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[Jimmmmm]

FYI I'm at work now, so I can kind of keep up, but can't really contribute. I'll be home in ~6 hours.

[liopoil]

Jimmmmm first. I'm not totally done yet. Just through the first two days, but those are the biggest ones by far.

This may be true in general but I just want to emphasize this now: do not lynch me without giving me a chance to claim. If at any point in the game you want to put me on even L - 1, instead, announce your intent to do so and at my next availability I will claim. I will be pissed if you lynch me while I'm away.

his second post of the game. If Jimmmmm isn't beloved then he was planning that from the very beginning, for some odd reason.

Also, FWIW, the "Don't put me on L - 1" thing was just a safety net. Just don't lynch me before I've claimed.

Sort of denies being hated. Further evidence he knows exactly what he is going to claim. I really think he has to be beloved.

I also agree with Robz that it seems a bit strange that you wouldn't remember what the wording was. For me, at least, I saw "Station-Aligned", and it took me a moment to realise that couldn't mean anything other than the equivalent to Town. I even checked the OP to see if it was there, and there were enough "station"s to make it obvious that Station meant Town. If the PM said "You're Town (which btw we're calling Station-Aligned)" then you could just see the Town and move on, but because Town wasn't mentioned, you had to see Station-Aligned and interpret that as Town, which I feel makes it harder to forget at least the Station part.

Two ways to read this. Town sympathizing with eevee, or scum trying very hard to get towncred by making up a whole story.

Vote for me if you think I'm scum, and we'll go from there. I actually don't think it's good for Town for us to discuss this (that is, my request not to lynch me before giving me a chance to claim) any further, and I was hoping not to have to claim until at least day 2 or 3.

Pro-town. If he is scum-beloved then I think Jimmmmm WANTS to claim, because it make him less likely to be lynched. Does it make him more likely to be NKed?

but could be worse - I could have had time to answer and clear myself before Joth stepped in

Fwiw, even if I got here before Joth, I wouldnt have answered because it would have felt like a very unfair way to gain a lot of town cred.

These statements seem to be a contradiction.

The beginning of the whole contradiction case thing. It's a nice catch, while incorrect. Not sure if it's scummy or not.

His caution against lynching him when he didn't have a single vote on him rad extremely scummy to me.

If/when the time came, I just wanted something to refer back to so that my claim wouldn't look like it came out of left field.

The interesting thing here is that he is responding to GLOOBLE, who, if Jimmmmm is scum, is his teammate. He actually has a lot of interactions with glooble and munch D1, which Yuma highlighted earlier. They seem to be casting quite a bit of suspicion on each other for D1. D1 there was 15 people, it was chaotic. Bussing seems like a bad idea, because nobody is going to notice anything when there are 15 people.

You know what I'm happy to give Galz a pass for today, for a couple of reasons:
I totally get that he's overloaded.
If he's Town, we want him alive.
If he's scum, word on the street is he's easy to catch out, so hopefully we should be able to do that on a later day.

Of course, his analysis is still appreciated.

If jimmmmm is scum he NKed galz N1. does this post fit?

I just thought of something. What if eevee vigged galzria?? he had a scumread on him the whole way. I think it's possible.

Re-read Glooble as promised. There's really not much there. Does anyone have any thoughts other than LALL and "This could be scum Glooble (but it could also be Town Glooble)"? The one thing that stood out to me was this:

I'm endeavoring not to post completely contentlessly. If I have an observation I think is helpful to the town. If I don't, then I'm just making noise. In other words, if possible I'd like to actually help fond scum, but barring that ill settle for not making a lot of distracting noise.

I think if he's Town, then this is going about things the wrong way. Instead of "I don't have many good thoughts, so I'll help Town by staying quiet," it should be "I'm going to come up with as many good, helpful thoughts as I can and post those."

On the other hand, if he's scum, this seems like it could be a way to excuse his lurking.

For now, I'm happy to Vote: Glooble to try to get some helpful thoughts out of him.

Again, seems a bit harsh for D1, when there as actually a fair chance of us lynching glooble.

Holy crap. Cuzz is offline. He was in this thread, and now he's gone.

Announcing intent to hammer in ~10 mins if Cuzz hasn't posted by then.

10 minutes later cuzz hadn't posted and Jimmmmm never hammered. Mcmc did something similar and he was scum.

One more note: everyone in this game has exactly one role, except for Jimmmmm. He claimed last, so he knew this. If he is scum, there is no way he has two roles. This is because he would be maquis. Maquis would have three members, as opposed to only two on the MU. Joth would not give someone on the team with more members an additional role to balance the game. Therefore he has only one role, and it seems more than likely that this role is beloved. If he is beloved he isn't a roleblocker, and so Yuma must be scum. They can't both be scum, therefore Jimmm is town.

There are a lot of assumptions in the above note, but it seems strong.  Many of the posts I quoted read towny to me too. So I have a townread on Jimmmmm.

[liopoil]

That last thing is actually really strong. only way Jimmmmm is scum is if joth thought the three-man team was STILL underpowered or if he somehow isn't beloved.

[Robz888]

I don't think it would be so strange for him to make up being beloved. I don't much stalk in breadcrumbing but maybe that's just me

[yuma]

I don't think it would be so strange for him to make up being beloved. I don't much stalk in breadcrumbing but maybe that's just me

agreed. Anytime I have been scum I have prepared from Night0 a fake claim--if I was in a game where it was necessary, which has been most of them--and have often set up those fakeclaims with minor breadcrumbs. Although this wasn't a minor breadcrumb... it was a pretty blatant one.

And Beloved Princess is a pretty great fake claim to make as scum. It basically ensures that the BP is pretty unlikely to be lynched, but... scum is also unlikely to want to NK the BP because if the BP does happen to be lynched a day is skipped...

[yuma]

And I guess there always is the possibility that Jimmm actually is Hated... which is a much more scummy role than say BP. I was hated once in a game (as town) and was partially lynched for it because everyone considered it to be a "scummy role." Joth and Robz were both in that game, the first Ozle game.

And if so, joth adding a JK onto it would make more sense as Marquis with a hated player could use a power-up comparatively to the other scum team and town.

Again though, this is just speculation.

[Jimmmmm]

And I guess there always is the possibility that Jimmm actually is Hated... which is a much more scummy role than say BP.

I'm happy for you and Robz to test that.

[Robz888]

It can't hurt.

Vote: Jimm

[Jimmmmm]

If he is scum-beloved then I think Jimmmmm WANTS to claim, because it make him less likely to be lynched. Does it make him more likely to be NKed?

I had a while to think about it before the game. I came to the conclusion that claiming would make me a likely target for any Town Vigs we had, and an unlikely target for scum. So I did my best to truthfully make myself more of a target for scum. Obviously it didn't work, but you can see that the intent was there.

This was interesting:

Jimmmmm makes some very compelling points against eevee. A direct contradiction is always worth pursuing. However, I'm not getting a town vibe from jimmmmm at all. His caution against lynching him when he didn't have a single vote on him rad extremely scummy to me. If he is a town power role, he just help up a huge neon sign saying NIGHTKILL ME, and he seems too smart for thAt. Since I'm highly suspicious of jmmmmm, I'm less inclined to trust his arguments re: eevee. 

Oh yeah they sent me home early from work. I'm on the bus now posting from my phone.

Here's a message I sent to joth after I read that:

Again, just so I have someone to tell:

@Glooble: "If he is a town power role, he just help up a huge neon sign saying NIGHTKILL ME, and he seems too smart for thAt."
That's exactly what I was trying to do, and probably the main reason I didn't just fullclaim.

Please let me know if I'm annoying you with my messages.

And Beloved Princess is a pretty great fake claim to make as scum. It basically ensures that the BP is pretty unlikely to be lynched, but... scum is also unlikely to want to NK the BP because if the BP does happen to be lynched a day is skipped...

I completely understand this, and have from the start. I didn't WANT to die, but I thought it would be good if I drew a scum kill before I had to claim. Any Townie with the slightest scum read on me was going to be disturbed by a BP claim, since yeah it makes me pretty close to unlynchable in earlier days, and therefore takes that power away from Town.

[Galzria]

As I do not have access to Joth's PM box, I cannot confirm nor deny the validity of the "PM" posted by Jimmm. However, it is generally accepted that posting PM's with timestamps attached is against the rules. I am not privy to the setup, so I cannot comment on the nature of the "PM" itself.

However, real or fabricated, in the future please do not provide quotes to or from the mod with timestamps attached.

[jotheonah]

What Galz said. But obviously I confirm or deny NOTHING! I think quoting a PM too the mod is a grayer area than from, but I'd be just as happy we don't have any more of that. If you want to quote such a thing, remove the time stamp. No quoting mod-supplied info at all (real or fabricated).


Admiral Ross's official report to Starfleet is to consider Deep Space Nine lost and compromised. Starfleet sends the Enterprise to investigate, rescue any surviving Starfleet personnel, and destroy the wormhole. They're on their way.

Vote Count 6.1

Jimmmmm (1): Robz888
Not Voting (3): yuma, liopoil, Jimmmmm
With 4 alive it takes 3 to lynch.

[Jimmmmm]

Oh. I never knew that. I thought it was okay because it would be easy to come up with if I was scum and a bit creative. Sorry!

[Jimmmmm]

Okay, here's why I can't be scum:

Assume that there is exactly one scum left (the alternative is just terrifying), and that is me.
Obviously that makes me Maquis.
Now we know that scum can both kill and take another night action in the same night, since Robz is Town and therefore telling the truth that mcmc took no night action Night 1, and therefore Galz both Rolecopped and killed, since there is no other MU.
Now go back to Night 4. Living Townies are ash, yuma, theorel, Robz and liopoil, with mcmc MU and me Maquis. yuma has declared that he will LR, and was telling the truth since he is Town. Obviously I Roleblocked/Jailkept him, but for some reason I neglected/failed to kill ash. Now I can't have decided not to. That would make me the stupidest player to have ever graced these forums. theorel has already declared me innocent from his point of view, and you can almost guarantee that ash will investigate either liopoil or me, to either catch scum or create an IC. Both are terrible options for me - if he investigates me I now have no chance of winning, and if he investigates lio then what looks like an easy mislynch becomes impossible. So I really really want ash to either die or be unable to investigate. But for some reason I both RB/JK yuma and so allow ash to investigate AND I leave him alive. If you think I'm that stupid, then quite frankly I'm offended that you think I lack the mental capacity to make bleedingly obvious decisions in this game. The only other possibility is that ash was Doctored. Tell me, by whom?

So it should be abundantly clear that I can't be the only scum. Maybe if there was another MU alive as well you could argue that it's impossible for scum to kill and action in the same night, and maybe I decided to RB/JK yuma in lieu of killing ash. But it's still an utterly stupid thing to do, given how likely it was that ash would investigate me (seems to be 50%).

So unless I'm missing something major, I'm basically an IC. So unless someone can come up with some way that I wouldn't 100% know that killing ash Night 4 would be the best course of action for scum me by a country mile, or was somehow prevented from doing it, there is no way a Townie should want to lynch me. Unless liopoil is a Godfather (which I'm not actually entertaining), one of Robz and yuma IS scum, and given they didn't kill ash Night 4, it's actually looking like they might be MU, despite the balance issues.

[yuma]

Jimmmm... the problem with that argument, well it isn't really a problem because I agree with it, is that it also applies to Robz and me if either of us are scum and marquis. Why would either of us leave ash alive night4 if we are scum? It is basically the same argument for you that is is for me and the same argument for Robz.

I think I am at the point where the only place to go is to vote for Robz. I was on him, turned myself around with arguments, but am now back where I started.... He is the only option if MU and still has a decent chance of being Marquis. I think I am just resigned to not fully understanding what happened at night because we don't have enough information to put it together. Again, this is why I don't like mass claims unless absolutely necessary. It gave scum enough information to take advantage of night kills and leave town in the dark.

vote: Robz I think I would be hard pressed to change my vote at this point.

[liopoil]

Vote: Jimmmmm
Unvote

to test Jimmmmm being hated, like Jimmmmm suggested. If he's hated he's scum, so there's no risk in this. If I have to leave the vote on Jimmmmm for a whole post then I would like Yuma to do it. If I do it Yuma could potentially quickhammer.

[liopoil]

What's a godfather?

[liopoil]

Okay, here's why I can't be scum:

Assume that there is exactly one scum left (the alternative is just terrifying), and that is me.
Obviously that makes me Maquis.
Now we know that scum can both kill and take another night action in the same night, since Robz is Town and therefore telling the truth that mcmc took no night action Night 1, and therefore Galz both Rolecopped and killed, since there is no other MU.
Now go back to Night 4. Living Townies are ash, yuma, theorel, Robz and liopoil, with mcmc MU and me Maquis. yuma has declared that he will LR, and was telling the truth since he is Town. Obviously I Roleblocked/Jailkept him, but for some reason I neglected/failed to kill ash. Now I can't have decided not to. That would make me the stupidest player to have ever graced these forums. theorel has already declared me innocent from his point of view, and you can almost guarantee that ash will investigate either liopoil or me, to either catch scum or create an IC. Both are terrible options for me - if he investigates me I now have no chance of winning, and if he investigates lio then what looks like an easy mislynch becomes impossible. So I really really want ash to either die or be unable to investigate. But for some reason I both RB/JK yuma and so allow ash to investigate AND I leave him alive. If you think I'm that stupid, then quite frankly I'm offended that you think I lack the mental capacity to make bleedingly obvious decisions in this game. The only other possibility is that ash was Doctored. Tell me, by whom?

So it should be abundantly clear that I can't be the only scum. Maybe if there was another MU alive as well you could argue that it's impossible for scum to kill and action in the same night, and maybe I decided to RB/JK yuma in lieu of killing ash. But it's still an utterly stupid thing to do, given how likely it was that ash would investigate me (seems to be 50%).

So unless I'm missing something major, I'm basically an IC. So unless someone can come up with some way that I wouldn't 100% know that killing ash Night 4 would be the best course of action for scum me by a country mile, or was somehow prevented from doing it, there is no way a Townie should want to lynch me. Unless liopoil is a Godfather (which I'm not actually entertaining), one of Robz and yuma IS scum, and given they didn't kill ash Night 4, it's actually looking like they might be MU, despite the balance issues.

I don't think we know for sure that scum can kill and use their power. Also, we knew pretty much that ash was investigating me, so you wouldn't  be at risk, but at least you could make it go from me being cleared, to being under even more suspicion than I already was because ash died.

[liopoil]

that's still a very good point. that combined with you would have had to have planned the BP thing from the beginning AND made up the doctor thing for whatever reason, and your interactions with glooble, munch, and galz don't quite fit, makes me not wanting to lynch Jimmmmm, especially because there are very good cases on both Yuma and robz. This is why I was inclined to assume jimmmmm is town.

[liopoil]

I don't think we should worry about there still being two scum left. Not only is it incredibly imbalanced against town with six scum, but it would mean that there are still two teams. I'm a bit incredulous that there was only one kill nights 4 and 5 in this case. Also, if there are two scum then lynching scum makes us LOSE. So let's assume there is only one scum.

we can also assume that all liars are scum. We have been assuming this with the Yuma LR thing, and I think this is correct. In this case I see no reason for town to lie. We actually know someone I lying and that person is scum, because either Yuma is scum (and lied about LR-ing), or someone fakeclaimed.

[Robz888]

If there are two scum left, the town already lost, so we can ignore that possibility.

Actually that's not true. If there are two scum left, we should No Lynch, and hope they shoot each other.

[liopoil]

no, we should either lynch Jimmmmm or me if there are two scum. We would want the scum to know who each other are.

[liopoil]

actually, we should lynch jimmmmm for sure if there are two scum. but there aren't!

[liopoil]

Okay, re-read on Jimmmmm done. Even though it seems like he's town, I'm still going to go through the rest of the interesting posts.

I get the case on Glooble, and I think it has merit, especially considering we've been lynching more vocal players, and they end up being Town. Glooble has played a fairly "safe" game, although has started contributing more reads. I guess I would put Glooble down as slightly scummy for now, and keep my eye on him.

this one actually fits with him being maquis.

I re-read Glooble, and as much as I wanted him to be scummy so that I could feel good about supporting the lynch of someone who's not me, I just didn't. His lurking seems like genuine busyness (although I could be more sympathetic than most to that given how little time I've seemed to have to play Mafia lately), and when he has been posting, he just read like a Townie who wants to contribute but is a little lost at times from being a bit behind. And unless there's something I missed, I haven't found any of the arguments on him terribly convincing either. So while I'd obviously prefer his lynch than mine, he doesn't look like a great candidate to me.
But we obviously need to decide on someone before deadline, preferably before a soft deadline. So I don't know. I think I should take a closer look at yuma and Munch.

This one fits too. although, he mentions munch at the end...

Okay, I re-read lio for an alternative to Glooble. While he hasn't said anything in particular to make me think he's scum, he seems to have played a very safe game, not putting himself out there terribly much. Seeing as though the loud talkers all seem to be flipping Town, it seems likely that there is scum in this game who is trying not to be controversial. So while there's no one in particular who I think has a very high chance of being scum, I will Vote: liopoil since I think he has more chance of flipping scum than Glooble.
Of course, I'd rather lynch Glooble than no one, so if they're our only choices I'd be willing to hammer.

and this one. Interesting. I mean, I'm town but my interactions fit with glooble/munch too.

I think I see the lio/Glooble argument. When I have time I'll have to go back and have another look. However I'm not sure I like the assumption that one of me and lio must be scum. From my point of view, that's pretty close to betting the game on lio being scum.

I think no one else should claim until theo gets back to lead it.

Sorry for the delay, just got home from work. I logged on a couple of times to see what was happening, but didn't get time to post.

I am a Beloved Princess.

checks PM

I am Vadek Bareil Antos, so I guess that makes me a Beloved Alien Man-Princess. That means that if I am mislynched, the Bajorans on the Station, whoever they are, will spend the next day mourning for me, which will shut down the Station and skip a Day. For some reason those bastards don't care if I'm killed during the night.

I realise this could be seen as an aggressive scum claim - "I dare you to lynch me!" - and for most of the time between getting my PM and starting day 1 I was planning to claim almost immediately so it didn't appear to be a desperate attempt to save myself. But I realised that would make me a target for Vigs and not a target for scum, so I said what I said to try to reverse that and maybe draw a scum kill. I guess they're too smart for me though, because here I am.

PPE: ^I went to post this at about 4pm but then discovered my internet was no longer working, then a friend came over to play Dominion, then I went out and I'm finally home and it's past midnight. So again, sorry for the delay.

Also, I a tidbit of information that could be useful: during day 1, jo was worried that the game was unbalanced against Town. Because of this, I also acquired X-shot Doctor.

If Jimmmmm had any shots left I think he wouldn't have just added it on as an afterthought. When Jimmmmm softclaimed it D1 for all he knew there might be a real BP (if he was going to fakeclaim). For some reason I'm just feel like his claim is legit. If he is BP then he is town.

He has a bunch of analysis of a glooble-munch-liopoil team. He doesn't actually really support it, which would make sense as maquis because he knew I would flip town. Nothing he says really points me in either direction in terms of him being partners with them though.

[Jimmmmm]

Jimmmm... the problem with that argument, well it isn't really a problem because I agree with it, is that it also applies to Robz and me if either of us are scum and marquis. Why would either of us leave ash alive night4 if we are scum?

I agree that seems strange, which is why I'm now leaning towards one of you being MU. But I think it's obvious that ash had a much greater chance of investigating me than either of you since worst case he gets an IC. If I'm Maquis then I did the very very worst thing for my team, and there's no way I'd be dumb enough to do it. If you or Robz are Maquis then I have no idea what happened, but it wouldn't have been quite so potentially suicidal.

[Jimmmmm]

What's a godfather?

Scum who gives the same results to Cops that Townies do. I just don't see it as being part of this setup.

I don't think we know for sure that scum can kill and use their power. Also, we knew pretty much that ash was investigating me, so you wouldn't  be at risk, but at least you could make it go from me being cleared, to being under even more suspicion than I already was because ash died.

If the entire MU team is Galz and mcmc and Robz telling the truth about mcmc, then we know for sure that Galz both Rolecopped and killed on Night 1.