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Author Topic: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (Serial Killer wins!)  (Read 131356 times)

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Axxle

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #525 on: April 05, 2014, 05:56:39 pm »

I think scum is slightly less likely to be called out but that was the joth vote, after that the floodgates were open and I don't think the likelyhppd is all that different, just have to look how they react.
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yuma

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #526 on: April 05, 2014, 06:01:00 pm »

Right I was stating the moment that I did that point as the threshold, but it certainly could have been before--or even afterwards--that the shift from town to scum began, if it began at all.

I am certainly not confident that I am right here, more so about joth than scott, but I do think it interesting that some of the lurkers have received so little analysis compared to others and I automatically question why that is...
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Axxle

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #527 on: April 05, 2014, 06:03:20 pm »

Because lurking isn't scummy, having scummy posts is and sp has that whereas others don't really.

Well, maybe xp?
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scott_pilgrim

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #528 on: April 05, 2014, 06:33:26 pm »

I do think it interesting that some of the lurkers have received so little analysis compared to others and I automatically question why that is...

Yeah, this is how I feel too except I'm also a little frustrated since I'm the one being negatively affected by it...I feel like there's a lot of other people lurking, but I feel like I was the only one people ever voted for for lurking (probably forgetting some votes but still).  Maybe it's just kind of random, people wanted to lynch a lurker and just picked me arbitrarily, and then once a wagon starts picking up speed of course it makes sense to get on board, especially since we need 8 to lynch.  I guess it's just frustrating not knowing what I could do or what I could have done to prevent it...

Because lurking isn't scummy, having scummy posts is and sp has that whereas others don't really.

Do you have an example?
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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #529 on: April 05, 2014, 07:24:29 pm »

Just posting to say I haven't been following this closely for the past two days because I was out of town, but I'll fully catch-up some time tomorrow morning.
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Voltaire

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #530 on: April 05, 2014, 09:54:38 pm »

You want a lurker who initially didn't get much attention, gotta be ADK.
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #531 on: April 05, 2014, 10:04:42 pm »

ADK is V/LA but yes, he's my biggest scum read right now.

Still not seeing anything in the SP self-vote thing. Let me know if I'm missing anything.
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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #532 on: April 05, 2014, 10:48:56 pm »

I don't see how I haven't "gotten much attention", there are four people voting for me, and that isn't a new thing.

Scott: lurking is within his meta as I'm familiar with it, but he could be using that to his advantage. Reading his posts, I can see the possibility for scum there, he's fairly noncommittal.

Voltaire: his posts during the Teproc/Yuma fight still seem a little scummy to me. The bit where he freaked out and drunk posted I wouldn't take as evidence either way, that's something town would do and scum would fake.

Axxle: I don't like his latest posts, or how absent he's been today (pot calling the kettle black, I know), I feel like axxle's generally more present than this. Here he shows up and says "not much to say, scott is lurking, I vote scott."

ash: is posting a lot less than he usually does as well, though he's regularly gone on the weekend and maybe he just doesn't see anything since it's day one.

People who I'm feeling towny about: Robz, theorel. They're doing a way better job of contributing to discussion than I am. After a reread Yuma looks townier than before, I get a decent vibe from his posts. joth looks fairly town after he jumps in. Not like 100% but definitely wouldn't lynch today.

XP is a lurky lurker. Is sudgy in this game? What's going on with him?

FTTW seems like normal, but I don't know what he looks like as scum.

My reread here was more of a skim, I'll admit, and I think I'll have to do a more focused one when I can early next week. People I would lynch right now would probably be scott or voltaire. I'm going to keep my vote on Voltaire, because even if he does flip town, I think we'll have a lot of interaction to look at.
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mcmcsalot

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #533 on: April 06, 2014, 12:36:47 am »

I've gotten zero attention and it's wierd.(I may have gotten attention in the insane amout of posts I haven't read)
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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #534 on: April 06, 2014, 12:40:04 am »

Right I was stating the moment that I did that point as the threshold, but it certainly could have been before--or even afterwards--that the shift from town to scum began, if it began at all.

I am certainly not confident that I am right here, more so about joth than scott, but I do think it interesting that some of the lurkers have received so little analysis compared to others and I automatically question why that is...

So just spitballin but if anyone is effecting what lurkers get analyzed its scum picking lurkers to analyze, town wouldn't pick some over others for any reason
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Robz888

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #535 on: April 06, 2014, 02:06:21 am »

I've gotten zero attention and it's wierd.(I may have gotten attention in the insane amout of posts I haven't read)

I think it's because you've just been lynched a lot lately and you're getting a pass. That's why I'm giving you little attention, anyway.
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Axxle

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #536 on: April 06, 2014, 04:33:36 am »

not much to say, scott is lurking, I vote scott.
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Teproc

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #537 on: April 06, 2014, 06:00:07 am »

Responding to stuff as I catch-up.

Ok... but really we have gotten off topic.

To reiterate... I think teproc is scummy because:

1. he attempted to use a "policy vote" (yes I am going to continue calling it that despite our conversation about it... which I don't think anyone wants to get into again) against me and then sought out ways to later justify it
2. has gone out of his way to defend voltaire in a situation where I don't think he should have had such a strong townread on him
3. accusing me of OMGUS and attempting to discredit him when I believe that was apparently not the case.
4. has used a "meta" to justify this--really that I one thing that keeps me coming back to Teproc. Everything he has done this game has been based off meta-reads. Policy voting, townread on Voltaire, not liking claiming. Nothing seems new or original to this game. It is like he is sticking to what he is and not deviating from it in an attempt to seem authentic where I think true authenticity goes with the ebbs and flow and can deviate as the shape of the game adapts...

1. Let's not start this again.
2. I don't have a strong townread on Voltaire. Well, I'm starting to now but I didn't when I was defending him. I had a null read on him, and I saw people voting for him for things he did that were null in my mind, so I pointed it out.
3. Let's not start this again.
4. Very interesting point. It's true, I've been relying on meta a lot of this game, and I guess you're free to find that scummy but... why is it scummy ? Because there's no "original thought" ? What does that even mean ? Why is "original thought" better at catching scum ? We all use meta arguments all the time, and it's a good thing, otherwise we would mislynch mail-mi every game ! I do think meta arguments can be weak but when there's not much to go on, they're better than nothing. Also, you'll notice that my case on you had nothing do with meta (yes, I asked if it was usual for you to be putting a plan forward, but that was after I found you scummy for other things)
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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #538 on: April 06, 2014, 06:07:56 am »

I didn't think Volt was scum before, and I still don't.

So I guess I just don't know what to make from you.

You disagree with both of my cases (on teproc and voltaire) but you find me townie for it and support my pushing those cases but not the cases themselves?

If you are town and think I am town wouldn't you want me to be more focused on people that you find scummy? If you are scum it seems you would be fine with me looking in a direction that isn't you or a scum partner?

Kinda getting wary of Robz here.

I am as well. I know Robz is aware of his meta, but the last time he was this active day 1 (at least in a game I was in) was DWII, where he was scum. Everything he's doing reads townie to me, which is also highly unusual. It doesn't make him scum in my eyes, because lynching someone for being unusually townie would be kind of crazy, but it does worry me a bit.
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Teproc

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #539 on: April 06, 2014, 07:01:27 am »

Well there wasn't that much to respond to I guess. My problem at this point is that ADK is pretty much my only scum read : it's a solid read for day 1 and he's a mjor wagon, but that's not great, so let's do reads and see who I'm forgetting about.

theorel: Town. His whole approach to things this game has read very honest and constructive to me. I disagree with pretty much everything he's said or done (right down to hating the scumscore thing), but nothing here feels forced.

yuma : Town. I still think what started our fight was scummy, but he's been very townie since, especially in the way he moved on from the fight. First time I'm getting a read on yuma day 1, we should fight more often !

scott_pilgrim : Town. Rereading, I kinda convinced myself scott was town : yes there's the whole "oh noes, day 1 is hard" thing but he did that in both DoP and Super Mario, but then he does minorly townie things, like pointing out that Axxle's IC thing doesn't really mean anything and his big reads post which I think is town. Because no one feels an obligation to do them, I think these posts come from town more than scum (myself excepted, I always do them regardless), and his thoughts read genuine to me there.

Voltaire : Slight town. The one thing that has worried me about Voltaire this game is that he's been more jokey than usual, but his recent posts have felt like town!Voltaire freaking out about being lynched in a game where he has strong reads on day 1. Again, the buddying is null and I don't see his sheeping/egging on/whatever you cant to call it on me vs yuma as particularly scummy.

mcmcsalot : Slight town. His comments about knowing the case on Andrew would be crap before even hearing it read townie to me for some reason, and then he's just been behaving like town!mcmc does in general. Even in Battle School where I really thought he was town when he was not, a few of his posts did ring alarm bells, I just ignored them because my town read on him was already solid, and there are no alarm bells ringing here.

XerxesPraelor : Slight town. He's mega-lurking, but the few posts he had read townie to me, especially the way he changed his mind on Voltaire recently, and also him asking people to explain the cases currently going on.

jotheonah : Slight town. Not a fan of his "lack of solidarity among lurkers" comment (reads like he's deflecting to other lurkers) but has otherwise seemed pretty townie, in that he's tried to be useful since he's started posting more.

Robz888 : Null. As I said, his posts are very townie, but his meta is working against him here. Can't bring myself to commit either way.

sudgy : Null. Really needs to post more now that he's out of RMM13.

mail-mi : Slight scum. He's been lurking / VLA, there's nothing townie in his posts and he's voting for S_P, which I think is a scummy wagon.

ashersky : Slight scum. Basically no content, which is very strange for ash (I know he's been V/LA, but he has posted a decent amount since). Went along with Axxle's IC thing which I do not get at all. Has overall flown under the radar which is very unusual.

Axxle : Slight scum. Despite posting a reasonable amount, there is very little content in there. His IC thing really doesn't make sense to me, because how could anyone believe that works ? He's also voting for scott which is not a wagon I like, especially when ADK is right there.

AndrewisFTTW : Slight scum. He's been tunneling on ADK (I know, but still) and contraditing himself all over, but in ways that aren't noticeable before specifically rereading him. He's the first to suggest a joth lurker lynch, then asks the joth voters why they're not voting for other lurkers. He finds scott null but lists him amng the three people he' wants to lynch... Contradictions aren't scummy, but town explains things when they change their mind, whereas here it looks like Andrew either forgot about his previous stances or just hoped it wouldn't be noticed.

A Drowned Kernel : Scum. There's the long empty Axxle vote, then a sheepy vote on yuma, and just a bad feeling overall, like he's trying to adjust his posts to give people what they want, which is of course what scum wants to do. Town does that to an extent, but ADK's posts have felt very forced this game, which is enough to make him a solid day 1 lynch in my book.


OK, so I guess there are scummy people out there ! ADK is still vastly my preferred lynch, but I would also support an Andrew or Axxle lynch, and be ok with ash or mail-mi.
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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #540 on: April 06, 2014, 08:13:47 am »


AndrewisFTTW : Slight scum. He's been tunneling on ADK (I know, but still) and contraditing himself all over, but in ways that aren't noticeable before specifically rereading him. He's the first to suggest a joth lurker lynch, then asks the joth voters why they're not voting for other lurkers. He finds scott null but lists him amng the three people he' wants to lynch... Contradictions aren't scummy, but town explains things when they change their mind, whereas here it looks like Andrew either forgot about his previous stances or just hoped it wouldn't be noticed.i.

I almost jokingly mentioned lynching joth as I was under the impression that he was the biggest lurker in the game. A post count had not been posyed yet. And I only asked Axxle why he voted for joth (was it joth) because he voted him for lurking and according to the post count, there were a couple other people lurking worse than joth. You make this like I asked everyone who vote for joth why they aren't voting for someone else, which is false. I did not list Scott a someone I "want" to lynch, but rather someone I would lynch if everyone presented a good case and he had a majority vote up on him. That's like me saying that you said you want to lynch me, Axxle, ash, and mail-mi in your last sentence but I know you didn't say that. You knew I didn't say that too, so why tell everybody I did?

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AndrewisFTTW

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #541 on: April 06, 2014, 08:15:39 am »

Sorry for typos and omissions of words. I'm on a cell phone and I didn't proofread.
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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #542 on: April 06, 2014, 08:18:57 am »

I think you said you would vote for anyone but would prefer scott,Axxle and AD, so you did single him out among your preferred lynches at that point.
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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #543 on: April 06, 2014, 09:12:40 am »

Ok here is the quote in question:

At this point I could vote for whoever. Just like yuma said, 8 is a big number and I realized how difficult it could potentially be to get a lynch through if we don't cooperate. That said, at this point I would like to lynch ADK, Axxle or Scott.

Andddd.... you're right that's a really weird post. I don't know why I said Scott and I don't know why I said "I would like to lynch". Well let me fix that here. My biggest scum read right now is ADK. Slight scum reads on Axxle and Teproc, but those are more hunches than anything I can really back up.

I guess this means I need to do a full re-read. Sorry for the confusion.
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yuma

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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #544 on: April 06, 2014, 10:53:41 am »

4. Very interesting point. It's true, I've been relying on meta a lot of this game, and I guess you're free to find that scummy but... why is it scummy ? Because there's no "original thought" ? What does that even mean ? Why is "original thought" better at catching scum ? We all use meta arguments all the time, and it's a good thing, otherwise we would mislynch mail-mi every game ! I do think meta arguments can be weak but when there's not much to go on, they're better than nothing. Also, you'll notice that my case on you had nothing do with meta (yes, I asked if it was usual for you to be putting a plan forward, but that was after I found you scummy for other things)

I am not necessarily saying that "original thought" is better at catching scum. It might or might not be. My issue with it is that it seems like a way to mimic scum hunting w/o actually needing to scum hunt--that is always the issue with being scum... you have to fake scumhunt and it is difficult to pull off convincingly. If you just hide behind meta reads (which I think you are predominantly doing) you have a set up script of how to respond to certain situations.

But your case on me was based off meta--your meta. You have established that you don't like theory talk and that you think it is bad for town. I started doing theory talk and you found me scummy for it. That is potentially easy cover to hide behind.
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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #545 on: April 06, 2014, 12:00:39 pm »

Vote Count 1.10

XerxesPraelor (2): sudgy, scott_pilgrim
A Drowned Kernel (4): mcmcsalot, Teproc, AndrewisFTTW, Voltaire
Voltaire (3): A Drowned Kernel, yuma, jotheonah
scott_pilgrim (5): Robz888, mail-mi, ashersky, theorel, Axxle

Not voting (1): XerxesPraelor

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Day 1 ends at 10:00 a.m. on April 8, 2014

« Last Edit: April 06, 2014, 01:51:56 pm by faust »
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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #546 on: April 06, 2014, 12:59:15 pm »

I am as well. I know Robz is aware of his meta, but the last time he was this active day 1 (at least in a game I was in) was DWII, where he was scum. Everything he's doing reads townie to me, which is also highly unusual. It doesn't make him scum in my eyes, because lynching someone for being unusually townie would be kind of crazy, but it does worry me a bit.

This. I have a two-universe explanation for Robz and this is one of them. The less-likely, I think (hope) but one of them.
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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #547 on: April 06, 2014, 03:20:01 pm »

But your case on me was based off meta--your meta. You have established that you don't like theory talk and that you think it is bad for town. I started doing theory talk and you found me scummy for it. That is potentially easy cover to hide behind.

That's a stretch. My belief that theory talk is bad for town isn't a meta, it's what I think. It would be like saying that Robz trying to get a random lurker lynch going = Robz lynching based on meta, because random lurker lynches are part of his meta.

No, really, I don't see how that makes sense at all. You could literally say this of any case.
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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #548 on: April 06, 2014, 07:55:45 pm »

That's a stretch. My belief that theory talk is bad for town isn't a meta, it's what I think.

Maybe I have a confused idea of what a meta is... but isn't this exactly what a meta is?

You have a meta across games that you don't like theory talk. If you came into this game and were talking a lot of theory I would have said to myself... "that is the opposite of Teproc's meta!"
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Re: MXL: The Philosopher's Mafia (D1 starts!)
« Reply #549 on: April 06, 2014, 07:58:39 pm »

Now I need to catch up here.  Will be doing that.
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