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[Robz888]

Vote: Andrew

[Teproc]

I'm Immanuel Kant. Hey guys, let's talk about stuff.

What's worked lately is sort of just picking someone and lynching them no matter what.

So, pick somebody.

Eh, I'm not totally down with that. I'll pass, thanks.

Why ?

[sudgy]

In that case, I'll not be posting much till Voltaire / Ash / Robz posts and create some controversy I can use for reads.

You still haven't posted since this.  Vote: XerxesPraelor

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm Immanuel Kant. Hey guys, let's talk about stuff.

What's worked lately is sort of just picking someone and lynching them no matter what.

So, pick somebody.

Eh, I'm not totally down with that. I'll pass, thanks.

Why ?

I'd rather have a case on someone instead of picking someone at random. I'm talking about post-RVS here.

[Teproc]

I'm Immanuel Kant. Hey guys, let's talk about stuff.

What's worked lately is sort of just picking someone and lynching them no matter what.

So, pick somebody.

Eh, I'm not totally down with that. I'll pass, thanks.

Why ?

I'd rather have a case on someone instead of picking someone at random. I'm talking about post-RVS here.

What I'm wondering is why you're not "totally" down with that. Seems strange to me : you don't think it's a good idea but it seems you're fine with people doing it regardless, since you're not really opposing it either. Why is that ?

[AndrewisFTTW]

I'm Immanuel Kant. Hey guys, let's talk about stuff.

What's worked lately is sort of just picking someone and lynching them no matter what.

So, pick somebody.

Eh, I'm not totally down with that. I'll pass, thanks.

Why ?

I'd rather have a case on someone instead of picking someone at random. I'm talking about post-RVS here.

What I'm wondering is why you're not "totally" down with that. Seems strange to me : you don't think it's a good idea but it seems you're fine with people doing it regardless, since you're not really opposing it either. Why is that ?

I didn't say I didn't oppose it; I do. But we're pretty much still in RVS so it doesn't matter right now.

[Teproc]

I'm Immanuel Kant. Hey guys, let's talk about stuff.

What's worked lately is sort of just picking someone and lynching them no matter what.

So, pick somebody.

Eh, I'm not totally down with that. I'll pass, thanks.

Why ?

I'd rather have a case on someone instead of picking someone at random. I'm talking about post-RVS here.

What I'm wondering is why you're not "totally" down with that. Seems strange to me : you don't think it's a good idea but it seems you're fine with people doing it regardless, since you're not really opposing it either. Why is that ?

I didn't say I didn't oppose it; I do. But we're pretty much still in RVS so it doesn't matter right now.

vote : AndrewisFTTW

[Teproc]

In case it was unclear : this is a serious vote.

[Robz888]

We are not in RVS. No one mention RVS again.

[sudgy]

Mine isn't RVS either.

(sorry for mentioning RVS)

I mean, Mint isn't RVS either

(sorry again)

(Although I am serious about my vote)

[AndrewisFTTW]

Cool, everybody's serious for once. I like that.

[yuma]

Vote: Andrew

vote: andrew

[yuma]

So I am the mod who ran the setup last night..... obviously that has been modified...

My thoughts from that experience... number claiming I think is a mistake. This game I think is also a bit harder to figure out and thus better for scum... as in the game before players had only one choice of a role to pick from a slot. Some where obviously better roles for mafia (vigs, rolecop) and if someone picked one of those roles they were suspicious. Here... not so much, because someone can have won slot 1 for example and be a strongman, but can fake claim as vengeful or something like that....

One idea that I do have is this:

if we have a SK that was converted to a townie or a survivor (BUT NOT LOVER) I wonder if they should claim. I don't think a SK would fake claim that, maybe they would??? But it basically confirms someone for us as "not mafia" unless mafia fake claims that, but that seems risky unless they won that role... Anyway that is as far as I think claiming should go if it should go at all.

I haven't fully fleshed that idea out, but I think it has potential. It obviously won't be completely trust worthy but it might be... One downside is that we will be guaranteed to not have a JK/Tracker or a Doctor/Roleblocker if that person does claim, but I think having a psuedo-non-mafia-IC might be worth giving scum that knowledge...?

[Robz888]

Yuma, cool SK plan... and I was trying so hard to think of something fun like that!

But I need to think about it...

[Robz888]

I don't think SK would fake that, because we will start looking at then funny if there are multiple kills night after night. And if they don't kill, they are just ultimately putting themselves behind. AND they risk counterclaim by a person who had that slot.

Mafia can't counterclaim. Perhaps they can fake claim if it looks like no one else is going to do that? But then the the true SK knows the mafia guy is lying, so the mafia guy could get killed.

Yeah, I like the plan. Creates a Day 1 IC for us, and that's always a plus.

Anyone seen any problems?

[yuma]

Yuma, cool SK plan... and I was trying so hard to think of something fun like that!

But I need to think about it...

yeah it is more complicated than I initially thought. I started typing and then new things kept popping out at me because the setup has so many different potential differences...

Ash is playing this game, yes? I want him (and everyone else as well, but specifically him cause he just has a really good eye for those sort of things) to look at it before we do anything

I can say that if I were a SK I would have absolutely gone for one of the slots to not be a SK. That was one of my least favorite experiences ever playing mafia so if everyone is like me (if you aren't you should be!) then hopefully someone will have chosen and won to become town aligned

[Robz888]

Yeah, I think the SK's best move was to absolutely pursue Slot 3, if the SK was high enough in the draft. Slot 8 would be okay, but had some pretty desirable town powers, so that doesn't look like the best big for a low drafter. Maybe Slot 9 and hope for an SK-change power.

[EFHW]

Vote Count 1.2

Robz888 (2): XerxesPraelor, mail-mi
Teproc (2): AndrewisFTTW, Axxle
Axxle (2): Voltaire, mcmcsalot
AndrewisFTTW (4): Theorel, Robz888, Teproc, yuma
sudgy (1): A Drowned Kernel
XerxesPraelor (1): sudgy

Not voting (3): scott_pilgrim, ashersky, jothenoah

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

[theorel]

I'm not sure about survivor claiming...survivors aren't exactly ICs, in that they don't share the town's win-con.

I'm pretty sure SK-as-town could claim.  Possibilities for fake-claim include:
scum fake it for IC status.
SK fake-claims it for IC status.

In either case, if there are 2 NKs then it becomes likely that the IC is lying (not guaranteed given PGO).  Of course, there could be a missing NK for a while if we have protective roles, but counting on that for a fake claim seems slightly unreasonable to me.

If mafia claims and SK ever dies, then they're auto-lynched for lying which seems a bit risky to me, especially given the above. 

Now, SK fake-claiming it is interesting, but dangerous, for the following 2 reasons.
1. Increased chance of NK from scum.  (depending if they believe you, and likelihood of protective powers).
2. If 3 mafia die ever, you're already outed.  This seems pretty problematic to the whole SK win-con of last-man-standing.  Like lynch 3 mafia, oops, town already knows who you are.

So, I'd be willing to take a SK-claimed-town at face-value, personally.

[yuma]

Eevee claimed as survivor in Modern Community and ended up winning... with mafia. But he would have taken a town win if he could. Basically the survivor becomes a player that town knows they can count on if we get a lynch or two in. But if the game starts going the other way it quickly becomes a liability, but a liability that is obviously known...

[Voltaire]

And if no-one claims it, it should be pretty easy to figure out if we have a SK or not based on night kills...so...I think I am good with this?

[Voltaire]

Of course, the not-SK-anymore should maybe wait until later in the day to claim, so we have some interactions involving them first.

[yuma]

Of course, the not-SK-anymore should maybe wait until later in the day to claim, so we have some interactions involving them first.

and maybe even a later day? As an IC that gets to choose when to claim in later days has been shown to be more powerful than a beginning of day IC. However, this does raise the possibility of a SK waiting a few days to see if their NKs are blocked or something and using the "IC Claim" as a backup emergency plan... but I guess that is kinda doubtful.

[theorel]

Regarding the survivor situation...

The thing is, with a survivor, you lose lylo.  Scum claim and force survivor to vote with them, otherwise they night-kill survivor.
So, you lose at 7.  So, you have 9 players (1 confirmed survivor), and need to hit scum or lose.  Or you could lynch the survivor and go to the 7-player lylo.  So, town should lynch survivor.  (note that survivor at 9 players could care less which side is lynched from a win-con perspective, which is all the more reason town should lynch them).

Of course, then, you could have lynched them at 11 players, and had the smaller town, improved scum chances situation for 9 players.  Etc, back to day-1, why didn't you just lynch the survivor day-1?  Because it feels bad to just force a single player to lose, when they don't have to.  But the fact is that it hurts town not to lynch that player.

So, in the end, I think town should lynch a survivor day-1 because it improves their chances to win.  Feel bad about it if you like, it sucks to be the survivor, because it's a crappy role.

But, really will town do this?  I dunno...as I said, hard to lynch someone and make them lose to improve your chances of winning.  Especially given you can win together if you just play the deduction game better.  I'd lynch them though, because I play the probability game pretty hard (i.e. I prefer the game-theory side of mafia to the scum-hunting/social deduction side).

Scum won't NK a survivor, so claiming at least benefits the survivor on that side.

Regarding IC-timing-claim-issue.

We also have potential protective roles, which make earlier IC-claims better (because they can be protected, or at least NOT NKed for fear of protection).

Hmm...okay...IC-claim-timing theory:  I think it's (perhaps entirely) dependent on the player.  Some ICs are better "directors" (i.e. can be really effectove as known ICs).  While other players might be better as "detectors" (i.e. finding the scum based on interactions when the IC is unknown).
Like, for ash, delayed IC claim is probably more powerful, because he's really good at figuring out who scum are, but appears super-scummy himself.
For TA(I think?) it might be more powerful to just claim early, because he's just very effective as an IC, directing town and stuff.  (basing this off comments from the last blitz-game, might be wrong).

Anyways, that's my thought on it.  Just don't get shot by the town-vig

[Robz888]

Of course, the not-SK-anymore should maybe wait until later in the day to claim, so we have some interactions involving them first.

and maybe even a later day? As an IC that gets to choose when to claim in later days has been shown to be more powerful than a beginning of day IC. However, this does raise the possibility of a SK waiting a few days to see if their NKs are blocked or something and using the "IC Claim" as a backup emergency plan... but I guess that is kinda doubtful.

I think I would rather he claimed today. At worst it gets him killed, which is hardly a disaster.