Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Witherweaver]

However, is scum were to use a Bus Driver to protect themselves from yuma, the protection only ever decreases their chances to be killed if they Bus Drive yuma/scum player, yes? But arguing that the confusion we have is due to Bus Driving would imply that they Bus Drover WW/scum player...

Hah, you're right, that's what they do if they have a Bus Driver. Protect themselves by making yuma kill himself if he hits scum.

Less convincing, more possibility of them using it elsewhere... but doing WW/scum player makes no sense to me here.

I was thinking for investigation protection, though I suppose Yuma makes more sense there too.  Unless they were possibly afraid of Yuma being third party.

[Ampharos]

50 bucks there's no redirection in this game.  Knowing what I know about the roles, there probably along the lines of 5-8 VTs, and to me it is a long shot that with this type of set up, scum was given a re-director.  Course, I've never played an Ash game before, so there could be a lot more than I'm expecting. 

Something is off here.

WW's claim reads scummier than Faust's.  It's just too darn convenient for a role as scum.  I believe I was reading faust as playing differently, which he was, if he has this role.  There is a very simple explanation for all this: WW is scum, and killed ss last night.  He breadcrumbed early to protect himself from exactly this type of scenario.

Vote: WW

[Teproc]

Ok, let's recap.

1) There is no redirecting, one of {faust, Witherweaver} is scum.

2) Redirection exists.

- If it's town redirection, they should probably claim ? I guess ? I don't know, ou figure it out, town redirection PR you.

- If it's Bus Driver, faust's scenario (scum bus drives one of them with yuma to protect him) seems much better than randomly bus driving WW and a scum player. Like, maybe they thought that particualr scum player was likely to be investigated and they bus drove with WW because it's nice to get rid of WW... Is that better than the faust scenario ? If they really think they'll be investigated, maybe. So, 2.7 would be a suspect there, yuma too.

- If it's some other kind of target-based redirection, I'm not sure. Need to think about that more.

- If it's redirection that affects the player doing the action, they'd have targeted yuma, so that's out. Unless yuma is scum, but even then, randomly redirecting faust to WW is so unlikely.

PPE : 3

[faust]

WW's claim reads scummier than Faust's.  It's just too darn convenient for a role as scum.  I believe I was reading faust as playing differently, which he was, if he has this role.  There is a very simple explanation for all this: WW is scum, and killed ss last night.  He breadcrumbed early to protect himself from exactly this type of scenario.

Vote: WW

This is what my head is telling me. My gut says WW is town, but all the scenarios in which he is seem so contrived.

[Teproc]

WW's claim reads scummier than Faust's.  It's just too darn convenient for a role as scum.  I believe I was reading faust as playing differently, which he was, if he has this role.  There is a very simple explanation for all this: WW is scum, and killed ss last night.  He breadcrumbed early to protect himself from exactly this type of scenario.

Vote: WW

This is what my head is telling me. My gut says WW is town, but all the scenarios in which he is seem so contrived.

Same here.

[2.71828.....]

I mean, I am just thinking flavor and I could totally see scum being Loki or something with a redirection power of some sort

[Witherweaver]

50 bucks there's no redirection in this game.  Knowing what I know about the roles, there probably along the lines of 5-8 VTs, and to me it is a long shot that with this type of set up, scum was given a re-director.  Course, I've never played an Ash game before, so there could be a lot more than I'm expecting. 

Something is off here.

WW's claim reads scummier than Faust's.  It's just too darn convenient for a role as scum.  I believe I was reading faust as playing differently, which he was, if he has this role.  There is a very simple explanation for all this: WW is scum, and killed ss last night.  He breadcrumbed early to protect himself from exactly this type of scenario.

Vote: WW

Uh, what?  This makes no sense.  How is this convenient?  How could I possibly predict this scenario so early?

[Teproc]

WW, why did you target Hydrad ?

[yuma]

Redirection roles I can think of:

Redirector: a role that causes all actions taken on a particular Night by a specific player to target a specific second player instead of whatever their original target was.

Deflector: a role that takes all actions that target one player at Night, and redirects them so that they target a second player instead.

Bus Driver: a role that can choose to switch two players each night. Thus, any night action performed on a switched player will affect the other player targeted by the Bus Driver. The Bus Driver's night choices are only valid for that same night.

Nexus: a player that passively redirects players who target it to a random other player. Kills cannot be redirected in this way, so as to prevent the Nexus from being unkillable.

Nexus variant: a role that allows a player to chose another player on which all actions that night will affect

Lightning Rod passively redirects every Night Action to itself. This includes the Mafia's kill as well as all investigations, protections, and so forth.

And I know there are others... Mafia scum is being weird. Couldn't find the nexus variant I was thinking of above...

Plus any changes or differences that ash may or may not have included in the setup.

[Witherweaver]

WW, why did you target Hydrad ?

Originally I submitted Yuma, the thought being in that he could potentially be caught in a lie, or possibly half verify his claim.  (Say, he claimed to use his power but there was only one kill, and not from him.)  I decided to change it, though.  My main thought on Hydrad was that he was the kind of guy to claim VT as scum in a game like this.   He was also not very present yesterday and I had no indication towards town or scum.   He'd probably be one of the more likely people to perform a kill on the scum team, too, with getting little attention.

I also expected Yuma to shoot, and I figured the kill flavor would verify him, so my result wouldn't mean a lot.

[yuma]

WW, why did you target Hydrad ?

He'd probably be one of the more likely people to perform a kill on the scum team, too, with getting little attention.

In GOP, we had Hydrad perform the NK because he was less likely to be blocked or targeted for investigation... Fascinating that this fds meta is starting to adapt toward that trend. Cyclical and whatnot

[Teproc]

Huh, didn't know Deflector. That goes back to my initial Bus Driver scenario since it's not reciprocal.

This being a normal game, I have my doubts about Nexus, though... there was one in MU, an ash-modded normal game, I think.

[Teproc]

Besides Nexus is irrelevant right ? It would mean one of them is lying, so that gets us back to square one. Same with Lightning Rod.

So it's

1) One of them is scum

2) The faust Bus Driver scenario : town!WW gets bus driven with scum to protect that scum from investigation/frame WW

3) The Teproc Deflector scenario : town!WW gets bus driven with scum to protect that scum for yuma's shot and kill a dangerous townie.

[Teproc]

Shouldn't have attached playernames to those scenario, that's confusing.

[Witherweaver]

Huh, didn't know Deflector. That goes back to my initial Bus Driver scenario since it's not reciprocal.

This being a normal game, I have my doubts about Nexus, though... there was one in MU, an ash-modded normal game, I think.

I was the Nexus in MU, though I never really got to use it.  We were partners there, too.

I think Nexus could happen here, if it were Hydrad.  I target Hydrad, get randomly redirected to Silverspawn.  Faust's result on me is true, my result from Hydrad, really being Silverspawn, makes sense.  (I think Nexus!Hydrad would not be seen targetting Silver, so only I would.)

[Witherweaver]

Scum may also not want to kill Yuma because it's an extra kill that is more likely to hit town than scum.  May be worth keeping him until later on.

[Teproc]

Deflector actually doesn't do what I thought. So

1) One of them is scum

2) Both of them are town, WW gets bus driven with scum to protect against investigations

3) Both of them are town, Hydrad is a Nexus, hilarity ensues.

[Haddock]

I've been reading along today, but been focussing on other things, hence my silence.

My thoughts:

I believe WW here, I think.  As scum, the temptation to make a fakeclaim that fits faust's claim better would be huge, I think.  You surely wouldn't want to rely on town assuming that redirection happens.

On which note.  Redirection is possible here, and I don't personally want to completely discount the possibility of a redirect targetting faust specifically.  I know yuma is a better target, but it's a gamble with a fairly decent upside.  This assumes that scum had good reason to believe that faust had a PR.  Well, lots of people had noticed faust's different play yesterday, if scum saw that, PR would be the obvious conclusion.

On the other hand, if we assume there was no redirection, I'm more inclined to believe WW than faust - see above.

I think I agree with RR (!) that there may be a decent percentage of roles here.  A normal game is supposed to have at least one VT, that's all, everyone else could have a role, which would make sense in a superhero themed game.  It's not Role Madness if the roles are fairly simple.

The nexus!Hydrad thing is interesting.  I could see a Loki character having that role.

PPE.  4) one or both is scum, two scum teams...?  Long shot, obv.

[Teproc]

I'm assuming only one scum team until there is evidence to the contrary (ie two NKs).

Nexus!Hydrad is insanely unlikely. Not only does there need to be a Nexus and it needs to be Hydrad, the probability of it redirecting perfectly to explain all this is infinitesimal.

I'm going back to 1)... but you're right, WW's claim is too weird to be fake. I'm really lost.

[EgorK]

Interesting how WW target (Hydrad) got silent lately. Need to think about it

[Haddock]

Interesting how WW target (Hydrad) got silent lately. Need to think about it

Lately?

[Witherweaver]

Who hasn't chimed in yet?  Just Hydrad?

[yuma]

And again I feel like I should throw in words like "invented" and "modified" as we have already seen some of that...

We shouldn't rely on that but should take it into consideration that we may not know of a possible explanation because there has never been one like that before, so ultimately I need to go back to my reads of how the scenario played out, reactions, etc and that leads me to wanting to kynch elsewhere and see how the two players and their roles play out over a longer sample size with hopefully more information coming in from other areas...

[Teproc]

And again I feel like I should throw in words like "invented" and "modified" as we have already seen some of that...

We shouldn't rely on that but should take it into consideration that we may not know of a possible explanation because there has never been one like that before, so ultimately I need to go back to my reads of how the scenario played out, reactions, etc and that leads me to wanting to kynch elsewhere and see how the two players and their roles play out over a longer sample size with hopefully more information coming in from other areas...

I'm coming around to this way of thinking as well. I don't like it though.

[Witherweaver]

Let's try

Vote: e