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[A Drowned Kernel]

Another fun question: faust, how has this affected your read of Glooble?

[Jimmmmm]

In Jimmmmm's world, scummy actions are not anti-town.  I don't recall players calling others out in this fashion:  "hey, that's a scummy thing to do, but definitely pro-town, so keep it up!"  Like, what's the use?

If you're looking for an example of a strawman, here it is.

So yes, EFHW said Town shouldn't lie (ie she's against Town lying), and you implied that she meant Town wouldn't lie (ie it's scummy).

The bolded portion is what is so insulting.

Insulting how? Even if I'm wrong and you didn't imply that, or didn't mean to, how is it insulting for me to simply state that you did a thing? Is it more insulting than saying something like, "In ash's world, this absurd conclusion is true"?

How does "town wouldn't lie" = "it's scummy"?

Because the game is all about trying to figure out what people would do as Town compared to what they would do as scum. If that's not what Towny/scummy means then we shouldn't use those words when deciding on a lynch.

And when did I say/imply that?

When you implied that EFHW's statement that lying is anti-Town but not scummy was contradictory, and then said "EFHW said: It is scummy to do X." That is literally you saying that EFHW said lying was scummy.

Also, if EFHW did say town shouldn't do something, and then town did do that something, what adjective would she use to describe that?

I'm guessing anti-Town.

[ashersky]

Because the game is all about trying to figure out what people would do as Town compared to what they would do as scum. If that's not what Towny/scummy means then we shouldn't use those words when deciding on a lynch.

As I point out, it appears that I am the only player that uses towny/scummy as descriptive adjectives for actions, players, etc. in the way that I do.  I disagree with your description of what this game is all about, and so I guess I disagree about the way those words should be used.  But again, I tried to address this, and cayvie weighed in there.

If everyone else uses the Jimmmmm's Dictionary of Mafia Terms version, there's nothing I can do about it.  I just don't have a copy, so I have no way to look up the words.

[ashersky]

Quotefail.

Because the game is all about trying to figure out what people would do as Town compared to what they would do as scum. If that's not what Towny/scummy means then we shouldn't use those words when deciding on a lynch.

As I point out, it appears that I am the only player that uses towny/scummy as descriptive adjectives for actions, players, etc. in the way that I do.  I disagree with your description of what this game is all about, and so I guess I disagree about the way those words should be used.  But again, I tried to address this, and cayvie weighed in there.

If everyone else uses the Jimmmmm's Dictionary of Mafia Terms version, there's nothing I can do about it.  I just don't have a copy, so I have no way to look up the words.

[Jimmmmm]

If everyone else uses the Jimmmmm's Dictionary of Mafia Terms version, there's nothing I can do about it.  I just don't have a copy, so I have no way to look up the words.

Try this.

Scummy: "To make actions that scum are more likely to make. This is similar to, but distinct from, Anti-Town (hinder[ing] the Town's ability to achieve their Win Condition)."

[faust]

In Jimmmmm's world, scummy actions are not anti-town.  I don't recall players calling others out in this fashion:  "hey, that's a scummy thing to do, but definitely pro-town, so keep it up!"  Like, what's the use?

Well, claiming scum is a scummy thing to do, but usually pro-town.

[faust]

Another fun question: faust, how has this affected your read of Glooble?

I'm not too happy with it, but it probably makes him townier.

[ashersky]

If everyone else uses the Jimmmmm's Dictionary of Mafia Terms version, there's nothing I can do about it.  I just don't have a copy, so I have no way to look up the words.

Try this.

Scummy: "To make actions that scum are more likely to make. This is similar to, but distinct from, Anti-Town (hinder[ing] the Town's ability to achieve their Win Condition)."

Order received, captain.

I will just have to train myself to not use the word.  I truly believe there is no way to determine if an action is more likely to be made by scum or town.  (Obviously I am not referring to role powers/factional powers, etc.)  If the requirement for me to call something scummy is for it to be an action that "scum are more likely to make," I don't see how I can use the word.  Nor can I see how anyone can, given I find it very hard to believe anyone can prove that statement.

That definition provided also precludes one whole set of usage.  It's either "That action is scummy" (describing the action as one that scum are more likely to make" OR "ashersky is scummy" (describing that ashersky is making actions that scum are more likely to make).  (I am ignoring that "make action" does really "make sense" and should be take action.)

The way the definition reads to me, it appears to be saying "to be scummy" = "to make actions that scum are more likely to make" so in that sense, I think it described players, not actions.

Can we extrapolate, then, that actions taken by players who meet the above definition of scummy can also be called scummy?

Anyway, I will just have to look for another word to describe things that I find...reasontovoteable?

[ashersky]

In Jimmmmm's world, scummy actions are not anti-town.  I don't recall players calling others out in this fashion:  "hey, that's a scummy thing to do, but definitely pro-town, so keep it up!"  Like, what's the use?

Well, claiming scum is a scummy thing to do, but usually pro-town.

As town, or as scum?

I would content that scum claiming scum is both towny and pro-town (as an action in and of itself).

[Jimmmmm]

Order received, captain.

I really don't understand where this hostility is coming from.

[ashersky]

Order received, captain.

I really don't understand where this hostility is coming from.

It was just a response to your imperative sentence.

Captain is just a thing I say sometimes -- like hoss or cuz.  It's also pronounced captn.

[faust]

I truly believe there is no way to determine if an action is more likely to be made by scum or town.

So what does this mean?

TLDR: faust fakes not knowing something he definitely should have known.  That's a scum move right there.

[Jimmmmm]

Anyway, I will just have to look for another word to describe things that I find...reasontovoteable?

You can vote for someone for any number of reasons. Typically you participate in lynching someone because you think they're more likely to be scum than other options. Anyway that's the pro-Town move.

[faust]

In Jimmmmm's world, scummy actions are not anti-town.  I don't recall players calling others out in this fashion:  "hey, that's a scummy thing to do, but definitely pro-town, so keep it up!"  Like, what's the use?

Well, claiming scum is a scummy thing to do, but usually pro-town.

As town, or as scum?

I would content that scum claiming scum is both towny and pro-town (as an action in and of itself).

If I needed to know whether a person was town or scum before deciding whether their action was scummy, then then term would be useless.

[ashersky]

I truly believe there is no way to determine if an action is more likely to be made by scum or town.

So what does this mean?

TLDR: faust fakes not knowing something he definitely should have known.  That's a scum move right there.

It's me saying that you did something that I think scum would do.  Why?

[ashersky]

In Jimmmmm's world, scummy actions are not anti-town.  I don't recall players calling others out in this fashion:  "hey, that's a scummy thing to do, but definitely pro-town, so keep it up!"  Like, what's the use?

Well, claiming scum is a scummy thing to do, but usually pro-town.

As town, or as scum?

I would content that scum claiming scum is both towny and pro-town (as an action in and of itself).

If I needed to know whether a person was town or scum before deciding whether their action was scummy, then then term would be useless.

The term has been rendered useless, as far as I can tell.

[faust]

I truly believe there is no way to determine if an action is more likely to be made by scum or town.

So what does this mean?

TLDR: faust fakes not knowing something he definitely should have known.  That's a scum move right there.

It's me saying that you did something that I think scum would do.  Why?

Doesn't that imply that you think the action is more likely to be made by scum?

[ashersky]

I truly believe there is no way to determine if an action is more likely to be made by scum or town.

So what does this mean?

TLDR: faust fakes not knowing something he definitely should have known.  That's a scum move right there.

It's me saying that you did something that I think scum would do.  Why?

Doesn't that imply that you think the action is more likely to be made by scum?

No.  I don't know if it is MORE likely to be taken by scum than town.  I just think it is something scum would do.

[faust]

In Jimmmmm's world, scummy actions are not anti-town.  I don't recall players calling others out in this fashion:  "hey, that's a scummy thing to do, but definitely pro-town, so keep it up!"  Like, what's the use?

Well, claiming scum is a scummy thing to do, but usually pro-town.

As town, or as scum?

I would content that scum claiming scum is both towny and pro-town (as an action in and of itself).

If I needed to know whether a person was town or scum before deciding whether their action was scummy, then then term would be useless.

The term has been rendered useless, as far as I can tell.

I'm just trying to understand how you would use it in a (from your perspective) non-useless way.

[faust]

I truly believe there is no way to determine if an action is more likely to be made by scum or town.

So what does this mean?

TLDR: faust fakes not knowing something he definitely should have known.  That's a scum move right there.

It's me saying that you did something that I think scum would do.  Why?

Doesn't that imply that you think the action is more likely to be made by scum?

No.  I don't know if it is MORE likely to be taken by scum than town.  I just think it is something scum would do.

So there are actions that scum would not do? Which are thus more likely to be made by town than by scum?

[ashersky]

I truly believe there is no way to determine if an action is more likely to be made by scum or town.

So what does this mean?

TLDR: faust fakes not knowing something he definitely should have known.  That's a scum move right there.

It's me saying that you did something that I think scum would do.  Why?

Doesn't that imply that you think the action is more likely to be made by scum?

No.  I don't know if it is MORE likely to be taken by scum than town.  I just think it is something scum would do.

So there are actions that scum would not do? Which are thus more likely to be made by town than by scum?

I don't know.  We'd like to think that way, but I don't think it's true.  Hammering scum is an example of something we don't think scum would do, but they do, and it's become a thing to think about.

[faust]

I truly believe there is no way to determine if an action is more likely to be made by scum or town.

So what does this mean?

TLDR: faust fakes not knowing something he definitely should have known.  That's a scum move right there.

It's me saying that you did something that I think scum would do.  Why?

Doesn't that imply that you think the action is more likely to be made by scum?

No.  I don't know if it is MORE likely to be taken by scum than town.  I just think it is something scum would do.

So there are actions that scum would not do? Which are thus more likely to be made by town than by scum?

I don't know.  We'd like to think that way, but I don't think it's true.  Hammering scum is an example of something we don't think scum would do, but they do, and it's become a thing to think about.

So what made you pick that action to say "That's a scum move right there." when you could have said the same thing about literally any other of my (or anyone's) actions?

[ashersky]

So what made you pick that action to say "That's a scum move right there." when you could have said the same thing about literally any other of my (or anyone's) actions?

I was making a case on you in that post, not on anyone else.

You are correct -- any action by any player can be believe to be taken by a player of any alignment.  I happen to think your action was taken by you with a non-town alignment.  That doesn't preclude me being incorrect and you taking that action with a town alignment.  It also does not preclude the possibility that you would take that action much more often, or only, with a town alignment.

Hence, I am unable to fulfill the given definition of scummy.  Therefore, it must be a useless use of the word.

Instead, I can only endeavor to find another word to use.  Or another phrasing.  But I doubt I'll come up with anything, so I don't feel like trying.

As such, it seems opinions (at least mine) are worthless in this context.

[ashersky]

Maybe the best I can do is describe my feelings/opinions instead.

I feel that faust may not have the town alignment because when he did X, it caused me to think that way.  That way I'm not calling him or the action scummy, so I can't misuse the word.

Is that acceptable?

[Jimmmmm]

Are you trying to suggest that under the standard definition of scummy you can only apply it when you're certain someone is scum?