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[ashersky]

Ash, do you have any other case against me other than that I "gave myself away" with my terrible case on you?

I think you have had multiple posts which give away the fact that you have more knowledge than the rest of us.  That's my primary scum hunting tactic in all games.  I look for wording choices, odd constructions, anachronisms, etc. which tell me who might be scum.

In the end, anyone can fake anything when it comes to behavior, opinion, etc.  You can't help having the extra knowledge.  How well you hide it is up to you, but subconsciously, you will let things slip (sometimes on purpose).  Everyone does when they are scum.  It's up to town to find it.

Separately, if you want "traditional" scum stuff, like things you might quote in a case: I think your opening post was rolefishing (the one about maybe planning for the hider) because as scum, you don't want to target the hider.  I think you have been pushing bad cases on townies, such as myself.  I think you've made sure to agree with townies at specific junctures to gain towncred (often with Eevee, a few times with me to soften your mislynch case on me, Chairs).

Do I have scumreads on others?  Sure.  But none so strong as on you.

As for the look on my face if you were to somehow flip town?  Yeah, that would suck.  No more than how badly you'll feel if you are town and get me mislynched.

[mcmcsalot]

The more they talk the more ash looks like town and the more TA looks like scum. This particular game is proving quite difficult.

[yuma]

mod request: could the first post be updated with the current information and day start links.

My hard drive burned out a few days ago so I am limited to phone access and will be for the next week. (Stupid me for now backing up my OS so I have to wait for a windows disk) I would very much appreciate the update as it makes navigation much easier. Thanks!

sure

Yuma, is the flavor just flavor, or should we try to read into it?

The only thing I can say about that is what I said before:

This flavor name will be a character from the Movie Clue. One and only one of these flavor names will have intentional significance in regard to roles and/or alignment. This is all I will say on the subject.

and that there is a flavor mini-game where players can attempt to guess who the killer was, where the kills was performed and with what

[ashersky]

and that there is a flavor mini-game where players can attempt to guess who the killer was, where the kills was performed and with what

I think our question here is: do you mean the killer of the person who died in the night, or the killer from the movie/mini-game that is not related to the mafia game?

[yuma]

and that there is a flavor mini-game where players can attempt to guess who the killer was, where the kills was performed and with what

I think our question here is: do you mean the killer of the person who died in the night, or the killer from the movie/mini-game that is not related to the mafia game?

The killer form the movie/mini-game that is not related to the actual mafia game

[ashersky]

and that there is a flavor mini-game where players can attempt to guess who the killer was, where the kills was performed and with what

I think our question here is: do you mean the killer of the person who died in the night, or the killer from the movie/mini-game that is not related to the mafia game?

The killer form the movie/mini-game that is not related to the actual mafia game

Thanks.  That was my assumption, and as such I wasn't using the flavor to scumhunt.

[raerae]

TA reread:

First post of the game is an awful claimy hider plan and a complete skip of RVS. Scummy & null respectively.

Post 127 says a 1-1 is better than confirming town.  I fully disagree with this.  Obviously it's better to have one less mislynch available and one more voice to trust than to kill one scum.  Especially if you hit scum N1 like UoS did.  I mean, yes, is the downside still pretty damn positive?  Yes!  Of course!  But would it have been better to go into D3 knowing that person A, B, AND C are town?  Super yes!  *Gets down off soap box*  Now, does this speak to alignment?  I think a bit.  A 1-1 trade benefits scum more than town finding town so I feel like this is a bit scummy.

#355 - original vote on ash, seems like a lot for D1, especially considering TA recently admitted to it being a "gambit" recently.  1) I don't know that I've heard town reference their reaction fishing as a "gambit", and 2) the case itself just feels inflated and stretched

#358, 384, 386, 511, 558, 592 push his ash case again.  If it's just a gambit, why continue to pursue it throughout the day?

This is scum TA distancing himself from both lynches.  He did this in Innovation to try to gain towncred.  Admits both lynches are bad but doesn't do anything to stop either.

I'm feeling uneasy about both of these lynches, and I think they are both likely town members.

I haven't been doing the legwork in this game -- I still think Ashersky is a good lynch target, and the best, but unfortunately he's not really looking viable.

I'd rather lynch Mcmc than either Volt or Chairs, I think. If I were forced to choose between the two, I'd choose neither, but if I was asked again I think I'd begrudgingly choose Chairs.

#812 is more of the "Guys, I don't like this...but OK, fine..."

Vote on Volt (not that close to deadline, for the record).  Town TA doesn't ever vote for somebody he thinks may be town.  Town TA sticks to his guns, doesn't wishy washy around like this, and certainly doesn't vote for somebody he believes to be town over somebody he believes to be scum.

Vote: Voltaire

I hate voting for someone I think is probably town, but I think that Chairs will flip town, and I believe his claim. I'm less confident in my town-read on Voltaire, but I think these are our only two options, and I don't want to see Chairs lynched.

#848 - longest post chiding shraeye for calling similarities between his Innovation and Clue playstyle.  This feels unnecessary and overly long when shraeye wasn't even seriously accusing TA of much, it was more lingering suspicion and he hadn't even bothered to form a case.  Guess who showed up dead the next day?  Oh yeah, shraeye.

First post of D2 - he knew kermit was the one our (on the reread) obvious hider hide behind.  He came out of the gate and called it right away.  Everybody else had to check the math, had to check that UoS agreed to the plan, had to double-check the math and then discuss it before accusing anybody.  TA knew what was going to happen and wanted credit for it.  His check of everything came 1.5 minutes later.

Following the plan, UoS hid behind Nkirbit, right? SOmeone verify this?

And this is the one thing that bothered me most.  Robz asked for the direct quote from UoS stating he was following the plan but all TA did was put the wording in quotes.  He didn't do the work, he didn't look back, he didn't find the quote.

And this doesn't read genuine to me at all.  One more example of wishy washy scum TA.

I will be super frustrated if UoS went the other way and really hid behind Shraeye.

And today has just been one scummy post after another.  His insistence that ash is scum and pure reluctance to look elsewhere is nothing more than scum trying to push a lynch he's been trying to push since D1 so he won't actually have to do any work.  Push a case just enough so people know you're around but don't actually do any scum hunting.

Vote: TwistedArcher

[Twistedarcher]

Going back to my case versus Ash's case:

A large part of my case on Ash was based on interactions with Nkirbit. Looking back, there's a definite connection between Nkirbit and AShersky. Nkirbit chose to not push the Ashersky wagon when it was going, but to redirect elsewhere and to hunt for scum on Ashersky's wagon. This was an attempt to discredit the wagon, and to get it to fall apart, I believe. Regardless, though, we know that Nkirbit chose to not find Ashersky scummy when he had four other people voting for him. Could be an attempt to get town cred, could be an attempt to cover for a partner. I lean the second.

Ashersky's case is mostly built on the fact that I overplayed my hand in creating my case on him. I exaggerated and lied in building the case, he says. In essence, it's an extended, pretty-looking OMGUS. His case doesn't go back on anything that happened D1, but consists entirely of discrediting my case. He says it looks like I made my case N2, and that I've been tunneling him since D1, and purposely killing off pro-Ash townies in order to set up his lynch. His case, though, is basically (his words) "that I've painted myself into a scummy corner".

I don't know how people aren't seeing the case on Ash. There are scummy interactions with Nkirbit. There are! Ash's case on me basically amounts to "TA made a bad case". Yet, Ash should know that bad cases don't come from scum exclusively, it's also very possible for town to make a bad case. However, the fact that I made a bad case has made Ashersky sure that I'm scum.

Raerae, liopoil, those of you who don't see the Ashersky case as having reason, please ask me why and I'll try to prove to why exactly why Ashersky is scum. (whether that happens today or tomorrow)

I think you gave yourself away here.  Look at your first line.  How could a large part of your case be based on nkirbit interactions, when your case against me has been going strong since D1?  You know that I'm not lying here.  None of us knew nkirbit was scum D1 except for his partners.  I think that's where you've messed up.  Your knowledge from D1 you've added into your case retroactively...it isn't knowledge a towny would have.

You are caught.

A large part of my case, posted D3, today, was based on interactions with Nkirbit. It was one of my 3 main points. I didn't know Nkirbit was scum until N2 (well, I was 99% sure D2, since I trusted UoS of all people to follow a theory-based plan).

I added in that knowledge to my case once it became available that Nkirbit was scum. After the Robz flip, I went back to read Nkirbit's interactions. You came out scummiest. I had point 1 (your self-vote gambit) since D1. I formed the third point, your end of days actions, as part of my re-read.

I had a scum read on you D1. This was reinforced after looking at Nkirbit's interactions. I don't get where I am coming off as having too much information, but you're making accusations that don't hold water here.

[Twistedarcher]

Ash, do you have any other case against me other than that I "gave myself away" with my terrible case on you?

I think you have had multiple posts which give away the fact that you have more knowledge than the rest of us.  That's my primary scum hunting tactic in all games.  I look for wording choices, odd constructions, anachronisms, etc. which tell me who might be scum.

In the end, anyone can fake anything when it comes to behavior, opinion, etc.  You can't help having the extra knowledge.  How well you hide it is up to you, but subconsciously, you will let things slip (sometimes on purpose).  Everyone does when they are scum.  It's up to town to find it.

Separately, if you want "traditional" scum stuff, like things you might quote in a case: I think your opening post was rolefishing (the one about maybe planning for the hider) because as scum, you don't want to target the hider.  I think you have been pushing bad cases on townies, such as myself.  I think you've made sure to agree with townies at specific junctures to gain towncred (often with Eevee, a few times with me to soften your mislynch case on me, Chairs).

Do I have scumreads on others?  Sure.  But none so strong as on you.

As for the look on my face if you were to somehow flip town?  Yeah, that would suck.  No more than how badly you'll feel if you are town and get me mislynched.

Which posts? Sure, there's my "scumslip", and then you mentioned just now that I incorporated the Nkirbit stuff in earlier than I did, which just isn't true. But if you're going to state that there's "several posts", you need to actually quote them. Your claim is false.

[Twistedarcher]

The more they talk the more ash looks like town and the more TA looks like scum. This particular game is proving quite difficult.

Do you think this is more because Ash is a better, more convincing writer than me, or that his case is actually good?

His case itself is pretty weak. The only case is that I am pushing a bad case, and possibly that I knew Nkirbit was scum and incorporated that into my Ashersky case before it was public knowledge (which isn't true, but I think that's what Ash is saying, correct me if I'm wrong). Meanwhile, I have an actual case, with interactions, interpretation of Ashersky's actions, etc. All Ashersky has is a rebuttal that my case is "bad", and that I've been tunneling him.

By the way, one point I'd like to address. Ashersky thinks I've been planning this, and tunnelling him. Yes, I agree. I've been focused on Ashersky.

But here's one point he mentioned -- he says that I've purposely been killing off pro-Ashersky townies as scum. Ashersky has mentioned, either in this game or another, that during the day, when town is scum-hunting, scum is PR-hunting. I know he said this, and I can't remember if it was in this game or another, but I'll dig for it. But he's suggesting that scum is killing, NOT to PR hunt, but to make a mislynch of Ashersky easier.

Ashersky's suggesting that I have been tunnelling, building a mislynch case, and directing night kills, just to get this one mislynch. Does this REALLY seem like a more likely outcome to everyone than me simply being town and thinking that I've found scum? What he's accusing me of is terrible scum play, and going all-in to get ONE mislynch. Scum don't win the game with one mislynch, they win it with 3 or 4. I just don't get anyone who thinks I've been going at Ashersky this hard, when if he gets lynched and turns up town, I WILL be the next lynch.

[ashersky]

Back-to-back posts by Voltaire saying "Let me clarify this, in case someone calls me on it", and "People said we should vote? Here, I'll vote!" seems a little too crowd-pleasing to me.

Vote: Voltaire

Interesting to note this post, given the result.  This was the first vote ever on Voltaire, I believe.

[ashersky]

Ashersky's suggesting that I have been tunnelling, building a mislynch case, and directing night kills, just to get this one mislynch. Does this REALLY seem like a more likely outcome to everyone than me simply being town and thinking that I've found scum? What he's accusing me of is terrible scum play, and going all-in to get ONE mislynch. Scum don't win the game with one mislynch, they win it with 3 or 4. I just don't get anyone who thinks I've been going at Ashersky this hard, when if he gets lynched and turns up town, I WILL be the next lynch.

TA, scum has gotten 1 mislynch already, plus a bonus Hider death and 2 NKs.  I'd only be the 2nd mislynch, but still, pretty good shape for you.  You die, then mislynch again you have your 3.  I don't see how this is a good defense.

[ashersky]

Several things Ash has done have struck me as off.

First, there's the fact that he's angry at town for directing what hider does, yet he's doing that more than anyone else. He's directly saying that the hider should hide behind their town reads. This increases the probably for hider doubledeaths more than anything else.

He's saying the risk of hiding behind scum reads is that the hider could die without letting us know who they hid behind. But that's the exact point of the plan! I think finding scum is MUCH better than making an IC, personally. The problem is simply that it's so hard to communicate the scum target if the hider dies.

He's saying that "I think this is a bad idea, and since I love ideas like this but hate this one, you all should stop, now." I don't think it's a bad idea, and given that 2/3 of the town agrees, I think Ash's unwillingness to even consider the plan is anti-town at best, and scummy at worst.

Also weird, is that he's brought up my quote from the beginning of the game multiple times, and finds it scummy, yet doesn't make me a scum read when it's really all I've contributed so far today. It's weird that he's going after people for the plan, yet doesn't find the first person to mention a plan scummy.

Finally, I'm not buying the "make me the lynch, screw it" argument. He KNOWS that that lynch isn't going to fly. He knows it. There's absolutely no way we'd lynch on that basis, as people would probably be policy opposed to it. It's a great way to be the first wagon of the day (first wagon of the day almost never goes through), which then allows you to avoid suspicion later. Scum!Ashersky knows that the lynch just doesn't happen, so it's not a risky move.

Vote: Ashersky

Here's TA's first post of a case on me.  A lot of this is "what scum would do" stuff, which I believe is exactly what scum is both thinking about and looking to place onto their mislynch targets.  It also has statements that are designed to look like strong town feelings by being so very anti-scum, but in fact are the opposite.  These are examples of your scum extra knowledge leaking out.  I've bolded what I think are good examples.

--"Angry at town, telling town what to do."  This is something scum doesn't want to do, he sees me do it, calls it scummy.
--"Finding scum is better than making an IC."  Generally false when you think about situations where we need to find more than one scum, like a game of mafia.  If 1 for 1 trades were so bad for scum, why are fake claims worth it?  This is a statement to look towny when in fact is anti-town.
--"Finds me scummy, but doesn't call me a scum read."  A huge fear for scum is inconsistencies in their reads.  Pointing them out in others is a great way to build crap cases.
--"first wagon never goes through."  That's a huge tell there.  Scum thinks about that in their QT.  Town does not think of that, or mention it.

[ashersky]

Here are back to back TA/Eevee posts that made me suspicious way back on D1.

Finally, I'm not buying the "make me the lynch, screw it" argument. He KNOWS that that lynch isn't going to fly. He knows it. There's absolutely no way we'd lynch on that basis, as people would probably be policy opposed to it. It's a great way to be the first wagon of the day (first wagon of the day almost never goes through), which then allows you to avoid suspicion later. Scum!Ashersky knows that the lynch just doesn't happen, so it's not a risky move.

Vote: Ashersky

I disagree. I mean, ash has done this before, and it has come close to getting him lynched before. He had to think there was a reasonable likelihood of him being lynched on insanity grounds for pursuing this path. What' the upside of all this, if he is scum? I just don't think so. Scum ash is a pretty savvy player. Town ash often finds himself stirring up animosity.

But Scum!Ashersky has the knowledge of knowing that he's been lynched for this before, as town, and so it's less likely he'd be viewed as scum and lynched this time, right?

Finally, I'm not buying the "make me the lynch, screw it" argument. He KNOWS that that lynch isn't going to fly. He knows it. There's absolutely no way we'd lynch on that basis, as people would probably be policy opposed to it. It's a great way to be the first wagon of the day (first wagon of the day almost never goes through), which then allows you to avoid suspicion later. Scum!Ashersky knows that the lynch just doesn't happen, so it's not a risky move.

Vote: Ashersky

I disagree. I mean, ash has done this before, and it has come close to getting him lynched before. He had to think there was a reasonable likelihood of him being lynched on insanity grounds for pursuing this path. What' the upside of all this, if he is scum? I just don't think so. Scum ash is a pretty savvy player. Town ash often finds himself stirring up animosity.

As you said, Ash is a savvy scum player. Do you think it's savvy scum play to only do certain things when you are town?

[Twistedarcher]

Now we come to Raerae's case. I'll respond point by point.

TA reread:

First post of the game is an awful claimy hider plan and a complete skip of RVS. Scummy & null respectively.

This is the first time Raerae has noted a problem with my plan being "awful claimy". She disagreed merely on theory grounds, which she always does and always will do, but this is the first time I've seen such a complaint.

Giving me a scum read for this, when several others alive posted similar plans (Jimmmm came up with another plan, so did Liopoil, Eevee supported the plan, Mcmc supported the plan, and I believeeeee Chairs supported the plan) is odd. You could have made this same accusation of several players, but you made it at me.

I was being genuine in my plan, trying to help town (which it did!), but there's no way for me to prove that to you other than just saying that's what I meant.

Post 127 says a 1-1 is better than confirming town.  I fully disagree with this.  Obviously it's better to have one less mislynch available and one more voice to trust than to kill one scum.  Especially if you hit scum N1 like UoS did.  I mean, yes, is the downside still pretty damn positive?  Yes!  Of course!  But would it have been better to go into D3 knowing that person A, B, AND C are town?  Super yes!  *Gets down off soap box*  Now, does this speak to alignment?  I think a bit.  A 1-1 trade benefits scum more than town finding town so I feel like this is a bit scummy.

Aren't you the same person who says that theory talk is terrible, because it causes people who have disagreements to find each other scummy?

Fact of the matter is, we start with 10 town and 3 scum. Trading 1 for 1 is great, we have townies to spare. But that's theory and hey we disagree, no biggie.

The fact that you have said that theory is bad because it causes disagreements and scum reads which are unrelated to alignment, but you are using a theory difference to find me scummy, is a big contradiction.

#355 - original vote on ash, seems like a lot for D1, especially considering TA recently admitted to it being a "gambit" recently.  1) I don't know that I've heard town reference their reaction fishing as a "gambit", and 2) the case itself just feels inflated and stretched

#358, 384, 386, 511, 558, 592 push his ash case again.  If it's just a gambit, why continue to pursue it throughout the day?

I think it was a gambit by Ashersky to attempt to gain town credit, as I stated several time. I found it incredibly scummy. So did Eevee, why aren't you attacking him for it?

This is scum TA distancing himself from both lynches.  He did this in Innovation to try to gain towncred.  Admits both lynches are bad but doesn't do anything to stop either.

I'm feeling uneasy about both of these lynches, and I think they are both likely town members.

I haven't been doing the legwork in this game -- I still think Ashersky is a good lynch target, and the best, but unfortunately he's not really looking viable.

I'd rather lynch Mcmc than either Volt or Chairs, I think. If I were forced to choose between the two, I'd choose neither, but if I was asked again I think I'd begrudgingly choose Chairs.

#812 is more of the "Guys, I don't like this...but OK, fine..."

Vote on Volt (not that close to deadline, for the record).  Town TA doesn't ever vote for somebody he thinks may be town.  Town TA sticks to his guns, doesn't wishy washy around like this, and certainly doesn't vote for somebody he believes to be town over somebody he believes to be scum.

I had no options. It was Volt or Chairs. I believed Chairs was VT, I was less certain on Volt.

I thought Volt was probably town, but there was more of a chance of him being scum than Chairs.

Once again, Eevee had a similar reaction. So, too, did Ashersky. I find Ashersky scummy for it, even though I did it, because, well, I know I'm town. I would expect Ashersky to find me scummy for it too, if he were town, because, well, he would know he was town. But I don't know how you can find me scummy for this, but not Ashersky, when the things we were saying towards the end of the day were pretty similar.

#848 - longest post chiding shraeye for calling similarities between his Innovation and Clue playstyle.  This feels unnecessary and overly long when shraeye wasn't even seriously accusing TA of much, it was more lingering suspicion and he hadn't even bothered to form a case.  Guess who showed up dead the next day?  Oh yeah, shraeye.

I believed that Shraeye was picking and choosing when to apply similarites and differences. I still believe that he was doing that.

First post of D2 - he knew kermit was the one our (on the reread) obvious hider hide behind.  He came out of the gate and called it right away.  Everybody else had to check the math, had to check that UoS agreed to the plan, had to double-check the math and then discuss it before accusing anybody.  TA knew what was going to happen and wanted credit for it.  His check of everything came 1.5 minutes later.

This will get a post of its own, after this one, because I want it to get a post. This is the most blatant example of you searching for reasons to find me scummy.

Following the plan, UoS hid behind Nkirbit, right? SOmeone verify this?

And this is the one thing that bothered me most.  Robz asked for the direct quote from UoS stating he was following the plan but all TA did was put the wording in quotes.  He didn't do the work, he didn't look back, he didn't find the quote.

UoS bolded the plan. I said that. What more is there to go find?

And this doesn't read genuine to me at all.  One more example of wishy washy scum TA.

I will be super frustrated if UoS went the other way and really hid behind Shraeye.

I would have been super frustrated. Frustration is scummy now?

And today has just been one scummy post after another.  His insistence that ash is scum and pure reluctance to look elsewhere is nothing more than scum trying to push a lynch he's been trying to push since D1 so he won't actually have to do any work.  Push a case just enough so people know you're around but don't actually do any scum hunting.

Vote: TwistedArcher

You can accuse me of many things, but you can't possibly be accusing me of not scumhunting. I'm the ONLY person to build a case today!

[ashersky]

I believe that's L - 2 on ash. The question we have to ask, I think, is "Would scum ash be this bold?" Whether Town or scum, he knows that loudly disagreeing with the majority and going so far as to dare us to lynch him is going to rub people the wrong way. We've certainly seen this sort of thing before from ash as Town - in Bankers I really wanted to keep going after him because I disagreed with the way he was playing, but in the end I reluctantly concluded that I thought he was Town. So is this a ploy from scum ash wanting us to conclude that he's Town because scum ash wouldn't be so bold, or is this simply Town ash being ash and not really caring if he rubs people the wrong way?

In one sense I think this would be a reasonable lynch regardless. At least if he's Town we can get some reads from him and then move on from this. He's already made it clear that if he's the Hider or the TrackerVig then he'll use those roles poorly, so at least we wouldn't have to worry about that any more.

Anyway, I do think there is a reasonable chance that ash is scum trying to replicate his Town meta, and I think he's the best lynch candidate at the moment.

PPE 6

I disagree. If you think Ashersky flips scum, vote him. If not, don't vote him. We are still early D1, this is our first significant wagon, it's far, far, far too early to vote someone simply because it could be beneficial even if they flip town.

We should not be trying to lynch to gain information -- we should be trying to lynch scum. This quote is really fishy, to me.

This TA response is fishy in a lot of ways.  It sounds a lot like a scum-trying-to-sound-towny post.  It also sounds like a message to a scum partner to vote (if Jimmmmm is scum, which is possible).

[Twistedarcher]

First post of D2 - he knew kermit was the one our (on the reread) obvious hider hide behind.  He came out of the gate and called it right away.  Everybody else had to check the math, had to check that UoS agreed to the plan, had to double-check the math and then discuss it before accusing anybody.  TA knew what was going to happen and wanted credit for it.  His check of everything came 1.5 minutes later.

I want to draw everyone to this point by Raerae. This is the biggest example of her looking for reasons to prove that I'm scummy, rather than her trying to determine my scumminess.

What raerae is accusing me of here is knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit, before the N1 flips were revealed. She's saying that, rather than just immediately checking the math, I KNEW that UoS was the hider, I KNEW his flavor name would cause him to hide behind Nkirbit, and I KNEW he would die. This is impossible for a scum to know! Even if I were scum, it would be impossible for me to know all of this. Yet she's using it as a point to find me scummy.

She has taken a scenario, and accused me of being scummy for it, when it's an impossible scenario. There's no way scum could have known who the hider was hiding behind, even if they were really really awesome and guessed who the hider actually was. No way.

Her accusing me of "knowing what was going to happen" is absurd, and even more so, downright impossible. Yet she's using it to find me scummy!

[Twistedarcher]

Back-to-back posts by Voltaire saying "Let me clarify this, in case someone calls me on it", and "People said we should vote? Here, I'll vote!" seems a little too crowd-pleasing to me.

Vote: Voltaire

Interesting to note this post, given the result.  This was the first vote ever on Voltaire, I believe.

Yeah. Those things were scummy. Do you disagree?

[ashersky]

I will readily admit that this plan might actually work and catch scum.  I'm not even arguing that it might not be effective.  I will laugh at poor scum for that, though, as that would be quite a fail (or the Hider is awesome).

Just because it could work doesn't mean it's good.

Just like even though a number of folks agree with it doesn't make it a good plan (as TA would have you believe).  A lot of people believed in a lot of things that turned out to be terrible, terrible ideas.

As you can tell, I'm re-reading TA.  I feel like this is what scum wants though, whether I'm right or wrong about him.  If I'm right, he wants to be the trade off lynch anyway.  If I'm wrong, we're not looking at scum at all.

Anyway, here's a post from ME, on D1, admitting the plan might actually work regardless of my unhappiness with it.  I just wanted to remind you all of that.

It'd be great to know why UoS actually chose Nkirbit, though.

[Twistedarcher]

Several things Ash has done have struck me as off.

First, there's the fact that he's angry at town for directing what hider does, yet he's doing that more than anyone else. He's directly saying that the hider should hide behind their town reads. This increases the probably for hider doubledeaths more than anything else.

He's saying the risk of hiding behind scum reads is that the hider could die without letting us know who they hid behind. But that's the exact point of the plan! I think finding scum is MUCH better than making an IC, personally. The problem is simply that it's so hard to communicate the scum target if the hider dies.

He's saying that "I think this is a bad idea, and since I love ideas like this but hate this one, you all should stop, now." I don't think it's a bad idea, and given that 2/3 of the town agrees, I think Ash's unwillingness to even consider the plan is anti-town at best, and scummy at worst.

Also weird, is that he's brought up my quote from the beginning of the game multiple times, and finds it scummy, yet doesn't make me a scum read when it's really all I've contributed so far today. It's weird that he's going after people for the plan, yet doesn't find the first person to mention a plan scummy.

Finally, I'm not buying the "make me the lynch, screw it" argument. He KNOWS that that lynch isn't going to fly. He knows it. There's absolutely no way we'd lynch on that basis, as people would probably be policy opposed to it. It's a great way to be the first wagon of the day (first wagon of the day almost never goes through), which then allows you to avoid suspicion later. Scum!Ashersky knows that the lynch just doesn't happen, so it's not a risky move.

Vote: Ashersky

Here's TA's first post of a case on me.  A lot of this is "what scum would do" stuff, which I believe is exactly what scum is both thinking about and looking to place onto their mislynch targets.  It also has statements that are designed to look like strong town feelings by being so very anti-scum, but in fact are the opposite.  These are examples of your scum extra knowledge leaking out.  I've bolded what I think are good examples.

--"Angry at town, telling town what to do."  This is something scum doesn't want to do, he sees me do it, calls it scummy.
--"Finding scum is better than making an IC."  Generally false when you think about situations where we need to find more than one scum, like a game of mafia.  If 1 for 1 trades were so bad for scum, why are fake claims worth it?  This is a statement to look towny when in fact is anti-town.
--"Finds me scummy, but doesn't call me a scum read."  A huge fear for scum is inconsistencies in their reads.  Pointing them out in others is a great way to build crap cases.
--"first wagon never goes through."  That's a huge tell there.  Scum thinks about that in their QT.  Town does not think of that, or mention it.

So, pointing out scum tells is scummy? I don't get what you're saying here. This might make sense, if each game was played in a vacuum. But they're not. Most of us have played scum before, and know how scum and town think.

I don't get your point here -- scumhunting from the viewpoint of "what scum would do" is not scummy -- it's a useful tool to catch scum!

[Twistedarcher]

I believe that's L - 2 on ash. The question we have to ask, I think, is "Would scum ash be this bold?" Whether Town or scum, he knows that loudly disagreeing with the majority and going so far as to dare us to lynch him is going to rub people the wrong way. We've certainly seen this sort of thing before from ash as Town - in Bankers I really wanted to keep going after him because I disagreed with the way he was playing, but in the end I reluctantly concluded that I thought he was Town. So is this a ploy from scum ash wanting us to conclude that he's Town because scum ash wouldn't be so bold, or is this simply Town ash being ash and not really caring if he rubs people the wrong way?

In one sense I think this would be a reasonable lynch regardless. At least if he's Town we can get some reads from him and then move on from this. He's already made it clear that if he's the Hider or the TrackerVig then he'll use those roles poorly, so at least we wouldn't have to worry about that any more.

Anyway, I do think there is a reasonable chance that ash is scum trying to replicate his Town meta, and I think he's the best lynch candidate at the moment.

PPE 6

I disagree. If you think Ashersky flips scum, vote him. If not, don't vote him. We are still early D1, this is our first significant wagon, it's far, far, far too early to vote someone simply because it could be beneficial even if they flip town.

We should not be trying to lynch to gain information -- we should be trying to lynch scum. This quote is really fishy, to me.

This TA response is fishy in a lot of ways.  It sounds a lot like a scum-trying-to-sound-towny post.  It also sounds like a message to a scum partner to vote (if Jimmmmm is scum, which is possible).

Sure, it's a post scum would make. But guess what? It's also a post town would make, too! The fact that you're calling me scummy for null theory posts is the real scummy thing here. You, like Raerae, are searching for posts to prove that I'm scummy, rather than looking at posts to determine my scumminess.

[ashersky]

First post of D2 - he knew kermit was the one our (on the reread) obvious hider hide behind.  He came out of the gate and called it right away.  Everybody else had to check the math, had to check that UoS agreed to the plan, had to double-check the math and then discuss it before accusing anybody.  TA knew what was going to happen and wanted credit for it.  His check of everything came 1.5 minutes later.

I want to draw everyone to this point by Raerae. This is the biggest example of her looking for reasons to prove that I'm scummy, rather than her trying to determine my scumminess.

What raerae is accusing me of here is knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit, before the N1 flips were revealed. She's saying that, rather than just immediately checking the math, I KNEW that UoS was the hider, I KNEW his flavor name would cause him to hide behind Nkirbit, and I KNEW he would die. This is impossible for a scum to know! Even if I were scum, it would be impossible for me to know all of this. Yet she's using it as a point to find me scummy.

She has taken a scenario, and accused me of being scummy for it, when it's an impossible scenario. There's no way scum could have known who the hider was hiding behind, even if they were really really awesome and guessed who the hider actually was. No way.

Her accusing me of "knowing what was going to happen" is absurd, and even more so, downright impossible. Yet she's using it to find me scummy!

This is a misrepresentation of raerae, TA.  She is not "accusing [you] of knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit."

She's accusing you of knowing that UoS HID behind Nkirbit because UoS was a dead Hider.  You knew that because maybe, during the night, or during D1, after you got a plan agreed to by most everyone, you and your scumbuddies went down the list and figured out who would get outed if each other town player was the Hider.  It's not as much figuring as it sounds like, since you could remove four player names and four flavor names from the equation.

You looked at the flip, saw UoS + flavor name, knew he must have hid behind nkirbit, asserted it right away.  I believe that's what raerae is accusing you of.

[Twistedarcher]

I will readily admit that this plan might actually work and catch scum.  I'm not even arguing that it might not be effective.  I will laugh at poor scum for that, though, as that would be quite a fail (or the Hider is awesome).

Just because it could work doesn't mean it's good.

Just like even though a number of folks agree with it doesn't make it a good plan (as TA would have you believe).  A lot of people believed in a lot of things that turned out to be terrible, terrible ideas.

As you can tell, I'm re-reading TA.  I feel like this is what scum wants though, whether I'm right or wrong about him.  If I'm right, he wants to be the trade off lynch anyway.  If I'm wrong, we're not looking at scum at all.

Anyway, here's a post from ME, on D1, admitting the plan might actually work regardless of my unhappiness with it.  I just wanted to remind you all of that.

It'd be great to know why UoS actually chose Nkirbit, though.

UoS hid behind Nkirbit because of the plan. I'm 100% certain of that.

The hider plan was broken because we had a list of 13 flavor names. We can discuss this post game, but it was absolutely broken, and definitely a good idea. I'd do it again 1000/1000 times.

[ashersky]

Sure, it's a post scum would make. But guess what? It's also a post town would make, too! The fact that you're calling me scummy for null theory posts is the real scummy thing here. You, like Raerae, are searching for posts to prove that I'm scummy, rather than looking at posts to determine my scumminess.

You asked me to build a case.  I'm not going to go build a case that you are town, because I think you are scum.

You aren't quoting things that make me more likely to be town for my benefit, either.

[Twistedarcher]

First post of D2 - he knew kermit was the one our (on the reread) obvious hider hide behind.  He came out of the gate and called it right away.  Everybody else had to check the math, had to check that UoS agreed to the plan, had to double-check the math and then discuss it before accusing anybody.  TA knew what was going to happen and wanted credit for it.  His check of everything came 1.5 minutes later.

I want to draw everyone to this point by Raerae. This is the biggest example of her looking for reasons to prove that I'm scummy, rather than her trying to determine my scumminess.

What raerae is accusing me of here is knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit, before the N1 flips were revealed. She's saying that, rather than just immediately checking the math, I KNEW that UoS was the hider, I KNEW his flavor name would cause him to hide behind Nkirbit, and I KNEW he would die. This is impossible for a scum to know! Even if I were scum, it would be impossible for me to know all of this. Yet she's using it as a point to find me scummy.

She has taken a scenario, and accused me of being scummy for it, when it's an impossible scenario. There's no way scum could have known who the hider was hiding behind, even if they were really really awesome and guessed who the hider actually was. No way.

Her accusing me of "knowing what was going to happen" is absurd, and even more so, downright impossible. Yet she's using it to find me scummy!

This is a misrepresentation of raerae, TA.  She is not "accusing [you] of knowing that UoS would hide behind Nkirbit."

She's accusing you of knowing that UoS HID behind Nkirbit because UoS was a dead Hider.  You knew that because maybe, during the night, or during D1, after you got a plan agreed to by most everyone, you and your scumbuddies went down the list and figured out who would get outed if each other town player was the Hider.  It's not as much figuring as it sounds like, since you could remove four player names and four flavor names from the equation.

You looked at the flip, saw UoS + flavor name, knew he must have hid behind nkirbit, asserted it right away.  I believe that's what raerae is accusing you of.