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[ashersky]

1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.

why are these the only 3 categories? Right now I am not voting Cuzz because 1. I am not 100% sold on the case on him. 2. I am not 100% sure about how I feel about his reaction. 3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so... 4. Cuzz hasn't claimed. So pick one of your three numbers and see which one fits all of the above the best...

So on a more serious note, I think you fall in the "not willing to hammer until others weigh in" camp.  That's a fair statement, right?

[ashersky]

Also, sorry shraeye, page 40.

[yuma]

1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.

why are these the only 3 categories? Right now I am not voting Cuzz because 1. I am not 100% sold on the case on him. 2. I am not 100% sure about how I feel about his reaction. 3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so... 4. Cuzz hasn't claimed. So pick one of your three numbers and see which one fits all of the above the best...

So on a more serious note, I think you fall in the "not willing to hammer until others weigh in" camp.  That's a fair statement, right?

no! see points 1 and 2! and 4! I haven't come to a conclusion about Cuzz. We haven't gone into a should cuzz claim yet... and yes I would like to hear from the other players, but really I think that is the least important of the 4 reasons I voiced above.

[ashersky]

1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.

why are these the only 3 categories? Right now I am not voting Cuzz because 1. I am not 100% sold on the case on him. 2. I am not 100% sure about how I feel about his reaction. 3. some members of town haven't yet had input (robz, mcmc) and I would like them to do so... 4. Cuzz hasn't claimed. So pick one of your three numbers and see which one fits all of the above the best...

So on a more serious note, I think you fall in the "not willing to hammer until others weigh in" camp.  That's a fair statement, right?

no! see points 1 and 2! and 4! I haven't come to a conclusion about Cuzz. We haven't gone into a should cuzz claim yet... and yes I would like to hear from the other players, but really I think that is the least important of the 4 reasons I voiced above.

I suggested to Cuzz that he claim when he asked if he should.  It'd be in his best interest, I think.

I think your points 1 and 2 are the same, in that it's just you not being 100% sure about Cuzz.  That, to me, is townie, because only scum is 100% sure of anything (usually).

Since you are around, how do you feel about letting this day continue on?  Do you feel any of the urgency that some of the others feel?

[Robz888]

I am here now. Just read through everything.

Cuzz should claim. I see no reason for him not to do so, being that he is at L-1, and is certainly the prevailing candidate for lynch at this point.

I myself am extremely conflicted on Cuzz. When theorel picked apart shraeye's case on Cuzz, I found myself agreeing (with theorel) on several of the points. I don't agree about the skimming joke thing, though. I do think that makes Cuzz more likely to be scum.

I'm also conflicted over Cuzz's reaction. On one hand, he's invoked a number of things--disinterest in the game, sick of defending himself, too defensive to have reads--that unfortunately make me think he's town. True frustration that leads a player to become resigned to his fate often indicated an impending town flip, I think. On the other hand, it's Cuzz. And I know for a fact that Cuzz is willing to say anything to not get lynched as scum. I do, I really do, roll my eyes whenever someone says "I'm thinking of self-voting, that's how frustrated I am." I always see that as a desperate scum play, although I'm not sure it actually is desperate scum play, or has been, historically.

I do agree the day should end soon though. My reads are getting muddled. Like, I used to have a huge townread on ashersky. But he's done a bunch of little things that made me go "hmm." Voting for No Lynch, for instance.

I guess I should just do a whole status update.

Dsell is town. Theorel still reads town to me. Glooble is scummy and not super helpful but his defense was really genuine so I actually do think he's town, strangely enough. So, big townread there for now. Jimm is in the townzone for doing so much hard work, and at this stage of the game, I have to take that as indication of a town player. Liopoil hasn't done anything to really raise my suspicions. Munschraerare, I don't know who's town there. A hunch says that one of them isn't--I think that person is "hiding" amidst the other two. I lean towniest on raerae, of them. I really don't know. Uh, I have like no feelings whatsoever toward invisiyuma. Galzria is on the scummier side for being like a complete non-factor this day. Mcmcsalot looks worse as the day goes on, but he wouldn't be my top choice. I think I have to trust my initial read on him for now. Eevee still reads fairly scummy to me. I might be tunneling, but literally every post he makes I mutter "scum" under my breath. Cuzz I've discussed.

[Robz888]

I don't know. I really don't have strong feelings on the likelihood of any one person being scum. I am kind of sold on lynching Cuzz or shraeye, since they have been so vocally against each other, so it's like MAYBE informational if one flips re:the other.

[Eevee]

Robz, in what way would theorel not be like this if he was scum?

[ashersky]

I do agree the day should end soon though. My reads are getting muddled. Like, I used to have a huge townread on ashersky. But he's done a bunch of little things that made me go "hmm." Voting for No Lynch, for instance.

So I guess I should comment on my no lynch vote.  I'd have been very curious to see if anyone took me up on it.  No one did, but plenty of you called me out for it.

I do not agree that no lynch is strictly better for scum.  We have three cops, after all, and possibly doctors, etc.  It's not RMM, but it isn't F11, either.  That said, I don't support no lynch, and didn't at the time I voted for it.  I was trying to make a point that continually derailing lynches was ridiculous, and not helpful.  So unhelpful in fact, that we might as well vote: no lynch.

Robz continues to be a huge town read this game.  We disagree on Eevee, whom I think is most likely town.  At this point, Glooble and Theorel read the towniest of the low posters.  I think yuma is looking very town as well.

Raerae continues to be my biggest scum read.  Cuzz looks bad, whether he's scum or not, for withholding info, for not claiming after asking if he should and being told he should, and for his interactions with just about everyone.  I think Dsell gets WAYYYYYYYYY too much towncred at this point in the game for one post so long ago--but I don't know if that makes him scummy, or all the Dsell lovers out there scummy.

TheMunch and Shraeye are the townier options from the munshraeray triumverate.  Mom salon and liopoil are in the void.

[ashersky]

Robz, in what way would theorel not be like this if he was scum?

I think the problem with scum!Theorel is = scum!ehunt.  As in, impossible to see until he wins the game.

[Robz888]

Robz, in what way would theorel not be like this if he was scum?

I think the problem with scum!Theorel is = scum!ehunt.  As in, impossible to see until he wins the game.

But I actually have experience with scum!theorel. I was his scumpartner in M-VI, and as the mod, I watched him replace-in to a scum slot in M-XI.

I can't fully explain it, but he IS different. His big, substantive, theorizing posts are less substantive and theorizing. I don't know if he's aware of this or not. I think he has less presence as scum. Like, in this game, even though he is one of the less frequent posters, I know what he thinks about stuff. He communicates himself very clearly. He does this less well as scum.

[Jimmmmm]

theorel, get an iso account already. It's too bloody hard to find your posts!

[Jimmmmm]

Okay, I reread Cuzz as promised. And I'm really not sure what to do, because while I agree that we should bring this day to an end soon, I think Cuzz is probably Town. I don't buy the skimming case. It's very common for me to be at work and kind of following a game, and I'm not going to go back and re-read or do any in-depth analysis, but I'll jump in every now and then if I think I have something to add based on the last few posts. If I saw a joke that I wanted to make, I'd make it. So I don't see a problem there.
I see how his reply to mom salon about Dsell can be taken as scum-coaching, but it could just as easily be Town-coaching.
I admit I don't fully understand the "wrong reason" argument. But it was based on the Cuzz-Eevee interaction, in which I didn't get as much of a scum vibe from Eevee as Cuzz did, but I did agree with most of what Cuzz said.
I understand the deflection and follow-up post argument, and I can see the suspicion there, but I think they are close to the first two posts in the game that increase my suspicion of Cuzz.
Changing his opinion on me doesn't mean much, I don't think, and the scumslip thing was meh.

Now having said all that, I'm not too keen on the way he's been dealing with being this close to being lynched. I really don't think now is the time to keep your cards close to your chest. I'm hoping to see a claim and an answer to raerae's and anyone else's questions in the near future. Failing that, I don't think I'd be against lynching him for stalling if nothing else.

[theorel]

So Ashersky moved his vote and Raerae is on board, Cuzz is back at L-2.  I'm gonna ask of the people not recently involved with the cuzz wagon (momsalon, yuma, dsell, jim, theorel, robz) to just state (even if they did say it and I missed it, I'm sorry), which category you fall into:
1) You have similar-to-eevee staunch opposition to the Cuzz lynch
2) You are only not voting for Cuzz because you have a stronger scum read elsewhere
3) You are willing to vote Cuzz.

Meh, I'd say 2 is most accurate.  But there's a bit more to it.
1. I would still like others to weigh in (well, Galzria at least...is he already on this wagon?  But mcmcsalot also would be good to hear from)
2. I don't think this day has gone on too long, though it's getting close.
3. I don't feel like the Cuzz-wagoners have given good reasons (or at least didn't when voting).  That's the primary reason I called out the sheepers for what I following what I viewed as a poor case.  At least a couple have re-weighed in.
4. It's really hard to vote for someone when their case is specifically pushed by my biggest scum-read, even if I do find them mildly scummy.

Basically, if it were Wednesday I would vote for Cuzz and end the day (well, I would announce intention and wait for a claim etc).  But it isn't Wednesday, I don't yet feel overwhelmed by the amount of info from today, and shraeye seems like he might actually be a viable lynch in spite of the fact no one but me has voted for him (even if I'm taking a higher scum-read than necessary through tunneling he'd still be my preferred lynch for today, because it will be difficult for me to move on to others).

Let's try this:
Would everyone be willing to list a like-to-lynch list? Preferrably ordered.  You can include a willing-to-lynch list also.  I think several people have mentioned the set-of-four likely lynches for today.  I don't want to find the "most agreeable lynch" here, I want to find the lynch that the most people actively want to happen.  I think some people's votes have been scattered about, and I think that to an extent people are aligning behind a "loud" person rather than voting for the person they think is scummiest.

Personally, there aren't that many people I actively want to lynch, but there are several I'm willing to lynch.
Like to lynch: shraeye.
Willing to lynch (ordered): Eevee, Cuzz, mcmcsalot, Glooble, munch, raerae

These are all the people who read to me currently as either null or slightly scummy.

Everyone else I'd rather not lynch and would avoid helping to lynch except at deadline.  I have at least a slight town-read on them.

Anyways, once that happens (plus claim presumably), depending on the situation I will either overcome my anti-shraeye bias and hammer Cuzz or we'll have another lynch we want to have happen more.

@Jimmmmm: I see that munch has also attained the enviable status of "Pearl Diver".  I guess that means that there's no good way to search for me in "All" any more.  Fine, I'll put in an iso name.

Also, re: ehunt-theo comparisons: the thought definitely crossed my mind: "ehunt won as scum, great here comes another string of mislynching/misvoting town theorel for being inscrutable"  I just need to avoid lylo though, that's where I lose town the game because they think they can't read me as scum.

[jotheonah]

"Odo to Captain Sisko. It looks like some of the station's population have got it in their heads to have some mob justice down here. They've got a noose hanging down from the upper level of the promenade and they're close to stringing someone up."


Vote Count 1.15

Cuzz (7): Galzria, TheMunch, shraeye, Glooble, liopoil, raerae, ashersky {L-1}
Jimmmmm (1): mcmcsalot
Glooble (1): yuma
raerae (1): Eevee


Not Voting (5): Dsell, Jimmmmm, Cuzz, theorel, Robz888

With 15 alive, it takes 8 to lynch

Deadline is January 18 at 7:10 p.m., forum time.

[Jimmmmm]

@Jimmmmm: I see that munch has also attained the enviable status of "Pearl Diver".  I guess that means that there's no good way to search for me in "All" any more.  Fine, I'll put in an iso name.

Thanks, that'll be really helpful. The PD thing is what I've been doing, and it's SO painful.

[Jimmmmm]

Okay, off the top of my head, I'd like to lynch shraeye or mom salon. I would not like to lynch Dsell, Galz or theorel. Anyone else I would seriously consider any cases/wagons on them. This includes Cuzz, who as I said I'd like more of a response from.

[Galzria]

Stopping in before work, but I absolutely feel this day has gone on too long at this point. As a point of reference, Theorel isn't even sure if I'm on Cuzz. Even though I was the first to pick up the case in him. The post linked below is still nearly 100% accurate for where I stand, and it was 300 posts ago. Basically, I feel like we're just spinning our wheels. There's a whole lot of posting, but nothing is being said. And it's making information analysis a hell of a lot harder for future days

Bwahaha. My co-mods in Noir are telling me to hurry up and lynch someone here so we can go to night.

I hate multiple scum team Mafia. I feel like a have a vast over abundance of town reads because I can't read disingenuous posting from anybody. If I absolutely had to pick someone right now it would be between four players, I think:

mcmcsalot, Jimmm, Shraeye and Cuzz.

Here's the thing. All of them have done things that make me feel "Hey, that's a townie thing to do." - But I need to remember that scum can have genuine reactions and play in this setup as well. Like... I feel as if I need to disregard my town reads in this setup because the things I normally rely on to indicate town play to me are going to be easily and NATURALLY replicated by scum. Does that make sense?

I'm not saying "Hey, let's lynch all my town reads!" Because that's just stupid - but I do think "townie behavior" is a lot more of a null tell. So I think I need to focus less on identifying things that make me feel a player if town, and more on the things that make me feel a player is scum.

And that brings me back to those 4.

Mcmcsalot: I happen to agree with Jimmm here, based solely on my own personal experiences of being a player who's first game was scum, and second was town. I know as well that I'm not alone in struggling to make that particular transition. I recognize mcmc's defense, and I recognize everybody is different. His defense reads townie to me. But this is something that I think would be easy and natural to fake here as well. So my suspicion remains.

Shraeye: I'm interested in hearing his rebuttal to Theorel's case. I'll admit that I've largely had a town read from him - but that in itself is unusual. I don't want this to become a "he's scummy because he's not scummy!", so I'll disregard that line of thought from any consideration. But his posting HAS been less than I'm used to, and his overall presence in the game is certainly much less than I'm used to. This isn't in keeping with either scum!Shraeye nor town!Shraeye meta's, so I think it needs to be noted for just what it is - unusual. And that for me is largely why he's on this list. His play has just felt off. Maybe it's just that he's busy IRL (he's indicated as such elsewhere), so of the four he's probably lowest on my list. Still, I would consider a lynch here.

Jimmm: I know. Lynching the vocal ones is bad. And vocal is town, right? This is the mindset I'm trying to break away from in this setup. I don't WANT to lynch the big talkers specifically, no. But I think it's a lot easier for people to replicate their town posting meta's as scum in this setup. It isn't something that should get undue town points. Yes, Jimmm has taken a lot of positions and made a lot of cases, and yes that's normally a town trait because it shows a genuine desire to scumhunt - but I don't think in this particular setup that makes him any townier. And if I set aside the "He's posting a lot of stuff" and actually look at the content of what he's posting, I'm left with an overall negative vibe.

Cuzz: I still feel that Cuzz opened the game by making a lot of posts about completely irrelevant things. And not like RVS irrelevant. It felt like he wanted to appear to be contributing meaningfully while not saying anything of value. His early vote on Eevee aside, all his posts were about what the opening post said the setup contained - and they were posted in and around the whole Dsell/Eevee thing. He completely avoided that whole debate while it was happening, even though he had his vote on Eevee from RVS, and was around and posting. It wasn't until much later when I called him out over it that he ever went back and addressed the issue - and that was two days later.

I unvoted Cuzz because I thought his defense read townie to me. I also felt the case that Eevee put together wasn't really much of a case. But as others have pointed out, defensiveness is both a town and scum trait. I'll admit I didn't at all like his OMGUS vote on Eevee. He obviously recognized how weak Eevee's case was, but he got all antsy about the vote. I think that as town he would be much more level headed - maybe voting Eevee eventually if Eevee remains stubborn on a bad case - but not OMGUS voting straight back and claiming he suddenly has good reason to do so. So I'm going to put my Vote: Cuzz back on. Of the four listed, he certainly seems the most "off" if I set aside some of the things that would normally make me lean town.

As for the rest, my biggest town reads are on Eevee and Theorel. Eevee because no matter which way I slice it this isn't a scum!Eevee that I would've ever seen. Could he be scum? Yeah, of course. I just really, really don't think so. Theorel I have a not of a weak spot for reading as town. Everything he posts resonates with me. I may not always share his conclusions, but I always feel like his arguments are made from a town perspective. The only time this wasn't the case, was in the dual-scum M-VI, where I identified him as WW very early D2.

Everyone else kind of falls into the middle. I would be happy to entertain a case on them, but nothing has stood out. Robz and I have had almost polar opposite reads all game,  but I'm not sure if I should take from that "Robz is
scum", or "Robz and I really read things differently". Right now I'm leaning towards the latter. It certainly wouldn't be the first time.

[Jimmmmm]

You know what would be a great end to the day? This.

[Eevee]

I don't particularly love any of the lynches (doesn't mean I don't want one to happen already, just that none of these feel slamdunk scum, effects of multiple scum teams I think), but would lynch: munch, shraeye, liopoil, raerae, glooble, mcmc

[mcmcsalot]

Cuzz needs to claim, hes at L-1 theres no reason not to claim. I would be willing to lynch cuzz and that is it. Yes unvote my tunneling of jimm since post 195 has hopefully come to an end.

[Cuzz]

Stopping in before work, but I absolutely feel this day has gone on too long at this point. As a point of reference, Theorel isn't even sure if I'm on Cuzz. Even though I was the first to pick up the case in him. The post linked below is still nearly 100% accurate for where I stand, and it was 300 posts ago. Basically, I feel like we're just spinning our wheels. There's a whole lot of posting, but nothing is being said. And it's making information analysis a hell of a lot harder for future days

Cuzz: I still feel that Cuzz opened the game by making a lot of posts about completely irrelevant things. And not like RVS irrelevant. It felt like he wanted to appear to be contributing meaningfully while not saying anything of value. His early vote on Eevee aside, all his posts were about what the opening post said the setup contained - and they were posted in and around the whole Dsell/Eevee thing. He completely avoided that whole debate while it was happening, even though he had his vote on Eevee from RVS, and was around and posting. It wasn't until much later when I called him out over it that he ever went back and addressed the issue - and that was two days later.

I unvoted Cuzz because I thought his defense read townie to me. I also felt the case that Eevee put together wasn't really much of a case. But as others have pointed out, defensiveness is both a town and scum trait. I'll admit I didn't at all like his OMGUS vote on Eevee. He obviously recognized how weak Eevee's case was, but he got all antsy about the vote. I think that as town he would be much more level headed - maybe voting Eevee eventually if Eevee remains stubborn on a bad case - but not OMGUS voting straight back and claiming he suddenly has good reason to do so. So I'm going to put my Vote: Cuzz back on. Of the four listed, he certainly seems the most "off" if I set aside some of the things that would normally make me lean town.

I will claim soon, but I want to address a few things first. Galz, I realize I forgot to respond to your case on me here, which I did mention that I disagreed with. "Opening the game by making posts about irrelevant things?" Really man, what does that even mean? How do we usually open the game? My first several posts were joke RVS, telling joth to fix the Station-aligned thing because I thought it would break the game (so, no, I did not "avoid that whole debate while it was happening"), and then correcting a number of people's misconceptions about the setup. If it's a week into D1 and stuff like that was all I'd said then it's scummy sure, but you're talking about 2 hours after thread opened when I was phone posting from the bus on the way to a bar on a Friday night.

Do people really agree with this case here, or are you guys just not reading carefully? Like again, I find myself getting annoyed just reading the details of these cases and seeing people go along with them with an "oh, sure sounds good that does seem scummy." You're using the "trying to look like he's contributing meaningfully without saying much" case which isn't a bad case, BUT you can't apply that to me or anyone within the first few hours after the game opened. That's just not fair.

[mcmcsalot]

I can speak for anyone else but I find you scummy not because of one or more particular cases against you, it is because of how you have gone about defending yourself. Delaying your claim bothers me, is it a very helpful pr and you want to not have to claim, or is it because your role makes you look scummy, if it is a pr say that, your ill claim soon is very off to me.

[Cuzz]

Missed the rest of the case there. I've gone on and on about the Eevee thing. Tl;dr: I disagree with the notion that you can see someone vote for the person who voted them recently, and just go "Oh, OMGUS so scummy" without reading the context. It's lazy and you're better than that Galz. My vote on Eevee was 100% a pressure vote. I didn't call it that at the time, because as discussed in other games, that take all the pressure off.

I didn't like the way Eevee backed up his vote on me. I wouldn't have liked it if he had done the same while voting for someone else. One of my problems with this game is that I pay more attention when I see my name, so I was more likely to notice that type of scummy voting behavior when directed at me. I was not getting "antsy" about the vote. I was pushing Eevee to defend his reads. The read in question happened to be a scumread on me, but that's not the key point. Man, even Eevee admitted that his vote on me was scummy at the time.

[Cuzz]

Ok, I've slept on it and cooled off a bit, and guess there isn't much reason not to claim other than that I'm annoyed. The problem though is that my claim will not convince you that I'm town, because I'm the Changeling Cop and we've had plenty of discussion about how cops don't need to be town. But I am town.

[Cuzz]

Also fwiw, regarding my "defensiveness" here's a PM I sent to joth a while ago when I was at like L-5:

Ugh I am so getting lynched today. Everyone is just pissing me off so much and people always interpret pissed off as scummy.

Here's Cuzz's first law of defensiveness: When under pressure, responses that sound like "oh s**t" are scum. Responses that sound like "f**k you" are town.