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[faust]

@faust, why did you vote me? I know you have moved on, but I'd still like to know what you were thinking.

You were scummy voting for shraeye there. You were scummy all D1. When you said 338/339, I figured you meant poth posts; I can accept that I was mistaken there. But still it looks to me as though you were trying to derail the wagon on MiX with another town wagon, which is no good. The main reason I'm not voting for you is that ari is even scummier.

[faust]

I don't think jumping off the MiX wagon was any kind of a smart scum move.

Of course it wasn't. But he's new scum, so likely not smart scum.

[EFHW]

I don't think jumping off the MiX wagon was any kind of a smart scum move.

Of course it wasn't. But he's new scum, so likely not smart scum.

I knew you were going to say that.

[EFHW]

@faust, why did you vote me? I know you have moved on, but I'd still like to know what you were thinking.

You were scummy voting for shraeye there. You were scummy all D1. When you said 338/339, I figured you meant poth posts; I can accept that I was mistaken there. But still it looks to me as though you were trying to derail the wagon on MiX with another town wagon, which is no good. The main reason I'm not voting for you is that ari is even scummier.

I mean the most recent time you voted me. I haven't voted anyone yet today. Why would I try to derail Mix's lynch with a different town lynch? You're assuming of course that I knew/know who is town.

[EFHW]

ari is like MiX. He's putting extra into his posts. With MiX it was irony/sarcasm. With ari it's drama. That's my opinion.

[raerae]

So by my own logic, there would be 2 scum in {Debatepro, shraeye, raerae, mail-mi, LaLight, EFHW, Faust}. Scummiest people there IMO are raerae and Debatepro

You've still never given a reason why I'm scummy.

Why do you need to know?

Town needs to know.  Why are you okay with somebody not sharing simple information like that??  Why are you okay with people throwing suspicion around with nothing to back it up?  I'm not asking him to claim but he's been on my ass since yesterday for NO REASON.  It's so easy for scum to be say, "A, B, and C are scummy!  Look at me, I'm scum-hunting!" It's harder to give reasons because then you have to actually stand behind them.  Can you please explain why you think it's fine that he hasn't said why I'm scummy?

[faust]

Why are you okay with somebody not sharing simple information like that??

I am not in the business of trying to change people's behaviour. Joseph obviously shares as much as he thinks best. If tehy're town then who am I to judge? I know their reads, that's plenty.

Why are you okay with people throwing suspicion around with nothing to back it up?  I'm not asking him to claim but he's been on my ass since yesterday for NO REASON.

There's not no reason, there's just no reason that Joseph cared to share.

It's so easy for scum to be say, "A, B, and C are scummy!  Look at me, I'm scum-hunting!" It's harder to give reasons because then you have to actually stand behind them.  Can you please explain why you think it's fine that he hasn't said why I'm scummy?

If you think this behaviour means that Joseph is scum, then go ahead and vote for them, make a case, whatever. If not, then well they are town trying to play their best town game. It is silly to assume that scum could not present reasons for their reads when pressed.

[faust]

ari is like MiX. He's putting extra into his posts. With MiX it was irony/sarcasm. With ari it's drama. That's my opinion.

It would be nice to hear some opinions from you regarding people's alignments and not just their playstyles.

[silverspawn]

I think refusal to share reasons for things is something we should generally discourage. It can be justified in some scenarios, but most of the time it's not good.

[silverspawn]

"Tunneling only means pushing for lynch" If tunneling isn't scummy, then whats wrong with it?

Nothing. The fact that you scumread MiX is not a problem. I mentioned it as part of describing your behavior, but it's not scummy.

[Debatepro]

I think refusal to share reasons for things is something we should generally discourage. It can be justified in some scenarios, but most of the time it's not good.

Do you have some examples we can be on the look out for? In my world it's the only thing one can evaluate because anyone can make an assertion.

[EFHW]

ari is like MiX. He's putting extra into his posts. With MiX it was irony/sarcasm. With ari it's drama. That's my opinion.

It would be nice to hear some opinions from you regarding people's alignments and not just their playstyles.

I have.

[Uncleeurope]

People are playing really close to the chest this game.

Out of the cluster of people mentioned that voted for MiX, I would say I am most interested in lynching (definitely) EFHW, (maybe) Mail-mi, or (almost) Debatepro.

That being said, I am still concerned about some of the outliers like Ari or Datswan.

(SS is technically in both groups due to his last minute almost-hammer, worth keeping that in mind that he may as well be counted in that pool)

[Uncleeurope]

Oh, and Joseph, I keep forgetting about him, which concerns me. He could be Jedi-mind-tricking me into failure.

[raerae]

I think refusal to share reasons for things is something we should generally discourage. It can be justified in some scenarios, but most of the time it's not good.

Do you have some examples we can be on the look out for? In my world it's the only thing one can evaluate because anyone can make an assertion.

There's only reason for it if somebody has information they want to hold on to for a while. For instance, if somebody cop'd somebody and wanted to look at a wagon before sharing that information, that sort of stuff. D1 there's no legitimate reason to not share something unless you know you're not going to be the NK.

[Swowl]

I think refusal to share reasons for things is something we should generally discourage. It can be justified in some scenarios, but most of the time it's not good.

Do you have some examples we can be on the look out for? In my world it's the only thing one can evaluate because anyone can make an assertion.

There's only reason for it if somebody has information they want to hold on to for a while. For instance, if somebody cop'd somebody and wanted to look at a wagon before sharing that information, that sort of stuff. D1 there's no legitimate reason to not share something unless you know you're not going to be the NK.

No one tell Awaclus I ever said this - but, no... you are incorrect.

[Swowl]

I am breaking down the next several posts in attempts to apease those that don't like reading.

Actions from VC 1.11 - VC 1.12

This is Vote Count 1.11 - 6 hours to DL
MiX (4): Debatepro, shraeye, arishipshape, raerae
raerae (3): Joseph2302, DatSwan, faust
mail-mi (3): LaLight, silverspawn, MiX
LaLight (1): EFHW
DatSwan (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (1): mail-mi

#765: EFHW votes Mail-Mi. No reason given. Also, just slightly earlier in the game they posted the below here:

I am 99% sure I'll be here for the deadline. My vote stands, although I am wondering whether I should switch to prevent a no-lynch. I thought lynching was almost always superior to not lynching? Anyone care to explain why no-lynching might be better than lynching?

In general, it is always good to consolidate votes as deadline approaches. Since you will be here at deadline, you will know if a switch just to prevent no-lynch is needed. DatSwan gave a comprehensive explanation of why no lynch is bad. Why are thinking it is maybe better?

- So, it is a good thing to consolidate the wagons, but EFHW did not feel the desire to do so when we are within 6 hours of DL. EFHW mentioned a few times prior in the game that they did not want to vote MiX because she thought they seemed like they were "having fun, as opposed to acting classically skummy" - which, imo... is not a reason. Not saying one is needed, but that's not a reason worth anything.

- When EFHW makes this vote it makes the wagons read:
MiX (4): Debatepro, shraeye, arishipshape, raerae
raerae (3): Joseph2302, DatSwan, faust
mail-mi (4): LaLight, silverspawn, MiX, EFHW
DatSwan (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (1): mail-m

- The important point here is that when EFHW votes Mail-Mi... 100% of MiX's wagon is currently unknown (with the relatively accepted exception of Shraeye). However, at the same time we now know that 50% of the Mail-Mi wagon was Town (LL and MiX).
- Now, EFHW absolutely could just be Town that was picking between a rock and shit place... but imo Rae is/was far skummier than Mail-Mi. That is kind of why I am posting this now all together - because there seems to be some consensus to that point.
- After this, Mail-Mi votes for MiX (off an No-Vote) putting them at L-2
- Then LL, after the mason claim, votes for MiX putting them at L-1.

[Swowl]

Actions from VC 1.12 - VC 1.13

- Vote Count 1.12 (2 Hours to DL)
MiX (6): Debatepro, shraeye, arishipshape, raerae, mail-mi, LaLight
mail-mi (3): silverspawn, MiX, EFHW
raerae (3): Joseph2302, DatSwan, faust
DatSwan (1): Uncleeurope

- Ari unvotes (MiX)
- Faust votes Mix (Rae)
---- So, MiX still L-1, but Faust jumped on after Faust jumped off. Without a doubt, the skummiest thing that happened here is Ari unvoting (they also never vote again for the day). There was no reason to completely unvote at this stage if he were Town (or at least no reason to unvote and then not vote again). Or whatever, I guess there could be reasons, but they are strange ones if they exist.

- We know only one identity on the LL wagon at the end of all this unvote (LL). Wagons read as the below:
MiX (6): Debatepro, shraeye, raerae, mail-mi, LaLight, faust
mail-mi (3): silverspawn, MiX, EFHW
raerae (2): Joseph2302, DatSwan
DatSwan (1): Uncleeurope
Not Voting (1): Ari

- EFHW votes Shraeye (Mail-Mi). This takes Mail-Mi down to 2. The two players on her are SS and MiX.
----- MiX is the lead wagon. Ari just unvoted instead of placing a vote. Mail-Mi obviously is not going to vote for themselves. DebatePro and Shraeye have been consistently on MiX the entire day (so they cannot be assumed to leave the wagon at this stage of the day. Rae isn't going to leave lead wagon when they are possibly still on the table as a back up.
-----The point to be had here is that the people shifting in and about the MiX wagon very much could of been doing so due to their level of confidence that pretty much everyone, except the potential LL and Faust spots, were not going to move.

- I would like to take this time to remind everyone of EFHW's post regarding wagon consolidation towards the end of a day. The random attempt at new wagons likely could of been doings of skum with the intention of getting credit for jumping off the wagon, knowing there was skum on the wagon, for Town points. Combine that with one of the movers being skum, plus there being one skum on the wagon, they would know that most players off the wagon are Town - this could simotaneously deplete the pool of skum from the wagon, while also forcing town to hammer MiX in the end.

This is where it gets interesting...
- Faust votes EFHW (Mix) - can't really blame him. First off, I obviously am making a case on EFHW, so I get that. But also, I do not think skum!faust would leave the MiX wagon at this point in the day just to come back and hammer.
- Uncle votes EFHW (Mail-Mi) - deletes the Mail-Mi wagon completely. Again, I have trouble assigning skum points here given the Mail-Mi wagon was essentially dead at this point and I am obv making a case on EFHW.
- EFHW unvotes (Shraeye) - doesn't matter, meant nothing to begin with
- MiX votes EFHW - MiX was town, so it was defense.

[Swowl]

Less than 10 minutes to DL

- EFHW votes MiX - puts MiX at L-1
- Faust hammers MiX (EFHW) - less than 3 minutes to DL.
---- Faust: I have obviously made it clear Day 1 that I think faust is Town. On top of that, given I agree with their attempt to target EFHW end of day, and that I would always hammer MiX (or essentially anyone) here instead of going to no-lynch... I am unswayed by their hammer. There are also other reasons, but they belong to me for now.
---- EFHW: Summary of votes. EFHW leaves LL (after claim) for Mail-Mi, instead of Rae or MiX. Then they vote for someone with no wagon, after they have been noted to be a likely Mason, then they un-vote Shraeye instead of placing a vote... and then, after waiting until there was less than 10 minutes left in the day, they finally end up on MiX putting them at L-1.

[Swowl]

Summary:

Most Important
EFHW Vote Summary for Day 1 (not gonna type up why it is important again, but you can read it in my previous posts if you like):
1) Pressure voting Dylan at the beginning
2) Voting Ari and then jumping off for a No-Vote
3) Jumping on LL and then leaving when it is clear that no on is arguing with LL's claim Day 1.
4) Leaves LL for Mail-Mi (over MiX or Rae)
5) Random vote for Shraeye
6) Unvotes Shraeye for no reason. They could of just stayed there - not like that lynch was happening
7) Comes back in to put MiX to L-1 with less than 10 minutes left.


Important
Anyone else find it weird that in all the shit surrounding MiX, Mail-Mi, Rae, and EFHW.... that when we hit 6 hours to DL... Rae was avoided like cancer?


Important-ish
Given the flips we have seen, I think it is likely that when the MiX unvoting started at the end of day (starting with EFHW), it was due to a saturation of Skum on the lead wagon. If you find yourself looking into it - obviously remove LL, but then I would also suggest taking faust out of the VCA because his hammer is NAI regardless of his alignment. That's 5 people, all of which we don't know the alignment of left over... on a wagon that was danced around. This would suggest that at a least some part of the other wagons were Town - and if I had to place a bet I would say (town to skum) Mail-Mi->Rae->EFHW.



Extremely Bias Side Note (that probably should not be pursued today, given the other options)
There is almost for sure at least one skum in [Uncle, Joseph, SS, Ari].

[Swowl]

Right.

Vote: EFHW

[shraeye]

Most people don't throw around the word "damn" without being at least a little angry.

Nah, I swear more often than not, for little to no reason.

[Swowl]

Most people don't throw around the word "damn" without being at least a little angry.

Nah, I swear more often than not, for little to no reason.

seconded. if I didn't edit 50% of my posts before posting, I would of accidentally gotten myself banned from FDS like a year ago.

[raerae]

I think refusal to share reasons for things is something we should generally discourage. It can be justified in some scenarios, but most of the time it's not good.

Do you have some examples we can be on the look out for? In my world it's the only thing one can evaluate because anyone can make an assertion.

There's only reason for it if somebody has information they want to hold on to for a while. For instance, if somebody cop'd somebody and wanted to look at a wagon before sharing that information, that sort of stuff. D1 there's no legitimate reason to not share something unless you know you're not going to be the NK.

No one tell Awaclus I ever said this - but, no... you are incorrect.

Then correct me.

[EFHW]

Detailed self defense will have wait until after vla. I'll just say that DatSwan had to read very selectively not to see the motivations behind my actions. In case it isn't clear, the L1 MiX vote was entirely to avoid no lynch.