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[Witherweaver]

So it was a 1 in 5 chance he gets caught immediately.

Wrong. In the even of a massclaim Today, which had already been proposed, he had a 1 in 2 chance of being automatically lynched Today, and a 1 in 2 chance of being part of a 1 scum in 3. That's a 1 in 3 chance of surviving the Day. Scum don't willingly give themselves a 1 in 3 chance of surviving.

But he was going to get lynched Day 2.  Or, he thought it was a very strong chance.

[Ichimaru Gin]

What you said is true in terms of the circumstances surrounding my claim. However, the fact that I was the first PR to claim also gave scum additional information to formulate their own fakeclaims based off of mine. Depending what scum knew from their own roles or knowing their partners or not + my claim, it would allow them to narrow the setup down substantially--thus giving them the ability to craft much more believable fakeclaims.

Which scum?  Who did this? How did they use the information in this situation?

All I'm saying is that scum would then know my role and use to build their own fakeclaims.
So "Ichi's a Psychologist and we know x from our own roles and what we know means the setup is #y, so it's best to claim z (1-shot commuter, or Jailkeeper).

[ashersky]

What you said is true in terms of the circumstances surrounding my claim. However, the fact that I was the first PR to claim also gave scum additional information to formulate their own fakeclaims based off of mine. Depending what scum knew from their own roles or knowing their partners or not + my claim, it would allow them to narrow the setup down substantially--thus giving them the ability to craft much more believable fakeclaims.

Which scum?  Who did this? How did they use the information in this situation?

All I'm saying is that scum would then know my role and use to build their own fakeclaims.
So "Ichi's a Psychologist and we know x from our own roles and what we know means the setup is #y, so it's best to claim z (1-shot commuter, or Jailkeeper).

That is of course true if you are town.  But you aren't.

[Ichimaru Gin]

What you said is true in terms of the circumstances surrounding my claim. However, the fact that I was the first PR to claim also gave scum additional information to formulate their own fakeclaims based off of mine. Depending what scum knew from their own roles or knowing their partners or not + my claim, it would allow them to narrow the setup down substantially--thus giving them the ability to craft much more believable fakeclaims.

Which scum?  Who did this? How did they use the information in this situation?

All I'm saying is that scum would then know my role and use to build their own fakeclaims.
So "Ichi's a Psychologist and we know x from our own roles and what we know means the setup is #y, so it's best to claim z (1-shot commuter, or Jailkeeper).

That is of course true if you are town.  But you aren't.

Please stop bussing me Ash.

[ashersky]

What you said is true in terms of the circumstances surrounding my claim. However, the fact that I was the first PR to claim also gave scum additional information to formulate their own fakeclaims based off of mine. Depending what scum knew from their own roles or knowing their partners or not + my claim, it would allow them to narrow the setup down substantially--thus giving them the ability to craft much more believable fakeclaims.

Which scum?  Who did this? How did they use the information in this situation?

All I'm saying is that scum would then know my role and use to build their own fakeclaims.
So "Ichi's a Psychologist and we know x from our own roles and what we know means the setup is #y, so it's best to claim z (1-shot commuter, or Jailkeeper).

That is of course true if you are town.  But you aren't.

Please stop bussing me Ash.

Never!

[Witherweaver]

What you said is true in terms of the circumstances surrounding my claim. However, the fact that I was the first PR to claim also gave scum additional information to formulate their own fakeclaims based off of mine. Depending what scum knew from their own roles or knowing their partners or not + my claim, it would allow them to narrow the setup down substantially--thus giving them the ability to craft much more believable fakeclaims.

Which scum?  Who did this? How did they use the information in this situation?

All I'm saying is that scum would then know my role and use to build their own fakeclaims.
So "Ichi's a Psychologist and we know x from our own roles and what we know means the setup is #y, so it's best to claim z (1-shot commuter, or Jailkeeper).

Yeah, but that's kind of just quoting a general principle.  I'm saying, tell me a story.  Who used this information and what fake claim did they make, and why did they make it?

[ashersky]

What you said is true in terms of the circumstances surrounding my claim. However, the fact that I was the first PR to claim also gave scum additional information to formulate their own fakeclaims based off of mine. Depending what scum knew from their own roles or knowing their partners or not + my claim, it would allow them to narrow the setup down substantially--thus giving them the ability to craft much more believable fakeclaims.

Which scum?  Who did this? How did they use the information in this situation?

All I'm saying is that scum would then know my role and use to build their own fakeclaims.
So "Ichi's a Psychologist and we know x from our own roles and what we know means the setup is #y, so it's best to claim z (1-shot commuter, or Jailkeeper).

Yeah, but that's kind of just quoting a general principle.  I'm saying, tell me a story.  Who used this information and what fake claim did they make, and why did they make it?

That was what my analysis was trying to show.  Silverspawn went second, and claimed Jailkeeper, knowing Ichi had claimed Psychologist.  Then Jimmmm claimed 1-Shot Commuter, knowing the first two claimed.

As I went through each one, I took into account known and unknown information.  And to me, each subsequent claim was more believable, not less.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Never!

Yeah. It probably is the best call in this situation. I don't think anyone suspects you, so we probably have a good chance of winning.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Seriously though, if there's no chance of me not being lynched today then I guess someone might as well hammer.

[Ichimaru Gin]

*Sigh*
This will be my first mislynch--and as a town PR no less.

[Ichimaru Gin]

Well. I'm going to bed soon. Yesterday there were four pages while I was asleep. I at least want to be around when/if you guys kill me.

[Jimmmmm]

Please don't pull this again. You can't expect me to stop arguing my point just because you say you've had your feelings hurt.

How about because you are being unfair?  Don't pull single lines out of context to disprove or to make me look stupid.

Firstly, I didn't take you out of context. What you said means exactly the same with or without the rest of your post. You said that at the time of his claim Psychologist was the most sensible claim. I strongly disagree, and regardless of how sensible other PR claims would be, Psychologist was a very unsensible claim for a Traitor in TKM to make, since it has a 50% chance of disaster in the event of a massclaim.

Secondly, I'm allowed to take you out of context if I want. If I'm scum or I think you're scum and either way I want to turn other people's opinions against you, there is nothing in the rules saying I can't manipulate your words to sound however I want them to sound. The whole post is just a click or a scroll away, and you're quite capable of clarifying what you actually meant.

I am not okay with you questioning my motives on a personal level. I think you've known me long enough (to the extent that we know each other) to know that I'm not the kind of person to want to actually belittle someone or make them feel dumb. I'm just trying to play the game and when I think you're very wrong about something in the game, I'm going to say it.

In the civility pledge that you were the first person to commit to, and implored others to do the same, it says:

Your criticisms of other players should not rise to the level of personal attacks. At the same time, you should assume other players' criticisms of you are not intended as personal attacks.

I feel like at times you are too quick to assume someone is personally attacking you. This is reminding me of Chocolate Factory (in which I received a positive Goon result on you and waited until about halfway through the Day to announce it). At times during that game you were questioning my motives on a personal level and I felt gagged in a way, like anything I said against you you would take personally, and I felt inhibited in my ability to play the game and argue against someone who I knew was scum. As I said, I'm not okay with this, and I will not allow it to stop me from saying what I want to say. I am also not okay with you threatening to leave f.ds because of an in-game argument (which if you didn't mean to imply it is at least understandable that that's what I took from it).

For a point relevant to actual scumhunting in this game, ash here is very much reminding me of ash from Chocolate Factory. He was before he mentioned personal stuff, and even more so now. That in my mind is strong evidence against him.

[ashersky]

Now who's taking things personally, appealing to emotion?

Pot, meet kettle.

[ashersky]

And are you claiming a goon result on me, having lied about being a commuter?  Because if you aren't, I fail to see the relevance of an ancient game where you had actual evidence.

Am I the goon who knowingly destroyed my partner hydrad?  You know I never bus, ever.  Am I the unluckiest traitor alive?  Did I bus the goon I knew was my partner?

Ash is scum because my spidey sense is tingling because scum!Ash plays mafia like an asshole is not a legitimate case.

[Jimmmmm]

Now who's taking things personally, appealing to emotion?

Pot, meet kettle.

I think I'm done engaging with you for the moment.

[ashersky]

Now who's taking things personally, appealing to emotion?

Pot, meet kettle.

I think I'm done engaging with you for the moment.

If you have "the right" to do x, y, or z in the name of the game, it only seems fair that I can do the same.

[Jimmmmm]

Not when you pledged to do otherwise.

[ashersky]

Secondly, I'm allowed to take you out of context if I want. If I'm scum or I think you're scum and either way I want to turn other people's opinions against you, there is nothing in the rules saying I can't manipulate your words to sound however I want them to sound.

Relevant quote here.

You say you are allowed to do what you want, regardless of its effect on the person you do it to.

Then why can't I?

I can take what you say and portray them as personal attacks if I want, right?  Isn't that what you argue here?  You can take my words and portray them dishonestly to say whatever you want.  I can do the same.  The difference here is I'm not being dishonest, I'm just saying what I feel.

And if you want to play the "we know each other well" card, then you should know me well enough that I don't lie about this stuff, regardless of alignment.  I don't fake fights, emotions, or reactions.  I'll lie about a claim or whatever as scum, but the feelings are 100% genuine.

If you think it's okay for you, it should be okay for me.

[ashersky]

Not when you pledged to do otherwise.

So the pledge applies differently to you than to me?

You were literally JUST complaining about my posts being offensive to you because I took them personally.  So you took mine personally.  Hence you are doing exactly what you are accusing me off.

So I ask again, if you can, why can't i?

[ashersky]

Also, why are we arguing?

You feel that strongly that Ichi is telling the truth?  Actually do something to show why it is joth or silver who is lying.  And "stop the 3 ICs" argument is weak.  Tell us why his claim is fake.

But you've married yourself to Ichi now.

[faust]

Can you, uh, not lynch Ichi for the moment? I have to kind of think through the last couple of pages, but don't have the time right now.

[faust]

Expect more input from me tomorrow around the same time.

[faust]

Am I the goon who knowingly destroyed my partner hydrad?  You know I never bus, ever.  Am I the unluckiest traitor alive?  Did I bus the goon I knew was my partner?

One question though: Do you deliberately leave out an option here?

[ashersky]

Am I the goon who knowingly destroyed my partner hydrad?  You know I never bus, ever.  Am I the unluckiest traitor alive?  Did I bus the goon I knew was my partner?

One question though: Do you deliberately leave out an option here?

Yep.

[jotheonah]

Yeah, I am in way too deep here. What if like to do is compile master cases against ichi, jimmmmm, and silver, with pros and cons. Iight have time for that this afternoon.

(I know ash did a lot of this earlier and its much appreciated, but I want to make sure he didn't accidentally or intentionally leave anything out)