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[Davio]

I get that it's a Victory card. It's a regular Estate, just a bit overgrown.

In the Secret History there's not much said about it: only that you get a prize if you're able to crack it open, an extra card.
But the VP it gives remains 0, I always found that odd. Of course Gardens, Silk Roads, Dukes, etc... can all give 0 VP but they can also give lots more. Overgrown Estate will always remain 0 VP.

Horn of Plenty has the same weirdness, it's a Treasure giving $0. Why not leave the $0 out? Bank doesn't list a value, but has question marks in the corners, so we already knew a Treasure didn't have to specify a fixed amount.

I understand Overgrown Estate couldn't say "when you trash this, +1 VP token" because not everyone with Dark Ages has prosperity.

The 0 just bothers me, that's all.

[ftl]

To avoid confusion.

It's a victory card, so people will want to know its value. If you don't put the zero there, some people might assume it's 1 like an estate. So why not clear up the confusion?

Same with Horn of Plenty. It's a treasure card, so people will want to know what its worth, and all the other treasures give something, so why not be explicit about the fact that it gives 0?

[Awaclus]

Horn of Plenty has the same weirdness, it's a Treasure giving $0. Why not leave the $0 out? Bank doesn't list a value, but has question marks in the corners, so we already knew a Treasure didn't have to specify a fixed amount.

The Finnish translation left it out.

[PitzerMike]

Horn of Plenty has the same weirdness, it's a Treasure giving $0. Why not leave the $0 out? Bank doesn't list a value, but has question marks in the corners, so we already knew a Treasure didn't have to specify a fixed amount.

But HoP does give a fixed amount of $ for your buy phase, which is 0.
It just has an added mechanic on top of that.
Whereas for bank the $ amount for your buy phase is unknown.

[shMerker]

Another way to frame the OE question is "Why is this card a victory card and not a pure shelter" and then you get the answer that "victory card" means other things aside from "gives points" when you also have Scout or Silk Road or whatever in play.

It's possible there's a victory card in Guilds whose value is somehow connected to the points on your other cards. I'm not sure if there's any way to make that make mathematical sense. It's just that if anything interacted with victory point values during the game you would still need a ruling for cards with an undefined value because of Gardens, Vineyards, etc. and there would be no need to put a number on Overgrown estate.

At any rate it's kind of nice that the victory cards are consistent in having defined values. It seems like having the number 0 raises fewer questions than having no number and no explanation on the card as to why. There's a third option of having no number and having explanatory text as on the variable-value VP cards but at that point the 0[Shield] is a lot more concise and conveys the same information.

[popsofctown]

I would have liked it if the whole question was sidestepped by doing something cute that is almost always zero anyway.

"Worth an amount of VP equal to the cost of the cheapest card in your deck"
If you trash all your coppers it can be an Estate, then that's it.

"Worth one VP for each Province remaining in the supply".
That's pretty fun.

[RTT]

"worth 1 VP for  every 5 VP you have at the end of the game(excluding this)"

[eHalcyon]

"worth 1 VP for  every 5 VP you have at the end of the game(excluding this)"

That's usually worth a lot...

[Stealth Tomato]

I would have liked it if the whole question was sidestepped by doing something cute that is almost always zero anyway.

"Worth an amount of VP equal to the cost of the cheapest card in your deck"
If you trash all your coppers it can be an Estate, then that's it.

"Worth one VP for each Province remaining in the supply".
That's pretty fun.

Oo, time to think up strange alternate Victory cards.

"Worth 1 VP for each Province in the Trash"

If you want to make the game awful:
"At the end of the game, name a non-Victory card. All copies of this card are worth 1 VP for each copy of the named card in your opponent's deck."

King - $8. "Worth 2 VP per Province you have."

"Worth 1 VP for each copy of this card in your deck."

[RTT]

Overgrown Province
"Worth 0 VP - when you trash this + 6 cards"

[Awaclus]

"worth 1 VP for  every 5 VP you have at the end of the game(excluding this)"

"Worth 1 VP for every 5 VP you don't have at the end of the game (including this)".

[GendoIkari]

Donald did talk about this a bit, in response to people complaining that the fact that it's a Victory Card leads to unwanted interactions. Donald said that those interactions were wanted. So I think he made it a Victory Card because he wanted things like Crossroads, Silk Roads, Scout, etc, to work with it. Also, I think it's more thematic to have it as a Victory Card, because it's more similar to an Estate.

Horn of Plenty says 0 instead of ? because the value is known... it's 0. Bank has to say ? because it's value changes.

[Davio]

Well, the problem I have with OE is not the Victory part bit, that I get.

It's just the 0 that will (as far as we know) always be a 0.

In the Secret History Donald talks about "cracking open" the OE for a reward. It would have been cool if that would have had to do with Victory points.

[dondon151]

Do you have a problem with the number zero? You know, it has feelings, too.

[soulnet]

I guess at some you could have some card saying things like "1 VP per each other victory card giving less than 3 VP in your deck", and then giving nothing would result in weird questions, while giving 0 is cristal clear. Assuming every Victory card gives some amount of VP (may be variable) is refreshing, as is assuming each Treasure gives some amount of coin when played.

Amalgam - Treasure - $3
If you played other Treasures this turn, this is worth the same as the minimum amount of coin given by a Treasure you have already played when it was played. Otherwise, this is worth $1.

I hate that I cannot say "In play" due to Counterfeit and buying Mint or Mandarin from the Black Market (I mean, it would be less clear if it says "In play", because it would raise questions about Treasures that were played but are not in play, since its at the same time referring to what happened when they were played).

So, it could usually be a Silver, but it can also be way better than that. Note that it would only copy the value and not other effects, so HoP or most of the Prosperity Treasures will nombo with it (except Hoard, which would be great).

[Davio]

Do you have a problem with the number zero? You know, it has feelings, too.

Well, it's not the loneliest number, that would be 1. So what is zero?
0 implies nothingness, total absence of anything.
How many apples are 0 apples? No apples!

How can something that isn't there still have feelings?

[mail-mi]

So, it could usually be a Silver, but it can also be way better than that. Note that it would only copy the value and not other effects, so HoP or most of the Prosperity Treasures will nombo with it (except Hoard, which would be great).

I play platinum, then Amalgam, then 7 coppers.

[Kirian]

Do you have a problem with the number zero? You know, it has feelings, too.

Well, it's not the loneliest number, that would be 1. So what is zero?

I just want to note that as loneliness goes, 2 can be as bad as 1.

[soulnet]

I play platinum, then Amalgam, then 7 coppers.

Great for you, that's not easy to achieve.

[mail-mi]

I play platinum, then Amalgam, then 7 coppers.

Great for you, that's not easy to achieve.

But still, the amalgam doesn't automatically have to be the lowest valued card. It just depends on the kingdom order.

[soulnet]

But still, the amalgam doesn't automatically have to be the lowest valued card. It just depends on the kingdom order.

Well, other special Treasures depend on the order also. Like Contraband, Counterfeit or Bank. You cannot duplicate Bank so easily, and you can also not duplicte a Treasure you want to Counterfeit. If you want to give less information with Contraband, you are bound to have this with value $3 and not $5, and so on... as you say, for standard Treasures, it will most likely take whatever value you want it to take (unless there are Treasures that draw you cards in Guilds or Black Market edge cases).

[eHalcyon]

But still, the amalgam doesn't automatically have to be the lowest valued card. It just depends on the kingdom order.

Well, other special Treasures depend on the order also. Like Contraband, Counterfeit or Bank. You cannot duplicate Bank so easily, and you can also not duplicte a Treasure you want to Counterfeit. If you want to give less information with Contraband, you are bound to have this with value $3 and not $5, and so on... as you say, for standard Treasures, it will most likely take whatever value you want it to take (unless there are Treasures that draw you cards in Guilds or Black Market edge cases).

I think the big point here is that Amalgam as listed can end up being a $3 Gold or Plat in many kingdoms, so it is broken.

[soulnet]

I think the big point here is that Amalgam as listed can end up being a $3 Gold or Plat in many kingdoms, so it is broken.

Ok, maybe it should be tweaked or discarded, but the reference can be made in some other way. In any case, it illustrates my point of each Treasure having a value it is worth, even if its 0, being a good thing, which was the point.

[florrat]

I guess at some you could have some card saying things like "1 VP per each other victory card giving less than 3 VP in your deck"

I think an appropriate name for this card would be "Paradox". Well, it doesn't actually lead to paradoxes, but then you must accept that different copies of the same card can have different VP values.

For example, if your only victory cards are 8 Paradoxes, then it is consistent to have 3 of them being worth 2 VP and the rest worth 3 VP. But that's still weird.

But to try to get the topic back on topic (which is probably hopeless): I like the fact that OE is a victory card. Then the number of victory cards in your starting deck is reduced from 3 to "just" 1 instead of 0, which matters for quite a few cards.

[popsofctown]

I guess at some you could have some card saying things like "1 VP per each other victory card giving less than 3 VP in your deck", and then giving nothing would result in weird questions, while giving 0 is cristal clear. Assuming every Victory card gives some amount of VP (may be variable) is refreshing, as is assuming each Treasure gives some amount of coin when played.

I'm a bit confused here.  "Worth 1 VP for each Province in the supply" is not very vague at all, and already posted in thread, but you used a more vague example ability to serve as an example of why a variable VP OE is a bad idea.. because it's too vague.
Did you skim the thread, or is this a really silly way of strawmanning?