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[ashersky]

Okay, I have some time for plan thinking.

1. Detective, 1-shot Commuter, Goon Cop; 1-shot Investigation Immune + Serial Killer
2. Watcher, Jailkeeper, Psychologist; 2-shot JOAT
3. 1-shot BP Townie, Jailkeeper, Bodyguard; Traitor Knows Mafia
4. 1-shot BP Commuter, Psychologist, Detective; Mafia Knows Traitor
5. Watcher, 1-shot BP Townie, 1-shot BP Commuter; 2-shot JOAT
6. Detective, Jailkeeper, Psychologist; Mafia Knows Traitor + Serial Killer
7. 1-shot Commuter, Jailkeeper, Detective; Traitor Knows Mafia + Serial Killer
8. Goon Cop, Psychologist, Bodyguard; 1-shot Investigation Immune

Here's the total setups list again.  Let's first do what Faust thinks will clear/catch Ichi.

Here's the list of PRs:

Detective
1-Shot Commuter
Goon Cop
Watcher
Jailkeeper
Psychologist
1-Shot BP Townie
Bodyguard

1.  Someone could claim {Watcher, Jailkeeper, 1-Shot Commuter, Detective, Goon Cop, Bodyguard} and somewhat substantiate Ichi's claim.
2.  Someone could claim {1-Shot BP Townie} and confirm Ichi lied.

That's not the greatest thing ever, but, well, I think that's a start.

So I think Step #1 should be the three PR claimants that are NOT Ichi should claim 1-Shot BP/Not 1-Shot BP.  This is not the same as what he proposed, and I'm not sure why.

[ashersky]

Well, maybe the odd massclaiming thing included the 1-Shot BP thing?

[ashersky]

Guys I have to go. Date with the ladyfriend tonight and she's not the biggest fan of me constantly checking in on my mafia games. Don't expect I'll be around to participate in claiming until at least tomorrow morning, so I'm going to go ahead and claim Not VT and On the Ichi list. (meaning my role does NOT contradict Ichi's claim)

So now I'm all set if you all go with my plan or Jimmmmm's plan. Bye!

I am non-VT and non-BP.

Okay, looks like I have to come clean.

My first post in this game was a lie. I'm a PR. Which means, there is scum among the claimed PR's in this game. I don't know why scum claimed PR here, but there's no doubt that they did.

This all would have been so much easier if we just did a massclaim. After everyone claimed his role, I could have known for sure who was lying. I would have full claimed, and we catch scum. But no, ash just had to suggest this half-claim plan.

It doesn't matter though. We need to claim now. Everyone with a PR needs to state his role. And I will full-claim last.

If you think I am lying, think about this. I have zero motivation to do this as town. I'm not actually in trouble. There is no way I do this as town. But if that's not enough, then at least follow me for today, and if we lose even one town, you can lynch me tomorrow. We won't though. Just do what I say here, and we win.

The three new claims collected.

Only silverspawn did not answer the BP question.

[ashersky]

Assuming the three new claimants are NOT Psychologists, since they would have counterclaimed by now.  Assuming that the three new claimants are NOT 1-SHOT BP, since they should have claimed that by now.

silverspawn, claim BP or not BP in your next post.  Not doing so is grounds for lynching, in my estimation.

[silverspawn]

I'm not BP

[silverspawn]

Well, maybe the odd massclaiming thing included the 1-Shot BP thing?

yea, it was one of the roles faust listed. so I really answered that already.

can we go ahead with faust's plan now? Or does Jimmm want to sabotage it more?

[ashersky]

Final Vote Count

Jimmmmm (4): Hydrad, Ichimaru Gin, faust, Eevee
Hydrad (5): Witherweaver, jotheonah, silverspawn, ashersky, Jimmmmm

IG is the only claimant off-wagon.

Jimmmmm can't get town points for the hammer because he was the other wagon.  silverspawn is in the scummy wagon position.  joth is in a better spot.

Man, IG makes the most sense, as he's the only one off-wagon, his claim came under pressure and very early, etc.

BUT!  We have other claimants now, and we should be able to figure this out.

As opposed to faust's method, I think the only thing that will really help us is to get all the claims out and sort out the impossible combos.  Except, that wouldn't work perfectly, as if you change one, it affects everything, so I think we'd have to focus on where TWO claims together can't work.  Man, this is hard.

I'd actually propose we get the claims sorted and then lynch based on scumhunting.'

I've yet to figure out how to solve for a liar, and here's why.

Assume the three non Ichi claimants say detective, 1-Shot commuter, Goon Cop.  So those three work together!  Ichi is lying!  Except...what if the Goon Cop is lying?  So we mislynch, then lynch correct the next day.  Not horrendous, but not perfect.

[ashersky]

Okay, with some consideration, here is the ultimate claiming plan. This depends on whether we even want to claim - there are reasonable arguments to be made against claiming, I think - but if we claim, this is how we should do it:

1. Everyone with a role out of {Watcher, 1-shot BP, Goon Cop, Bodyguard} claims. If contradictions arise form this, we stop. If someone claimed, go to 2, if not, go to 3.

2. Anyone who can contradict the claimant claims. If noone does, massclaim, and we'll get two contradicting claims. We lynch one of them. Stop here.

3. The Detective claims. Why is that? Because at this point, we know that if Ichi tels the truth, there must be a Detective in the setup. If someone claims (and noone counterclaims), he's IC (either Ichi tells the truth, then there must be a Detective, there is only one; or Ichi lies, well then Ichi lies, and everyone else tells the truth). If noone claims, we lynch Ichi.

4. If this all didn't lead to anything, the rest does not need to claim, because it won't give us much further information. We lynch among Ichi and whoever didn't claim Detective.

There's 1 setup possible where a Detective exists and a Psychologist doesn't.  So there's a possible problem there with Step 3.  I've seen the arguments against the SK, and they make sense, but we can't rule it out.

Since no one claimed the other roles, a lack of a Detective does catch Ichi out.  So there's that.

[silverspawn]

guys. ash. let us just do faust's plan. it will all work out. we have needlessly complicated this enough already.

[ashersky]

guys. ash. let us just do faust's plan. it will all work out. we have needlessly complicated this enough already.

Guys.  silver.  What if faust is your partner?

[ashersky]

I'm actually leaning toward no claiming, and lynching based on actions.

Scummiest, based on play:

IG > silverspawn > Jimmmmm > jotheonah

IG: off-wagon, early pressure claim
SS: LIED
Jimmmmm: lurking, could be intentionally obscuring his play
joth: towny, destroyed Hydrad

Now, any of these could be a Traitor who doesn't know his partners, but that's just a risk.

[ashersky]

No claim makes scum guess at which PR to kill, too.  That's a good thing.

[silverspawn]

I'm actually leaning toward no claiming, and lynching based on actions.

Scummiest, based on play:

IG > silverspawn > Jimmmmm > jotheonah

IG: off-wagon, early pressure claim
SS: LIED
Jimmmmm: lurking, could be intentionally obscuring his play
joth: towny, destroyed Hydrad

Now, any of these could be a Traitor who doesn't know his partners, but that's just a risk.

This is by far the most anti town post I've ever seen you make

I don't think faust's pan can even backfire.

It doesn't matter. we have to claim. we got this game in the back, if we just go ahead and DO it. you already prevented the original massclaim. don't do it again.

After faust proposed his plan, I asked who has a problem with it. You didn't say anything. I think you lost your right co sabotage it there.

[Witherweaver]

...

[ashersky]

I'm actually leaning toward no claiming, and lynching based on actions.

Scummiest, based on play:

IG > silverspawn > Jimmmmm > jotheonah

IG: off-wagon, early pressure claim
SS: LIED
Jimmmmm: lurking, could be intentionally obscuring his play
joth: towny, destroyed Hydrad

Now, any of these could be a Traitor who doesn't know his partners, but that's just a risk.

This is by far the most anti town post I've ever seen you make

I don't think faust's pan can even backfire.

It doesn't matter. we have to claim. we got this game in the back, if we just go ahead and DO it. you already prevented the original massclaim. don't do it again.

After faust proposed his plan, I asked who has a problem with it. You didn't say anything. I think you lost your right co sabotage it there.

Why are you faust's spokesperson?  Why are so greatly aligned with someone who is unconfirmed as town?  He's a VT claimer, just like everyone else.

If you go look at my posts, I actually said I would have more time to look at the plan today, and here I am, doing it.

I can't sabotage a plan I'm not a part of.  I can only make comments pointing out possible flaws.  All of this setup/plan talk is taking away from very importan things, like FINDING SCUM.

You are a liar.  That's not an insult, it's a statement of fact, based on your own admission.  You lied.  You make a conscious decision to be deceitful.  You understand what that means, right?  It means that no one should trust you, ever.  It means that you made a horrible mistake.  It means that nothing you say means anything but possibly evil and treacherous things (in the context of the game).

So you, aligning yourself with someone who is trying to help figure things out (faust) looks to me like a giant attempt to get some towncred for yourself.  You pushing and focusing on the plan and trying to force claims out as quickly as possible looks to me like you are trying to ensure no one focuses on your lying in this game and to get all the information scum wants out in the open before the door shuts.

No one should claim anything because YOU want them to.  All we know is there is at least 1 scum out of 4 players.  There is zero possibility of 100% catching a liar today by claiming, as we've already confirmed that the ONLY role in the game that could disprove the only named claim in the game doesn't exist.  It's very possible all four claims come out and all roles are possible in some combination, and all we've done is tell scum who to shoot.

Do you understand?  Claiming tells scum who to shoot and tells town NOTHING.

[ashersky]

...

Care to expand?

[silverspawn]

I mean, it's most likely Jimmm anyway. what kind of post is this
 

I think silver realised how bad 3 ICs is for scum and so fakeclaimed in a panic. I won't be directed by him and will claim to the extent that he does, after he does.

what? every setup has 3 PR's. if they all claim and no scum claims PR, they have 3 IC's. If anything, it's a planed move, though that would be pretty stupid. it can't be panicking, unless I literally spend zero thought on the setup and just now realized that it can lead to IC's.

This is all so stupid, I almost want to just claim and get it over with. But that's not the best thing, so I'm asking others for their opinions here.

do you agree that we should follow faust's plan and win the game, or do you think we should something really stupid and anti town, like follow ahs's lead and don't claim?

[Witherweaver]

...

Care to expand?

Silver's response/language is unnecessarily argumentative.  You "sabotaging" the plan is a hyperbole at best.

[Jimmmmm]

I mean, it's most likely Jimmm anyway. what kind of post is this
 

I think silver realised how bad 3 ICs is for scum and so fakeclaimed in a panic. I won't be directed by him and will claim to the extent that he does, after he does.

what? every setup has 3 PR's. if they all claim and no scum claims PR, they have 3 IC's. If anything, it's a planed move, though that would be pretty stupid. it can't be panicking, unless I literally spend zero thought on the setup and just now realized that it can lead to IC's.

This is all so stupid, I almost want to just claim and get it over with. But that's not the best thing, so I'm asking others for their opinions here.

do you agree that we should follow faust's plan and win the game, or do you think we should something really stupid and anti town, like follow ahs's lead and don't claim?

How does that make me scum?

Just claim then. I don't think faust's plan is significantly better than just claiming, you first.

Did I ever say we shouldn't claim? I opened today with a suggestion to massclaim and so far I'm following faust's plan exactly.

[ashersky]

I think each PR should decide on their own if they think a claim is worthwhile.

Each PR can look at the possible setups and decide if there are specific combinations work testing for.  If you play Hearthstone, this is dropping your 1 mana minion to test for Mirror Image before dropping your big one.

It has been shown that claiming at this point doesn't catch anyone.  I don't know why anyone would push so hard for everyone to claim now that we know it's useless (in the context of finding the fake claim).  Someone claiming Detective now just let's scum know who is what.

Why is this not clear?  Sure, if two of the three claim the same role, then woo hoo.  But that would be fairly stupid, given scum know the actual setup within 2 groupings no matter what.

[silverspawn]

This is the setup:

1. Detective, 1-shot Commuter, Goon Cop; 1-shot Investigation Immune + Serial Killer
2. Watcher, Jailkeeper, Psychologist; 2-shot JOAT
3. 1-shot BP Townie, Jailkeeper, Bodyguard; Traitor Knows Mafia
4. 1-shot Commuter, Psychologist, Detective; Mafia Knows Traitor
5. Watcher, 1-shot BP Townie, 1-shot BP Commuter; 2-shot JOAT
6. Detective, Jailkeeper, Psychologist; Mafia Knows Traitor + Serial Killer
7. 1-shot Commuter, Jailkeeper, Detective; Traitor Knows Mafia + Serial Killer
8. Goon Cop, Psychologist, Bodyguard; 1-shot Investigation Immune

We had one kill in Night one, two kills in Night two. That makes the existence of a SK extremely unlikely.

2. Watcher, Jailkeeper, Psychologist; 2-shot JOAT
3. 1-shot BP Townie, Jailkeeper, Bodyguard; Traitor Knows Mafia
4. 1-shot Commuter, Psychologist, Detective; Mafia Knows Traitor
5. Watcher, 1-shot BP Townie, 1-shot BP Commuter; 2-shot JOAT
8. Goon Cop, Psychologist, Bodyguard; 1-shot Investigation Immune

IG claimed Psychologist. In order for that to be a lie, there'd have to be a setup without Psychologist in it, otherwise he could just counter claim. That leaves #3 and #5. Everyone claimed non-BP, so neither of that is possible. which means IG told the truth. that's that. IG told the truth.

Okay, so we have a Psychologist. That leaves these setups:

2. Watcher, Jailkeeper, Psychologist; 2-shot JOAT
4. 1-shot Commuter, Psychologist, Detective; Mafia Knows Traitor
8. Goon Cop, Psychologist, Bodyguard; 1-shot Investigation Immune

(by the way I edited 1-shot BP commutor to 1-shot Commutor, because that seems to be a mistake in the setup)

Okay, so these three are left. Aside from Psychologist, which we know exists, these are 6 different roles. every two PR's are contradicting. if we claim, we are guaranteed to get a 2-player pool with one scum in it.

Plus, what is your problem with my fake VT claim. This is a game. Not reality. Honesty is extremely important to me in Real life, but not here. It's a game. A game. Saying stuff like I made a horrible mistake is ludicrous. If anything, I didn't play very well. Of course, I am a PR, I'm still alive, which may or may not be because I made you believe that I'm a VT, and I have a plan that would have already won us the game if it wasn't for you, so I really don't see how I'm playing bad. But EVEN IF I am, it doesn't matter. I told you, if one town dies, you can lynch me. If I'm scum, profit. If I'm town and tellling the truth, profit. why are you still arguing???

[silverspawn]

Did I ever say we shouldn't claim? I opened today with a suggestion to massclaim and so far I'm following faust's plan exactly.

you are not following faust's plan, because you didn't follow #1. I said I'm not one of those roles, joth said it, you didn't.

[Jimmmmm]

I think each PR should decide on their own if they think a claim is worthwhile.

Each PR can look at the possible setups and decide if there are specific combinations work testing for.  If you play Hearthstone, this is dropping your 1 mana minion to test for Mirror Image before dropping your big one.

It has been shown that claiming at this point doesn't catch anyone.  I don't know why anyone would push so hard for everyone to claim now that we know it's useless (in the context of finding the fake claim).  Someone claiming Detective now just let's scum know who is what.

Why is this not clear?  Sure, if two of the three claim the same role, then woo hoo.  But that would be fairly stupid, given scum know the actual setup within 2 groupings no matter what.

Really? We have guaranteed one scum in four and you don't think we should try to catch scum/create ICs within that group?

[Jimmmmm]

Did I ever say we shouldn't claim? I opened today with a suggestion to massclaim and so far I'm following faust's plan exactly.

you are not following faust's plan, because you didn't follow #1. I said I'm not one of those roles, joth said it, you didn't.

I did.

[silverspawn]

The worst thing about this is that I totally don't think you are scum ash. If you were, okay, you're making things more complicated to screw with the plan which you know will probably just win us the game. Legit scum play. And, you're doing it really good too. If you are scum, I think you're playing a great game. It's just that I don't think you are.