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[Eevee]

I'm watching this from the beginning with a girl who hasn't seen it before, we got through the first 8 episodes yesterday.

Man was the first season good.

almost as good as the fifth!

It's hard to believe it's the same people making it. I'm interested in seeing exactly when does it fall of a cliff.

No scenes of talking to the skull of a dead Lord Commander season 1, I can tell you that.

[Eevee]

Okay, we are halfway through season 5 now, and I must admit, I was too hard on this season. There are some serious terrible low points, like the whole Dorne plot, but overall it's much more exciting than I remembered. I think it's that I'm further from reading the books now than I was at the time, so it bothers me less than some of the storylines are different (and worse) than in the books.

Or maybe it's just lower expectations resulting in a better experience, either way I'm not seeing the drastic drop in quality in season 5 I was expecting. Is season 6 coming out in March again?

[Witherweaver]

Okay, we are halfway through season 5 now, and I must admit, I was too hard on this season. There are some serious terrible low points, like the whole Dorne plot, but overall it's much more exciting than I remembered. I think it's that I'm further from reading the books now than I was at the time, so it bothers me less than some of the storylines are different (and worse) than in the books.

Or maybe it's just lower expectations resulting in a better experience, either way I'm not seeing the drastic drop in quality in season 5 I was expecting. Is season 6 coming out in March again?

I think it's going to be delayed a little bit; starting in April I believe.

I agree that the Dorne subplot was not done very well for the show.  However, I think the season was still great, and there were some really great parts.  And,  heck, we get to see Bronn some more, and he's awesome. 

[2.71828.....]

So, I know season 6 of Game of Thrones is coming out shortly, and Winds of Winter won't be coming out probably for a good while yet.  Regardless, I have recently just reread the first 5 books, and while I am woefully behind on the show and probably won't catch up anytime soon I am interested in sharing some theories (well, just one theory) that I have about the books.

Before I do any of that, you all should know that I don't spend any time on other forums really except here, and I have no clue what fan-theories and everything exist.

That being said, does anyone else agree with me that Jaime and Cersei are NOT actually Lannisters, but rather Targaryens?  Here are relevant passages from the books:

A Feast of Crows, chapter 33 at the end, Jaime is talking with his Aunt, the Lady Genna discussing Tywin's death and other things:

"Tywin was big even when he was little." She [Lady Genna] gave a sigh. "Who will protect us now?"
Jaime kissed her cheek. "He left a son."
"Aye, he did.  That is what I fear the most, in truth."
That was a queer remark. "Why should you fear?"
"Jaime," she said, tugging on his ear, "sweetling, I have known you since you were a babe at Joanna's breast.  You smile like Gerion and fight like Tyg, and there's some of Kevan in you, else you would not wear that cloak...but Tyrion is Tywin's son, not you.  I said so once to your father's face, and he would not speak to me for half a year.  Men are such thundering great fools.  Even the sort who come along once in a thousand years."

Then we have a passage from A Dance with Dragons, chapter 43, Daenerys is asking Sir Barristan to tell he about her father, and we get this:

"Prince Aerys...as a youth, he was taken with a certain lady of Casterly Rock, a cousin of Tywin Lannister.  When she and Tywin wed, your father drank too much wine at the wedding feast and was heard to say that it was a great pity that the lord's right to the first night had been abolished.  A drunken jape, no more, but Tywin Lannister was not a man to forget such words, or the...the liberties your father took during the bedding." His [Barristan's] face reddened. "I have said too much, Your Grace. I--" 

Then they are cut off by stupid annoying Hizdahr zo Loraq and the story continues.

Now I assume the nether regions of the Internet have probably already grasped onto these and have discussed this theory, but since I don't explore those other places I am interested in what you think.

I mean, why else does [did] Tywin hate Tyrion so much?  Tyrion is actually his only son.  And giving birth to Tyrion killed Joanna.  This also "explains" the incest between Jaime and Cersei.  It also makes sense for how I see GRRM writing the story.  Everyone thinks the Targaryens are all dead, then we have them popping up all over the place (Aegon Targaryen still alive and well and coming back to Westeros at the end of A Dance with Dragons).  Then we have the Starks who are all supposed dead except Sansa, but the only ones who are truly dead are Ned and Robb (unless Lady Stoneheart doesn't count as being alive). 

But I really like the idea that Jaime and Cersei are actually Targaryen, except I don't see how that could be proven in future books as everyone who would give proof that their father was mad King Aerys are all dead.

[yuma]

But I really like the idea that Jaime and Cersei are actually Targaryen, except I don't see how that could be proven in future books as everyone who would give proof that their father was mad King Aerys are all dead.

Further evidence is the "madness" that afflicted Joffrey being very similar to that as described afflicting the Targaryens...

[silverspawn]

That's a really cool theory. The evidence does seem pretty convincing.

[Watno]

There's a popular theory that Tyrion is Aerys' son.

[Awaclus]

There is also a popular theory that it is Moat, although not much evidence has been found so far.

[silverspawn]

There's a popular theory that Tyrion is Aerys' son.

Nah... that would be lame. I don't think that'll happen.

There is also a popular theory that it is Moat, although not much evidence has been found so far.

That might happen!

[eHalcyon]

I read a bunch of the big theories back when I caught up on ASOIAF.... last summer, I think?  I don't remember reading this one.  I'd guess that somebody has made the connection before, but it hadn't caught on when I was looking into all the fan theories.

Your first quote doesn't really work for me, but the second and what yuma added makes sense.  That said, the second quote is also used to support the alternate theory mentioned by Watno, which is very popular.  And what yuma added could just be due to incest in general, not on specific qualities of the Targaryen line.

[yuma]

  And what yuma added could just be due to incest in general, not on specific qualities of the Targaryen line.

My understanding of familial genetics, which I would theorize would also apply to the world of Martin if he does that sort of research, is that generally maladies from the first instance of incest rarely occur. It is only upon multiple cases spanning generations that it occurs. Although I think that research has primarily been directed to invest among cousins, not among siblings...

[eHalcyon]

  And what yuma added could just be due to incest in general, not on specific qualities of the Targaryen line.

My understanding of familial genetics, which I would theorize would also apply to the world of Martin if he does that sort of research, is that generally maladies from the first instance of incest rarely occur. It is only upon multiple cases spanning generations that it occurs. Although I think that research has primarily been directed to invest among cousins, not among siblings...

You may be right.  But then again, Joffrey's madness might not have been genetic, or he might have been that rare occurrence.  Joffrey's siblings seem fine, after all.

[yuma]

  And what yuma added could just be due to incest in general, not on specific qualities of the Targaryen line.

My understanding of familial genetics, which I would theorize would also apply to the world of Martin if he does that sort of research, is that generally maladies from the first instance of incest rarely occur. It is only upon multiple cases spanning generations that it occurs. Although I think that research has primarily been directed to invest among cousins, not among siblings...

You may be right.  But then again, Joffrey's madness might not have been genetic, or he might have been that rare occurrence.  Joffrey's siblings seem fine, after all.

The fact that Joffrey's sibling are fine actually support the theory as most of the time the Targaryen madness doesn't afflict everyone in a family, but rather in rare occurrences.

Viserys seemed to be afflicted while Dany and Rhaegar were fine.
Maegor the Cruel was afflicted while his brother Aenys was also fine.
Aerion was severely afflicted while his brother Aegon was fine.

There are quite a few other examples, but honestly those Targaryen names are hard to remember and I quickly lose track of them.

I think a counter argument to this is the lack of violet eyes in Jamie, Cersie and their children, although there were apparently plenty of Targaryens who did not have those traits (for example the children of the Baratheon-Targaryan romance a few generations back from the main story looked far more Baratheon than Targaryen.

[faust]

I feel like from a storytelling perspective, it doesn't really make sense to have Jaime/Cersei be Targaryens. One thing that drives the Lannisters is the aim to build a dynasty as great as the Targaryens. It would somehow feel wrong if it turns out that they have been Targaryens all along.

[Witherweaver]

I like the Jamie and Cersei theory, especially for storytelling purposes.  It means both Tyrion and Jamie kill their own father, which is cute.  However, I think I remember looking into it and that the timeline didn't work out correctly.  The Mad King's comments about Tywin's wife could be a red herring to make you question Tyrion's father. 

We'll see, though.

[Watno]

I'm not sure if it's because I don't want to like the show anmore, but there were some things in yesterday's episodes that i didn't think made much sense.

The Dorne storyline got even more stupid. (Really, suddenly everyone hates Doran?).
Dany also got out of bing raped pretty easy. Why wouldn't everyone just claim being a Khal's widow? Also, if that tradition is so important, why did noone tell Dany that she was  supposed to become a Dosh Khaleen when Drogo was about to die/died, or tried to enforce this?
Furthermore, they seem to have forgotten that nothing was said about Dany not having children until the sun sets in the east on the show. That line only refered to Drogo's return.

[Witherweaver]

I'm not sure if it's because I don't want to like the show anmore, but there were some things in yesterday's episodes that i didn't think made much sense.

The Dorne storyline got even more stupid. (Really, suddenly everyone hates Doran?).
Dany also got out of bing raped pretty easy. Why wouldn't everyone just claim being a Khal's widow? Also, if that tradition is so important, why did noone tell Dany that she was  supposed to become a Dosh Khaleen when Drogo was about to die/died, or tried to enforce this?
Furthermore, they seem to have forgotten that nothing was said about Dany not having children until the sun sets in the east on the show. That line only refered to Drogo's return.

Doran was unpopular because, externally, he's complacent to the Lannisters.  He was playing political games (more evident in books than in the show), but he couldn't well go and tell everyone this.  The Sand Snakes represented a larger dissatisfaction with Doran's policies.

I had thought the tradition involving a Khal's widow was stated before, when Khal Drogo was ill.  There wasn't a lot to enforce this when Khal Drogo died, though, as most of the riders had abandoned him before this point.  And, when he died, Dany walked into his funeral pyre.  And walked back out with dragons.  So I don't think the remaining Dothraki are going to insist she go on and kill herself after that.

The words of the 'prophecy' also references Daenrys' inability to have children:

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before

Dany takes this to mean that she is unable to have children; the implication that her conceiving a child is of the same caliber of possibility as the sun rising in the west and setting in the east, the sea going dry, or the mountains blowing in the wind like leaves.  Notably, she could be wrong.  At any rate, this is not an error on the part of the show.  From Dany's PoV (in A Dance with Dragons I think):

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, when the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. Only then would her womb quicken once again...

Also noticeable that, like most of these prophecies, the meaning need not be literal, and there are lots of things that could meet these conditions symbolically. 

[2.71828.....]

I'm not sure if it's because I don't want to like the show anmore, but there were some things in yesterday's episodes that i didn't think made much sense.

The Dorne storyline got even more stupid. (Really, suddenly everyone hates Doran?).
Dany also got out of bing raped pretty easy. Why wouldn't everyone just claim being a Khal's widow? Also, if that tradition is so important, why did noone tell Dany that she was  supposed to become a Dosh Khaleen when Drogo was about to die/died, or tried to enforce this?
Furthermore, they seem to have forgotten that nothing was said about Dany not having children until the sun sets in the east on the show. That line only refered to Drogo's return.

I don't know about the show, but Dany was very aware of the tradition that she was to become a Dosh Khaleen when Drogo died in the books. I can't remember exactly, but pretty certain in the book leading up to the pyre that she was fearful that her riders would force her there, which is one reason why she took such extreme measures in giving the gifts to her blood riders  (and also why they were hesitant in accepting them), and the only reason she wasn't forced to go was dragons after that funeral pyre when she proved herself as khaleesi.

[Watno]

Doran was unpopular because, externally, he's complacent to the Lannisters.  He was playing political games (more evident in books than in the show), but he couldn't well go and tell everyone this.  The Sand Snakes represented a larger dissatisfaction with Doran's policies.

I don't remember anyone except the Sandsnakes hating on Doran last season, they snuck into the palace and hid from the guards trying to kill Myrcella. If like all Dornish people where on their side, that would have been a lot easier.

Also there's no evidence of the Doran from the show having any plans. He's just a stupid character.

I had thought the tradition involving a Khal's widow was stated before, when Khal Drogo was ill.  There wasn't a lot to enforce this when Khal Drogo died, though, as most of the riders had abandoned him before this point.  And, when he died, Dany walked into his funeral pyre.  And walked back out with dragons.  So I don't think the remaining Dothraki are going to insist she go on and kill herself after that.

Well, if this is an important tradition, they wouldn't just leave the wife of the dying Khal.

The words of the 'prophecy' also references Daenrys' inability to have children:

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before

The womb part isn't mentioned in the show, it's only in the books.

[Witherweaver]

Doran was unpopular because, externally, he's complacent to the Lannisters.  He was playing political games (more evident in books than in the show), but he couldn't well go and tell everyone this.  The Sand Snakes represented a larger dissatisfaction with Doran's policies.

I don't remember anyone except the Sandsnakes hating on Doran last season, they snuck into the palace and hid from the guards trying to kill Myrcella. If like all Dornish people where on their side, that would have been a lot easier.

Also there's no evidence of the Doran from the show having any plans. He's just a stupid character.

I'm not sure why this is necessary.  I mean, the Dorne story line gets abrupted pretty hard (and maybe even ends up in a different spot, depending on whether the next book changes the way things are going or not), so a lot of development is missed out.  They could have maybe added some shots indicating an unsettled Dorn population or bring it up in dialogue before, but.. it was just brought up now.  So what's the problem?  I personally wouldn't mind the show to go through all the details, but it's a pretty big adaptation and they have to make cuts.

I would have liked to have seen a lot more from Dorne.  Though a lot of people didn't like that subplot of the books. 

I had thought the tradition involving a Khal's widow was stated before, when Khal Drogo was ill.  There wasn't a lot to enforce this when Khal Drogo died, though, as most of the riders had abandoned him before this point.  And, when he died, Dany walked into his funeral pyre.  And walked back out with dragons.  So I don't think the remaining Dothraki are going to insist she go on and kill herself after that.

Well, if this is an important tradition, they wouldn't just leave the wife of the dying Khal.

Didn't they leave after the blood magic?  Some wanted to kill her, and Jorah defended her.   

The words of the 'prophecy' also references Daenrys' inability to have children:

When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east, When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before

The womb part isn't mentioned in the show, it's only in the books.

The show never mentioned it?  Weird.

[Watno]

I'm not sure why this is necessary.  I mean, the Dorne story line gets abrupted pretty hard (and maybe even ends up in a different spot, depending on whether the next book changes the way things are going or not), so a lot of development is missed out.  They could have maybe added some shots indicating an unsettled Dorn population or bring it up in dialogue before, but.. it was just brought up now.  So what's the problem?  I personally wouldn't mind the show to go through all the details, but it's a pretty big adaptation and they have to make cuts.

I would have liked to have seen a lot more from Dorne.  Though a lot of people didn't like that subplot of the books. 

Nearly the whole population of Dorne being against Doran is inconsistent with what happened last season.

I had thought the tradition involving a Khal's widow was stated before, when Khal Drogo was ill.  There wasn't a lot to enforce this when Khal Drogo died, though, as most of the riders had abandoned him before this point.  And, when he died, Dany walked into his funeral pyre.  And walked back out with dragons.  So I don't think the remaining Dothraki are going to insist she go on and kill herself after that.

Well, if this is an important tradition, they wouldn't just leave the wife of the dying Khal.

Didn't they leave after the blood magic?  Some wanted to kill her, and Jorah defended her.   

So killing her is ok but rape isn't?

[Witherweaver]

I'm not sure why this is necessary.  I mean, the Dorne story line gets abrupted pretty hard (and maybe even ends up in a different spot, depending on whether the next book changes the way things are going or not), so a lot of development is missed out.  They could have maybe added some shots indicating an unsettled Dorn population or bring it up in dialogue before, but.. it was just brought up now.  So what's the problem?  I personally wouldn't mind the show to go through all the details, but it's a pretty big adaptation and they have to make cuts.

I would have liked to have seen a lot more from Dorne.  Though a lot of people didn't like that subplot of the books. 

Nearly the whole population of Dorne being against Doran is inconsistent with what happened last season.

I don't think the vast majority of the popularity of Dorne is not in support of Doran, but there is significant unsettlement.  But I don't see why it's a problem.  Because the guards were following Doran before? They are obviously going to continue following his orders until some point.  Or maybe a smaller group of them was positioned into the water gardens or wherever they were by co-conspirators.  I mean, a lot more could have been done here.  But it didn't have to be done.

I had thought the tradition involving a Khal's widow was stated before, when Khal Drogo was ill.  There wasn't a lot to enforce this when Khal Drogo died, though, as most of the riders had abandoned him before this point.  And, when he died, Dany walked into his funeral pyre.  And walked back out with dragons.  So I don't think the remaining Dothraki are going to insist she go on and kill herself after that.

Well, if this is an important tradition, they wouldn't just leave the wife of the dying Khal.

Didn't they leave after the blood magic?  Some wanted to kill her, and Jorah defended her.   

So killing her is ok but rape isn't?

It is known.

[Kuildeous]

It's hard to get into the mindset of the ruled people in Game of Thrones (or any fantasy setting). There is a fierce loyalty to the family name. Ramsey is in danger of losing Winterfell unless he can pop a seed in Sansa Stark, even though she's the weakest Stark (though as an aside, I'm hoping to see some serious growth in her now as she possibly shows the same traits as her mother). So Doran has the loyalty of an entire nation even though maybe they aren't satisfied with what he's doing. But he's the king, so they just accept it.

I found the episode a little dull and slow, but I think that makes sense for episode 1. You have to get the audience back up to speed. I was able to watch the previous episode. Man, I forgot so much, and watching that episode helped me get back on track. So hopefully the subsequent episodes will pick up steam.

So book fans and series fans are all on the same page now, right? The series is now into unwritten territory? I read someone complain that it's going to lose the richness of Martin's work. I don't know about that. These writers have immersed themselves into his works. They can probably keep the momentum going. I just hope they have the balls to write in that Jon Snow—having been reanimated by the Red Woman's dark magic—mindlessly kills Gilly and the baby and then comes to his senses to mourn their loss just as Sam vows vengeance and attacks only to fall on Jon's sword so that Jon is super emo'd. I mean, it could happen. That would be so heartbreaking, so it has to happen.

[Witherweaver]

So book fans and series fans are all on the same page now, right? The series is now into unwritten territory? I read someone complain that it's going to lose the richness of Martin's work. I don't know about that. These writers have immersed themselves into his works. They can probably keep the momentum going. I just hope they have the balls to write in that Jon Snow—having been reanimated by the Red Woman's dark magic—mindlessly kills Gilly and the baby and then comes to his senses to mourn their loss just as Sam vows vengeance and attacks only to fall on Jon's sword so that Jon is super emo'd. I mean, it could happen. That would be so heartbreaking, so it has to happen.

Mostly.  There are story lines that have been moved around, which happened earlier in the book and we will still see in the show.  (Specifically, Sam has already reached Oldtown, and some stuff that will be happening involving the Iron Islands happened far earlier in the books.  Various other stuff seems to have been dropped, and some things look like they may be refactored.)

At any rate, I'm excited that what I'm watching is basically new territory. 

[eHalcyon]

Irony: "Fuck everyone who isn't us." -- Jaime Lannister to Cersei.

Dorne (with book spoilers): Very surprised by this development.  Not sure whether this is the show's own thread now, or whether this is to come in the books as well.  I am disappointed for now, because I thought Doran's scheming was really interesting in the books and all of that might have just been excised from the show at this point.  That's a pretty big deal, considering the major plot points that were happening by his hand.  I guess things he had secretly put into motion could crop up now, spiralling out of control without his hand to guide them.

Dorne (with less important book spoilers): I am also highly disappointed that Areo Hotah was so easy to take down.  I guess it was done in the interest of time, but I remember his book counterpart being far more attentive to possible trouble *and* a real threat besides.  I don't think he would have left his back exposed to a Sand Snake.

Mostly.  There are story lines that have been moved around, which happened earlier in the book and we will still see in the show.  (Specifically, Sam has already reached Oldtown, and some stuff that will be happening involving the Iron Islands happened far earlier in the books.  Various other stuff seems to have been dropped, and some things look like they may be refactored.)

At any rate, I'm excited that what I'm watching is basically new territory.

Another big one is Arya's storyline.  Not much of a spoiler, but the blindness plot happened a little earlier in the book (before her first assassination assignment).  Some other details of Arya's plot are shuffled and modified as well, though the major points are still there.