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[schadd]

The fact that I'm not dead means that LaLight was probably not scum. I think I have always been killed N1 when he is scum.

Could also indicate that we may have an IC, though who knows.

I keep forgetting that.

lmao lmao

[Swowl]

I may also be responsible for the lack of a death last night.

Also, I can confirm (fwiw) that PPS did have the stick yesterday, and it was (at the time), not broken. I know that seems obvious, but still.

I would like to full claim (myself only, not everyone), but I think we should draft order claim first. That said, I would like 2.7 to take lead on this.

2.7, thoughts?

I’m ok with this. I can verify if he is lying or not after last night.

[Witherweaver]

You can verify if Galzria is lying?

[Swowl]

yes i have a magic Galz ball

[Haddock]

Here are my overnight thoughts:

So I took some notes over the night on D1 and I am going to paraphrase.
1) I found 226 by Ash scummy for deflecting from the PPS lynch. My theory is that mafia would initially deflect from the PPS lynch because they have reason to think he is more likely to be telling the truth.
2) I found 227 by Haddock scummy for the same reason. But moreso.
3) Then I saw a post (which I didn't mark) that made me think scum on WW for the same reason. Then I started to think maybe I was zero-ing in too much on one thing, and I should reconsider which of those three I'm most likely to be wrong about.
4) Saw some towny stuff from WW and scummy stuff from Datswan and scummy stuff from silver and ended up with a scum list of: Datswan, haddock, Ash, silver, in that order. Today I think ash and silver look less scummy for a) being frozen and b) thinking they could block the mafia NK.
5) Realized that Awaclus' only contributions have been in relation to talking about his miller T-shirt and how he thought bidding worked. He even framed himself to be able to do that in his first post about claiming. Seems scummy - like he created something for him to talk about in the game. Added him to the scum list.
6) Got mixed reactions from Ash's late day posts. I noted that I agree with 454 that we should look back at silver's PPS stuff because it's all a bit weird.

Haddock and Datswan are still my best leads for scum I think.

I'm fine claiming item draft order.

I mean, this is gonna look OMGUSy as fuck, but meh, gonna say it anyway:
I think all of this feels super-constructed.

Especially 1+2, which both suggest that ash and I were driving against a PPS lynch, which anyone can see we simply weren't.  We were discussing whether or not we agreed with a mod decision.  Simple as that.

For the record, I can never read PPS, and had no idea where to come down on his lynch.

6 also feels forced.

Also, still alive! Awesome. WIFOM works

I really don't like this post.

Yeah, it's a super scummy post.

I was gonna say "I honestly can't tell whether this is sarcasm."  Then I remembered that 2.7 is an IC.

THE DERP IS REAL.

[schadd]

why did u think e thought he was gonna get killed

[2.71828.....]

why did u think e thought he was gonna get killed

Because I was the IC.  Kill the good guys, you know.

[2.71828.....]

because I am the IC.  I guess past tense isn't really accurate

[schadd]

i mean he forgot you were the IC supposedly, which means he would have to think that there would be some other reason you were suggesting you ought to be killed

[Swowl]

E! - Any thoughts on establishing a potential claim order if people are on board?

[faust]

Don't worry Seprix. WW won't hammer you. We're going to extract every possible delicious ounce of information out of your near-corpse before the final blow.

Vote Count 2.1

Not Voting (16): EFHW, ashersky, Haddock, Awaclus, gkrieg13, SpaceAnemone, schadd, chairs, 2.71828....., DatSwan, JaketheBaseballGod22, Galzria, Dylan32, iguanaiguana, Witherweaver, silverspawn

With 16 alive, it takes 9 to lynch. Day 2 ends November 24 at 6:30 am forum time.

[Haddock]

i mean he forgot you were the IC supposedly, which means he would have to think that there would be some other reason you were suggesting you ought to be killed

No.

I just didn't like the "WIFOM worked" bit of the post.  Not remembering that e was IC, it looked like a potential "scum trying to pass off their (scummy?) behaviour yesterday as intentional".

[Witherweaver]

Huh?

[Haddock]

Huh?

Can't believe I'm still explaining this.

It's not hard.

I forgot e was an IC.

So his post saying
"I'm alive!  Looks like that WIFOM worked."
Looked scummy, since it's the sort of thing scum might say to pass off their questionable day 1 behaviour.

Obviously I'm an idiot.  Can we leave it?

[Witherweaver]

Oh, sorry, I just woke up.

I thought here:

i mean he forgot you were the IC supposedly, which means he would have to think that there would be some other reason you were suggesting you ought to be killed

No.

I just didn't like the "WIFOM worked" bit of the post.  Not remembering that e was IC, it looked like a potential "scum trying to pass off their (scummy?) behaviour yesterday as intentional".

you were talking about yourself, so when you said "it", you were talking about how your post looked to other people.  Because the only thing your post could look like was either legitimate forgetting or trying to construct a townslip.

[2.71828.....]

E! - Any thoughts on establishing a potential claim order if people are on board?

Claim order for draft position? No, no reason for scum to fake claim, no reason we all can't just claim at any time of that's what we are doing

[iguanaiguana]

E! - Any thoughts on establishing a potential claim order if people are on board?

Claim order for draft position? No, no reason for scum to fake claim, no reason we all can't just claim at any time of that's what we are doing

I'm draft 3.

[iguanaiguana]

I mean, this is gonna look OMGUSy as fuck, but meh, gonna say it anyway:
I think all of this feels super-constructed.

Especially 1+2, which both suggest that ash and I were driving against a PPS lynch, which anyone can see we simply weren't.  We were discussing whether or not we agreed with a mod decision.  Simple as that.

For the record, I can never read PPS, and had no idea where to come down on his lynch.

6 also feels forced.

You are right - I didn't spell out my thinking very thoroughly at all.

From a scum perspective, they don't really want to lynch PPS. They know he isn't their scum faction, so he's more likely town to them. So maybe if they can figure out his mistake and clear him as town, they get some towncred for doing that. That's an easy position to take on D1 where it probably won't lead directly to, like, you getting lynched instead. So there is some reason to deflect from PPS' lynch in that case.

Also, any scum with item stealing, who may have realized that PPS was another scum faction, may want him to live past D1 so that they can take his item.

For town, i thought it was pretty clear. PPS is more likely to be lying than telling the truth, and if he is lying, he's scum with an extra kill - so we need to lynch him. If he was town, that would have sucked - but it was the best course of action.

But the way you describe your thinking on it is just polar opposite of that:

Not clear.  This all depends on how the town!recipient of the swordstick receives it.  3 possibilities:

1) You get the swordstick followed immediately by a message saying it has been destroyed.  Then town!PPS would know that they didn't really get anything and (probably) wouldn't say this.
2) You get nothing.  Then town!PPS definitely wouldn't say this.
3) You get an item called "broken swordstick" or something.  Depending on wording it's not necessarily totally obvious that you haven't actually got a useful thing - til later.  Then town!PPS might say this at first and figure it out later - which is pretty much PPS's current narrative.


If PPS is scum, he has to guess which of those three options faust would have gone with.  I think number 3 is by far the least likely, so (assuming PPS thinks at all like me) why would scum!PPS assume that this is how it works?
Unless it's a true derpy scumslip and he didn't mean to claim swordstick at all.

Here you are basically saying that if PPS is scum, he must have really screwed up bad, so let's not lynch him? Yuck

Meh.  I don't really agree with this.

We've removed the ability for scum to lie STUPIDLY.  Which they could never get away with doing anyway.

Like, if scum make a claim that directly contradicts the setup, that's a kind of a lie; it's called a scumslip.   
Had PPS been lying, essentially this would have just meant he'd made a dumb scumslip.  But he wasn't, so we're fine.  The mod has always been expected to clarify setup questions like this.

I would agree with you if your point were that this should have been clarified before there was any opportunity for anyone to accidentally tell a lie they could get caught in.  This is an issue of "the eternal quest of mods to make their setups 100% clear and unambiguous" - nothing more.

I bolded the scummy part in this post. You're talking as if you have pretty good reason to think PPS isn't lying. Town never got that information, but maybe scum who knows that PPS isn't on their town has reason to think he probably isn't lying. So it's a scummy conclusion.

Vote: Haddock

[iguanaiguana]

"on their town" = "on their team"

This game is totally dead - no one (except me, now) has even voted yet this game phase. I was originally holding off voting to wait for any claims, but at this point we have no excuse to not be scum hunting I think.

[Haddock]

I mean, this is gonna look OMGUSy as fuck, but meh, gonna say it anyway:
I think all of this feels super-constructed.

Especially 1+2, which both suggest that ash and I were driving against a PPS lynch, which anyone can see we simply weren't.  We were discussing whether or not we agreed with a mod decision.  Simple as that.

For the record, I can never read PPS, and had no idea where to come down on his lynch.

6 also feels forced.

You are right - I didn't spell out my thinking very thoroughly at all.

From a scum perspective, they don't really want to lynch PPS. They know he isn't their scum faction, so he's more likely town to them. So maybe if they can figure out his mistake and clear him as town, they get some towncred for doing that. That's an easy position to take on D1 where it probably won't lead directly to, like, you getting lynched instead. So there is some reason to deflect from PPS' lynch in that case.

Also, any scum with item stealing, who may have realized that PPS was another scum faction, may want him to live past D1 so that they can take his item.

For town, i thought it was pretty clear. PPS is more likely to be lying than telling the truth, and if he is lying, he's scum with an extra kill - so we need to lynch him. If he was town, that would have sucked - but it was the best course of action.

This is such a pile of bullshit. 

"Clearing people as town" is not something scum are trying that hard to do.  Especially not if their way of trying to do it involves epic setup speculation.  I mean, come on.

The thing about item stealing is pure speculation.

The bolded part is also rubbish.  We had no such information.  There are probably more town than non-town, so in fact he was more likely to be telling the truth.  All you're saying is that you read PPS in a certain way, which turned out to be right.  Well done you.  But come on.  We got lucky - there's no way we knew it was "the best course of action".

But the way you describe your thinking on it is just polar opposite of that:

Not clear.  This all depends on how the town!recipient of the swordstick receives it.  3 possibilities:

1) You get the swordstick followed immediately by a message saying it has been destroyed.  Then town!PPS would know that they didn't really get anything and (probably) wouldn't say this.
2) You get nothing.  Then town!PPS definitely wouldn't say this.
3) You get an item called "broken swordstick" or something.  Depending on wording it's not necessarily totally obvious that you haven't actually got a useful thing - til later.  Then town!PPS might say this at first and figure it out later - which is pretty much PPS's current narrative.


If PPS is scum, he has to guess which of those three options faust would have gone with.  I think number 3 is by far the least likely, so (assuming PPS thinks at all like me) why would scum!PPS assume that this is how it works?
Unless it's a true derpy scumslip and he didn't mean to claim swordstick at all.

Here you are basically saying that if PPS is scum, he must have really screwed up bad, so let's not lynch him? Yuck

Why is this yuck?  This is a perfectly reasonable argument to make.  For PPS to be scum, he needed to have made a truly monumentally stupid scumslip.  Which, as it turned out, he did - lucky us - but seriously, if someone is either town or monumentally stupid scum, I'm assuming they're likelier to be town any day.

Meh.  I don't really agree with this.

We've removed the ability for scum to lie STUPIDLY.  Which they could never get away with doing anyway.

Like, if scum make a claim that directly contradicts the setup, that's a kind of a lie; it's called a scumslip.   
Had PPS been lying, essentially this would have just meant he'd made a dumb scumslip.  But he wasn't, so we're fine.  The mod has always been expected to clarify setup questions like this.

I would agree with you if your point were that this should have been clarified before there was any opportunity for anyone to accidentally tell a lie they could get caught in.  This is an issue of "the eternal quest of mods to make their setups 100% clear and unambiguous" - nothing more.

I bolded the scummy part in this post. You're talking as if you have pretty good reason to think PPS isn't lying. Town never got that information, but maybe scum who knows that PPS isn't on their town has reason to think he probably isn't lying. So it's a scummy conclusion.

This is a conversation ash and I were having about what constitutes correct mod behaviour.  It's a completely abstract and hypothetical discussion.   
If you'd actually read the context (rather than just cherrypicking things to misrepresent me), you would see that the WHOLE BASIS of this discussion with ash was the idea (of ash's) that faust, by intervening, had essentially confirmed PPS as telling the truth and therefore town.  That was literally the basis of his argument.  In this post I'm just talking from that perspective.



There's so much bullshit here that I'm finding it very difficult to believe it's coming from a town place. 
vote: iguana

"on their town" = "on their team"

This game is totally dead - no one (except me, now) has even voted yet this game phase. I was originally holding off voting to wait for any claims, but at this point we have no excuse to not be scum hunting I think.

Everyone was waiting for claims.  And your scumhunting is demonstrably bad.  So don't get all up on your high horse.

I was draft order 16, btw

[Witherweaver]

Why would PPS be more likely to be lying?

[iguanaiguana]

I mean, this is gonna look OMGUSy as fuck, but meh, gonna say it anyway:
I think all of this feels super-constructed.

Especially 1+2, which both suggest that ash and I were driving against a PPS lynch, which anyone can see we simply weren't.  We were discussing whether or not we agreed with a mod decision.  Simple as that.

For the record, I can never read PPS, and had no idea where to come down on his lynch.

6 also feels forced.

You are right - I didn't spell out my thinking very thoroughly at all.

From a scum perspective, they don't really want to lynch PPS. They know he isn't their scum faction, so he's more likely town to them. So maybe if they can figure out his mistake and clear him as town, they get some towncred for doing that. That's an easy position to take on D1 where it probably won't lead directly to, like, you getting lynched instead. So there is some reason to deflect from PPS' lynch in that case.

Also, any scum with item stealing, who may have realized that PPS was another scum faction, may want him to live past D1 so that they can take his item.

For town, i thought it was pretty clear. PPS is more likely to be lying than telling the truth, and if he is lying, he's scum with an extra kill - so we need to lynch him. If he was town, that would have sucked - but it was the best course of action.

This is such a pile of bullshit. 

"Clearing people as town" is not something scum are trying that hard to do.  Especially not if their way of trying to do it involves epic setup speculation.  I mean, come on.

The thing about item stealing is pure speculation.

The bolded part is also rubbish.  We had no such information.  There are probably more town than non-town, so in fact he was more likely to be telling the truth.  All you're saying is that you read PPS in a certain way, which turned out to be right.  Well done you.  But come on.  We got lucky - there's no way we knew it was "the best course of action".

But the way you describe your thinking on it is just polar opposite of that:

Not clear.  This all depends on how the town!recipient of the swordstick receives it.  3 possibilities:

1) You get the swordstick followed immediately by a message saying it has been destroyed.  Then town!PPS would know that they didn't really get anything and (probably) wouldn't say this.
2) You get nothing.  Then town!PPS definitely wouldn't say this.
3) You get an item called "broken swordstick" or something.  Depending on wording it's not necessarily totally obvious that you haven't actually got a useful thing - til later.  Then town!PPS might say this at first and figure it out later - which is pretty much PPS's current narrative.


If PPS is scum, he has to guess which of those three options faust would have gone with.  I think number 3 is by far the least likely, so (assuming PPS thinks at all like me) why would scum!PPS assume that this is how it works?
Unless it's a true derpy scumslip and he didn't mean to claim swordstick at all.

Here you are basically saying that if PPS is scum, he must have really screwed up bad, so let's not lynch him? Yuck

Why is this yuck?  This is a perfectly reasonable argument to make.  For PPS to be scum, he needed to have made a truly monumentally stupid scumslip.  Which, as it turned out, he did - lucky us - but seriously, if someone is either town or monumentally stupid scum, I'm assuming they're likelier to be town any day.

Meh.  I don't really agree with this.

We've removed the ability for scum to lie STUPIDLY.  Which they could never get away with doing anyway.

Like, if scum make a claim that directly contradicts the setup, that's a kind of a lie; it's called a scumslip.   
Had PPS been lying, essentially this would have just meant he'd made a dumb scumslip.  But he wasn't, so we're fine.  The mod has always been expected to clarify setup questions like this.

I would agree with you if your point were that this should have been clarified before there was any opportunity for anyone to accidentally tell a lie they could get caught in.  This is an issue of "the eternal quest of mods to make their setups 100% clear and unambiguous" - nothing more.

I bolded the scummy part in this post. You're talking as if you have pretty good reason to think PPS isn't lying. Town never got that information, but maybe scum who knows that PPS isn't on their town has reason to think he probably isn't lying. So it's a scummy conclusion.

This is a conversation ash and I were having about what constitutes correct mod behaviour.  It's a completely abstract and hypothetical discussion.   
If you'd actually read the context (rather than just cherrypicking things to misrepresent me), you would see that the WHOLE BASIS of this discussion with ash was the idea (of ash's) that faust, by intervening, had essentially confirmed PPS as telling the truth and therefore town.  That was literally the basis of his argument.  In this post I'm just talking from that perspective.



There's so much bullshit here that I'm finding it very difficult to believe it's coming from a town place. 
vote: iguana

"on their town" = "on their team"

This game is totally dead - no one (except me, now) has even voted yet this game phase. I was originally holding off voting to wait for any claims, but at this point we have no excuse to not be scum hunting I think.

Everyone was waiting for claims.  And your scumhunting is demonstrably bad.  So don't get all up on your high horse.

I was draft order 16, btw

I'll be honest - as a person playing this game, I have trouble digesting the hyper-aggressive way that you respond to someone trying to make a case that you may be scum. Calling everything I say bullshit and rubbish, saying I am getting up on a high horse -- even things like calling PPS monumentally stupid for not reading the fine print on the item he bid for - just seems really unneccessary to me.

If you think I am lying and manufacturing everything I say, why not just ask me questions designed to expose the flaws in my reasoning and make them more clear for everyone to see?

If you can't play a little less crass, I am going to have a hard time arguing with you or treating anything you say as more than just textbook OMGUS.

I will try though!

[iguanaiguana]

Why would PPS be more likely to be lying?

To me the phrases that he used in the first several posts he made related to his claim made it look really clear that he was telling a lie. I can go pull them up and analyze them if you want - but I think I already did that yesterday?

IDK - obviously some people thought PPS was not likely to be telling a lie. My hypothesis when I reread was that there was probably scum in that group. The person I landed on who seemed most scummy in that group was Haddock.

[silverspawn]

moi 11. I was kinda disappointed.

[silverspawn]

though it's an .upgrade from 16 i guess