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[ashersky]

Mmmmm, I see what I missed now.  I was so overwhelmed by you not actually answering ashersky's question in that post, that I didn't pay close attention to what you were answering.  It still looks like you just jumped at an opportunity to beat the "ashersky is scummy" drum one more time.

Thanks for the begrudging townread, sorry I'm not going to reciprocate.

That was a lot of posts just to get to "oh, I just missed it."  No actual reads from the shraeye-volt "quote it!" back and forth, but yeesh.

[ashersky]

I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? 

I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions.  If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia.  The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.

Chairs, welcome to mafia.

/joking

Okay, I can see your frustration there.  It is part of the game.  People are going to call you out on your reads for a number of reasons: maybe they are scum trying to mess with you; maybe you read someone who's town as scummy and they are upset about it; maybe they have an abrasive playstyle.  Just gotta roll with it.

Scum hunting takes many forms.  To me, I think the definition for these games is to seek out "behavior" that you would expect from scum and pointing it out.  So not "reads" so much as "observations."

Like Robz's post on Volt is classic scum hunting in that he laid out a behavior (overjustification) and pointed it out in Volt's play.  If overjustification is a scummy behavior to you, you'll look (hunt) for it, and point it out.

The scumhunting informs your reads, which are opinions that we all give and take into account when deciding who to lynch (but also who to believe, disbelieve) and are reference points later in the game when people have died and we can know if they are town truths or scum lies.

Does that help?

[shraeye]

hmmm, shraeye:

when you were saying "everyone should vote liopoil right now, trust me, it's a good idea!" were you just trying to gauge reactions, or did you genuinely think I am scum? I ask because you don't seem to think this anymore.

What possible reason could I have had?

[shraeye]

4.  I think that's Robz, shraeye, raerae, and myself who all feel like Volt is at least a little bit scummy feeling.  Scum in there?

Yeah, I'd say either we're right, or there is scum in robz/ash/shraeye/raerae, or both.  I'd be flabbergasted if that whole bunch of 5 were all town.

[ashersky]

Well, I really still think Ashersky is scum. He's getting the exact reaction I'd expect him to get from this gambit as scum. Some suspicion, but ultimately there's enough people who either don't want him lynched (teammates) or have seen this before (vets), to say "No, this is town Ashersky".

With all the people saying "This is town Ashersky", he's cleared himself from any suspicion D1, basically. When someone looks at Ashersky, it will be really difficult to get past this gambit and hunt for actually scummy behavior.

He was defending himself the entire time he had his vote on himself! That's not the behavior of someone who actually wants to get lynched because the game is silly. That's the behavior of someone trying to make a point, and trying to get towncred for it.

Literally no one responded to this.

I think you are half correct that, if I was scum, and I did this, this is the resolution I'd want.  I mean, I've sat at L-2 a few times for awhile, and survived.  I don't think it's what scum wants overall though.  Lots of attention, the very real possibility of dying on D1 (we know that scum losing someone on D1 is almost always fatal), it's not great.  Sure, it allows for bussing, but who's going to get free towncred for supporting my lynch if I were scum?

I will say, your final sentence is important.  I was trying to make a point.  I think I did.

It also resulted in some discussion/reactions/behavior that I think will help us catch scum.  It may not have rubbed everyone the right way, but it was useful.

I'll vote: Twistedarcher for now.  This is a "nkirbit posting about liopoil" post, and worth a vote.

[ashersky]

4.  I think that's Robz, shraeye, raerae, and myself who all feel like Volt is at least a little bit scummy feeling.  Scum in there?

Yeah, I'd say either we're right, or there is scum in robz/ash/shraeye/raerae, or both.  I'd be flabbergasted if that whole bunch of 5 were all town.

Agreed.  If Volt is scum, I'd guess at least one (Robz) is bussing.

[Robz888]

4.  I think that's Robz, shraeye, raerae, and myself who all feel like Volt is at least a little bit scummy feeling.  Scum in there?

Yeah, I'd say either we're right, or there is scum in robz/ash/shraeye/raerae, or both.  I'd be flabbergasted if that whole bunch of 5 were all town.

Agreed.  If Volt is scum, I'd guess at least one (Robz) is bussing.

I was like the first to seriously push it, though.

[chairs]

I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? 

I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions.  If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia.  The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.

Chairs, welcome to mafia.

/joking

Okay, I can see your frustration there.  It is part of the game.  People are going to call you out on your reads for a number of reasons: maybe they are scum trying to mess with you; maybe you read someone who's town as scummy and they are upset about it; maybe they have an abrasive playstyle.  Just gotta roll with it.

Scum hunting takes many forms.  To me, I think the definition for these games is to seek out "behavior" that you would expect from scum and pointing it out.  So not "reads" so much as "observations."

Like Robz's post on Volt is classic scum hunting in that he laid out a behavior (overjustification) and pointed it out in Volt's play.  If overjustification is a scummy behavior to you, you'll look (hunt) for it, and point it out.

The scumhunting informs your reads, which are opinions that we all give and take into account when deciding who to lynch (but also who to believe, disbelieve) and are reference points later in the game when people have died and we can know if they are town truths or scum lies.

Does that help?

Sure.  I guess what I mean is that some of the scumreads seem almost like RVS more than a read.  Now, perhaps we're getting into this whole "well if I have this weak scumread, and I see somebody roll with it, I can them assume they might be scum because they're picking up on crap I don't even believe myself" or even above that level of braindickery.  I guess that's just not really my style, as I tend to call it like I see it - which I do think I've done, consistently, this whole game.  I'm just not seeing it clearly this time around, but I'm trying not to be too lurky because if I'm lurking, I'm not providing content for others to respond to, for me to pick up on things with and hopefully get that clear gut reaction that lets me call out Robz as scum with hat-eating confidence instead of just "Well, right now he feels kind of scummy, but not super scummy, and I wouldn't throw in all my chips just yet".

[chairs]

Err, as an addendum...

FWIW, that was not intended to indicate that Robz is or is not Mafia in this game, though my vote is currently with him for the lynch.  It was simply a reference to B2B.

[ashersky]

4.  I think that's Robz, shraeye, raerae, and myself who all feel like Volt is at least a little bit scummy feeling.  Scum in there?

Yeah, I'd say either we're right, or there is scum in robz/ash/shraeye/raerae, or both.  I'd be flabbergasted if that whole bunch of 5 were all town.

Agreed.  If Volt is scum, I'd guess at least one (Robz) is bussing.

I was like the first to seriously push it, though.

You were the first to bring it up.  How many times did you get asked to present the case?  You were giving feel-based hints.  Scum could give a feel-based scum read on a partner with no real backing, and if it goes through, they look awesome for picking up on something.

I'm not saying you are scum, or did that.  But it's possible, and I can see you doing it.

[ashersky]

Sure.  I guess what I mean is that some of the scumreads seem almost like RVS more than a read.  Now, perhaps we're getting into this whole "well if I have this weak scumread, and I see somebody roll with it, I can them assume they might be scum because they're picking up on crap I don't even believe myself" or even above that level of braindickery.  I guess that's just not really my style, as I tend to call it like I see it - which I do think I've done, consistently, this whole game.  I'm just not seeing it clearly this time around, but I'm trying not to be too lurky because if I'm lurking, I'm not providing content for others to respond to, for me to pick up on things with and hopefully get that clear gut reaction that lets me call out Robz as scum with hat-eating confidence instead of just "Well, right now he feels kind of scummy, but not super scummy, and I wouldn't throw in all my chips just yet".

They can seem that way, but on the contrary, I think many D1 reads are based on experience with the players in previous games, gut feels on a word choice or sentence, or just odd behavior.  It's the way things roll.

You shouldn't have hat-eating confidence on D1 in a regular game.  Only scum have info on D1.

[ashersky]

hmmm, shraeye:

when you were saying "everyone should vote liopoil right now, trust me, it's a good idea!" were you just trying to gauge reactions, or did you genuinely think I am scum? I ask because you don't seem to think this anymore.

What possible reason could I have had?

This is an odd exchange.

[ashersky]

Do we have a soft deadline?  I don't recall.

How's Thursday night?

[raerae]

I try to post my honest opinion about why I think people are scum or town, in a "this is how I think" kind of list so I actually attempt to make sense instead of being an incoherent "actilurker" who just sounds sheepish, and that makes me scum? 

I don't understand you people at all. I try to move away from the theory into "real" scumhunting (even though I felt the theory discussion was honestly helpful in my attempts to understand how I felt about various potential scum) and then I'm scum for trying to share my opinions.  If they're bad opinions, tell me why, help me help you lynch mafia.  The theory talk had me excited, but this feels like it's just devolved into name-calling and scumreads that I just don't understand the logic of at all.

I think only voltaire has been saying you're scum because you're "acti-lurking".  Maybe others have too, and i missed it.

But what I remember of chairs is somebody a bit more self-reliant than the "if I'm wrong tell me why, help me help you" line you have here.  I remember you telling Robz that you'd gladly eat your own hat over a scumread before.  I'm slightly suspicious of you for the kind of "relying on others to confirm your efforts" feel that i'm getting here.

That's all fair enough.  I think in part that's because in back to basics I was convinced that Robz was scum.  Here, I'm floating, because ashersky's ploy is so very anti-town to my mind (if he's town) and so ridiculous (if he's scum) that I'm finding it extremely difficult to even really focus on anybody else, particularly given that I'm also fairly stressed IRL (wrecked my car).  I think you'll see "I'll eat my hat" chairs again, but only when I'm sure I'm right - normally I"m very consensus-builder, even if it wasn't something obvious in that game.

This is the sort of reasonable, defusing, mild-mannered explanation I expect scum to deliver.

AGREED! Opened my computer to reread and saw this post first.  This screams, "Yeah, I'm scummy but since I'm admitting it then that means I'm not scum except I am so I'm not lying so I'll get back to my normal town meta in a minute, k?" 

Also, I'm drunk...ish...I've been drinking but can still spell...there should be a different word for that.

[shraeye]

hmmm, shraeye:

when you were saying "everyone should vote liopoil right now, trust me, it's a good idea!" were you just trying to gauge reactions, or did you genuinely think I am scum? I ask because you don't seem to think this anymore.

What possible reason could I have had?

This is an odd exchange.

It sure was.

[ashersky]

Also, I'm drunk...ish...I've been drinking but can still spell...there should be a different word for that.

Buzzed?

[raerae]

Also, I'm drunk...ish...I've been drinking but can still spell...there should be a different word for that.

Buzzed?

Show off.

[chairs]

Do we have a soft deadline?  I don't recall.

How's Thursday night?

Works for me.

[raerae]

I think shraeye's "there is a sentence in your post that doesn't make sense, therefore the post was highly edited, therefore the author is scum" is wrong on multiple levels.

But do you think it's scum!shraeye grasping at straws or town!shraeye being a bit too ambitious?

That is an interesting question. I guess it's better than nothing, painting people in scummy light for less than stellar reasons is suspect behavior, but I won't call shraeye obvscum for it.

People with higher than average chance of being scum in my mind:
ashersky, shraeye, Jimmm

People with lower than average chance of being scum:
Snow, Robz

I want to put Voltaire on the townier category, but can't quite explain it. My earlier question about the liopoil-hunt got dodged, I guess I'm leaning null-townier on him too. Chairs I generally read a bit scummy for the contents of his posts, but his helpful clarifying question got him bit of a pass for this post, I guess.

I'm convinced that I must just always sound like scum 

I understand the argument regarding why Ash -might- be town, but I still think Ash would almost be our best bet for D1 lynch because being that upset might set his tone for the entirety of the game.  Maybe ash doesn't play that way, I'm not sure, but I feel like that's a bad way to start yourself off.

What do you mean 'almost'?  Who would be better?  Or would have been, I realize this post is from a while back.

[raerae]

Chairs reread:

His first seven posts were spent either agreeing with or reiterating/clarifying plans then we have an RVS vote for Robz.  Not a whole lot here, both reads and content-wise which gives me a bit of a shady feel but nothing solid.

Advocates Ash's lynch twice (286 & 291...sorry, don't have the mental capacity to link that shit right now) but 291 is the one that especially rubs me wrong for the bolded part below.  I don't know if it's just me or what but this sort of statement always screams scummy to me.  It suggests a willingness to vote for whoever comes up but doesn't actually offer to do any of the work.  It feels like, 'Hey, I pointed this out but if you guys want to point out something else, I'll probably go with that too." 

But honestly, I just haven't had a whole bunch to say, especially since we wanted to shut down the theory talk (which is the part of mafia that truly excites me, D1).  I could blather indiscriminately about irrelevant things, but I don't really have much to contribute to the hunt per se, except that I think offering yourself up for a lynch is dumb and I think ashersky's worth lynching if a better option doesn't come up.

Continues to push the damn hider plan.  I know this is a personal difference between our play and he doesn't understand/agree that it's terrible for town but...ugh, stop talking about it!!

Reads promised on July 14 - reads delivered July 15 (light argument for Ash's lynch again), details presented in the same format at UoS' highly praised "reads" post.

#352 - Again, let's lynch Ash!

#370 - Finally votes for Ash once his wagon has been sufficiently built up.

This, and maybe it's just because I'm sufficiently irked at his insistence of the Ash lynch and theory talky talk, sounds more annoyed than curious.  Like he knows Ash is town and is annoyed at his scum friends for not hammering?  I'm not putting a lot of stock in this as I'm feeling a bit tunnely at the moment but it's still bothersome enough to point out.

I think it might be interesting to see what has happened as the wagon on you has slowly worked itself down - perhaps scum (assuming you're town) is now kicking themselves for not hammering when opportunity permitted.

#507 & 512 - These sound like a forced overreaction to me.  Like feigning anger at his fake reads been called on the carpet even though they were only lightly questioned.

#513 - (Again) Hey, let's lynch Ash!

I want to reread lio & volt too but feel confident my vote will set on one of those guys today.  In light of that, unvote, until a decision has been made.

[raerae]

Do we have a soft deadline?  I don't recall.

How's Thursday night?

We (speaking for shraeye here) may or may not be around for the deadline.

[chairs]

I think shraeye's "there is a sentence in your post that doesn't make sense, therefore the post was highly edited, therefore the author is scum" is wrong on multiple levels.

But do you think it's scum!shraeye grasping at straws or town!shraeye being a bit too ambitious?

That is an interesting question. I guess it's better than nothing, painting people in scummy light for less than stellar reasons is suspect behavior, but I won't call shraeye obvscum for it.

People with higher than average chance of being scum in my mind:
ashersky, shraeye, Jimmm

People with lower than average chance of being scum:
Snow, Robz

I want to put Voltaire on the townier category, but can't quite explain it. My earlier question about the liopoil-hunt got dodged, I guess I'm leaning null-townier on him too. Chairs I generally read a bit scummy for the contents of his posts, but his helpful clarifying question got him bit of a pass for this post, I guess.

I'm convinced that I must just always sound like scum 

I understand the argument regarding why Ash -might- be town, but I still think Ash would almost be our best bet for D1 lynch because being that upset might set his tone for the entirety of the game.  Maybe ash doesn't play that way, I'm not sure, but I feel like that's a bad way to start yourself off.

What do you mean 'almost'?  Who would be better?  Or would have been, I realize this post is from a while back.

Well, mafia would be better.  As I stated (later on, I think), I can see this being scum!ash or town!ash and I opted to give it a null read even though it'd be scummy if some of my friends were to do it (albeit we've not played mafia in forever, opting instead for BSG and other similar mafiaesque-with-a-board-game options).

As far as who would be better, I thought that I'd kind of explained that, overall, "I really have no idea who's mafia this game" is currently the quandary I find myself in, as someone who in person prides themselves on being able to read people.  The removal of the non-verbal cues is... awfully tricky.  TBH it's what made me sign up in the first place to f.ds, I was lurking with no account and noticed people played Mafia, and I figured Dominion players would be just the kind of tricksy hobbitses that could help me step up my own game.  That's why, particularly in this game where I've got no solid read, I've been content/excited to discuss theory and plan concepts and am more trying to understand the rest of you - even if D1 it doesn't help me catch scum, if I can get a better grasp on why people think X, Y, or Z, and why shraeye will say X is scummy and you'll say it's towny (just as an example) it will help me form my own opinions, review them against what I know of everyone else's opinions, and decide why we agree/disagree.

For example, the long discussion of why this could be town!ash is basically the only reason that I've done anything beyond reiterating a desire to lynch him - if it IS town!ash, I definitely don't want to - but if it's scum!ash, we definitely do.  The fact that there are players who know him better on both sides of the fence is actually a great boon, as if I can understand the reasoning for each side, from each player, maybe I can figure out what's "wrong" about that reaction.  I know, I know, I'm still way down in the basics of scumhunting, but this is why I've been trying to ask questions and am semi-content to sheep a little if it means drawing out a few more answers as to why I should/shouldn't follow that particular shepherd.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Unvote.

Ash's play really seems to have changed in the last 24 hours or whatever, enough that I'd no longer be comfortable voting for him on Day 1.  I'd put him about at null at this point.  I'm happy to see you contributing more, Ash, and for what it's worth, I'm sorry I let it get heated there for a bit.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Like Robz's post on Volt is classic scum hunting in that he laid out a behavior (overjustification) and pointed it out in Volt's play.  If overjustification is a scummy behavior to you, you'll look (hunt) for it, and point it out.

To be fair, Robz pointed out TA's pointing out of Volt's overjustification.  Robz sheeped TA. Mcmcsalot sheeped Robz.  Given the real life stuff, I don't particularly find it scummy, but I think we should keep in mind that this was something TA pointed out and the other two agreed with later.

[UmbrageOfSnow]

Well, I really still think Ashersky is scum. He's getting the exact reaction I'd expect him to get from this gambit as scum. Some suspicion, but ultimately there's enough people who either don't want him lynched (teammates) or have seen this before (vets), to say "No, this is town Ashersky".

With all the people saying "This is town Ashersky", he's cleared himself from any suspicion D1, basically. When someone looks at Ashersky, it will be really difficult to get past this gambit and hunt for actually scummy behavior.

He was defending himself the entire time he had his vote on himself! That's not the behavior of someone who actually wants to get lynched because the game is silly. That's the behavior of someone trying to make a point, and trying to get towncred for it.

Literally no one responded to this.

I think you are half correct that, if I was scum, and I did this, this is the resolution I'd want.

I agree with TwistedArcher, more or less.  I think, at this point, your play has shifted in a more towny direction and although you still might be scum, my certainty has waned enough that I'm not going to vote you.  But at the time TA posted this, I 100% agreed with him and I still agree with his logic.

I'm not really clear on why this earns a vote from you?