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[LastFootnote]

Here's a question that won't come up with the published cards, so I'll understand if Donald doesn't give a ruling. It concerns a card that allows you to play an Attack card from your hand. According to the Secret Histories, similar cards existed in playtesting.

If you play such a card with a Band of Misfit in your hand and there's, say, a Cutpurse in the supply, can you play the Band of Misfits as Cutpurse?

[Mic Qsenoch]

I can't see how, Band of Misfits does not have an Attack type, and it doesn't become the card it's imitating until you play it.

[dondon151]

I see it this way: say that you were able to play BoM this way. What stops the BoM from not being the Attack?

[enfynet]

For sake of "theoretical card land" we're going to pretend Cultist costs $4. Can a Cultist trigger a BoM to be played as a Cultist? I can't find a clear answer in the rules...

Attack Card $4 Action-Attack-Looter
+2 Cards (discard 2 cards)
Each other player gains a Copper and a Ruins.
You may play an Attack Card from your hand.

Now, Band of Misfits says:

Play this as if it were an Action card in the Supply costing less than it that you choose. This is that card until it leaves play.

Under "General Rules" in the Dark Ages rule book, "Play" is defined:

"Play" - Playing an Action card means both to put it face-up into the play area, and then to follow the instructions on it. If the card cannot be moved into the play area, the instructions on it are still followed.

Now, Band says you can play it (put it into play and follow the instructions) as if it were another Action card. However, we have not answered -when- Band becomes the other card. Based on the card itself, it is not that other card until it is in the play area. This tells me that if anything triggers "in your hand" it will only see the Band of Misfits and not some other card. The same can be said if an Attack triggers players to reveal their hand and discard a card costing $5 or more. Band cannot make itself "immune" to the attack by pretending it's a Young Witch.

So my answer is: No.

Band of Misfits: When you play this, you pick an Action card from the Supply that costs less than it, and treat this card as if it were the card you chose. Normally this will just mean that you follow the instructions on the card you picked. So, if you play Band of Misfits and Fortress is in the Supply, you could pick that and then you would draw a card and get +2 Actions, since that is what Fortress does when you play it. Band of Misfits also gets the chosen card's cost, name, and types. If you use Band of Misfits as a card that trashes itself, such as Death Cart, you will trash the Band of Misfits (at which point it will just be a Band of Misfits card in the trash). If you use Band of Misfits as a duration card (from Seaside), Band of Misfits will stay in play until next turn, just like the duration card would. If you use Band of Misfits as a Throne Room (from Dominion), King's Court (from Prosperity), or Procession, and use that effect to play a duration card, Band of Misfits will similarly stay in play. If you use Throne Room, King's Court, or Procession to play a Band of Misfits card multiple times, you only pick what to play it as the first time; the other times it is still copying the same card. For example, if you use Procession to play Band of Misfits twice and choose Fortress the first time, you will automatically replay it as Fortress, then trash the Band of Misfits, return it to your hand (it is a Fortress when it's trashed, and Fortress has a when-trashed ability that returns it to your hand), and gain an Action card costing exactly ( more than Band of Misfits, which has left play and so is no longer copying Fortress). If you use Band of Misfits as a card that does something during Clean-up, such as Hermit, it will do that thing during Clean-up. When you play Horn of Plenty (from Cornucopia), it counts Band of Misfits as whatever Band of Misfits was played as; for example if you play a Band of Misfits as a Fortress, and then play another Band of Misfits as a Scavenger, and then play Horn of Plenty, you will gain a card costing up to . Band of Misfits can only be played as a card that is visible in the Supply; it cannot be played as a card after its pile runs out, and cannot be played as a non-Supply card like Mercenary; it can be played as the top card of the Ruins pile, but no other Ruins, and can only be played as Sir Martin when that is the top card of the Knights pile.

[eHalcyon]

Now, Band says you can play it (put it into play and follow the instructions) as if it were another Action card. However, we have not answered -when- Band becomes the other card. Based on the card itself, it is not that other card until it is in the play area. This tells me that if anything triggers "in your hand" it will only see the Band of Misfits and not some other card. The same can be said if an Attack triggers players to reveal their hand and discard a card costing $5 or more. Band cannot make itself "immune" to the attack by pretending it's a Young Witch.

So my answer is: No.

I disagree.  Band of Misfits becomes the other card in the act of playing it.  The Young Witch example is irrelevant -- we are talking about playing BoM, not when BoM is just sitting in your hand.

You say "it is not that other card until it is in the play area".  Well then, when is a card in the play area?  Only after you've played it?    For your conclusion to make sense, this must be your assumption.  But if this is the case, then consider what happens when I play BoM as any card.

I choose to play BoM as a card.
I am now playing BoM.  Since I am still playing it, it is not in the play area.  Since it is not in the play area, it is not yet the card I chose.

I have played BoM.  BoM is now in the play area.  BoM is now the card I chose.  So, the card I chose is now in play, but by your argument, the card I chose was never played.  The card that was played was BoM.  So I don't get the benefit from the card I chose at all.  BoM does nothing.  Ever.




I argue instead that you have to either say that BoM is the card you want it to be during the act of playing it, or that BoM is in the playing area during that process.

Either way, BoM is whatever card it needs to be when it needs to be, so it should be playable.


That is:

I play a hypothetical card that says "You may play an Attack card".  I have BoM in hand and Cutpurse is on the table.

I decide to exercise the option to play a Cutpurse.

I play BoM AS Cutpurse, and so BoM IS Cutpurse.  the original card says that I can play an attack, and in the act of playing BoM it IS an attack card, so it is legal.





All this said, I think it is really easy to argue either opinion.  If such a card was ever made, I think it would HAVE to be a ruling from Donald X.  For a fan card, just make a ruling yourself and fix it in the future if an official ruling ever contradicts it.

[enfynet]

I realize that I was making an assumption that the previous card said "play an Attack card from your hand." which isn't entirely the case. If it said simply "play an Attack card." (sans location) then yes, it would work.

[eHalcyon]

I realize that I was making an assumption that the previous card said "play an Attack card from your hand." which isn't entirely the case. If it said simply "play an Attack card." (sans location) then yes, it would work.

I'm not sure what you mean.  If the hypothetical card said "play an attack card from your hand", I still think BoM could copy an attack card and legally be played.

The key thing is that BoM does not transform into the card in question upon being played.  It IS the card it copies.  Even saying "copies" is misleading because, for all intents and purposes, you are supposed to treat it as the copied card from the moment you are playing it to the moment it leaves the play area.

[AJD]

I realize that I was making an assumption that the previous card said "play an Attack card from your hand." which isn't entirely the case. If it said simply "play an Attack card." (sans location) then yes, it would work.

I'm not sure what you mean.  If the hypothetical card said "play an attack card from your hand", I still think BoM could copy an attack card and legally be played.

The key thing is that BoM does not transform into the card in question upon being played.  It IS the card it copies.  Even saying "copies" is misleading because, for all intents and purposes, you are supposed to treat it as the copied card from the moment you are playing it to the moment it leaves the play area.

Well so consider the Throne Room model. Throne Room says "Choose an Action card in your hand. Play it twice." I think we can agree that if a card says "Choose an Attack card in your hand; play it" you can't use that to play Band of Misfits as Swindler; when Band of Misfits is in your hand it is definitely still Band of Misfits, and not an Attack. So the question is, does "Play an Attack card from your hand" mean "Choose an Attack card in your hand; play it," or does it mean "Play a card from your hand such that the card you play is an Attack"?

I think, in order to avoid such an ambiguity, a card that had this effect would probably want to have the Throne Room wording, and thus exclude Band of Misfits. But what do I know.

[dondon151]

Either way, BoM is whatever card it needs to be when it needs to be, so it should be playable.

Hey, it's Schrodinger's BoM - it's every Action card costing less than it in the supply after leaves the hand, and remains so until it enters play!

[SirPeebles]

Imagine that there are no Action cards left in the Supply costing $4 or fewer -- maybe the piles are empty, maybe there were none to start with, maybe lots of Fool's Gold, Gardens, or Potion cost cards.

Then what happens when you play BoM?  I assume you can still play it, perhaps even need to if a Golem tells you to, and that it will just sit there in play as a BoM.

This tells me that you do not choose the card BoM is played as until you play BoM.

[LastFootnote]

I can see both sides of the argument, but I think I have to side with those who say it can't be done. This theoretical card is most likely implicitly looking at the card while it's still in your hand, at which point Band of Misfits is not an Attack card. If it read, 'Choose an Attack card from your hand. Play it." there would be even less question.

[Jeebus]

You can't play the BoM as a Cutpurse in that case. I'm certain of this.
Or if Cultist cost $4, you can't use it to play a BoM as another Cultist.

The timing of BoM is that it has a "before you play this" (or "when you would play this" if you will) ability, which is that you choose a card from Supply. It's similar to Trader. Trader's "when you would gain" ability triggers when you actually are about to gain a card. There must be an event telling you that you gain a card already. Only then does Trader's when-would-gain trigger. Similarly, only when you are actually about to play BoM, does BoM's before-play trigger. It's how BoM has to work. Donald has confirmed this in another thread too.

Playing BoM "as if it were" a card means that it is that card from the moment it enters play until the moment it leaves play. It's never that card when it's in your hand.

So what happens is this:

1) Before-play: You choose a card in Supply costing less than it.
2) Play: BoM enters play, becoming the card you chose.
3) As normal, any "when a player plays an Attack card" abilities are triggered.
4) The card's when-play abilities are resolved.

So in regard to Cultist's "you may play another Cultist", if you were to play a BoM then, you would actually be saying that BoM is a Cultist before you started following BoM's instructions, which is wrong. Cultist allows you to play a card, but only when you are about to play that card, can any before-play abilities trigger. Cultist only allows you to play a Cultist, which doesn't have any before-play abilities.

[eHalcyon]

I look at the timing a bit differently.  Let's go with the $4 Cultist example.

Cultist says I can play another Cultist.  I select a card and try to put it in play.  If it is another Cultist, good for me.  If it is not another Cultist, then it fails and I can't put it into play.  Since it hasn't been put into play, only I see this step -- opponents don't have to see it.

So in that step, I can select BoM and try to put it into play.  This is then "when would play" phase, I guess, and at this time BoM takes on the guise of the $4 Cultist.  So it IS another Cultist that I am playing, and it is successful.



This is why I think it is ambiguous and easy to argue both ways.  I agree with AJD though -- if the hypothetical card from the OP said "choose an Attack card in your hand; play it" then this would not work because BoM isn't the card it copies until this "when would play" phase.  but if the card just said "play an Attack card" then BoM would work.

Hmm, I disagreed with enfynet earlier but I think I'm coming around that "play an Attack card from your hand" implicitly checks in the selection stage, making BoM illegal.

But yeah -- ambiguous, needs ruling from the designer (be it the fan card designer or Donald X if a future card brought up this issue).

[eHalcyon]

Imagine that there are no Action cards left in the Supply costing $4 or fewer -- maybe the piles are empty, maybe there were none to start with, maybe lots of Fool's Gold, Gardens, or Potion cost cards.

Then what happens when you play BoM?  I assume you can still play it, perhaps even need to if a Golem tells you to, and that it will just sit there in play as a BoM.

This tells me that you do not choose the card BoM is played as until you play BoM.

No, you choose it just before you play it.  If there is nothing valid to choose, then it ends up as just BoM.  It has to be this way.  If BoM were an on-play effect, then you would technically never play the card it copies.  You would play BoM, and then after it is in play, it is the card you choose.  But since you never played it, you would not get the on-play effects of the chosen card; you would only get "while this is in play" kind of effects.  Therefore you must choose the copied card in some sort of "when you would play" phase.  Then BoM gets played AS that card.  It never gets played as itself except when there are no valid targets.

[Jeebus]

I look at the timing a bit differently.  Let's go with the $4 Cultist example.

Cultist says I can play another Cultist.  I select a card and try to put it in play.  If it is another Cultist, good for me.  If it is not another Cultist, then it fails and I can't put it into play.  Since it hasn't been put into play, only I see this step -- opponents don't have to see it.

So in that step, I can select BoM and try to put it into play.  This is then "when would play" phase, I guess, and at this time BoM takes on the guise of the $4 Cultist.  So it IS another Cultist that I am playing, and it is successful.

"Trying to put a card into" play is a part of playing it. You can't "try to put a card into play" before you actually are in the process of playing it. Let's take Trader again. People were asking back then if you can try to gain a card from an empty pile and then use Trader's "when-would-gain" ability. The answer is of course that you can't. You weren't about to gain a card then, because you weren't allowed to gain from an empty pile! Which is to say, you aren't allowed to "try to gain" something which will fail, only to sneak in Trader's ability. You are only allowed to "try to gain" what you are actually allowed to gain. So: Cultist itself does not let you try to put any card into play. It only lets you try to put Cultist into play.

Another way of saying this is that, yes, any instruction in Dominion that involves choosing a card, actually involves choosing a card first, as a separate step. This has been brought up many times (most often with regards to gaining). So you first choose the Cultist (it could be you have several and in that case you actually choose one, but in either case it's a separate step), then you play it.

So, not ambiguous at all.

EDIT: Even if choosing wasn't a separate step, it wouldn't work actually, for reasons I've already stated. If you select a card from Cultist and "try to play" it, seeing if it's another Cultist, BoM's before-play ability would not trigger. It's only when you say "yes, I'm playing this card" that you actually get to even do anything that the card says (except below-the-line abilities). This is basic Dominion, so it shouldn't really be controversial.

[eHalcyon]

I think the example that points me towards my line of thinking is how BoM works with Throne Room.  If you choose the card when you play BoM, then using it with TR should allow you to choose two different cards.  But you choose before you actually play it.  All Throne Room sees is the card that you chose, which is why you only get to choose once and play that chosen card twice.  So in the same vein, I think you could choose $4-Cultist and play it with the instruction from another Cultist.  The original Cultist only ever sees BoM as Cultist, not as BoM, and so it is legal.

[Jeebus]

I think the example that points me towards my line of thinking is how BoM works with Throne Room.  If you choose the card when you play BoM, then using it with TR should allow you to choose two different cards.  But you choose before you actually play it.  All Throne Room sees is the card that you chose, which is why you only get to choose once and play that chosen card twice.  So in the same vein, I think you could choose $4-Cultist and play it with the instruction from another Cultist.  The original Cultist only ever sees BoM as Cultist, not as BoM, and so it is legal.

Ah, but Throne Room is a special case. There has actually been a huge thread about TR and BoM: http://forum.dominionstrategy.com/index.php?topic=4083.0

In the end Donald decided that there was a special rule with TR (and KC and Procession) on BoM, in order to make it work like it said in the rulebook. Without the special rule, TR + BoM would work differently. But only with cards that remove themselves from play. If you play TR + BoM as a Smithy, you would not be able to choose a different card the second time, because it's still in play. The big question was with cards like Feast. When BoM is in the trash, it's not a Feast anymore. Without the special rule, you could choose a new card then, but in fact it wouldn't do you any good, because BoM would never be that card, since it's not in play. (It's that card as long as it's in play, but it's never in play, so it's never that card.) So you would get nothing the second time. From this conclusion you can also see that BoM can never be anything other than BoM in your hand, because it's not in play yet.