Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[arishipshape]

Sorry guys and gals. My car messed up this week and I've been dealing with that the last 48 hours. I'll catch up either later this evening or tomorrow.

unvote
Sorry dude. Again, used to 10 minute mafia

[arishipshape]

Rereading ari, I think I can say why ari's giving you that vibe.

He essencially has 2 stances: one where he's exuberent, saying what's on his mind merely because he thinks it's fun; examples are all the "!" in his posts, his early posts had that feel, but his recent ones have them as all, like here:

Lurking is absolutely scummy! Lurking deprives the town of information, which is the one thing it lacks. If the town has information and numbers, it can easily win. Remember, the mafia fights with having information, the town numbers. The scum will never have numbers, the town can get information. But only if nobody lurks!

And one where he's serious, trying his hardest to be as towny as possible, a good example is:

I'm just saying this because I haven't spoken in a while. Anyways, here's my take of the situation. MiX gets my FOS because of the random buddying and the fact that he is quite chill with 5 votes on him. If I were in his position, I would be demanding explanations from each person voting on me. Perhaps that would be sub-optimal play, but I still think the complete lack of "what the heck guys" is a little objectionable.

Note how his exuberent state is usually flavoury, while the other shows some caution; he's scared that his moves could be anti-town.

One of the big differences between these is his position on me: in the first one, he's null on me, in the other, he's FoSing me, I believe this is where your discrepancy lies

I am exuberant or calm based on what is happening irl. For instance, on mobile I don’t have the time to hit the ! button or be flavoury, I can only say the bare minimum, like right now. I hope I’m showing caution even in my exuberant posts... oh well.

Yes, I meant when you voted with me, not for me.

You went from this:

This be some bizarre buddying behavior from MiX followed by his conclusion that he should be prepared for his buddy to be scum, when buddying is a term that I would associate with something scum does.

Obviously this conclusively proves him to be scum.

Vote: MiX

I had no idea this game was so easy.

Buddying, while suspicious, is not conclusive evidence. The fact that I am new also shrouds his decisions regarding his play towards me with doubt. His conclusion of preparation for my scum (which will not occur) is merely reactionary to the fact that again, I am new and therefore entirely unpredictable. Buddying with me may be a good move, or an awful one. Considering the man you are buddying with to possibly be scum is merely good play. Expressing that might have not been the best move, but again, you claimed conclusive evidence. Of course, considering the fallacy fallacy, this doesn't prove you wrong. I actually lean towards agreeing with you. FOS MiX, but I keep my vote. For now, I go to die. Tomorrow, you will meet the new me!

Image was obnoxiously large, I've resized it for you—Your friendly power-mad mod

To this:

No need to dumb it down for me, I picked up what you were putting down in that first post but I was curious whether you thought it was a good idea or a bad one.  Fairly straight-forward yes or no question.  You used quite a few more words than that.  Interesting.

Vote: arishipshape

But without excess verbiage how am I to remain true to the theme of this mafia game? Philosophers are forced to use "quite a few more words than that" to express convoluted and nuanced thoughts. Sure, if you asked if it was a good idea I could have just said "yes", but that gives the town nearly no information about me. If I speak far more than "yes", it is not due to scummyness, but due to the underlying philosophy that my words are endowed with.

To the general game, I think starting a bandwagon on 1 person is better than starting 3. Therefore, I shall change my vote to vote: MiX. Especially because of that random buddying. If at any point I accidentally make an anti town vote, please explain to me why it was bad immediately, as I am still a noob.

Just seemed like a strange switch in a short time frame. But I could be reading too much into this.

There was no switch, notice the “I actually lean towards agreeing with you” in the start. I only asked you are wrong because you said it “conclusively” proves him to be mafia.

[arishipshape]

SAID you are wrong. Not asked. Fixing a typo with my last post.

[shraeye]

Still waiting on faust to say something substantive...really about anything.

I'm glad that discussion has been kickstarted, and now I can break down how I see things.

[arishipshape]

Still waiting on faust to say something substantive...really about anything.

I'm glad that discussion has been kickstarted, and now I can break down how I see things.

Agreed.
Tell me Faust, why should I not vote: faust?
I want Faust to say something not a metaphors. Defend yourself. Give the town information.

[shraeye]

So here is why my vote went onto MiX.  Two reasons, both small.

First; calling out some people but not others. 

I completely missed Uncleeurope...odd, maybe it's because I've actually seen him play.

I like wagons too, just not the current ones, those guys are my top townreads!

...I STILL want something from shraeye, his wife already talked, why can't he?

At this point Dylan had not posted.  The fact that he wants input from others so emphatically (but not from all) is incongruous.

Second; he is very worried about votes on him while claiming not to be

To be honest, I disregard the first vote on me, especially one right from the start of the game.

Here he scumreads someone for voting on him.  Devil-may-care + OMGUS = more incongruous.

Oh, thank you LaLight, was that for me? Regardless, FoS: LaLight, seems opportunist, maybe it's just the OMGUS talking, but still.

Next comes a breakdown of MiX's trip to #flailnation in response to this.

[Debatepro]

It’s Saturday, I’ve been drinking, and I’m literally the only FNG in the game. 

Re: 6 or 7 people with shade... it seems to me like flailing with back to back posts include putting the spotlight on roughly half the other players in the game.

Re: why tunneling mix and ari... this is my first game, mix and ari makeup the bulk of the early posts and questions being asked and sequencing of votes and conversations with the two of you seem suspect.

Plus I like playing against a gambit and it seems like constant posting from an experienced player early could be scummy.

[shraeye]

Real answer: I still want more from shraeye, the vote's okay but the reasoning is what I crave! Say it so I can move on.

Wants the reasoning

Vote: MiX

I guess you know the reason and it's better than I thought.

faust gets it but Mix doesn't

Why did you ask those 3 specific people? One's already voting for me anyway...

Anyway, I think your reasoning is clear, vote: dylan32, someone else needs a push to get in this game. DatSwan's also quiet, but bigger wagons are better.

10 posts later and he suddenly understands my reasoning.  Spoiler alert: nobody explained anything in the meantime.

Oh, and there ARE meaningful cases on me: Debatepro's, ari's and even shraeye's if you look closer, so it's not "for no reason".

Thinks my case is meaningful, if you look closer.

Oh, and there ARE meaningful cases on me: Debatepro's, ari's and even shraeye's if you look closer, so it's not "for no reason".

he says my case is meaningful, if you look closer. raerae points out that he still hasn't heard a reason.  His response is that there is a reason, he just doesn't know it (even though he looked closer?)

I assumed I had slipped *something* and shraeye had picked it up,

...

I'm willing to destroy whatever slip he thinks I did and why that's part of my town meta, but he hasn't actually said what it is yet...

So now my reason is that he scumslipped and I picked up on it.  Don't worry, despite his slip (he still isn't sure what it is) it will be DESTROYED BECAUSE MIX IS SO TOWNNN!!!  (<----that's sarcasm)

[shraeye]

Afterwards, ss said "challenging votes is pro-town", so I started doing it more.

This also sits weirdly.  SS said town should do this, so I am doing this.  Much town.  See me be town.

[raerae]

So that's all super cute and clean, shraeye, but why did you actually vote for him in the first place? You've conveniently left that out of your "case."

[shraeye]

Other selected thoughts:

Ari'sHipShape: eager, reads towny for a newer player.  reads null-er if Ari is more experienced than I'm thinking.

DatSwan: You caught up yet?  Want to give thoughts?  So far you've apologized, asked people to put signatures up, and inspected raerae's vote formatting

raerae: feels like standard raerae; RVS's me, challenges hedging people to explain themselves.  I agree with her that we need more interactions.

silverspawn: reads town; suspicious of everyone is a town state of mind, I feel ya.

It is towny for faust to go against his meta and raise eyebrows, and scum!faust knows this which is why he is likely to emulate it. At only one level of meta you're not likely to obtain significant information that distinguishes between scum!faust and town!faust

Am I then forced to acknowledge this faust as null? vote: Dylan, while you have time to answer me this:

Not necessarily, going after faust might not be bad, even if you're unlikely to find anything substantial.

Agree

UncleEurope: Kinda weird that he ignored my guessing game for why MiX is suspicious, while continuing to call MiX suspicious for what feel like increasingly confusing reasons.  MiX is doing weird flaily things, and Uncle gives us this:

There is also his defense he provided for ss which struck me as not caring about scum-hunting.

There's a lot of discussion but I'm not sure anyone is scummy. No good cases so far.
I am, however, pretty sure that Debatepro is town, and arishipshape probably too. That's something.

You have no scumreads whatsoever? I find that bizarre, surely you are suspicious of someone.

Notice how he said he's not SURE anyone is scummy, not that there are no scums nor that he doesn't have a hunch that specific people are being scummy.

I don't think this constitutes defending.  Everybody is accountable to everyone else to provide good reasoning.  Anyone is free and encouraged to probe when something looks wrong.  This helps us avoid tunneling in incorrectly.

Also, following up a "here is why MiX is bad" post with this hedge is.....not good

The points for pro-town MiX are interesting though, his posting often and regularly will be taken into account, (and my vote will stay on AIRship for the time being)

[shraeye]

So that's all super cute and clean, shraeye, but why did you actually vote for him in the first place? You've conveniently left that out of your "case."

That's back in #230, you're letting your narrative shape your reading.

[raerae]

So that's all super cute and clean, shraeye, but why did you actually vote for him in the first place? You've conveniently left that out of your "case."

That's back in #230, you're letting your narrative shape your reading.

You know, I hate it when you're right.

[shraeye]

I hate it too

[Uncleeurope]

Yeah, I don’t play games I don’t know the rules to.

And if you don’t mind what about my reasons are weird? I admit they are minor, but I would say that they are fairly clear and adequate representations of my thought process. And my gut, while not always 100% reliable in these cases, is reliable enough for me to be trusting it now. I think MiX is suspect.

Regardless, any holes you would like to poke in my arguments are welcome, I should have to work for my statements for the good of truth and knowledge after all.

[Swowl]

Reaponsing to Shrea (and all): finishing up re read notes now (up to yesterday at least i have been keeping up since then).
Huge annoying wall post coming in like an hour and then i will be ahead of it. I apologize again for the delay - work thing i was not expecting popped up like the day after the game started. Over now though.

[Swowl]

Finishing up but I want this to be a separate post. Super shot in the dark, but feel like it needs to be pointed out...

This is directed at faust. ----- Are you just doing a bit with the quotes or do you have a role restriction regarding what you can post?  If I am correct you would not be able to answer with a "yes or no"... so how about this for now:

- If I am onto something at all, respond with the "to live is to suffer" quote.
- If I am just outright correct, respond with the "love is blind" quote.
- If I am dead wrong then just tell me that I am dead wrong in non-Nietzsche quotes.

For the community - My theory here is based on the flavor of "The Philosophers" in this game combined with the fact that everything that faust has said to this point in the game is a direct quote of Nietzsche. If you don't understand why that could be substantial, I suggest you google it.

[Swowl]

Doing this is super summary mode to not block off an entire page of content. Feel free to ask questions if you want me to elaborate... and if you are lucky I may even agree to do so!



1) shraeye (11): Compared to the average player their interactions are minimal, and a lot of them raise eyebrows. However, I am reading Townish here under the assumption that lazy skum wouldn't be this sloppy with their posting. *Key Points Below* [/i]
- #112: Gives Joseph, faust, and Uncle "a guess" as to why voting for MiX.
- #129, #193, #229: Follows up by dodging raerae, then goes with blaming the above players for not answering the question (yet posting since it was asked).And in the last of the three posts calls out faust for "not posting anything substantial".
- #231: Gives reasons for MiX vote, but does not address why they selected [Joseph ,faust, Uncle] for the original question. They are then called out on it by raerae a few posts later and either misses the intent of the question or ignores it.



2) faust (: see my post about the potential posting restrictions in regards to Nietzsche. Until that is cleared up, faust is unlynchable from PoV.



3) raerae (no shuffle ID, so IDK, but they have decent content): All in all just too damn paranoid for me to consider as a lynch rn. I am a pretty strong town read on them as of current.. they check all the correct boxes. 1) Frustrated with their wagon (not skummy, no matter what people have said), 2) faust pissing them off (townX1000), 3) They continue to attempt to open new venues of conversation, which is the easiest form of skum hunting in early days to avoid... so skum tends to you know... avoid it.
- Start of game has mostly to do with twin claim wars. To be expected. As I somewhat recently joined FDS from a twinclaim referral I can go ahead and say that gunning for your friend is essentially NAI... so if you are married it is probably just outright expected to happen (that was a joke, it is nice to play with both of you!)
- That being said... #138 is just downright incorrect. This is a form of RMM - if we bring every player to L-1 on Day 1, then on Day 1 every player will essentially have to claim. That is an exaggerated example (I am not promoting a mass claim by any means).. I am just saying that to wagon up players, under the correct circumstances, during early phases of this set up... def does NOT just "tell us nothing". If anything it is a stronger argument for the RVS stage of the game.


4) Mix (38) - I am torn. They open as an opportunist wagon, but some of the stuff they say is just so skummy. I could vote here, but not my preferred choice today.
- #113: "there are normally 3 skum in a 13 player game". As I mentioned I am torn. They stated pre-game they have never done this set up, so I suppose it would not be absurd for them to ignore the obvious things like SK, survivor, multiple skum factions, etc.
- #133: votes Dylan, while I am the only one voting Dylan. Given the wagon on them at the time, this strikes me as odd to go for the guy with 0 posts that the other guy you stated you would voted for is voting for instead of jumping on a wagon. I guess that is skummy? Whatever, if it is then like 1/4 point for it or whatever for now. Not reading super deep into it.
-then there are a lot of other responses which pretty much lead me to summary of...
- All in all this is a wagon that has been visited far too often for far to weak of reasons for me to consider today.


5) Dylan (6): Only relevant comment to date is #208. They did say they were traveling so giving them a wait for now.


6) EFHW (7): Hasn't really stated an opinion. Null.



Bed time + after finding the faust thing want to see how that plays out. Will finish in the AM.

[silverspawn]

It would be a stretch to have a posting restriction in any game that's not bastard. This game is normal. So there almost certainly is no posting restriction. faust is just being silly.

No-one is taking the "wrong number of scum" seriously as a town slip (and you shouldn't), but I just want to point out that it wasn't even an accidental mistake. I was trying to make something in between an extreme long shot and a joke and didn't care whether the number was correct or not.

I request to hear faust's thoughts on the Mix case(s).

[faust]

I think it is about time to drop this. Using quotes from my flavor character only is something that I did in another game of UoS back in the Day, and hey I drew Nietzsche, so I figured it would be fun here. Plus I tend to dominate discussion often and I wanted to see ow the game develops without that. Now I am feeling that this makes is harder for me to get into the game, so time to go back to normal. Plus it creates too much attention focused around just a gimmick. I actually thought that someone would catch onto the M66 reprisal fairly quickly, but apparently not.

I'm going to take some time to properly respond to some things now.

[faust]

vote: arishipshape. Cluttering the thread.

Is this a policy vote or do you think that ari (is that an acceptable nickname?) is scum for it?

[faust]

I suddenly have a question. @faust, are you Town-Aligned?

Yes.

[faust]

Philosophical rambling was good at the start of the game, but now it's getting scummy. vote: faust for doing it too much

What about it makes you think it is something I would do as scum?

[faust]

faust, I think I recall that you have previously asked this question at the beginning of games. Is that correct, and if yes, is the reason that you didn't this time that you were in a mafia QT with both new players and therefore already know?

And remember that lying is a sin.

I am not one who asks this every time, usually I just use they until I hear something else. But I may have asked some time. Second question: No.

[faust]

Vote: MiX

Why? I'll give Joseph, faust, and UncleEurope each 1 guess.

For pressure I assume. And to ask this question. Which in turn makes me want to ask. why us?