effort but I don't really agree with his conclusions or cases like I usually do.

Do you normally though? I feel like you and I are generally on opposite sides of things...

Recent games....

Harry Potter: I voted for you toward the end obviously you wouldn't agree with that and we both ended up on chairs because I was desperate for a lynch. Lynches after that were fairly obvious.

B2B: you didn't join me for either of the votes on robz or liopoil (you subbed into that game day2)

Mean Girls: we were scum together and you did agree with me a fair amount... scum buddying!

Pirates: we were together for the Arch lynch early and EFHW and mail-mi day2 but never on the same end of day lynch wagon. Then I suspected you as well day3 once again.

Bankers: I am not going to look through that monster.

But you get the idea.... I am not sure you agree with my conclusions as often as you think you do, except when we are scum together. Why do you think that is?

[Eevee]

Your reputation might be hurting you. I feel these days myself and others as well are just very paranoid of getting fooled by scum yuma again. I naturally trust you way less than most others, thinking "man, what if he is pulling one over me again, that would hurt my ego..". It's the price you have to pay for playing some very strong scum games, I guess.

But I didn't even necessarily mean the end conclusions and votes, more like general perceptions of events. I haven't thought "wow, yuma makes a good point here!" in this game as often as I would have expected to given the amount of work you've put into your rereads especially today.

[yuma]

Your reputation might be hurting you. I feel these days myself and others as well are just very paranoid of getting fooled by scum yuma again. I naturally trust you way less than most others, thinking "man, what if he is pulling one over me again, that would hurt my ego..". It's the price you have to pay for playing some very strong scum games, I guess.

It is a price I am willing to pay, but it is also something that I would like to be acknowledged by others. So thanks for acknowledging it.

But I didn't even necessarily mean the end conclusions and votes, more like general perceptions of events. I haven't thought "wow, yuma makes a good point here!" in this game as often as I would have expected to given the amount of work you've put into your rereads especially today.

I do think that lately I have somewhat drifted from the majority on lots of things... claiming, ideas on how to scumhunt, opinions on RVS. I don't know. I think sometimes I tend to drift toward the minority views just as my personality (being a liberal in a very conservative community for example) so maybe that is happening here. But mostly I think I have been noticing that mafia has been winning more games of late (although town is on a nice mini-streak here) and that because of that we need to switch up how we think about the game and as such some of my views are changing and evolving. Maybe that is part of it. But I feel like you felt the same way with me in Harry Potter... remember your "Remember SCIENCE" argument?

[nkirbit]

Yuma, it just looks like I'm being found scummy for sharing opinions that others have had.  I think Jorbles presented a good case on UoS, so I voted there, and I was uneasy about Ashersky, so I pushed that case.  It's kind of odd to me that I'm scummy for the Ashersky case despite being the first one there.. since had others not followed onto Ash, I wouldn't have been scummy, and it's not my fault what others do.  I found Ash scummy but wasn't able to clearly communicate why, so kind of used other's explanations.

But I don't get why you find me scummy for this but not Robz.  Robz is voting for me right now, as are others.  Robz was also suspicious of Ashersky yesterday.  How am I scummy but not him?

Vote: Robz.  Partly because Voltgloss was suspicious of him, and partly because of the bit where he accuses me of acti-lurking in a thread that I was completely ignoring.

[nkirbit]

As regards to the case you posted by Voltaire:  What I said about UoS was, I maintain, a reasonable interpretation, and calling it "Flat out incorrect" with the implication that I was trying to build a mislynch on UoS is simply, well, flat out incorrect.  I've stated this before.

[Voltaire]

I think Jorbles presented a good case on UoS, so I voted there, and I was uneasy about Ashersky, so I pushed that case.  It's kind of odd to me that I'm scummy for the Ashersky case despite being the first one there.. since had others not followed onto Ash, I wouldn't have been scummy, and it's not my fault what others do.  I found Ash scummy but wasn't able to clearly communicate why, so kind of used other's explanations.

You sheeped a bad case. You do not get towncred for that. And the bold is a misrepresentation of why and others I think you're scummy re: ash - you found him scummy for a completely unconvincing reason and then sheeped others when your bad reasons clearly weren't cutting it.

[nkirbit]

Because my initial read on Ash was based on a feeling, rather than hard evidence.  If I have a feeling that a player is scum, and doesn't feel towny to me, I don't think it's unreasonable to look for evidence to support that.  I just had a gut feeling that Ash's presentation of his case was that of a scum member.  Of course no one was listening to my gut feeling, I wouldn't buy someone else's gut feeling.  But I did try and figure out why I was getting that feeling.

[Eevee]

Well, there is the yuma I completely agree with again!

You are not my preferred lynch, and if I had to pinpoint why I don't have a town read on you, I couldn't articulate it any better. I tend to always have a huge town read on anyone who leads the town and puts in the effort (Voltgloss yesterday, until the 'slip'.. sigh..), so I thought the fact I don't feel that way about you know was noteworthy even if I don't mean to pursue it any further at this point.

[yuma]

Yuma, it just looks like I'm being found scummy for sharing opinions that others have had.  I think Jorbles presented a good case on UoS, so I voted there, and I was uneasy about Ashersky, so I pushed that case.  It's kind of odd to me that I'm scummy for the Ashersky case despite being the first one there.. since had others not followed onto Ash, I wouldn't have been scummy, and it's not my fault what others do.  I found Ash scummy but wasn't able to clearly communicate why, so kind of used other's explanations.

But I don't get why you find me scummy for this but not Robz.  Robz is voting for me right now, as are others.  Robz was also suspicious of Ashersky yesterday.  How am I scummy but not him?

kinds looks like you still have only skimmed it....

Ok. Here is what I am saying.

If you remember in B2B I was able to pinpoint both you and liopoil for doing something that I found to be scummy (pushing an easy lynch on mail-mi). We lynched you day1 for it. You were town. However, that didn't stop me from pressing the idea that liopoil was scummy. He was scum. I argued that it didn't matter that he had done something that someone else who was town (nkribit). Just because a town player did it doesn't make him town as well, in fact it makes him scummy. I didn't coin the phrase then, but I am now. I am calling it mirroring.

That is what I am accusing you of doing and I think it is a tactic that mafia does. I have been able to catch mafia twice with it now that I am specifically aware of and there are probably cases that I am not aware of because I haven't really been looking for it specifically until now. First there was a case in MVIII where a player named Captain_Frisk was mafia and I was town. Throughout the day we mirrored each other very closely on our major reads. For most of the day I read him as town, erroneously thinking that if I was doing something as town, it would be silly to accuse someone else for doing the same thing! Eventually we figured it out and lynched him. I don't think C_Frisk was doing it intentionally. Rather it was just a natural thing to do. Not really sheep, but just to continue with a read as long there was another townie to tag along with (safety in numbers idea).

I think liopoil did the same thing with you in B2B and I think you are doing the same thing here.

Now what separates you from Robz?

The answer is that I think you have been mirroring both me and Robz. If you look at my post with the quotes it shows you continuing your read and becoming more assure of it and mirroring our reasons for your read as the game progresses. I think that is the difference and what stands out to me.

[nkirbit]

Yuma, not addressing the case itself but more of it's structure, that only seems to function as a case against me if both you and Robz are town.  I understand why you would buy that case, and I understand why Robz would buy that case, perhaps.  But are you worried about others sheeping onto that case?  Because it seems to me that they would have to be saying, "Okay, if we assume Yuma is town, and we assume Robz is town, (and heck, we assume that Ash was town, because I think there are issues with the case is he wasn't), then Nkirbit has a decent chance of being scum."  I think that those are a lot of assumptions to be making in order to get to a case that could be wrong even if the assumptions are met, and would be worried about those sheeping your case.

[Eevee]

Oh, well, now I get the nkirbit case, it's a good thing you restated it. That isn't half bad! Especially because mirroring isn't a thing we've talked about earlier really, so scum wouldn't think to avoid doing it.

Also hey I remember mafia VIII! I think it was actually me who realized the striking similarities in the reads you and frisk had. If I recall correctly, I read you scummier for it, but others disagreed and somehow a wagon formed on Frisk and I abandoned my townread on him and threw in the hammer vote. I was phone posting and I remember exactly where I was at the time of the hammer, Frisk flipping scum felt GREAT until you vigged me (a hidden IC) the following night.. Oh, sorry for the derail, a trip town the memory lane.

[Eevee]

Rather, that's the kind of creative case I've grown to expect from town yuma. I still think robz is scummier so I'm not super sold on it (two scum teams though), but I can follow your logic and the narrative you build generally makes a lot of sense.

[nkirbit]

By the way, yuma, your one example of me mirroring you is on the question, "Why would scum!Ash be doing this?".  That is very obviously the answer... your response was far from some revolutionary breakthrough that no one else could have possibly come up with themselves.

[Voltaire]

Yuma, not addressing the case itself but more of it's structure, that only seems to function as a case against me if both you and Robz are town.  I understand why you would buy that case, and I understand why Robz would buy that case, perhaps.  But are you worried about others sheeping onto that case?  Because it seems to me that they would have to be saying, "Okay, if we assume Yuma is town, and we assume Robz is town, (and heck, we assume that Ash was town, because I think there are issues with the case is he wasn't), then Nkirbit has a decent chance of being scum."  I think that those are a lot of assumptions to be making in order to get to a case that could be wrong even if the assumptions are met, and would be worried about those sheeping your case.

Why are you talking directly to yuma so much?

I am somewhat nervous that mail-mi (my read is scum) and yuma (my read is nyergh) are also voting for you, but I feel a bit better about townRobz after you voted for him (he's voting for you...). There are multiple scum teams - nobody has to "assume" the alignment of three other players for you to be scum.

[yuma]

Yuma, not addressing the case itself but more of it's structure, that only seems to function as a case against me if both you and Robz are town.  I understand why you would buy that case, and I understand why Robz would buy that case, perhaps.  But are you worried about others sheeping onto that case?  Because it seems to me that they would have to be saying, "Okay, if we assume Yuma is town, and we assume Robz is town, (and heck, we assume that Ash was town, because I think there are issues with the case is he wasn't), then Nkirbit has a decent chance of being scum."  I think that those are a lot of assumptions to be making in order to get to a case that could be wrong even if the assumptions are met, and would be worried about those sheeping your case.

I didn't really take ashersky's alignment into view here and I don't necessarily think that I needed to. I mean if he is mafia then it does raise some questions, he most likely isn't the SK, so that is a point... Maybe I should have. But that is hard to do as we dont' know what he alignment is.

As for Robz. Again, I don't think I assumed Robz was town. Specifically I reread some players, yourself included and that was what jumped out to me as I reread. I noted all the interactions I could find between all players and the reads on ash and noticed that nkirbit, yuma and robz were the pushers of ash. I noticed that our opinions were often similar and looked more into it and felt that you were doing something that I had recently begun to notice and look for. I know this isn't "standard scum hunting" but I don't scum hunt that way because mafia knows we will scum hunt that way.

as for being worried about people sheeping my case. Too an extent... but if I believe I am right about something I shouldn't stop believing I am right just because people agree with me... what sort of backward logic is that?

[yuma]

By the way, yuma, your one example of me mirroring you is on the question, "Why would scum!Ash be doing this?".  That is very obviously the answer... your response was far from some revolutionary breakthrough that no one else could have possibly come up with themselves.

I never said my post was a revolutionary breakthrough